Author Topic: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th  (Read 24199 times)

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Offline nctnico

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #25 on: April 09, 2023, 10:49:54 pm »
There has been way too much focus on CO2 -which doesn't kill people at all and certainly not short term- and the toxic pollution has been forgotten. At least the the NL the government has stopped subsidising burning bio-mass in power plants (which also causes massive air pollution).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #26 on: April 10, 2023, 02:07:49 am »
And then there is California's last nuclear plant, Diablo Canyon, which provides 15% of California's energy needs scheduled to be shut own in 2024 and 2025.

But wait!  We've already had rolling blackouts (2020) and with electric cars coming along, demand is going to increase.

So, the feds are willing to give PG&E a $1.1B infusion to keep the plant running for another 5 years and the State is willing to lend PG&E $1.4B to not do the work of shutting it down.  Pretty cool!  Don't spend money already allocated for closure and slurp up money for not doing the job.

https://www.ksby.com/news/local-news/pg-e-to-receive-1-1-billion-in-federal-funds-for-nuclear-power-plant-operations
https://www.latimes.com/business/story/2022-08-12/california-could-lend-pg-e-1-4-billion-to-save-the-diablo-canyon-nuclear-plant

We came to our senses just in time.  A lot of our energy comes from the Pacific Northwest and one day they won't have any to give.  The other big source is Palo Verde Nuclear Power Plant in Arizona.  The plant is partially owned by California utilities but the people of Arizona want it closed down regardless of the shortages in California.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palo_Verde_Nuclear_Generating_Station
https://www.maricopa.gov/1002/PVGS
 

Offline I wanted a rude username

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2023, 02:57:58 am »
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #28 on: April 10, 2023, 04:26:29 am »
And then there is California's last nuclear plant, Diablo Canyon, which provides 15% of California's energy needs scheduled to be shut own in 2024 and 2025.

But wait!  We've already had rolling blackouts (2020) and with electric cars coming along, demand is going to increase.

California reminds me of a train that is speeding toward an unfinished section of track, it's going to be a spectacular wreck.

A friend of mine works for an unrelated branch of the government of CA and from what she has told me about day to day happenings no matter how bad you think it is, it's even more disjointed and dysfunctional than you'd think.

Electric cars are cool but the electricity has to come from somewhere and the rolling blackouts suggest that piling massive new loads on the grid is not a wise idea.
 

Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #29 on: April 10, 2023, 04:39:16 am »
Which reminds me of this quote from Dijkstra :
Quote
"Object-oriented programming is an exceptionally bad idea which could only have originated in California."
;D
 

Offline jonovid

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #30 on: April 10, 2023, 08:45:10 am »
from 1950s & onward Europe's NATO then Bilderberg in the US.
to keep Germany down, keep Russia out & keep the US in Europe.
tell me if I am wrong.
Hobbyist with a basic knowledge of electronics
 

Offline iMo

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #31 on: April 10, 2023, 09:15:25 am »
Germany will (it does already) buy cheap electricity from other EU countries, who are building up their nuclear power plants - ie. in central Europe - Poland, Czechia, Slovakia, Hungary, and perhaps others. I think the major concern in Germany is the storing of used nuclear material/waste. Nobody there wants to have that storage in their backyard..
Readers discretion is advised..
 

Offline BravoV

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #32 on: April 10, 2023, 09:38:31 am »
from 1950s & onward Europe's NATO then Bilderberg in the US.
to keep Germany down, keep Russia out & keep the US in Europe.
tell me if I am wrong.

Not wrong, but few minor corrections ...

... to keep Germany subdued, not totally down as US needs to milk them on weaponry for US MIC (moar F35s  stealth sub-marine >:D ), and keep Russia out & keep the US reign over all those EU cannon fodders & slaves ... and be thankful for US on bombing German's owned gas pipe infrastructure and "instructed" to blame on Russia ...  :-DD

Yep, sad and pathetic.  :palm:
 
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #33 on: April 10, 2023, 09:55:57 am »
I don't think we are dealing with this energy transition the most efficient way possible.
 
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #34 on: April 10, 2023, 10:15:52 am »
I don't think we are dealing with this energy transition the most efficient way possible.

Its by design, all those chaos implemented for the sake of "fake" tree hugging religion.  :palm:

Do you think those green movements, anti cow farts stuff  :-DD , Greta Thunberg thingy with fake religion and etc, are pure goodness for mankind ?

Without a nasty and hidden political agenda behind it driven by strong dark political force, then I have a bridge to sell you.

Since you're from Holland, just want to say its great to hear a good thing that is happening there in Holland, on the farmer's political movement, wish they do not get sabotaged or harmed by those evil, you know who.

Offline m k

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #35 on: April 10, 2023, 11:27:51 am »
Local news, [not Sako] can't boost ammunition production, TikTok is using all electricity.

Here nuclear plant area must have lower background radiation than background.

One must wonder how much City Greens have been without energy.

E,
negation.
« Last Edit: April 13, 2023, 09:34:45 am by m k »
Advance-Aneng-Appa-AVO-Beckman-Danbridge-Data Tech-Fluke-General Radio-H. W. Sullivan-Heathkit-HP-Kaise-Kyoritsu-Leeds & Northrup-Mastech-OR-X-REO-Simpson-Sinclair-Tektronix-Tokyo Rikosha-Topward-Triplett-Tritron-YFE
(plus lesser brands from the work shop of the world)
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #36 on: April 10, 2023, 12:22:49 pm »
I don't think we are dealing with this energy transition the most efficient way possible.
Indeed. If only Greenpeace et all didn't preach doom over nuclear, we would not have this energy crisis and CO2 problem in Europe. The French have been very clever with all their nuclear power plants (except for scheduling maintenance for half of the power plants at the same time).

Local news, Sako can't boost ammunition production, TikTok is using all electricity.
Just to those that don't know yet: I prefer funny cat videos over bullets  :-DD
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 12:24:44 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #37 on: April 10, 2023, 05:38:16 pm »
Indeed. If only Greenpeace et all didn't preach doom over nuclear, we would not have this energy crisis and CO2 problem in Europe. The French have been very clever with all their nuclear power plants (except for scheduling maintenance for half of the power plants at the same time).

We would have been able to replace a lot of older plants with modern much safer and more efficient nuclear plants that produce less waste and have less chance of an accident.
 
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Offline Norbert

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #38 on: April 10, 2023, 06:26:48 pm »
  ›nuclear plants‹  …  ›less chance of an accident‹

Those  two terms really shouldn't be put in the same sentence.  8)

OTOH, I'm old, what do I care…
 

Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #39 on: April 10, 2023, 06:29:13 pm »
Building new nuclear power plants makes relatively limited sense.  Currently in many places the costs for wind-power or PV is considerably lower than for new nuclear. Even considering the need for some (e.g. 25%) storage new nuclear is hardly competative.
When calling for newer, safer designs this would likely add some 10-30 years of additional testing and developement with a somewhat uncertain result. Even build just new units of the old designs takes quite some time (e.g. 5-10 years) and the capacities to build new ones are limited.  The usual PWR build in Europe need very large steel forging parts. AFAIK only a single plant in Japan can make these and the capacitiy is quite limited.  Unless they build a new forge they may be faster with nuclear fusion than with getting a significant build up of new fission reactors.

Even if they would now want to extend the life-time for the few remaining German reactors, it would now take quite some time for a major revision and maininance and also to get new fuel. So they would be down for 1-2 years anyway. In hind-sight it may have been better to keep the reactors running for longer, but that decision point was some 5-10 years ago. All plans are made to shut them down. Already the last extension was only with reduced power, as the fuel was essentially used up.
Germany had to bring back some old coal power-plants last year. But this was not so much because of shutting down the German reactors, but because quite a lot of the French reactors were down for lack of cooling water and delayed maintainance.

I would consider calling for building new reactors now as a bad idea - it comes with a risk, too late and at high (hardly competative) costs. 
Nuclear on a large scale comes with 3 additional problems: 
1) When not running the reactors 24/7, but shut down in times of low demand, the already high costs additionally go up.  A limited power (like 25%) to run near 24/7 is not such an issue, but this still leaves a large part to come from other source.
2) Having many reactors of the same / similar type is a risky situation. The safety concepts usually call a prompt shut down if a problem with the design is found (e.g. like with the BWRs in Fukushima). Taking safety serious may than cause a black out. So one has to choose between safe or dependable. Given the hard choices and reaction after Fukushima (delaying safety upgrades to keep the reacrtor running) one can not really trust the promissed safety.
3) For a world wide large scale expansion of nuclear power the uranium reserves get critical and the fuel would get more expensive. It would at least need reprocessing of used fuel and this did not work out economically.
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #40 on: April 10, 2023, 06:36:07 pm »
... have less chance of an accident.

maybe I don't know English but I think that should be risk not chance...
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #41 on: April 10, 2023, 07:51:07 pm »
Building new nuclear power plants makes relatively limited sense.  Currently in many places the costs for wind-power or PV is considerably lower than for new nuclear. Even considering the need for some (e.g. 25%) storage new nuclear is hardly competative.
When calling for newer, safer designs this would likely add some 10-30 years of additional testing and developement with a somewhat uncertain result. Even build just new units of the old designs takes quite some time (e.g. 5-10 years) and the capacities to build new ones are limited.  The usual PWR build in Europe need very large steel forging parts. AFAIK only a single plant in Japan can make these and the capacitiy is quite limited.  Unless they build a new forge they may be faster with nuclear fusion than with getting a significant build up of new fission reactors.

Even if they would now want to extend the life-time for the few remaining German reactors, it would now take quite some time for a major revision and maininance and also to get new fuel. So they would be down for 1-2 years anyway. In hind-sight it may have been better to keep the reactors running for longer, but that decision point was some 5-10 years ago. All plans are made to shut them down. Already the last extension was only with reduced power, as the fuel was essentially used up.
Germany had to bring back some old coal power-plants last year. But this was not so much because of shutting down the German reactors, but because quite a lot of the French reactors were down for lack of cooling water and delayed maintainance.

I would consider calling for building new reactors now as a bad idea - it comes with a risk, too late and at high (hardly competative) costs. 
Nuclear on a large scale comes with 3 additional problems: 
1) When not running the reactors 24/7, but shut down in times of low demand, the already high costs additionally go up.  A limited power (like 25%) to run near 24/7 is not such an issue, but this still leaves a large part to come from other source.
2) Having many reactors of the same / similar type is a risky situation. The safety concepts usually call a prompt shut down if a problem with the design is found (e.g. like with the BWRs in Fukushima). Taking safety serious may than cause a black out. So one has to choose between safe or dependable. Given the hard choices and reaction after Fukushima (delaying safety upgrades to keep the reacrtor running) one can not really trust the promissed safety.
3) For a world wide large scale expansion of nuclear power the uranium reserves get critical and the fuel would get more expensive. It would at least need reprocessing of used fuel and this did not work out economically.
This is such a classic example of German indocrination. Literally none of these points are true, yet majority of people there - who should know better one would think - for some reason believe it...
 
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Offline james_s

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #42 on: April 10, 2023, 07:59:45 pm »
  ›nuclear plants‹  …  ›less chance of an accident‹

Those  two terms really shouldn't be put in the same sentence.  8)

OTOH, I'm old, what do I care…

Absolutely everything we do has a non-zero chance of something negative happening. Every aspect of life is a numbers game, you weight the risks, you take your chances. Any one of us could drop dead this afternoon, an extinction level asteroid collision could occur tomorrow, you never know.
 
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Offline nightfire

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #43 on: April 10, 2023, 07:59:57 pm »
To put things in a technical perspective:
The german nuclear plants are also somewhat old, and as the last date of operations has been determined politically, the operating companies very probably had some closer look at the nuclear fuel they are using.
Means: the way they operate, the nuclear power rods detoriate slowly, until at a certain point when they do only give a very reduced power and have to be regenerated, so the reactor core has to be refilled with fresh rods.
So very probably the operators would have made good use of that remaining fuel inside the core so that one cannot simply let those plants run longer, they would have to be replenished with fresh fuel and according maintenance work.

Regarding the  political aspects in germany: Yes, there is a certain awareness what nuclear desasters can do. I myself remember when I was little the Chernobyl accident, where we all had to stay at home and not go outside due to possible contamination via air from Ukraine. Some poltical pressure from certain political parties also is built into their agenda, so this topic stays quite high on the list.
Frankly, I agree with the stance that the actually existing nuclear power plants are pressurized water reactor or scrubber reactor, so they have inherent security risks in case of danger.
This is partly due to the military in the cold war, that wanted reactor types that could provide them with material for bombs. Other types of reactor (Thorium types) are probably way less dangerous in case of an accident.

Also: The current situation in Ukraine has brought to attention that a country is only really sovereign, when every part of vital infrastructure is available on own soil. Regarding nuclear power, this is questionable, as resources like manufacturing of the fuel rods and the rework of them is scattered throughout europe.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #44 on: April 10, 2023, 08:02:20 pm »
... have less chance of an accident.

maybe I don't know English but I think that should be risk not chance...

Chance and risk are roughly interchangeable in that context. Lower risk == less chance of something bad happening.
 
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Offline daqqTopic starter

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #45 on: April 10, 2023, 08:03:29 pm »
Building new nuclear power plants makes relatively limited sense.  Currently in many places the costs for wind-power or PV is considerably lower than for new nuclear. Even considering the need for some (e.g. 25%) storage new nuclear is hardly competative.
...
Germany had to bring back some old coal power-plants last year. But this was not so much because of shutting down the German reactors, but because quite a lot of the French reactors were down for lack of cooling water and delayed maintainance.
So, nuclear is so uncompetitive that it makes more sense for France to sell lots of nuclear power to countries, who pretend to be green while opening up new coal mines and hiss enthusiastically at nuclear powered countries.

As to the deployment, see: https://radiyozh.substack.com/p/how-long-does-it-take-to-build-a-nuclear-reactor-c2a0c6b29116 . Yeah, we can't have new ones tomorrow, but we can have them in a reasonable time frame.
Even assuming your assumptions that only Japan is capable of creating new reactors was true (which it is simply not), then the solution is not saying "Oh bother" and proclaiming it impossible, the solution is for the EU to actually commit to something. And I mean really commit. Can you honestly say that a quicker buildup would be inconceivable?

As to waiting for for fusion, well, I'm all for researching it, but not at the expense of advancing nuclear. And certainly not waiting for it to become actually usable. When it's actually here and usable and the fuel issues are solved, sure, go for it. Until then we have something that works.
Also, large scale fusion (assuming we crack the issues with, pretty much everything, fuel included) will suffer from a number of the same problems as conventional nuclear. Not all of them, but it wouldn't be a magic solution.

I would consider calling for building new reactors now as a bad idea - it comes with a risk, too late and at high (hardly competative) costs. 

2) Having many reactors of the same / similar type is a risky situation. The safety concepts usually call a prompt shut down if a problem with the design is found (e.g. like with the BWRs in Fukushima). Taking safety serious may than cause a black out. So one has to choose between safe or dependable. Given the hard choices and reaction after Fukushima (delaying safety upgrades to keep the reacrtor running) one can not really trust the promissed safety.
3) For a world wide large scale expansion of nuclear power the uranium reserves get critical and the fuel would get more expensive. It would at least need reprocessing of used fuel and this did not work out economically.
A randomly fluctuating power supply in a continent wide grid without some stable power generation can also lead to blackouts. As to trusting promised safety, I actually trust them.

As to the fuel, you mentioned that it's pointless to wait for the new types of reactors - the reactors that could use more types of fuel or use the existing stuff far more efficiently. The theoretical concepts and practical proof-of-concepts actually exist, but yeah, lets wait for fusion, which has been just 20 years away for the last 60 years, because by George, we shall crack it this decade!

edit:
Sorry, need to add:
So they would be down for 1-2 years anyway. In hind-sight it may have been better to keep the reactors running for longer, but that decision point was some 5-10 years ago. All plans are made to shut them down.
...you do know how plans work, right? They can be cancelled or amended based on changes to the situation. Just because someone makes a plan to commit suicide and buys the rope, doesn't mean they need to get up on the chair.

What you are describing is a bureaucratic inconvenience rather than a physical problem. Yes, at this point it would be harder to continue to have them operating, but extremely far from impossible and it would be definitely easier than to dismantle the whole thing.

But yeah, please, continue to virtue signal and do continue with your prolonged twitch reaction to Fukushima.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 08:13:35 pm by daqq »
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Online SiliconWizard

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #46 on: April 10, 2023, 08:19:06 pm »
I don't think we are dealing with this energy transition the most efficient way possible.

No kidding? But it's not the goal, as some have pointed out.
 

Offline asmi

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #47 on: April 10, 2023, 08:33:00 pm »
As to the fuel, you mentioned that it's pointless to wait for the new types of reactors - the reactors that could use more types of fuel or use the existing stuff far more efficiently. The theoretical concepts and practical proof-of-concepts actually exist, but yeah, lets wait for fusion, which has been just 20 years away for the last 60 years, because by George, we shall crack it this decade!
Fast breeders are known for decades now, and in some let's just say more nuclear-advanced countries are already used commercially. They can operate on a nuclear waste as a fuel, killing two birds with one stone - using up piles of nuclear waste accumulated all over the world, and creating essentially free energy at the same time! Due to all that nuclear hysteria Germany has fallen far behind in the nuclear tech. But the future of humanity is in nuclear energy, whether some people like it or not, as no other power source can provide enough energy for our ever-expanding needs.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2023, 08:50:38 pm by asmi »
 
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Offline langwadt

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #48 on: April 10, 2023, 08:35:20 pm »
... have less chance of an accident.

maybe I don't know English but I think that should be risk not chance...

Chance and risk are roughly interchangeable in that context. Lower risk == less chance of something bad happening.

In my mind when it is the probability of something bad happening it is a risk, not a chance

you wouldn't say, those exposed wires are a safety chance

 

Offline langwadt

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Re: Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th
« Reply #49 on: April 10, 2023, 08:39:04 pm »
As to the fuel, you mentioned that it's pointless to wait for the new types of reactors - the reactors that could use more types of fuel or use the existing stuff far more efficiently. The theoretical concepts and practical proof-of-concepts actually exist, but yeah, lets wait for fusion, which has been just 20 years away for the last 60 years, because by George, we shall crack it this decade!
Fast breeders are known for decades now, and in some let's just say more nuclear-advanced countries are already used commercially. They can operate on a nuclear waste as a fuel, killing two birds with one stone - using up piles of nuclear waste accumulated all over the world, and creating essentially free energy at the same time! Due to all that nuclear hysteria Germany has falled far behind in the nuclear tech. But the future of humanity is in nuclear energy, whether some people like it or not, as no other power source can provide enough energy for our ever-expanding needs.


and if coal,gas,oil, is cheaper there are plenty of poor countries that will burn it for us
 


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