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Government Threatens Retired Engineer Wayne Nutt With a Crime for Doing Math

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Someone:

--- Quote from: ebastler on June 19, 2021, 08:48:54 am ---
--- Quote from: Someone on June 19, 2021, 07:42:56 am ---lol, the usual reactionary crap from 4th hand retellings that have wandered from the actual situation.

Expert testimony is in no way normal public speaking or a passive pass-time, this guy didn't put an opinion on a blog or chat to someone at a party, but was put into court to provide an opinion. Which is something that only registered professionals can do (for various reasons) and no amount of disclaimers along the lines of "I'm not a registered engineer, but.... " avoid it.

--- End quote ---

Where did you read or hear that he testified in court as an expert? Not saying that you are wrong, but I did not see that mentioned anywhere. Can you please provide a reference to your source?

--- End quote ---
Here is the "free speech" side of the story:
https://ij.org/press-release/north-carolina-board-tells-retired-engineer-he-cant-talk-about-engineering/
Where you can see the actual legal document they submitted.


--- Quote from: jpanhalt on June 19, 2021, 09:51:04 am ---Here's an update: https://www.wect.com/2021/06/10/retired-wilmington-engineer-files-federal-lawsuit-against-state-board-claims-first-amendement-violations/

@Someone
In the US, in order to testify as an expert witness, the court must accept your qualifications.  That can be done before or during a trial.  Of course, if the expert lies during that examination he/she commits perjury.  As for limiting such testimony to "registered" professionals only, being currently registered or licensed may help establish expertise, but is not required per se, at least not every instance.

There is a distinction between being an expert witness and practicing.  For example, an individual can represent himself in court, but he cannot give an expert opinion on the law.
--- End quote ---
As the case makes clear, the previous court accepted the witness as an expert, but a different set of laws restrict engineering practice. By giving expert testimony the regulatory board says that is undertaking engineering practice which is restricted, while the other side has jumped at free speech as a populist position to gloss over all the complexities. There has to be a line somewhere between practising that impacts the public, providing testimony in court is pretty clearly something that impacts the public.

Sure its a protectionist racket, but its better than the alternative free for all which has lead to serious issues. For the other side of the argument:
https://www.engineersaustralia.org.au/sites/default/files/855843%20Policy%20-%20Registration%20of%20Engineers%20Brochure%20V7.pdf

Brumby:
Surely the simplest answer to all this is to have the submission from the "uncredentialled" source presented as input to a review by those WITH appropriate credentials?

Otherwise, you could have someone from the public make an observation and in an attempt to make authorities aware, be penalised for acting outside their official area of expertise.

For example, reporting something that lands you in hot water...
 * A bridge has broken struts and you're not a civil engineer
 * An outbreak of a disease in and you're not a medical professional with appropriate specialty
 * A pothole the size of a wheelbarrow and you're not a road engineer

The fact that there is ANY story around this event smacks to me of one of two things:
A. A government department wants to shut up an embarrassment.
B. Some over-important civil servant wants to jump on a crusade because they need to feel important.

G7PSK:

--- Quote from: themadhippy on June 18, 2021, 03:28:53 pm ---
--- Quote ---Wrong side of the equator.
--- End quote ---
I was pointing out the similarity in the rules not the geographical location. As an example on a previous job i was regularly playing with much larger supplies than found in your average house , often outdoors,either from the mains,generators or a combination of the two and was my name on the paper work that said it  complied to the relevant regulations,however  back at home, unless i pay one of the cartels an annual bung  im legally unable to change a light fitting in the bathroom.Seems the  years i spent at collage studying  along with  the final practical exam as part of a proper 5 year city and guilds apprenticeship was a waste of time.

--- End quote ---

You can change a fitting in the UK without any qualification if its your own house, what you cannot do under the regs which were an EU mandate is put in new wiring , well you can but then you have to get a qualified electrician to check it out and notify the local council so it cheaper to jut get sparky to do the whole job.

jpanhalt:
@Someone

--- Quote ---As the case makes clear, the previous court accepted the witness as an expert, but a different set of laws restrict engineering practice. By giving expert testimony the regulatory board says that is undertaking engineering practice which is restricted,...
--- End quote ---

I agree with most of that, but the critical point is a court accepted him as an expert.  Is that the same a "practicing?"  That might be contested on appeal, but generally, it falls within the discretion of the court.

This is a bit off-topic, as I am not familiar with case law regarding engineering.  Nevertheless, here's an example from another professional field, and I suspect an American court would reach the same conclusion whether testimony as an expert constitutes practice..  Dr. Baden is a well known Forensic Pathologist in the US.  (Some might say notorious.)  He is certified by the American Board of Pathology and in the subspecialty of Forensic Pathology. According to Google, he is licensed to practice medicine only in Florida and NY.  Courts in Minneapolis and elsewhere (George Floyd, OJ Simpson, Michael Brown cases, to name a few) have allowed him to testify as an expert witness.  So far as I know, there has never been an appeal based on the ground that he was practicing without a license, nor has anyone sued him for doing that.

That might be where American and Australian laws differ. 

themadhippy:

--- Quote ---You can change a fitting in the UK without any qualification if its your own house,
--- End quote ---
unless its in a special location,such as a room   containing  a bath or shower

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