Goodbye Windows XP

[Homer J Simpson]

A lot of us are probably like mechanics that have 6  old cars around the house.

We have 6 old computers. My QuadCore desktop has been Windows 7 since new but one other desktop and 3 laptops were still on XP Pro.

With April 8th around the corner it was finally time to pull the plug on XP. Amazing it has been in service for 12 years. It still ran great and did all I needed it to do.

My older computers can still run 7 just fine. By the end of the day today all systems will be on 7.

RIP Windows XP. 

Oh, and no thanks on Windows 8.

KT

[TVman]

You can still use WIN/XP but there will no longer be any updates.
Everyone starts ranting right about now....  

[Homer J Simpson]

and that's the issue.

No more security updates.

Their will be a flood hacks and exploits when they are found now.

Security software and firewalls most likely not enough.

[TVman]

and that's the issue.

No more security updates.

Their will be a flood hacks and exploits when they are found now.

Security software and firewalls most likely not enough.

There was A study that shows more people get hacked on win7/8/8.1 than on winxp....

If you want antivuris:http://www.comodo.com/home/internet-security/antivirus.php?track=2738&key5sk1=da5e59c0461c1679bf6695b4ac3ec29913d4867c&key5sk2=2128&key5sk3=1396456199000&key5sk4=2738&key5sk5=1396456205000&key6sk1=comodo&key6sk2=FF353&key6sk3=8&key6sk4=en-us&key6sk5=US&key6sk6=0&key6sk7=Google&key6sk8=10032&key6sk9=1024768&key6sk10=true&key6sk11=ceaf1c1c82d4abad2add8c1f93c8f188bfbfefc3&key6sk12=2034&key7sk1=2&key1sk1=ors&key1sk2=Google&key1sk3=comodo

great software!

[tjb1]

and that's the issue.

No more security updates.

Their will be a flood hacks and exploits when they are found now.

Security software and firewalls most likely not enough.

So use some common sense when visiting websites and downloading things.

[edavid]

and that's the issue.

No more security updates.

Their will be a flood hacks and exploits when they are found now.

Security software and firewalls most likely not enough.

Yes, it's going to be a disaster!  Y2K all over again!

[Homer J Simpson]

Here is another interesting article.

30% of PC's still running XP.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/03/17/end-of-windows-xp-facts/6511243/

[tjb1]

Here is another interesting article.

30% of PC's still running XP.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/2014/03/17/end-of-windows-xp-facts/6511243/

Here is an interesting fact...

General availability - October 25, 2001

[electronics man]

my home computor is still running xp since early 2005

[T3sl4co1l]

I have a sneaking suspicion that M$ won't actually cut off hard, but come back a week after with all the patches for all those zero-day exploits that are about to be unveiled.

It's kind of funny that adoption of Win7+ is slow.  There's not much left to improve on!  XP is kinda sorta the first mainstream commercial "it's got it all" OS.  Every single computer science principle has been integrated: virtualization of memory and devices; SMP support, multitasking, multiuser; even a freaking supercomputer from the 70s or 80s could only dream of the feature set.  Let alone the astonishing support for 3rd party hardware and software.  (Something a supercomputer didn't have to worry about: expansion cards and software from someone other than, say, IBM or Cray -- good luck with that!)

Tim

[G7PSK]

I have put Linux on my computers, works fine for most things, I still have one or two windows programs which at present are on a dual boot but will eventually be run in a virtual machine once I figure out how to make USB's work on a virtual computer.

[edavid]

I have a sneaking suspicion that M$ won't actually cut off hard, but come back a week after with all the patches for all those zero-day exploits that are about to be unveiled.

It's kind of funny that adoption of Win7+ is slow.

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP, but they are quite annoying... Microsoft kept all the same functions, but moved them around and renamed them, requiring relearning where everything is.  It's no problem for a new user, but definitely discouraged people from "upgrading".

[Rigby]

run a network firewall, incoming and outgoing, and be semi-apelike in intelligence with the sites you visit and the software you download and you won't have any issues because of this.

windows 7 truly is a superior operating system to XP, anyway.  I like Win8.1 even more, but I am not foolish enough to say that everyone is with me on that.

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP

"only cosmetic changes."  that is 100% Grade-A bullshit, right there.  you don't know what you're talking about if you stand by that statement.

[Homer J Simpson]

and be semi-apelike in intelligence

I have not heard that one before but I like it.

It will be used at work tomorrow.

[T3sl4co1l]

For sure, the networking model is better in Win7 (seriously, how many times have you clicked on a network folder only to completely and utterly freeze Explorer.exe?), and probably things with security and user management too.  And probably many other things I've used that I can't think of right now.

Curiously, I don't see people screaming, "the sky is falling, get Win7+ now!!!!1", so it's probably not terrifically bad to keep on using XP, given responsible use and support (current updates; firewall at router, computer or both; don't download and run random EXEs, or Office files, or...).  Thoughts?

Tim

[Fraser]

A thought....... XP is so long in the tooth that its vulnerabilities should be pretty well identified. This should not be like an unsupported AV program. Now Win 7 and 8.x are relatively new and there are very likely to be many vulnerabilities that have yet to be discovered. Which OS is more vulnerable at the moment then   

I run XP on stand alone IT that is running non networked test equipment hardware. No reason to replace it as all is operating correctly and XP is suited to the older hardware platforms on which it is running.

When MS shout JUMP....... I say....... S*D OFF.

As for Winodws 8.x ......... I have yet to meet a colleague or friend who gets on with it. In fact I keep being asked how to retrofit Windows 7 to a brand new Win 8.x computer !  Apparently some New Old Stock Dell Win 7 computers are actually selling for more than new Win 8 Dell machines    This is unconfirmed by me though.


Now out of date AV definitions or patching on a mission critical network ..... that is a different matter, and I totally understand an organisation needing to maintain a supported OS and Apps. Accreditation and the associated RMADS require such for a non closed loop network with any form of data transfer capability.

[Rigby]

part of the beauty of this end of life is that little assholes who have exploits that work on fully patched windows XP systems will wait until XP isn't supported anymore to use them.

those exploits probably exist in Vista, Win7, and Win8, but have not been used because of the impending "death" of windows XP security patches, so they'll be unknown to MS.

I predict a few hotfixes coming out for Vista, 7, 8 in the next few weeks.

[SeanB]

I have put Linux on my computers, works fine for most things, I still have one or two windows programs which at present are on a dual boot but will eventually be run in a virtual machine once I figure out how to make USB's work on a virtual computer.

Virtualbox and the addons pack and you are good to go, with USB support that works for everything I tried with it. Of course the Linux side does work better with serial devices, but you can generally get drivers for the XP side easily enough.

[edavid]

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP

"only cosmetic changes."  that is 100% Grade-A bullshit, right there.  you don't know what you're talking about if you stand by that statement.

OK, examples?

[Mr Smiley]

They've had 14 years, and they still couldn't get it secure 

 

[KJDS]

I've just put Win 8.1 on a newish machine, though my trusty XP machine is still the main one for now. I've yet to have any real issues with 8.1, starting to find my way round it without a struggle.

[Rigby]

OK, examples?

http://bit.ly/1pO6uhp

[GreyWoolfe]

I, for one, haven't been screaming that the sky is falling over the end of XP.  I have been giving advice quietly for the past year to consider upgrading.  I ran Win7 on Pentium 4 computers, so if asked, I would have helped in upgrading to Win7.  XP is gone here-4 computers on Win7 and 2 on 8.1.  Micro$oft has been announcing it for a long time and I have offered opinions, but we know what they say about that .  At the end of the day, If no one listened to me and their computer gets hosed and they want me to fix it, I will simply charge them more.

[dexters_lab]

i have a couple of old PCs running XP, a Dell Mini9 netbook and an old desktop.

I am not too worried about security updates, i am always very careful about where i go and what i do online, i also do almost no web browsing on these PCs anyway opting to use a Win7 desktop or Nexus7 tab.

Just because there are no new security updates does not mean you will be hacked within moments

One thing i do wonder though is how XP reactivations are going to be handled, say if you need to install XP either on real hardware or in a virtual environment?

[Fank1]

I only use W 7 on the network.
My real work horse is still X/P and it never gets on a network.
As for Windows 8 it just plain sucks.

[Rigby]

Windows is antique dinosaur-age software that really needs to just die already.

That is probably because your Windows experience stopped growing at Windows XP.  And saying LibreOffice is better than MS Office is absolutely hilarious to me.  As someone who is forced to use both for the same damn things, I can tell you without hesitation that LibreOffice is a steaming puddle of loose stool, and the wind is blowing the stink right into my kitchen window.

Windows is used in a lot of places that you don't know of, I'll bet, though in your circumstances I have no doubt that you'd like to see it leave your life.  I can respect that.  I'd like to see Linux desktop out of my life, and so it is.

I ran Linux full time for years, way back when it was a pain in the ass to do so.  You had to really, really WANT Linux if you were going to run it as a desktop.  I'm talking 1997-1998, here.  I still run it as a desktop from time to time, and I always give it several weeks of use before I decide commit to my opinions.  I have yet to be satisfied at all with any Linux desktop that I didn't literally pour entire weekends of time into to get it right.  I always spent more time on the OS than I did actually getting things done, if I wanted the OS to be anything other than a hindrance.

Linux on servers is a very different beast, but even so, I still prefer FreeBSD over Linux.

On the very rare occasion that I need to make sure a document prints as I intend, I will print it to PDF and send the PDF around.

[Vgkid]

Im just sitting here running Windows Vista, never had that much difficulties with it.
Funnily enough my parents computer ran better on Win-Me than XP.

[tom66]

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP [...]

It's a completely different kernel. It's more like Vista than XP. And it's actually alright. No major complaints here.

[Stonent]

I've just put Win 8.1 on a newish machine, though my trusty XP machine is still the main one for now. I've yet to have any real issues with 8.1, starting to find my way round it without a struggle.

My wife's and my laptops are both about 6 or 7 years old, Core 2 Duo with 2GB ram (mine recently upgraded to 3) and they have the "Designed for Windows XP" stickers on them still and are now happily running Windows 8.1 Update 1. (The update that was visible for a few days)  When you install Classic Shell in Windows 8.1, it's pretty good. To me it feels like it runs even smoother than 7 did on these computers.

[edavid]

OK, examples?

http://bit.ly/1pO6uhp

Just as I thought, you don't know of any significant improvements either.

[edavid]

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP [...]

It's a completely different kernel. It's more like Vista than XP. And it's actually alright. No major complaints here.

Obviously it's not completely different.  Vista had only the most trivial differences from XP.

[Rigby]

You have no idea what you're talking about.

[GeoffS]

My only instance of XP runs under VMware to support a USB connected weather station.
It is way behind on updates but not having network connectivity, that doesn't really matter.
Everything else run Linux

[GEuser]

I really liked XP , had it for years from 98 skipped all the rest in-between , now I really like 7 .

[TMM]

The only advantage of XP is that the install is physically very small. I forget the exact size but i believe it is less than 2GB, possibly even less than 1GB. Something like Windows 7 on the otherhand is pushing 15GB+ on a fresh install and easily bloats out over 20GB after some use.

I really liked XP , had it for years from 98 skipped all the rest in-between , now I really like 7 .

same here.

Windows 7 has only cosmetic changes over Windows XP [...]

It's a completely different kernel. It's more like Vista than XP. And it's actually alright. No major complaints here.

Obviously it's not completely different.  Vista had only the most trivial differences from XP.

That's like saying that a 2014 car has trivial differences to a car from the 1980s because it still has 4 wheels and a steering wheel. Vista was a massive upgrade from Windows XP in terms of how the drivers/audio/peripherals etc work. However they goofed up the user interface big time and it ran dog slow. Windows 7 and 8 have 'trivial' differences from Vista.

[Zbig]

Obviously it's not completely different.  Vista had only the most trivial differences from XP.

  That's the most uninformed, ignorant and plain wrong arbitrary statement I've read in months. Like "had-to-check-if-not-still-1st-of-April" kind of dumb 

[GEuser]

My only instance of XP runs under VMware to support a USB connected weather station.
It is way behind on updates but not having network connectivity, that doesn't really matter.
Everything else run Linux

You used to be able to in the old days send away for a CD , free it was too! it had the latest updates on it and I gather for people that had slow downloads back in the day , I used it one or 2 times when "fast" downloading was at 2.5kb a second and that was all I had for ages out rural .

[nctnico]

and that's the issue.

No more security updates.

Their will be a flood hacks and exploits when they are found now.

Security software and firewalls most likely not enough.

You are completely falling for the FUD Microsoft is spreading. If it where true my computer would be invested with malware. The reality is that I quit installing updates years ago because they break more than they fix. A computer is only at risk if it is connected to internet directly. Nowadays every sane internet provider gives you a router which acts as a firewall.
The biggest risk for a computer is the user who can click a link which install malware. For that you have a virus/malware scanner.

[digsys]

I look after app 100 PCs, most on networks, right the way from the DOS days. They have a good AV (my pref is NODSS) and good firewalls.
All are XP3, and I've only done manual updates every 6-12 months. I've RARELY EVER had a serious problem, and always a user doing
something I tell them NOT to do ie wares etc. I have no need / intention of "upgrading" ... they can try to pry it from my dead limp body.
I also have several machines on Win311, Win98, most on a Network. That's my opinion. YMMV

[T3sl4co1l]

Historical reference for those that don't remember (myself included!):

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

- Presumably, this is aggregated either from w3's viewing stats, or from stats sent to them in some manner.
- Data goes back to 2003 and is split up by OS, not just vendor.
- Just guessing, ME is probably rolled into 98[SE] stats.

Markers:
- Win95 ended 2001
- Win98 ended 2006
- Win2k ended 2010
- Vista ended 2012
- XP ended 2014

- Win2k released 2000
- XP released 2001
- Vista released 2006
- Win7 released 2009

When Win98 ended, it was only 1-2% of online computers.  So who cares.  Period articles give a figure of 70 million machines still using it; probably, few of these were online, which is fine as far as security goes.
When Win2k ended, it was < 1%.
Vista ended with a few still (3-4%), but wasn't very popular anyway.

What's totally unprecedented is, XP is still at 10% or so, and that's just online machines (the average news story is giving it as 30%, which I guess is by machine, not just web views).  And that after 13 years.

Vista, Win7 and Win8 have made a strong impact, with Win7 being dominant online and probably Win8 coming up in the next year or few.

What's ironic is, M$ finally did exactly what everyone wanted them to do: make a robust OS that endures.  And now they're probably losing money on it (I would assume either losses, or dwindling support profits, are the motivation for cutting support).  You can be absolutely sure they won't make that mistake again -- which is all the more reason to keep it with some confidence!

Interesting to think what could happen -- probably won't, but, suppose this: suppose Win7+ were just absolute shit and the XP market share was still 50% and going strong.  And M$ drops support.  Would the [good] hackers create patches for them?  Is it even possible?!  (Of course it's possible, some of the attacks even look like patches; there was a Windows Update exploit, remember!)

Tim

[Rigby]

I look after app 100 PCs, most on networks, right the way from the DOS days. They have a good AV (my pref is NODSS) and good firewalls.
All are XP3, and I've only done manual updates every 6-12 months. I've RARELY EVER had a serious problem, and always a user doing
something I tell them NOT to do ie wares etc. I have no need / intention of "upgrading" ... they can try to pry it from my dead limp body.
I also have several machines on Win311, Win98, most on a Network. That's my opinion. YMMV

You're really kind of doing the admin thing the hard way, then.  Some of the most significant changes in the later windows versions are the remote administration capabilities that have been added/improved.  PowerShell alone is enough of a reason to take a very strong look at Windows, but if you don't look at the later versions, then you simply won't see how much things have improved, and you won't have any understanding as to why people upgrade.

[GEuser]

Historical reference for those that don't remember (myself included!):

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

- Presumably, this is aggregated either from w3's viewing stats, or from stats sent to them in some manner.
- Data goes back to 2003 and is split up by OS, not just vendor.
- Just guessing, ME is probably rolled into 98[SE] stats.

Markers:
- Win95 ended 2001
- Win98 ended 2006
- Win2k ended 2010
- Vista ended 2012
- XP ended 2014

- Win2k released 2000
- XP released 2001
- Vista released 2006
- Win7 released 2009

When Win98 ended, it was only 1-2% of online computers.  So who cares.  Period articles give a figure of 70 million machines still using it; probably, few of these were online, which is fine as far as security goes.
When Win2k ended, it was < 1%.
Vista ended with a few still (3-4%), but wasn't very popular anyway.

What's totally unprecedented is, XP is still at 10% or so, and that's just online machines (the average news story is giving it as 30%, which I guess is by machine, not just web views).  And that after 13 years.

Vista, Win7 and Win8 have made a strong impact, with Win7 being dominant online and probably Win8 coming up in the next year or few.

What's ironic is, M$ finally did exactly what everyone wanted them to do: make a robust OS that endures.  And now they're probably losing money on it (I would assume either losses, or dwindling support profits, are the motivation for cutting support).  You can be absolutely sure they won't make that mistake again -- which is all the more reason to keep it with some confidence!

Interesting to think what could happen -- probably won't, but, suppose this: suppose Win7+ were just absolute shit and the XP market share was still 50% and going strong.  And M$ drops support.  Would the [good] hackers create patches for them?  Is it even possible?!  (Of course it's possible, some of the attacks even look like patches; there was a Windows Update exploit, remember!)

Tim

I found a W95 cd quite some time ago (2 years?) , installed it on a AMD ?? 500mhz I had kicking about at the time that just never made it to the tip yet and after much fiddling about to get it running I was amazed on how clunky it seemed but also amazed on how it was still graphical enough to still look ok , one could certainly still see win98se in it in places , it even had a couple of playable shootemup games in it I recall .

Interesting info in your post !

[nctnico]

IMHO Win2k is still the best Windows MS produced. Not as clunky as NT4 and not as quirky as WinXP. The things that killed Win2k where USB and multimedia support.

[Fagear]

As for the topic - I don't care and I don't understand all this "panic, support ends, heeelp".
Really?
My copies are genuine but I NEVER asked for support from MS.
As for security updates - why the hell I should care? Major improvements were made long time ago, most of the last "updates" were like "oh, well, lets fix some old security bug and add a new small one" - not a big deal. I will not cry if those fantom updates will go away. All the latest times I saw an another update - it was like "hell, again some stupid nothing-doing-bugfix".

I still run Atom-netbook with WinXP SP3 (writing right now from it), one testing PC for old HW with WinXP SP3. Some other half-disassembled computers with XP on them. And I also have main PC with Win7 Pro x64, also genuine.

All my PCs are are equiped with antiviruses and standard Windows firewall. I didn't saw any virus, malware or stange behaviour for many years (not even an alert about it). As an addition almost all my PCs are in network behind a router (with Linux type OS) with NAT enabled and all ports closed from outside. Some of PCs are even not connected to my local network.
And on top of that I have to use some software, that runs only under WinXP and there are no replacements for Win7. Some hardware specific and something else.

So I don't care about and of support, actually I'm happy with no more annoying useless updates. Win98 support ended long time ago and I still sometimes use it.
I just disabled update KB2934207 that helps MS to annoy me with popup about "oh, you are using old obsolete OS, go and give us some money and buy new one!".
All I really want - some type of "service pack 4". If I reinstall WinXP on some of my PCs I want to update it to latest state with one cumulative update, downloaded to my software library.

[digsys]

You're really kind of doing the admin thing the hard way, then.  Some of the most significant changes in the later windows versions are the remote administration capabilities that have been added/improved.  PowerShell alone is enough of a reason to take a very strong look at Windows, but if you don't look at the later versions, then you simply won't see how much things have improved, and you won't have any understanding as to why people upgrade. 

I have one small network that had to switch to Win7 (tax accountant-required by tax office) and a few one offs, so I am quite reasonably
familiar with the new system (against my will :-) ). Their "expert" managed to screw things up for weeks via remote admin. Each time I
went in and sorted it out, the old way, and got my free coffee and chat. NO THANKS, I prefer remote admin OFF. YMMV

[Rigby]

My mileage does vary.  I'm glad to see that you put "expert" in quotes, because those guys are very often dumber than my front door.  They are in no way "experts."

Take the time to see how it's done somewhere with people that know what they're doing.  I think you'll be surprised.

I think, in general, it is very sad to see people perfectly happy with "the old way."  It indicates a complete lack of enthusiasm, to me, and it's a bit saddening.  There's so much EXTREMELY COOL stuff out there; to just say "nah, i'm good" is beyond my comprehension.

If it works for you, though, then go with it, I guess. 

[Zero999]

I still have XP and don't intend to upgrade any time soon, simply because I'm too lazy.

I haven't used a newer version of Windows. At my previous job I used XP and now I'm a technician, working in a lab environment and only use a computer at home.

I'm sure the latest version of Windows has many new features but I just don't see the point. I'll upgrade, when i need a new computer.

[nctnico]

Every Windows version is crappier than the previous one... go figure. Windows7 gets just as slow over time as any Windows version has been done before.

[c4757p]

I think, in general, it is very sad to see people perfectly happy with "the old way."  It indicates a complete lack of enthusiasm, to me, and it's a bit saddening.  There's so much EXTREMELY COOL stuff out there; to just say "nah, i'm good" is beyond my comprehension.

It's sad if somebody isn't enthusiastic about anything, but I think all of us have something we don't give a flying fart about. For me it's computer software...

[Rigby]

Right, but his job is system administration. 

I think it's sad that he's not interested in even looking at better ways to do his job.  Either he's too lazy to look for an easier way, he is not really interested in his job at all, or he really does think that his way is the best way available.

All three options depress me.  I'd find a new job if I was in a rut like that.

[digsys]

Right, but his job is system administration. 
I think it's sad that he's not interested in even looking at better ways to do his job.  Either he's too lazy to look for an easier way, he is not really interested in his job at all, or he really does think that his way is the best way available.
All three options depress me.  I'd find a new job if I was in a rut like that. 

LOL .. PMSL .. You know me SO well :-) Definitely impressed (opposite of depress) :-) ..

[G7PSK]

Historical reference for those that don't remember (myself included!):

http://www.w3schools.com/browsers/browsers_os.asp

- Presumably, this is aggregated either from w3's viewing stats, or from stats sent to them in some manner.
- Data goes back to 2003 and is split up by OS, not just vendor.
- Just guessing, ME is probably rolled into 98[SE] stats.

The reason ME is not listed on those stats. is no computer loaded with it made it on line. I bought a new computer back in the days that came with ME installed, it never ever made it past boot up before I got the BSD. I rang the support line of the seller ( PC World) many many times, It never could be got up and running, they even had me re-install the OS while I was on the phone to them and as the phone line was not a free phone it cot a lot it may even have been a premium line. In the end I returned it to the shop where they told me that as I had re installed the OS they would not refund me but only exchange the computer, I had a long argument with them in the end after threatening going to court they hit on a compromise, they would issue me a new computer which I could then take to the tills and get a refund on, which I did. This was my first ever new computer and the last one ever from PC World.

[nctnico]

Right, but his job is system administration. 

I think it's sad that he's not interested in even looking at better ways to do his job.  Either he's too lazy to look for an easier way, he is not really interested in his job at all, or he really does think that his way is the best way available.

If you have ever been involved in system administration you should know that you really don't want to fix some that is not broken. Besides that moving an entire company to Windows 7 is a major operation which needs man power and budget. For starters you need to test if every software package works and educate the users about the changes in Windows 7.

[Rigby]

Right, but his job is system administration. 

I think it's sad that he's not interested in even looking at better ways to do his job.  Either he's too lazy to look for an easier way, he is not really interested in his job at all, or he really does think that his way is the best way available.

If you have ever been involved in system administration you should know that you really don't want to fix some that is not broken. Besides that moving an entire company to Windows 7 is a major operation which needs man power and budget. For starters you need to test if every software package works and educate the users about the changes in Windows 7.

Yet I've done just that several times, and have been glad at the change each and every time.  there were a few issues, yes, but nothing that I could not get around relatively easily.

Being administrator of a system does not completely explain being scared of new software, hardware, or new situations.  You simply cannot grow as a sysadmin unless you put yourself into situations that you've not been in before.

We're well off-topic, now.  PM me if you want to continue this conversation.  I'm happy to do so, but I am not sure this topic is the place to do it.

[Homer J Simpson]

....and Windows 8 begins to look more like Windows 7.

http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-updates-windows-8-for-desktops-2014-4

[Skimask]

The reason ME is not listed on those stats. is no computer loaded with it made it on line. I bought a new computer back in the days that came with ME installed, it never ever made it past boot up before I got the BSD.

That is odd...and I hear it a lot but I don't know why.
My very first PC got Win95, Win98, Win98SE, and every version, service pack, etc., up to WinME.  Never wiped the drive, just installed the new OS over the old OS, like I said, right up to WinME.  Sure it had hiccups, but no more than I do right now on Win7.  Not saying WinME was perfect.  Far from it.  That machine is still running over on a back bench, using it for 'interface work', when I want to whip something up in VisualBasic to talk to something over a serial port or parallel port for that matter.  And it's still got that annoying sticking menu bug that the Windows 95-ME never did get fixed...annoying as hell.
Skipped over Win2K, right to XP.  Still using that machine, and plan on continuing to use it for programming MCUs, etc.
Both of those machines will see use until they die horrible deaths, but I'd doubt that's going to happen anytime soon.  Spare mobo's, ram, drives, got a couple of everything, including backup images.

[TMM]

Every Windows version is crappier than the previous one... go figure. Windows7 gets just as slow over time as any Windows version has been done before.

PEBKAC. Windows 7 still runs like a dream on a 3 year old install here. Ditto with XP - i only ever needed to reinstall because of upgrading hardware or because the hard drive with the OS installed on it failed.

Whenever a friend/relative asks me to look at their PC because it's running slowly it's one of the following 99% of the time:
-malware installed by the user
-bunch of harmless crapware(tm) installed by the user that spends an eternity launching at OS startup:
   -bloaty/multiple anti-virus/anti-malware programs
   -apps that launch in the system tray at OS startup in order to reduce the time taken from the user clicking the icon to the app being ready. Yes they make that app start faster but they hog RAM and significantly increase OS startup time.
   -updater tray apps (e.g. adobe reader updater, java updater, etc)
   -other unnecessary tray applications (e.g. manufacturer-specific peripheral control panels which are installed with hardware drivers)
Especially with low end PCs that don't have a lot of RAM it's not uncommon to find them with very little or no RAM free at initial startup which causes it have to shuffle the contents between the RAM and the pagefile on the hard drive which is orders of magnitude slower.
-filesystem is badly fragmented
-hardware fault with the hard drive
-other hardware fault, e.g. thermal-throttling CPU

[Rigby]

Every Windows version is crappier than the previous one... go figure. Windows7 gets just as slow over time as any Windows version has been done before.

PEBKAC. Windows 7 still runs like a dream on a 3 year old install here. Ditto with XP - i only ever needed to reinstall because of upgrading hardware or because the hard drive with the OS installed on it failed.

Whenever a friend/relative asks me to look at their PC because it's running slowly it's one of the following 99% of the time:
-malware installed by the user
-bunch of harmless crapware(tm) installed by the user that spends an eternity launching at OS startup:
   -bloaty/multiple anti-virus/anti-malware programs
   -apps that launch in the system tray at OS startup in order to reduce the time taken from the user clicking the icon to the app being ready. Yes they make that app start faster but they hog RAM and significantly increase OS startup time.
   -updater tray apps (e.g. adobe reader updater, java updater, etc)
   -other unnecessary tray applications (e.g. manufacturer-specific peripheral control panels)
Especially with low end PCs that don't have a lot of RAM it's not uncommon to find them with very little or no RAM free at initial startup which causes it have to shuffle the contents between the RAM and the pagefile on the hard drive which is orders of magnitude slower.
-filesystem is badly fragmented
-hardware fault with the hard drive
-other hardware fault, e.g. thermal-throttling CPU

this, a thousand times.  Thank you.

[SeanB]

Bingo on all that, plus assorted drivers for printers they no longer have, all with the crapware bundled with that particular printer still running as well. Even Real Player spyware, which was uninstalled really fast as well, and replaced with VLC. Made a big difference in the next reboot to install only the printer that was needed. HP, why a 350M installer for a printer?

[echen1024]

Win 8 will soon be just an upgraded windows 7. The beloved start menu is coming back! Win 8 has some new, nice features such as the file copy window.

[Skimask]

HP, why a 350M installer for a printer?

No Kidding!!!
I've shitcanned two perfectly good HP printers (one home, one office) practically brand new, for that reason alone.

[echen1024]

HP, why a 350M installer for a printer?

No Kidding!!!
I've shitcanned two perfectly good HP printers (one home, one office) practically brand new, for that reason alone.

I recently shitcanned my 7 year old HP. It would print a half page, spit it out, and then print the next half on another sheet.

[SeanB]

Funny enough many older HP printers ( aside from the braindead ones that use the host as a rasteriser engine) just work fine in Linux, no driver required as it is either built in or available from your repo, and is both small and usable.

[Rigby]

consumer IT gear is almost always absolute rubbish.  that's where the 350MB installer comes from, bundled BS that no one needs.

any LaserJet supported by their unified driver (which is pretty small in comparison, < 20MB) will perform well at home.

you can often find off-lease laser printers that are of amazing quality and that have tons of life left.  and even when they don't, a $120 "replace the moving parts" kit that I forget the name of will get it right back to brand-new print quality. 

in that way, it is pretty easy to get a printer capable of double-sided printing, 20 pages per minute and 100,000 pages left before maintenance is due for just a couple hundred bucks.

[amyk]

This is why I've refused to "upgrade":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_Vista
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_7
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_features_removed_in_Windows_8

I never needed MS's support, in fact I used 98SE until only a few years ago. There's a community of users who have produced fixes for it that even allow running programs designed for newer versions, and if the size of the userbase of XP is any indication, there will be even more interest in doing this for it.

[T3sl4co1l]

Speaking of software at runtime... I had a Dell Inspiron 6150 or so with a P4 and all of 512MB RAM.   Its default configuration (XP) used 544MB at the desktop.  I haven't seen an XP machine sitting at less than 250MB, and that's with nothing else, even minimal services.  (Less I'm sure is possible, but probably not practicable.)

Tim

[GreyWoolfe]

Every Windows version is crappier than the previous one... go figure. Windows7 gets just as slow over time as any Windows version has been done before.

PEBKAC. Windows 7 still runs like a dream on a 3 year old install here. Ditto with XP - i only ever needed to reinstall because of upgrading hardware or because the hard drive with the OS installed on it failed.

Whenever a friend/relative asks me to look at their PC because it's running slowly it's one of the following 99% of the time:
-malware installed by the user
-bunch of harmless crapware(tm) installed by the user that spends an eternity launching at OS startup:
   -bloaty/multiple anti-virus/anti-malware programs
   -apps that launch in the system tray at OS startup in order to reduce the time taken from the user clicking the icon to the app being ready. Yes they make that app start faster but they hog RAM and significantly increase OS startup time.
   -updater tray apps (e.g. adobe reader updater, java updater, etc)
   -other unnecessary tray applications (e.g. manufacturer-specific peripheral control panels which are installed with hardware drivers)
Especially with low end PCs that don't have a lot of RAM it's not uncommon to find them with very little or no RAM free at initial startup which causes it have to shuffle the contents between the RAM and the pagefile on the hard drive which is orders of magnitude slower.
-filesystem is badly fragmented
-hardware fault with the hard drive
-other hardware fault, e.g. thermal-throttling CPU

Been there, done that.   My first question is, "Do you want a faster computer or all your quick start links on your desktop?"  Then I give an easily understandable reason that the first is better than the second.  I only ever had 1 person not opt for the faster computer.  I didn't please everyone but I sure came darn close

[echen1024]

consumer IT gear is almost always absolute rubbish.  that's where the 350MB installer comes from, bundled BS that no one needs.

any LaserJet supported by their unified driver (which is pretty small in comparison, < 20MB) will perform well at home.

you can often find off-lease laser printers that are of amazing quality and that have tons of life left.  and even when they don't, a $120 "replace the moving parts" kit that I forget the name of will get it right back to brand-new print quality. 

in that way, it is pretty easy to get a printer capable of double-sided printing, 20 pages per minute and 100,000 pages left before maintenance is due for just a couple hundred bucks.

I have learned that the hard way. My first PC, an off lease Dell Pentium M from my dads office ran perfectly fine for 8 years, until it finally gave out. I then (stupidly) purchased the latest flashy HP entertainment PC. Worked for about a month then the motherboard crapped itself. It felt of awful quality as well. Now I use a ThinkPad X230 Tablet purchased with the corporate EPP.

[Rigby]

• registry cleaning is for suckers.  a billion billion orphaned keys wouldn't slow it down; it's indexed.  if you don't believe me then you've been sold some snake oil. (you've been conned.) The placebo effect is strong with registry cleaners, and everyone "knows" they work.  They don't, really, everyone just thinks registry cleaners improve performance, so everyone says they improve performance.
• as I said before, most of the changes in recent windows versions are not user-noticeable, as they're mostly "under the hood" and architectural or administrative in nature.  there are plenty of noticeable changes, but the majority of the work has been into stability and overall OS design and implementation, and those changes have been significant.
• the changes I mention won't affect a single user at home, much, but in the enterprise the changes are VERY MUCH WELCOMED.
• If you follow the development of the operating systems as news of their development is released, the number of changes is simply mind-blowing.  they work their asses off on new versions of windows, whether anyone believes that or not.

All of that being said, if you find that Windows XP works for you, then I agree; there is little incentive to upgrade.  Power to ya.  I'm a developer and a lot of those newer frameworks that don't work under XP or don't perform well under XP serve me very well under Windows 7 & 8.

[SeanB]

Only registry cleaner I use is from Microsoft Sysinternals, which only does one thing, and makes the entire registry a single block on the drive, so that it is easier to read from for the OS. That does make a difference, and probably will also make a difference on a SSD as well by reducing the amount of different small block fetches instead of a single large block read. Runs once at startup, and as it is made by a developer who now works at Microsoft ( but made this for his own use and offered it for free along with an entire suite) where it is free. Google Microsoft sysinternals and you will get it.

http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb842062.aspx

For those who want it, download the entire suite if you like it. There are a lot of good utilities there that work well, and are well written. Nothing like a buggy crash reporter that crashes to spoil your day.

[rsjsouza]

+1 to Mark Rossinovich's utilities. Another set of utilities that helps me a lot is from Nirsoft.

[rdl]

I have Windows 7 on my living room computer and I like it a lot. It's been running since 2012. I've never paid for Windows 7, I haven't pirated it either. 95% of the software I use runs in "portable" mode. No registry needed, no "installation" needed. The only draw back, if you want to call it that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

[echen1024]

I have Windows 7 on my living room computer and I like it a lot. It's been running since 2012. I've never paid for Windows 7, I haven't pirated it either. 95% of the software I use runs in "portable" mode. No registry needed, no "installation" needed. The only draw back, if you want to call it that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

After a few times, it's significantly faster than you think.

[Skimask]

The only draw back, if you want to call it that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

Even less trouble if you've got an external drive with a basic Windows load on it and a program like Acronis True Image or whatever to do the restoration with.

[Jarrod Roberson]

Here is the most effective way to secure Windows! ( Any version )

[edavid]

I have Windows 7 on my living room computer and I like it a lot. It's been running since 2012. I've never paid for Windows 7, I haven't pirated it either. 95% of the software I use runs in "portable" mode. No registry needed, no "installation" needed. The only draw back, if you want to call it that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

I do the opposite, when I need to set up a new Windows PC for my own use, I clone an existing Windows installation.  I find that installing Windows is always more trouble than I remember

[nctnico]

that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

Back in the old days it took me about 9 hours to setup/configure a PC with office and internet. It will be a bit quicker nowadays due to faster CPU and hard drives but not much. My own PC (XP) will take me several full days to reinstall and configure all the software. Fortunately I'm using virtual machines so setting up a new PC to test something is done in a few minutes.

[Stonent]

that, is that I have to re-install Windows 3 times a year. I actually consider this a good thing and it's much less trouble than you would think.

Back in the old days it took me about 9 hours to setup/configure a PC with office and internet. It will be a bit quicker nowadays due to faster CPU and hard drives but not much. My own PC (XP) will take me several full days to reinstall and configure all the software. Fortunately I'm using virtual machines so setting up a new PC to test something is done in a few minutes.

I've now taken to slipstreaming updates into my Windows 8.1 thumb drive using DISM (part of windows) so that I never have to patch an OS re-load.

[rdl]

I need to look into using the built in Windows backup and restore. Though it only takes about 15 minutes or so to install Windows 7, it still takes me another 15-20 minutes to change all the default settings that annoy me and then install the few programs that I don't run in portable mode. It would probably be better to just make a backup right after everything is set up the way I like it, then just restore from that.

[TerraHertz]

I won't be saying goodbye to WinXP until there's some non-Microsoft alternative, that isn't a Linux variant either.
Mind you, this doesn't mean I like WinXP, in fact I hate it. And the entire Wintel machine architecture. It's just that XP is the last MS OS that I can use without wanting to take an axe to the machine. I have a fairly recent Acer laptop with Win7, and find that infuriating - very rarely use it. If I ever locate XP hardware drivers for that laptop, it's getting an XP-reversion.
As for Win 8, ha ha. I regularly have to help a particular naive computer user with their Win8 laptop, and it's a nightmare. Two or three more OS version increments and there won't be any way to access the bare filesystem at all, I reckon.

Now I'm about to wipe my main desktop system and reinstall WinXP, because when I set it up last year I made the huge mistake of enabling Intel BIOS RAID, using two drives. Found it unbearably irritating due to continual HD activity noise. Tried to turn RAID off - nope, not possible. Or rather you can turn it off in BIOS config, but then BIOS cannot read the HD anymore! Nor are the drives readable in other machines or docks, to make plain images. Checked the net, sure enough, you cannot back out of Intel BIOS RAID. So much for this providing more restore options after a failure.
Even if you remove one drive, leaving just one, it's _still_ using the BIOS RAID stuff, and still makes continual access noise. No HD activity LED, nothing visible in procmon or diskmon that corresponds to the drive access bursts. It's happening way down in the BIOS.
Thank God for external USB drive docks, as an escape hatch from bullsh*t like that.

Also, I'm _gradually_ migrating to fully portable utilities, so reinstalling isn't so much of a time-eating nightmare.
Plus, keeping a checklist of all the necessary Windows config twiddles, helps.

What I like best about MS Windows, is it provides such a rich source of ideas on 'how not to structure an OS & GUI'.

[Rigby]

...XP is the last MS OS that I can use without wanting to take an axe to the machine.

That says a lot more about you than it does Windows.  In fact, it makes you look like a complete nutter.

What I like best about MS Windows, is it provides such a rich source of ideas on 'how not to structure an OS & GUI'.

Pretty much the entire world disagrees with that.  I think you're likely to consider that a point in your favor, while reminding yourself that everyone except you is wrong all the time always no matter what.

So, please prove us wrong.  I'd like you to explain some technical points here about why Windows is how one should not structure an OS & GUI.  Be sure to cite your sources.  I guarantee you Microsoft has done more research with real people on UIs than you, so I'm very curious to know what your evidence-based points of contention are.

Please enlighten us to your superior evidence-based UI & OS designs.

[dr.diesel]

I guarantee you Microsoft has done more research with real people on UIs than you

Windows 8?

[Rigby]

I guarantee you Microsoft has done more research with real people on UIs than you

Windows 8?

If you mean the Metro/Modern UI then you should say that.  I'm going to assume you are.

Again, evidence?  I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not agreeing either.  I like the Windows 8 UI.  My wife and I both use Windows Phone, as does our eldest daughter.  So if you're going to sway me, you're going to need to cite something.  Given that the Windows 8 "modern" UI is entirely optional I'm not what impact it has, really.

[dr.diesel]

If you mean the Metro/Modern UI then you should say that.  I'm going to assume you are.

Again, evidence?

Yeah, I quoted the relevant comment!

Evidence?  Do you live under a rock?  Ha ha, I'm not bashing, just don't hear or read too many in favor of the new UI.

Anyhow, back to XP, hard to beat the UI, just wish the menu was at the top of the screen!

[digsys]

That says a lot more about you than it does Windows.  In fact, it makes you look like a complete nutter.

Pretty much the entire world disagrees with that.  I think you're likely to consider that a point in your favor, while reminding yourself that everyone except you is wrong all the time always no matter what.

Please enlighten us to your superior evidence-based UI & OS designs. 

Who died and made you oracle ?  You rubbish anyone that disagrees with YOUR opinion and quote fanciful figures that suit you !!
You do exactly what you accuse others of. Why not just accept that maybe others have opinions as well and stop being a pompous ass.

[ElektroQuark]

Anyhow, back to XP, hard to beat the UI, just wish the menu was at the top of the screen!

You can move it to the top of the screen.

[dr.diesel]

You can move it to the top of the screen.

lol can you?  I haven't used Windows in over decade probably!  (Although I did briefly use my brother's Win8 box just to check out the new UI)

[ElektroQuark]

You can move it to the top of the screen.

lol can you?

Yes, I can
You too.

[Monkeh]

Intel BIOS RAID, using two drives.

Nor are the drives readable in other machines or docks, to make plain images. Checked the net, sure enough, you cannot back out of Intel BIOS RAID.

You can easily read them if it's a remotely modern board. Intel has used a known container format for some time. See mdadm support for imsm containers.

[elgonzo]

Anyhow, back to XP, hard to beat the UI, just wish the menu was at the top of the screen!

You can move it to the top of the screen.

You are talking about the Start menu/task bar. But as far as program menus are concerned, in MS Windows they are part of the program window and do not appear at the top of the screen (unlike Mac OS or Ubuntu, for example). Or do Windows 8 apps allow to relocate a program's menu (honestly, i have no clue)?

[Rigby]

You can move it to the top of the screen.

lol can you?  I haven't used Windows in over decade probably!  (Although I did briefly use my brother's Win8 box just to check out the new UI)

clearly an expert on windows.

[GreyWoolfe]

I get to maintain my wife's and stepdaughter's Win8.1 laptops.  I am really not a fan.  I find it clumsy.  For example, 1 of my printers is a Brother HL-1440 laser printer networked through an old HP JetDirect EX Plus.  The setup was smooth on all the Win7 machines, but both 8.1 laptops took about 5 minutes to find the driver online.  Once the driver was found, all worked just fine.  I did check out an HP all in one with a 23" touch screen monitor and Win8.1 did make more sense for everyday usage.  I didn't attempt to dig into various settings to see how that worked.  The sticking point for me is the $850 price tag to replace a 2 year old HP z210 with a 22" and 19" monitor.  I still prefer Win7 over 8.1.  If someone really wants me to do XP for them, I would tell them to buy good antivirus/malware tools (nothing free), keep them updated, practice safe internet and stay off of porno sites, otherwise I won't help them .  I do have to admit, I do like Aero in Win7.  I don't mind a little eye candy like the see through task bar.  Then, again, I look at a computer as a tool to accomplish things, especially wasting time on the eevblog as compared to using it for social media like Facebook.

[Rigby]

That says a lot more about you than it does Windows.  In fact, it makes you look like a complete nutter.

Pretty much the entire world disagrees with that.  I think you're likely to consider that a point in your favor, while reminding yourself that everyone except you is wrong all the time always no matter what.

Please enlighten us to your superior evidence-based UI & OS designs. 

Who died and made you oracle ?  You rubbish anyone that disagrees with YOUR opinion and quote fanciful figures that suit you !!
You do exactly what you accuse others of. Why not just accept that maybe others have opinions as well and stop being a pompous ass.

i'm not an oracle, i just want to see evidence.  anyone can scrape up all the anecdotal "all my friends tell me" weight that they want, but it's not proof.  I just want evidence and proof, not hearsay or rumor or word of mouth or anything else that isn't firm enough to stand on, that's all.

If you have an opinion, and clearly you do, then that's all it is.  I don't mind opinion, just know that opinion has zero weight when it's alone.

if you think i'm a pompous ass then maybe i am, i don't know.  you're not the first person to tell me I am on a forum, and you won't be the last.  apparently just asking for evidence of anything is being a pompous ass, and i am certainly guilty of respecting fact over opinion, even when it's my own opinion that is wrong.  my own opinion is often wrong, as is everyone else's, and i'm willing to admit it.  not everyone is.

usually i come off as a pompous ass because i can be very clinical in my approach to understanding things.  I am absolutely not trying to convey superiority or judgement.  I am not superior to anyone and i generally consider myself to be a worthless pile of mold, if that makes you feel better.

[dr.diesel]

clearly an expert on windows.

Sorry, I didn't realize XP's UI changed over the years.

Anyhow, in the said decade or so past, I owned something over 400 Windows PCs.  Story for another time..

[Rigby]

Sorry, I didn't realize XP's UI changed over the years.

The ability to drag the taskbar (and thus, start menu) up to the top (or left or right) of the screen has been around since Windows 98 at the latest, maybe even Windows 95.  Usually it's stumbled across by accident through mis-dragging, or dragging unintentionally when a click was intended.  That's how most people find it, in my limited experience.

Just drag it around; it'll snap to the edges of the screen.

[edavid]

regarding the fresh complete new install of any windows (or maybe even mac? linux?). i used to do that, then i use this method to shorten the process. i use this linux based backup utility call REDO (so it should boot from any system). its a 1CD booter, it will backup the entire drive (maybe you can find something windows based if you do not want a full HDD backup). after a good fresh re-install/install, after setting whatever config settings for windows, install drivers, setup all your fav programs, etc etc etc etc (its easily a few hours there) ... i make a full backup of that "snap shot". and i no longer do anymore clean installs, just restore from that final snap shot. really saved me alot of time

Are you saying you can restore a redo snapshot to a different machine than the one it was made?  How does that work?

[Rigby]

you can tell Windows that it's about to be imaged, and it prepares itself for cloning, removing hardware-specific stuff, and install-specific stuff such as unique GUIDs and so on.

[Zero999]

i'm not an oracle, i just want to see evidence.  anyone can scrape up all the anecdotal "all my friends tell me" weight that they want, but it's not proof.  I just want evidence and proof, not hearsay or rumor or word of mouth or anything else that isn't firm enough to stand on, that's all.

If you have an opinion, and clearly you do, then that's all it is.  I don't mind opinion, just know that opinion has zero weight when it's alone.

if you think i'm a pompous ass then maybe i am, i don't know.  you're not the first person to tell me I am on a forum, and you won't be the last.  apparently just asking for evidence of anything is being a pompous ass, and i am certainly guilty of respecting fact over opinion, even when it's my own opinion that is wrong.  my own opinion is often wrong, as is everyone else's, and i'm willing to admit it.  not everyone is.

usually i come off as a pompous ass because i can be very clinical in my approach to understanding things.  I am absolutely not trying to convey superiority or judgement.  I am not superior to anyone and i generally consider myself to be a worthless pile of mold, if that makes you feel better.

Yes you are a pompous ass.

He just gave his opinion. It was only you who started saying the rest of the world disagrees with him. How the hell would you know what the rest of the world thinks?

In my opinion a classic example of what's wrong with Windows is the registry: lumping all the OS configuration data and program settings into a central database encoded in a proprietary format, has to be one of the most stupid design decisions ever. What on earth is wrong with storing configuration data in plain text files?

[Rigby]

Yes you are a pompous ass.

He just gave his opinion. It was only you who started saying the rest of the world disagrees with him. How the hell would you know what the rest of the world thinks?

In my opinion a classic example of what's wrong with Windows is the registry: lumping all the OS configuration data and program settings into a central database encoded in a proprietary format, has to be one of the most stupid design decisions ever. What on earth is wrong with storing configuration data in plain text files?

I just asked for evidence.  Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof.  The days of me believing people solely because they sound genuine are long gone.  I didn't say he was wrong, just wanted to know how he came to that conclusion.  I suspect it is unsubstantiated and amplified opinion, and if I am wrong, that is perfectly fine with me.  I just want to KNOW and not guess.

the registry exists for the same reason process-limited memory exists; to make it hard for one application to screw with another.  Lots of viruses spread because each program that ran could get the full memory contents of another program.  That is very hard to do, now.  Its a good thing.  The registry is sort of similar, and if you want you can definitely use .ini files if you are a software author.  Nothing prevents you from using .ini files, XML files, encrypted whatever files, or storing your config in the cloud.  The registry is just a very convenient option, and one app running cannot access another's registry keys without permission, if the software author requests that level of security. 
It's just another little layer of security.

It is the software developer that chooses to store configuration to the registry, so complaints about a lack of textual config files should be directed to them.

[TerraHertz]

That says a lot more about you than it does Windows.  In fact, it makes you look like a complete nutter.

Heh. Because NO ONE else ever expressed any frustrations with any later Windows versions?

Please enlighten us to your superior evidence-based UI & OS designs.

Since you asked in such a nice manner, without any trace of hostility or insult, and because going through a large tree of documents and summarizing them to something that would fit here would be totally worth my time for you, and additionally none of it would ever actually be commercially sensitive if by some chance these nutty ideas ended up in an actual demo OS....

No.

Btw, would I be right in guessing that you earn your living in some way associated with supporting MS Windows?

[Rigby]

Btw, would I be right in guessing that you earn your living in some way associated with supporting MS Windows?

No.

[baljemmett]

Sorry, I didn't realize XP's UI changed over the years.

The ability to drag the taskbar (and thus, start menu) up to the top (or left or right) of the screen has been around since Windows 98 at the latest, maybe even Windows 95.  Usually it's stumbled across by accident through mis-dragging, or dragging unintentionally when a click was intended.  That's how most people find it, in my limited experience.

Just drag it around; it'll snap to the edges of the screen.

Yes, that's been around since Windows 95 - however, exactly because the ability is often discovered by accident (along with fellow novice-puzzlers the zero-height or far-too-tall taskbar), in Windows XP the taskbar became locked by default.  You have to right-click on it and deselect 'lock the taskbar' before it'll let you resize or move either the taskbar or any toolbars within it.

Doesn't help with applications' menu bars, of course, and I suspect those are what were originally in mind for this little subthread...

[Zero999]

the registry exists for the same reason process-limited memory exists; to make it hard for one application to screw with another.  Lots of viruses spread because each program that ran could get the full memory contents of another program.  That is very hard to do, now.  Its a good thing.  The registry is sort of similar, and if you want you can definitely use .ini files if you are a software author.  Nothing prevents you from using .ini files, XML files, encrypted whatever files, or storing your config in the cloud.  The registry is just a very convenient option, and one app running cannot access another's registry keys without permission, if the software author requests that level of security. 
It's just another little layer of security.

It is the software developer that chooses to store configuration to the registry, so complaints about a lack of textual config files should be directed to them.

The file system has security features which prevent important configuration information from being modified.

The registry is nonsense. A good proportion of it isn't even documented and it wouldn't surprise me if even Microsoft themselves don't even know what certain keys do. To change some system settings, you have to search through a load of random keys. The whole thing is a total mess.

[edavid]

The file system has security features which prevent important configuration information from being modified.

The registry was developed when Windows was using the MSDOS filesystem, which had no security features, and was generally so weak it wasn't even suitable for storing config files.  Instead of fixing that, they developed a whole new specialized filesystem called the registry.  But, then they fixed up the filesystem anyway.  What a waste.

The registry is nonsense. A good proportion of it isn't even documented and it wouldn't surprise me if even Microsoft themselves don't even know what certain keys do. To change some system settings, you have to search through a load of random keys. The whole thing is a total mess.

Agreed, but if Microsoft used config files, they would be a mess too

[Rigby]

Agreed, but if Microsoft used config files, they would be a mess too

true, and it's a heck of a lot more difficult to accidentally delete a vital registry key than it is a text file on disk somewhere.

if it isn't documented somewhere, then you shouldn't be dinking around with it, registry or not.  surely by now there's a resource on the web somewhere of known keys and their use(s), though.  I haven't looked.

[TerraHertz]

Agreed, but if Microsoft used config files, they would be a mess too

true, and it's a heck of a lot more difficult to accidentally delete a vital registry key than it is a text file on disk somewhere.

if it isn't documented somewhere, then you shouldn't be dinking around with it, registry or not.  surely by now there's a resource on the web somewhere of known keys and their use(s), though.  I haven't looked.

My apologies, you seemed so dedicated to MS Windows that I assumed you must have in-depth knowledge, and (somehow) still like Windows enough to defend it.
Anyway, while looking into the 'icon position loss' problem Windows has, the right-click context menus, and a few other MS-WindowsXP  aspects that are buried in the Registry, I kept references.
For anyone interested here are some.

If anyone knows of good sources that aren't listed here, please post them.

---------

MS WinXP registry function
--------------------------

See also CLSID_about

20130501
http://www.easydesksoftware.com/rworks.htm
How the Windows Registry Works

http://www.davescomputertips.com/2011/08/the-windows-registry-explained/
The Windows registry explained

In the registry database - five 'hives'
HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT –  storage for information about registered programs and file associations.
HKEY_CURRENT_USER – storage for settings specific to the current user. If your computer is set up with multiple user accounts this is where the settings for each user are kept.
HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE – storage for settings that apply to all users of the computer.
HKEY_USERS – storage for subkeys which correspond to the HKEY_CURRENT_USER keys for each user account.
HKEY_CURRENT CONFIG – storage for keys generated during boot. This hive is actually created when the computer boots and is not stored on your hard drive.

When saved on HD:

Located in c:windowssystem32config
  SAM – contains the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESAM hive.
  SECURITY – contains the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESECURITY hive.
  SOFTWARE – contains the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINESOFTWARE hive.
  SYSTEM – contains all other sub hives of THE HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE hive.

WinXP: Located in c:Documents and Settings<your user name>
Vista, Win7:      c:Users<your user name>
  NTUSER.DAT – contains the HKEY_CURRENT_USER hive.

-----------------------

http://www.herongyang.com/Windows/Registry-Hives-HKCR-HKCU-HKLM-HKU-HKCC-HCPD.html
Registry Hives - HKCR, HKCU, HKLM, HKU, HKCC, and HKPD
Information stored in the Registry is divided into several predefined sections called "hives". A registry hive is a top level registry key predefined by the Windows system to store registry keys for specific objectives.

On my Windows XP system, the Registry has 6 registry hives:
HKCR - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_CLASSES_ROOT. HKCR stores information about registered applications, such as Associations from File Extensions and OLE Object Class IDs tying them to the applications used to handle these items.

HKCU - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_CURRENT_USER. HKCU stores settings that are specific to the currently logged-in user. The HKCU key is a link to the subkey of HKEY_USERS that corresponds to the user; the same information is reflected in both locations.

HKLM - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE. HKLM stores settings that are general to all users on the computer. On my XP system, HKLM contains five subkeys, HARDWARE, SAM, SECURITY, SOFTWARE and SYSTEM.

HKU - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_USERS. HKU contains subkeys corresponding to the HKEY_CURRENT_USER keys for each user registered on the machine.

HKCC - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_CURRENT_CONFIG. HKCC contains information gathered at runtime; information stored in this key is not permanently stored on the hard disk, but rather regenerated at boot time.

HKPD - Abbreviated from the registry key name HKEY_PERFORMANCE_DATA. HKPD provides runtime information into performance data provided by either the operating system kernel itself or other programs that provide performance data. This key is not displayed in the Registry Editor, but it is visible through the registry functions in the Windows API.

If you run "regedit.exe" on a Windows XP system, you should see 5 visible registry hives

------------------------------

http://rwmj.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/why-the-windows-registry-sucks-technically/
Why the Windows Registry sucks … technically

http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/2007/08/was-the-windows-registry-a-good-idea.html
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/b3mr2/why_the_windows_registry_sucks_technically/

http://superuser.com/questions/486157/how-to-merge-windows-registry-hives-directly-without-converting-them-to-an-inter

http://blogs.msdn.com/b/oldnewthing/archive/2003/08/08/54618.aspx
  Why is a registry file called a "hive"?
  Because one of the original developers of Windows NT hated bees.  So the developer who was responsible for the registry snuck in as many bee references as he could.  A registry file is called a "hive", and registry data are stored in "cells", which is what honeycombs are made of. [Hmm, I thought it had to do with that fact that the data was structured using B-trees?]


http://zts-zts.blogspot.com.au/2009/08/registry.html
What is the Registry?

--------------------
From DS 20130505
It's funny, I have been working with XP all week, and was thinking how
vastly better it was than 7 or 8. Vista was just another ME. Last time I
spoke to Dave A about 3 years ago I asked him if he knew a good win
hack site and he said GOOD programmers just don't DO windows, except maybe
in Java or a HTML tyoe thingy. Active web pages stuff. He had a pal who
reverse engineered the registry code as a phd thesis, but never did
windows ever again, he was so disgusted.

That's certainly been my experience. I have never met a win programmer
whom I respected. Have you? They still have that "we are a monopoly so
f*ck you" mentality, and think even Apples are toys. You know I rather
admire apple, especially for users as opposed to programmers. At least it
has a rock solid kernel base (BSD Unix) and is quite friendly.

---20130506
re: Dave A, i''d have a look around Dublin Uni CS web site for papers
published around 1999/2000 Snag is, if he had help from MS, which they
will do for Uni Phd people, they will have heavily redacted it, maybe even
made it unfindable. They are sorta "helpful"(I.E. They like to see what
you are doing and hold out chocolate) to research people like that. I can
try to ring him when I get back. But these things do have a way of
disappearing into the mists of time.
====================================

Books on the Windows XP registry.
---------------------------------

== Online ==

http://books.sysadmins.su/oldlib/Windows/Mastering%20Windows%20XP%20Registry%20(2002).pdf
Mastering Windows XP Registry   Peter Hipson, 2002
website:  http://www.jsiinc.com/reghack.htm   gone


http://kokyawmyintoo.blogspot.com.au/2008/08/windows-xp-registry-guide-e-book.html
Microsoft Windows XP Registry Guide - 2003 by Jerry Honeycutt
Review: Jerry Honeycutt's, Windows XP Registry Guide, is an invaluable resource for any XP user. Two registry guides I read for previous Windows operating systems were a total waste of money. This book, however, is worth buying at any price. The Windows XP Registry Guide takes a systematic approach to learning and using registry tools to get the most out or your XP system. Novice users will learn enough to make the book worthwhile by reading just the first section (five chapters), but once you get that far you will want to read it all. Jerry is careful to warn about careless hacking and thoroughly covers backing up and restoring the registry using tools already included in Windows XP and several third party tools. I was surprised to learn how useful Microsoft's Word application is in managing changes made to the registry.
Download Link: (but had to wade through a lot of teasers to find it)
http://hotfile.com/dl/39021413/e04d532/Windows.XP.Registry.Guide.rar.html


Master the Windows XP Registry
http://www.techrepublic.com/downloads/master-the-windows-xp-registry/173370
This book chapter, excerpted from O'Reilly's Windows XP in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition , describes how the Windows Registry works, what's in it, and how to safely add and delete keys and values. It also shows how the Registry is organized and explains the function of many of its most important keys. Learn what you need to know about backing up the Windows Registry as well as exporting and importing Registry data with patches.
Title: Windows XP in a Nutshell, 2nd Edition
ISBN: 0596009003  Published: February 2005
Authors: David A. Karp, Tim O'Reilly, Troy Mott
Chapter: Chapter 8: The Registry


Remove applications from the Open With List in Windows Explorer   Version 1.0 March 22, 2011
http://i.techrepublic.com.com/downloads/Windows/mkaelin_QT_Remove_OpenWithApps.pdf?tag=mantle_skin;content

  --- teases - can't get to real non-exe downloadable file ---
http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/218076093/?tab=summary
Directory: Microsoft.Windows.XP.Registry.Guide.Book-PDF-[oB2Se]
Files:Microsoft.Windows.XP.Registry.Guide.Book-PDF-[oB2Se].nfo   2.2 KB
MSWXPRGB[oB2Se].rar   5.7 MB
MSWXPRGB[oB2Se].sfv   223 Bytes
5.72 MB in 3 files. Torrent created 155.3 weeks ago.

http://isohunt.com/torrent_details/41539940/Microsoft+Windows+XP+Registry?tab=summary
File: Ultimate Guide to Microsoft Windows XP Registry 2008 Complete.pdf.zip
5.78 MB in 1 file. Torrent created 262.5 weeks ago.

== Paper ==== 20130510 ====
Microsoft Windows XP Registry Guide
Jerry Honeycutt (Author)
 
Windows XP in a Nutshell. O'Reilly - Chap 8 on registry

Mastering Windows XP Registry
Peter D. Hipson

Managing the Windows 2000 registry. Paul Robichaux. Pub: O'Reilly

==================================
My opinion:
Microsoft: "Let's put all categories of configuration and state information for everything in the Windows OS, GUI and user applications, all mixed together in one giant central database. But with most of it undocumented. Oh, and we'll break it into arbitrary parts, give them ridiculous names, keep the only current version in memory, make sure there's no easy way to save and restore it as a simple, single compact file, and provide a really crap utility to search/edit/debug it. We'll make the data structures it contains arcane and poorly documented, all the better to hide things (like our deliberate 'look and feel' UI cripples - icon position data, cough.) By obfuscation we'll ensure it always grows ever larger and cruftier over time. Essential linkages will be inscrutible numeric CLSIDs, rather than containing any human-comprehensible descriptive text. The mixing of OS and user-app config data will make your working environment of installed software tools totally uncloneable, thus forcing you to frequently waste hours and days rebuilding it all. The operating system and most applications will critically depend on it, which will make it a central point of failure able to take down a whole machine via the slightest corruption. If that should by unlikely chance ever happen, bwahahaha! Not that we insist you regularly buy a new PC and OS or anything!
 We'll call it The Windows Registry."

I'm very interested to see what happens with XP once MS really drops support. There's been an ongoing effort among some groups to reverse engineer XP, de-cruft and open-source it. Tools like nlite are already very useful, and there are some damned good XP-lite install images around. It seems to me there's some potential for a significant freeware fork of the 'Windows' style OS, away from Microsoft's very questionable intended evolution path for Windows. MS sees Windows becoming an ever more closed-box system, with stronger DRM controls, less user visibility of the underlying structures, the raw file system becoming more and more inaccessible, and of course the GUI being even more interwoven with the core OS than it is now. Instead of being a completely independent and replaceable user-level application, as it should be.

[Skimask]

Not even Acronis needed. The basic Windows backup/restore software works sufficiently well. I'm not saying it is the best, just that it works. I always take a full system backup of a new machine after updating it to the latest maintenance and removing the new machine bloatware and trial products I don't want. It makes going back to a clean slate so much less painful and also useful when selling a machine at upgrade time. You leave no personal info laying around. Not in the registry not anywhere.

'tis true.  Acronis works for me, hasn't let me down yet (...yet being the operative word...).  Same as everything else, might be the absolute worst thing for others.
Whenever I set up a new office, I tell the HMFIC of the office that we can either buy a business copy of Acronis now, or he can pay me the extra $$$ later plus the extra hours reloading everything when (not IF, but when) a PC dies a horrible death in some unimaginable way.  When I go back for yearly (monthly in a couple high $$$ clients) preventative maintenance runs, I cut new images.  Saves me a buttload of time when things go south.

[TheBorg]

I realized a couple months ago, when installing a VM, that XP really sucks. No SATA drivers installed, etc, etc. Plus the icons are rubbish compared to anything modern.

Not to say I will not keep a VM on ice just in case I need to use XP, but I'm not sad to see it go. It had it's turn at being a great OS. Now moving on.

[Rigby]

Yeah.  XP is awesome only if you've not used anything newer.

[c4757p]

I realized a couple months ago, when installing a VM, that XP really sucks. No SATA drivers installed, etc, etc. Plus the icons are rubbish compared to anything modern.

XP is a bit sucky, but dude, you just said it sucks because 1) it lacks drivers for one particular interface that was standardized two years after it came out (and for which drivers can be installed somewhat easily), and 2) icons. Surely you've got better....

[edavid]

I realized a couple months ago, when installing a VM, that XP really sucks. No SATA drivers installed, etc, etc. Plus the icons are rubbish compared to anything modern.

XP is a bit sucky, but dude, you just said it sucks because 1) it lacks drivers for one particular interface that was standardized two years after it came out (and for which drivers can be installed somewhat easily), and 2) icons. Surely you've got better....

And those drivers aren't even needed!  Who ever sees any performance benefit from AHCI?

[TMM]

in my opinion, windows 8 was made to detract users from going into its innards. it definately is made to reduce software piracy.

I don't know if it is as effective at doing that as they intended. Downloading and running an executable is as easy as it ever was. Anyone who is willing to install software cracks etc is going to work out how to get into the registry and open the program files folder...

Also the whole 'app store' thing opens up a pandoras box imo. For example, when i got my windows 8 tablet i went and had a look if there was a Facebook app because browsing facebook in internet explorer at 1920x1080 on a 12" display is annoying as you constantly have to zoom in and out. Doing a search for Facebook in the app store returned at least 20 apps that masqueraded as the official facebook app. Any average joe could have easily been tricked into downloading one of those apps and potentially had their private data skimmed off to a third party.

[TMM]

in my opinion, windows 8 was made to detract users from going into its innards. it definately is made to reduce software piracy.

I don't know if it is as effective at doing that as they intended. Downloading and running an executable is as easy as it ever was. Anyone who is willing to install software cracks etc is going to work out how to get into the registry and open the program files folder...

Also the whole 'app store' thing opens up a pandoras box imo. For example, when i got my windows 8 tablet i went and had a look if there was a Facebook app because browsing facebook in internet explorer at 1920x1080 on a 12" display is annoying as you constantly have to zoom in and out. Doing a search for Facebook in the app store returned at least 20 apps that masqueraded as the official facebook app. Any average joe could have easily been tricked into downloading one of those apps and potentially had their private data skimmed off to a third party.

Is your private data in the hands of Facebook any more appealing?

Valid point . The point i was getting at is that it shouldn't be marketed that you need "the app" to access everything. Microsoft don't seem to care about regulating dangerous apps in their app store - it's just another outlet to promote their own products. You could do some serious damage with a third party ebay app or similar and skim money through paypal.

[Rigby]

But the apps themselves don't capture the passwords.  They present authentication form(s) from the site you want to connect to, where you allow or disallow the app to connect.  The app never sees your username or password.

I'm sure there are apps that work differently but I simply don't give my credentials to those apps, and I uninstall them.

The windows store approval process does indeed involve making note of each and every function call made and looks for sneaky stuff like this.  that's why it can take up to a week to get your update into the Windows Store, and that's why a human has to look at each and every submission to the store.

It is far easier to sneak "evil" code into a traditional windows desktop apps, which people seem to trust implicitly, and traditional windows desktop apps are freely downloadable from anywhere.  As someone who has developed for the windows store, it's precisely the windows store auditing that makes me think it is this auditing and scrutiny that is getting people to complain about the windows store.  if I wrote software that spied on people, I'd bitch about the windows store, too, because the windows store makes it much more difficult to get that code to the end user.

It's android that people need to be worried about, really.  Anything can get in there.

[TMM]

But the apps themselves don't capture the passwords.  They present authentication form(s) from the site you want to connect to, where you allow or disallow the app to connect.  The app never sees your username or password.

I'm sure there are apps that work differently but I simply don't give my credentials to those apps, and I uninstall them.

That is the problem. The average user isn't able to judge if it's working in a safe manner. Better off just restricting them to a browser.

[TheBorg]

I realized a couple months ago, when installing a VM, that XP really sucks. No SATA drivers installed, etc, etc. Plus the icons are rubbish compared to anything modern.

XP is a bit sucky, but dude, you just said it sucks because 1) it lacks drivers for one particular interface that was standardized two years after it came out (and for which drivers can be installed somewhat easily), and 2) icons. Surely you've got better....

Better: the fact that I can get a newer version with more drivers and less sucky icons. Interface, maybe not. 
Time to let go. Staying on XP is like saying I'm still running OSX 10.0 ("Cheetah"), or linux 2.5.
Sure, XP will continue to be used in some installations and for particular uses, but for a "consumer", it really is time to move on. 

It really was a decent OS in it's time. But it's time should have ended 5 years ago. Now I won't say I like 8.1, I've never run it, but windows 7 is a pretty darn good OS.

[GreyWoolfe]

To paraphrase Shakespeare, ".Alas, poor XP! I knew him, Horatio, an OS of infinite jest, of most excellent fancy. He hath bore me on his back a thousand times, and now how abhorr'd in my imagination it is!  My gorge rises at it." (holding a large stack of XP install discs glued together and ground to the shape of a skull)

[440roadrunner]

Dislike 7,    Detest 8.      I  use  Linux  for all that  I can.   Started  with   Suse  years  ago, used  Ubuntu  for several years.  Would still be using  Ubuntu  except for  the VERY  annoying  "Unity"  desktop which is  anything  but  --unifying, that is.  and now use  Linux  Mint.

It  just   quite  simply  works   fine.   I use  Winhozed  very  very  little.   Programming  the   Holley EFI  system   is one of the few  jobs  for  Winhozed.

[Rigby]

Seems like you could use any window manager you liked, right?  Used to be that you could configure the living hell out of Linux and that's why people used it.

Are you saying that you actually have to switch distros now to get the UI you want?  Confirmed: Linux sucks.

WAY back in the day, I ran RedHat Linux 4.2 (this is circa 1997 if I recall) with WindowMaker.  the default window manager was not WindowMaker.  It was a huge PITA to set up and I got almost nothing done while fighting the audio subsystem or V4L drivers or whatever the battle du jour was, but when it worked it worked right up until I rebooted.

I was a young lad then and I had the energy to put up with that BS... I don't anymore.  You guys have fun with your OS. 

[SeanB]

That is fine, I still have Win98SE running on a machine. Even has IE installed, but as it is not ever going to get internet access, and runs only 1 vertical app it will be fine until the hardware dies, and in that case I have a mirrored disk, and a spare machine as well. No activation hell, no updates to install, and it still just works.

[Rigby]

That is fine, I still have Win98SE running on a machine. Even has IE installed, but as it is not ever going to get internet access, and runs only 1 vertical app it will be fine until the hardware dies, and in that case I have a mirrored disk, and a spare machine as well. No activation hell, no updates to install, and it still just works.

Of course it still works, it's not doing anything.  This isn't a good testament for the OS.  I was a beta tester for Windows 98 and it was absolute crap through its entire lifetime, for my day-to-day usage.  I've not had a single crash in Windows 7 or 8 that wasn't caused by bad hardware.  Removing said hardware ended any instability.  Win98 would just fall over sometimes, no matter what I was (or wasn't) doing.  Win98 was a mess.  I'm sure, though, if I only used it for one app and didn't connect it to the Internet that it would have been fine, too.

not meaning to nitpick, sorry. 

[SeanB]

Funny enough I used to have 2 home computers, both running Win98SE. One was connected to the internet, and the other was not. Both had the same updates applied, the second via sneakernet. Internet one would run for about a month between reboots, mostly for updates that needed that, and the second would simply have the updates stacked for when I decided to install. Ran Mozilla browser on that then upgraded to Firefox after the name change. When I changed it was to RH6, then Ubuntu, and only the LTS versions. that way things stay stable, not bleeding edge but stable and workable.

[SeanB]

Since 1998............ Firefox was a fork from around 2003.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mozilla

[TVman]

Everyone is NOT thinking 4th dimension.

All those hackers know that people will switch to A windows 7/8 operating system,
But there will few whom will stay.

So the hackers will spit at the newer systems. Right?
Microsoft is trying to get people to BUY a new CPU so they can cash some money!!

It's how they make money......




 

[David_AVD]

on the developer/programmer side, how much license fees do they pay to MS to officially release their works on MS platform?

I program with Delphi (7 and XE) and apart from licensing the development software, there are no fees to pay to anyone.