Author Topic: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA  (Read 4590 times)

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Offline JustMeHereTopic starter

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Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« on: August 02, 2023, 08:45:03 am »
New reactor came online in the USA this week.  1,100 Gigawatts. 

Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel. 

https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/

EDIT: fixed unit conversion.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2023, 08:00:15 am by JustMeHere »
 

Offline srb1954

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #1 on: August 02, 2023, 11:04:43 am »
New reactor came online in the USA this week.  1,100 Gigawatts. 

Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel. 

https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/
I think it is 1,100 Megawatts.

1,100 Gigawatts would be enough to power the whole of USA and have some left over for Canada and Mexico.
 

Offline AlbertL

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #2 on: August 02, 2023, 02:35:24 pm »
A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room?  https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html .  I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges.  "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"

 
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Offline JustMeHereTopic starter

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #3 on: August 02, 2023, 02:50:06 pm »
New reactor came online in the USA this week.  1,100 Gigawatts. 

Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel. 

https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/
I think it is 1,100 Megawatts.

1,100 Gigawatts would be enough to power the whole of USA and have some left over for Canada and Mexico.

Yes 1.1 Gigawatts.  Sorry was late.
 

Offline jmelson

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #4 on: August 02, 2023, 05:12:34 pm »
A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room?  https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html .  I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges.  "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school.  Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #5 on: August 02, 2023, 05:57:44 pm »
It's not enough for the DeLorean! Whaaaa.

Nuclear or green energy, it doesn't matter - you will get ripped off and fork out extra billions.
"... both units will finish years behind schedule and billions over initial cost estimates. The main contractor on the units fell into bankruptcy and some of the project’s co-owners have sued Georgia Power over the rising costs."
"Georgia Power ratepayers started paying for the two units in their monthly bills years ago."
"U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) says the country needs to expand its nuclear fleet. The agency supported the Vogtle project with $12 billion in guaranteed loans."


I worked on Westinghouse WDPF-based control systems, they are turnkey for coal and nuke plants.
The redundant data highway kept failing, for years. The second comm channel keeps the plant running though. Every board possible sent in for repair $10,000's spent on RMA's.
One day the data highway (redundant, second channel) went down again and I got pissed off. I did the unthinkable, put an ohmmeter across it and got 75 ohms. Thing is, it's terminated at both ends. So that meant an open circuit.
Anyway, a lot of walking around the plant undoing connectors and taking readings I found the problem was a bad bulkhead connector for the coax data highway.
Most were made in USA but a bunch of made in china parts were in there that did not make a good connection. Shit tolerances, wrong size pins, no gold.
Westinghouse charges premium pricing for all parts on these control systems, as a massive cash cow.
I'm not sure if they changed out all of them or just the dud. Vibration in the room where racks were was fairly high due to data room air conditioning and the coal mills caused regular earthquakes if the coal was hard, as well as generator carbon brush dust all over the boards despite filtration.
Reliability is not really any better IMHO.
 
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Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2023, 12:52:02 am »
They should have waited a month and build it with room temperature superconductors...
Hoarder of 8-bit Commodore relics and 1960s Tektronix 500-series stuff. Unconventional interior decorator.
 
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Offline Someone

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2023, 01:27:41 am »
A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room?  https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html .  I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges.  "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school.  Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
 

Offline freda

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2023, 01:32:54 am »
anything new about this reactor, or is it same old high pressure water cooled reactor designs as in past?

the link straight up pops a paywall, would be good if possible to screenscrape a part of the article
perhaps ?
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2023, 01:36:37 am »
anything new about this reactor, or is it same old high pressure water cooled reactor designs as in past?

the link straight up pops a paywall, would be good if possible to screenscrape a part of the article
perhaps ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant
 

Online ejeffrey

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2023, 01:58:18 am »
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.

Since TMI was made dramatically worse by operators misunderstanding the readouts, I think when the *** hits the fan you want to have a system designed to give the most relevant information presented in a way that allows you to efficiently  make correct decisions.
 

Offline freda

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #11 on: August 03, 2023, 02:35:50 am »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant

some very interesting reads and so is the related start of the bankruptcy of Westinghouse.
At the inception of this reactor, the capabilities to build such large projects was very diminished.
I wonder if Westinghouse had grown the capabilities in-house rather than sub contracting out
would have been more successful?  seeing how Tesla has more less totally built up car manufacturing
in-house and majority of its production ability, from being near virgins to that industry. It took a while
but seems very successful.
 

Offline Someone

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #12 on: August 03, 2023, 02:36:10 am »
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
Since TMI was made dramatically worse by operators misunderstanding the readouts, I think when the *** hits the fan you want to have a system designed to give the most relevant information presented in a way that allows you to efficiently  make correct decisions.
Its layers, readable clear well designed is great when it can be supplied. No disagreement. Then Fukushima with technicians scrambling to get batteries. I'm a big fan of inherent safety/stability but unexpected/catastrophic events will occur and at that point independent mechanical backups are less likely to be inoperative.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #13 on: August 03, 2023, 12:59:41 pm »
I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?
I know, I know, there will be “rainy days”. But this is the rule, not the exception, and if one is experienced at managing these projects, one plans ahead for the inevitable setbacks.

My theory, and that is only my personal theory: that when the project is first developed, the costs and timeframe are low balled in other to win the contract.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2023, 03:22:44 pm »
I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?
I know, I know, there will be “rainy days”. But this is the rule, not the exception, and if one is experienced at managing these projects, one plans ahead for the inevitable setbacks.

My theory, and that is only my personal theory: that when the project is first developed, the costs and timeframe are low balled in other to win the contract.

Lawsuits cause delays and delays cost money - lots of money.  The game plan of the anti-nukes has always been to drive the cost so high that nobody would think of building a project.

I added a contingency line item to every project I ever worked on.  It was removed by Finance on every project I ever worked on.  So, I continued to include the line item on future projects so Finance could make their contribution to cost containment but I also buried another copy in each of the various line items.

California is just damned lucky that Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant didn't shut down on schedule or we would be in serious trouble with this heat wave.  Apparently the Governor thought it should stay open for another 20 years.  Not the answer his supporters wanted!

PG&E gets $1.1bn from Feds to not shut it down:

https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-approves-conditional-funding-diablo-canyon-nuclear-power-plant-2022-11-21
« Last Edit: August 03, 2023, 03:24:39 pm by rstofer »
 
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Offline rstofer

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #15 on: August 03, 2023, 03:38:02 pm »
I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?

How much time and money do you spend estimating a job you probably won't get?   You make somewhat reasonable assumptions and price accordingly.  Meanwhile the customer is making scope changes throughout the process.  Some changes are bigger than others.  Then the lawyers show up!

Remember, the interest on the construction loans keeps building while the anti-nukers keep litigating.  Construction loans aren't cheap no matter how they're funded.  The plant is eating money until the day it starts generating.

 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #16 on: August 03, 2023, 04:31:00 pm »
B Flyvbjerg and D Gardner in their recent book "How Big Things Get Done" (Currency 2023, p 192) have a list of large project types in order of cost-overrun statistics.
The data come from 16,000 projects in 25 types.
The top three (worst) are nuclear waste storage, Olympic games, and nuclear power plants.
The bottom three (best) are wind power, energy transmission, and solar power.
They point out that the worst are one-off, non-modular systems.
The best are modular systems, built from multiple factory-built components.
 

Offline JustMeHereTopic starter

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #17 on: August 03, 2023, 04:54:21 pm »
 

Offline JustMeHereTopic starter

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #18 on: August 03, 2023, 04:55:44 pm »
Not sure why the post above won't format correctly.....

Speaking of windmills....see prior post.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #19 on: August 03, 2023, 11:20:57 pm »
You are correct. Lawsuits, I had forgotten about those.

Indeed, even if the suit is lost or is dismissed, the fear they impart on the potential investors for the cost overruns, will make them to run away from such a project.
 

Offline rstofer

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #20 on: August 04, 2023, 05:27:48 pm »
You would think that .gov backed loans would smooth the process except that the .gov changes periodically.  Like our pipeline projects!

If we had power outages during this record hot spell, I bet nuclear would be back on the table.  Fortunately, the grid has held up.  At least in California...
 

Offline Ground_Loop

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2023, 11:25:14 pm »
New reactor came online in the USA this week.  1,100 Gigawatts. 

Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel. 

https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/

We're not happy.  GA Power badgered our Public Service Commission into allowing fees to offset construction costs for this thing.  That on top of increased rates due to "rising fuel costs."  Fifty percent of my bill is fees and taxes.  And summer basic rates are nearly double the rest of the year.  While the unit is new, the facility is decades old, which makes the final cost that much more sinful.
There's no point getting old if you don't have stories.
 

Offline karpouzi

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2023, 11:33:35 am »
Should be the first of many new generation plants. Fossil fuel emissions are an urgent problem and renewables aren't going to take up the slack by themselves.
 

Online ejeffrey

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2023, 06:47:10 pm »

Lawsuits cause delays and delays cost money - lots of money.  The game plan of the anti-nukes has always been to drive the cost so high that nobody would think of building a project.

Lawsuits played no meaningful role in the Vogtle delays or the delays that ended up killing the Summer reactor project.  The problem was the design was incomplete and effective when they stated building it, so bad that Westinghouse went out of business.  They had to redesign major parts during the construction and then had repeated collosal project management failures.
 

Offline TimFox

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Re: Great Scott 1.21 (almost) Jigowatts -- new reactor in USA
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2023, 06:58:41 pm »
You are correct. Lawsuits, I had forgotten about those.

Indeed, even if the suit is lost or is dismissed, the fear they impart on the potential investors for the cost overruns, will make them to run away from such a project.

The authors of the book I cited above looked at projects in the US and PRC, where lawsuits, nimbyism, and other factors differ considerably.  They found similar patterns in project overruns to those I mentioned in that post, in the two countries.
 


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