Author Topic: Glitterbomb vs scammers  (Read 4516 times)

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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #25 on: March 23, 2021, 08:03:51 am »

Are you saying "natural justice" is the way to go?  That's the kind of thing that leads people to take the law into their own hands...   I know of instances where miscreants were given rough justice because the "victim" didn't think it worth wasting time making police complaints, and preferred dealing with the problem in a more, ahem, direct fashion...  -  you get enough people thinking like that, and pretty soon you'll have your country ruled by the Mafia, who will take care of injustices in their own inimitable way....

I am saying that if all you do is arrest the first connected person you find and throw them in jail (or more likely community service), you're never going to have any effect on the root cause, the number of victims, or the people actually profiting from the scam/drugs. Doing anything meaningful to address the problem requires harder work, which most likely doesn't focus on finding low-level money mules who have plausible deniability and don't really know what they're even a part of. Poor people in America looking to make an easy buck aren't the problem here.

People's need for vengeance is the root of many problems in society. I don't have any solution for that, but it's not very productive.
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Offline daqq

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #26 on: March 23, 2021, 08:50:32 am »
...who have plausible deniability and don't really know what they're even a part of.

 Poor people in America looking to make an easy buck aren't the problem here.

People's need for vengeance is the root of many problems in society. I don't have any solution for that, but it's not very productive.
Poor people trying to make an easy buck aren't a problem. The problem is when they do so by means of participating in (organised) crime.

As to not knowing what they are a part of... seriously? In what conceivable Universe is someone that dumb that they believe that there is a legitimate reason why someone would want them to:

- Rent a room somewhere where they never actually go aside from receiving a package.
- Receive a package there.
- Give the cash contents of said package to someone else.
- Get hundreds of USD for this service.

No, they know very well that they are a part of something illegal and that at some point of the chain is someone being made to suffer. I'm not saying that they should be executed for said service, but at the very least a few months in prison or a hefty fine should be applied.

And no, the argument "I'm poor so it's okay for me to steal from grannies." is not valid.
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Offline ve7xen

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2021, 09:20:37 am »
Poor people trying to make an easy buck aren't a problem. The problem is when they do so by means of participating in (organised) crime.

The problem is the organized crime. There's no end of poor people trying to make an easy buck, and arresting an endless stream of them for delivering packages is not productive, you will never eliminate the tools of such organizations, at least without devolving into despotism. You need to strike at the head, or take away their means of profit (by protecting victims, for example).

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As to not knowing what they are a part of... seriously? In what conceivable Universe is someone that dumb that they believe that there is a legitimate reason why someone would want them to:

I didn't say that. I said they have plausible deniability, which is generally understood to mean they know what they are doing but evidence to prove it doesn't exist. They don't open the packages. They aren't doing anything illegal aside from under reporting income. Ergo, arresting them probably doesn't even lead to charges, let alone convictions. And even if it did, the person you caught is a disposable tool of the organization and will be easily replaced with another of the aforementioned endless stream.

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No, they know very well that they are a part of something illegal and that at some point of the chain is someone being made to suffer. I'm not saying that they should be executed for said service, but at the very least a few months in prison or a hefty fine should be applied.

Sure, but you will not solve this by arresting yet more poor people and throwing them in prison. Do you want solutions, or vengeance? Arresting low-level couriers isn't, and has never been, a solution to organized crime.

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And no, the argument "I'm poor so it's okay for me to steal from grannies." is not valid.
Of course it's not, but you do get a lot fewer thieves when fewer people are poor. It doesn't make it okay, but if you care about reducing crime and not simply punishing criminals after the crime has occurred, it is a huge factor.
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2021, 02:09:31 pm »
[...]
People's need for vengeance is the root of many problems in society. I don't have any solution for that, but it's not very productive.

It is a part of the human condition...  just like thieving.  So, if you don't think it helps to do anything about low level thieves, you probably don't think it helps to do anything about vengeance either.

I guess your position could be called fatalist?
 

Offline james_s

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2021, 05:21:03 pm »
You don't have to throw them in prison for 10 years, but ignoring low level thieves encourages them because it doesn't take very long for people to realize that there are no consequences to helping themselves to someone else's stuff so they keep doing it, and more people join them. The impact adds up too, maybe it doesn't create a big hardship when someone steals $50 from somebody, but multiply that by the 50-100 or more victims over time and all the ancillary costs like frustration and a feeling of insecurity and pretty soon it's a pretty serious impact to the community. A large enough number of minor crimes can have a cumulative impact as big as a major crime.
 
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Offline SilverSolder

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #30 on: March 23, 2021, 05:48:56 pm »
You don't have to throw them in prison for 10 years, but ignoring low level thieves encourages them because it doesn't take very long for people to realize that there are no consequences to helping themselves to someone else's stuff so they keep doing it, and more people join them. The impact adds up too, maybe it doesn't create a big hardship when someone steals $50 from somebody, but multiply that by the 50-100 or more victims over time and all the ancillary costs like frustration and a feeling of insecurity and pretty soon it's a pretty serious impact to the community. A large enough number of minor crimes can have a cumulative impact as big as a major crime.

Exactly - it is like dealing with weeds sprouting in the garden - you know it is natural, you know they are only doing what they do, but you can't let it go or the whole thing will be overgrown before you know it.

There is no need for disproportionate punishment.  Often a severe talking to works.  If it doesn't work, escalate from there.
 
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Offline aargee

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #31 on: March 24, 2021, 05:56:24 am »
Apart from the moral conflagration that's going on in this thread, I do like the story and technical work to make it happen.
Not easy, not hard, just need to be incentivised.
 
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Offline rsjsouzaTopic starter

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #32 on: March 24, 2021, 11:04:32 am »
You don't have to throw them in prison for 10 years, but ignoring low level thieves encourages them because it doesn't take very long for people to realize that there are no consequences to helping themselves to someone else's stuff so they keep doing it, and more people join them. The impact adds up too, maybe it doesn't create a big hardship when someone steals $50 from somebody, but multiply that by the 50-100 or more victims over time and all the ancillary costs like frustration and a feeling of insecurity and pretty soon it's a pretty serious impact to the community. A large enough number of minor crimes can have a cumulative impact as big as a major crime.

Exactly - it is like dealing with weeds sprouting in the garden - you know it is natural, you know they are only doing what they do, but you can't let it go or the whole thing will be overgrown before you know it.

There is no need for disproportionate punishment.  Often a severe talking to works.  If it doesn't work, escalate from there.
I agree with these points. Coming from a country were enforcement on petty crimes was softened over the course of a decade, I can tell the end game is not pretty. Not only this emboldened criminals but, when it hig a specific ROI threshold, it enabled moving to more profitable businesses (drug trafficking) and better equipment (pistols, machine guns, grenades, etc.). Over the decades, this turned some of the major capital cities hostages of these paramilitary groups.
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Glitterbomb vs scammers
« Reply #33 on: March 24, 2021, 01:02:37 pm »
What about make it legal to bait and trap thieves as long as it is done in a way that it would be unlikely to catch the innocent by mistake? For example, in a fenced off area, have a roll of bare copper wire or tubing that's connected to a high voltage power line in such a way that it's not obvious. Or even a radio jammer that automatically activates if stolen, if it's not already legal to own (but not operate) such a device.

Perhaps a solution to fight drugs and other obviously illegal goods being sold would be to make it legal to sell fakes of such items. Basically crash the market by flooding it with fakes.
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