General > General Technical Chat

Germany shutting down last nuclear power plants on April 15th

<< < (15/56) > >>

Siwastaja:

--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 11, 2023, 04:36:23 pm ---Besides I really can't understand, why this few GW needs to be subsituted so immediately with coal, it is about 5% of Germany's need so not so systemrelevant.

--- End quote ---

Power systems are like that. If you have more consumption than production, the whole grid collapses, so you can't just cut 5%, or even 0.5% of production, you need to replace it with something else; or make customers somehow cut down their consumption. Germany has a lot of heavy industry which can't be turned off. 5% sounds like a small number but it's the difference between life and death (for the industries).

Neutrion:
But Germany is not an island, there are much bigger fluctuations with the neighbours because of the renewables. Compared to that, it is almost peanuts. And coal, especially with older power plants will not help either with that. 
So I would think a short period with higher duty cycle on gas power plants until having more import from France, and than building power to gas would be a way more enviromentfriendly solution.

But of course if really not much extra cost or time involved reloading the nuclear plants would be the best but I am still not sure about the technical feasibility, see my questions above.

rf-messkopf:

--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 11, 2023, 04:36:23 pm ---But I mean with the needed maintenance for the few years extra running time. Because for me it is not clear wheter this is a pure political decision, and you only had to change the fuel, or it is such an enormous cost or time issue which makes it uncompetitive with other solutions.

--- End quote ---

That's really a question for the utilities whether they would be happy to run the plants for another year, and if they could market the energy such that they would see a chance of a return on necessary investments. I don't know, I'm not their bean counter.

And the permission to generate electricity ends for the three remaining plants on April 15 as per the German Atomic Energy Act. This was decided by parliament, which is pretty much the definition of a political decision.


--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 11, 2023, 04:36:23 pm ---Besides I really can't understand, why this few GW needs to be subsituted so immediately with coal, it is about 5% of Germany's need so not so systemrelevant.

--- End quote ---

Again, a political decision to weigh the continuation of NPP operation against the potential risk of a shortage in energy supply, and not something I can say much about. The margins weren't too generous during winter, hopefully next year will be better. Besides that, this statement is certainly true:


--- Quote from: Siwastaja on April 11, 2023, 05:06:14 pm ---Power systems are like that. If you have more consumption than production, the whole grid collapses, so you can't just cut 5%, or even 0.5% of production, you need to replace it with something else; or make customers somehow cut down their consumption. Germany has a lot of heavy industry which can't be turned off. 5% sounds like a small number but it's the difference between life and death (for the industries).

--- End quote ---

langwadt:

--- Quote from: Siwastaja on April 11, 2023, 04:06:15 pm ---These plants are designed to operate safely for much more than half a century. It's not that extending the operational life by "a few years" is any problem. It's extension after extension after extension after extension which gradually becomes a problem. AFAIK, this practice is being critiqued in the USA.

--- End quote ---

but if checks, maintenance, etc. have been planned to the deadline and personnel already moved on I suspect it is not a quick or small task to do

Kleinstein:

--- Quote from: Neutrion on April 11, 2023, 03:52:10 pm ---And how much outage would mean the refuelling? If the aim is to make it work for another 1-2 years?  Would the costs, risk or time to do it enormus?

And what if that decision had been made immediately after the government got the results of the studies regarding the possible enlenghtening of the usage of the plants?

If there would be a political will, could it be made economically feasible in a timeframe and for costs that would beat power to gas initiatives (or maybe renewables)during the same time period?

--- End quote ---
Refueling for 1-2 years would not make much sense. Usually the fuel is in the reactor for some 3-4 years with exchanging something like 1/3 every 12-18 months or so. So if they would order new fuel it would be more like for 3-4 years at least - ideally longer to have a mix of old and new rods as the reactors are planed to work with. They may keep a little of the old fuel, but likely not much as the really run it to the end with not much juice left. The unusual fuel mix may need extra certification.

The other point is that the reactors are over-due for a major revision / inspection. They are currently running on extensions/exceptions from the normal rules. So not just the normal short outage to change the fuel, but more like 6 months or langer to check and replace parts that wear-out and upgrade to current standards where needed. A point here is that the replacement parts are no longer planed for and possibly even the machines / molds to make them may no longer be availabe, as they did not plan to ever do this revision anymore. Chances are the mechanics origianlly trained for this job also have a new job. With short notice the revision would likely take longer than normal. So the time (1-2 years) to order an manufacture new fuel may not even be the limiting factor. With the extra effort if would likely not make much sense to restart for only 1 fuel load.

The unlikely scenario to extend the plant life would be some 1-3 years to get them ready for a restart and than maybe 6-10 years, or what ever is left of the planed 40 years of design life. A much shorter time may not be worth the effort.
I don't see a political will for such a longer term commitment and all the regulatory effort for only 3 reactors.

Navigation

[0] Message Index

[#] Next page

[*] Previous page

There was an error while thanking
Thanking...
Go to full version
Powered by SMFPacks Advanced Attachments Uploader Mod