EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: JustMeHere on August 02, 2023, 08:45:03 am
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New reactor came online in the USA this week. 1,1
00 Gigawatts.
Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel.
https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/ (https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/)
EDIT: fixed unit conversion.
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New reactor came online in the USA this week. 1,100 Gigawatts.
Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel.
https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/ (https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/)
I think it is 1,100 Megawatts.
1,100 Gigawatts would be enough to power the whole of USA and have some left over for Canada and Mexico.
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
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New reactor came online in the USA this week. 1,100 Gigawatts.
Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel.
https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/ (https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/)
I think it is 1,100 Megawatts.
1,100 Gigawatts would be enough to power the whole of USA and have some left over for Canada and Mexico.
Yes 1.1 Gigawatts. Sorry was late.
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school. Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
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It's not enough for the DeLorean! Whaaaa.
Nuclear or green energy, it doesn't matter - you will get ripped off and fork out extra billions.
"... both units will finish years behind schedule and billions over initial cost estimates. The main contractor on the units fell into bankruptcy and some of the project’s co-owners have sued Georgia Power over the rising costs."
"Georgia Power ratepayers started paying for the two units in their monthly bills years ago."
"U.S. Department of Energy (DOE) says the country needs to expand its nuclear fleet. The agency supported the Vogtle project with $12 billion in guaranteed loans."
I worked on Westinghouse WDPF-based control systems, they are turnkey for coal and nuke plants.
The redundant data highway kept failing, for years. The second comm channel keeps the plant running though. Every board possible sent in for repair $10,000's spent on RMA's.
One day the data highway (redundant, second channel) went down again and I got pissed off. I did the unthinkable, put an ohmmeter across it and got 75 ohms. Thing is, it's terminated at both ends. So that meant an open circuit.
Anyway, a lot of walking around the plant undoing connectors and taking readings I found the problem was a bad bulkhead connector for the coax data highway.
Most were made in USA but a bunch of made in china parts were in there that did not make a good connection. Shit tolerances, wrong size pins, no gold.
Westinghouse charges premium pricing for all parts on these control systems, as a massive cash cow.
I'm not sure if they changed out all of them or just the dud. Vibration in the room where racks were was fairly high due to data room air conditioning and the coal mills caused regular earthquakes if the coal was hard, as well as generator carbon brush dust all over the boards despite filtration.
Reliability is not really any better IMHO.
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They should have waited a month and build it with room temperature superconductors...
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school. Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
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anything new about this reactor, or is it same old high pressure water cooled reactor designs as in past?
the link straight up pops a paywall, would be good if possible to screenscrape a part of the article
perhaps ?
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anything new about this reactor, or is it same old high pressure water cooled reactor designs as in past?
the link straight up pops a paywall, would be good if possible to screenscrape a part of the article
perhaps ?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant
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When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
Since TMI was made dramatically worse by operators misunderstanding the readouts, I think when the *** hits the fan you want to have a system designed to give the most relevant information presented in a way that allows you to efficiently make correct decisions.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vogtle_Electric_Generating_Plant
some very interesting reads and so is the related start of the bankruptcy of Westinghouse.
At the inception of this reactor, the capabilities to build such large projects was very diminished.
I wonder if Westinghouse had grown the capabilities in-house rather than sub contracting out
would have been more successful? seeing how Tesla has more less totally built up car manufacturing
in-house and majority of its production ability, from being near virgins to that industry. It took a while
but seems very successful.
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When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
Since TMI was made dramatically worse by operators misunderstanding the readouts, I think when the *** hits the fan you want to have a system designed to give the most relevant information presented in a way that allows you to efficiently make correct decisions.
Its layers, readable clear well designed is great when it can be supplied. No disagreement. Then Fukushima with technicians scrambling to get batteries. I'm a big fan of inherent safety/stability but unexpected/catastrophic events will occur and at that point independent mechanical backups are less likely to be inoperative.
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I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?
I know, I know, there will be “rainy days”. But this is the rule, not the exception, and if one is experienced at managing these projects, one plans ahead for the inevitable setbacks.
My theory, and that is only my personal theory: that when the project is first developed, the costs and timeframe are low balled in other to win the contract.
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I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?
I know, I know, there will be “rainy days”. But this is the rule, not the exception, and if one is experienced at managing these projects, one plans ahead for the inevitable setbacks.
My theory, and that is only my personal theory: that when the project is first developed, the costs and timeframe are low balled in other to win the contract.
Lawsuits cause delays and delays cost money - lots of money. The game plan of the anti-nukes has always been to drive the cost so high that nobody would think of building a project.
I added a contingency line item to every project I ever worked on. It was removed by Finance on every project I ever worked on. So, I continued to include the line item on future projects so Finance could make their contribution to cost containment but I also buried another copy in each of the various line items.
California is just damned lucky that Diablo Canyon Nuclear Power Plant didn't shut down on schedule or we would be in serious trouble with this heat wave. Apparently the Governor thought it should stay open for another 20 years. Not the answer his supporters wanted!
PG&E gets $1.1bn from Feds to not shut it down:
https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-approves-conditional-funding-diablo-canyon-nuclear-power-plant-2022-11-21 (https://www.reuters.com/business/energy/us-approves-conditional-funding-diablo-canyon-nuclear-power-plant-2022-11-21)
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I get the fact that these projects are so enormous and complex that it defies comprehension for us mere mortal beings.
But, but… a large engineering organization, whose raison d’être is precisely to build such projects, how can they miss their delivery-dates and budget targets for so much?
How much time and money do you spend estimating a job you probably won't get? You make somewhat reasonable assumptions and price accordingly. Meanwhile the customer is making scope changes throughout the process. Some changes are bigger than others. Then the lawyers show up!
Remember, the interest on the construction loans keeps building while the anti-nukers keep litigating. Construction loans aren't cheap no matter how they're funded. The plant is eating money until the day it starts generating.
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B Flyvbjerg and D Gardner in their recent book "How Big Things Get Done" (Currency 2023, p 192) have a list of large project types in order of cost-overrun statistics.
The data come from 16,000 projects in 25 types.
The top three (worst) are nuclear waste storage, Olympic games, and nuclear power plants.
The bottom three (best) are wind power, energy transmission, and solar power.
They point out that the worst are one-off, non-modular systems.
The best are modular systems, built from multiple factory-built components.
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The bottom three (best) are wind power, energy transmission, and solar power.
Speaking of windmills:
https://www.facebook.com/gogoater/videos/2639172646223366 (https://www.facebook.com/gogoater/videos/2639172646223366)
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Not sure why the post above won't format correctly.....
Speaking of windmills....see prior post.
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You are correct. Lawsuits, I had forgotten about those.
Indeed, even if the suit is lost or is dismissed, the fear they impart on the potential investors for the cost overruns, will make them to run away from such a project.
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You would think that .gov backed loans would smooth the process except that the .gov changes periodically. Like our pipeline projects!
If we had power outages during this record hot spell, I bet nuclear would be back on the table. Fortunately, the grid has held up. At least in California...
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New reactor came online in the USA this week. 1,100 Gigawatts.
Makes you realize how much power it takes to time travel.
https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/ (https://www.ajc.com/news/first-new-vogtle-nuclear-reactor-enters-operation-making-history/QUW3BTDRJRDT7MRWB3UHLRWX4A/)
We're not happy. GA Power badgered our Public Service Commission into allowing fees to offset construction costs for this thing. That on top of increased rates due to "rising fuel costs." Fifty percent of my bill is fees and taxes. And summer basic rates are nearly double the rest of the year. While the unit is new, the facility is decades old, which makes the final cost that much more sinful.
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Should be the first of many new generation plants. Fossil fuel emissions are an urgent problem and renewables aren't going to take up the slack by themselves.
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Lawsuits cause delays and delays cost money - lots of money. The game plan of the anti-nukes has always been to drive the cost so high that nobody would think of building a project.
Lawsuits played no meaningful role in the Vogtle delays or the delays that ended up killing the Summer reactor project. The problem was the design was incomplete and effective when they stated building it, so bad that Westinghouse went out of business. They had to redesign major parts during the construction and then had repeated collosal project management failures.
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You are correct. Lawsuits, I had forgotten about those.
Indeed, even if the suit is lost or is dismissed, the fear they impart on the potential investors for the cost overruns, will make them to run away from such a project.
The authors of the book I cited above looked at projects in the US and PRC, where lawsuits, nimbyism, and other factors differ considerably. They found similar patterns in project overruns to those I mentioned in that post, in the two countries.
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Should be the first of many new generation plants. Fossil fuel emissions are an urgent problem and renewables aren't going to take up the slack by themselves.
There are no new nuclear plants even seriously in the planning stage in the US and it's unthinkable that other than Vogtle reactors 3 and 4, any new nuclear power will come online before 2030. Even with a dramatically increased nuclear program it would probably be 2040 at the earliest before we could see a significant impact on the total US generation mix. All the while renewable energy is deploying the equivalent of 5 large nuclear plants per year, doing it cheaper and on time.
We should build more nuclear plants for the long run, but they are completely incapable of addressing anything "urgently". That needed to happen a decade or more ago. In fact it did happen with the Summer and Vogtle projects but they turned into catastrophes. Now, instead of having a dozen or more plants under construction we have no new projects. The nuclear industry had its chance and failed. It was not due to lack of government support, NIMBY, or environmental interference, but due to being unable to deliver on promises.
Of course mileage may vary in other countries, but mostly everywhere but China and India are mostly moving away from nuclear and would take years to reverse those trends.
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ONLY 1.1 gigawatts?
Great River Energy's Coal Creek Station in North Dakota puts out 1.15 gigawatts...
GRE was months away from shutting down the plant (and starting demolition) as part of its effort to purge coal from its portfolio when two other groups stepped forward to buy the plant and its +/- 400kV DC line.
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And one day they'll discover that the windmills are slowing the rotational velocity of the earth.
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ONLY 1.1 gigawatts?
Great River Energy's Coal Creek Station in North Dakota puts out 1.15 gigawatts...
That's from two generators. The two new reactors here are 1.1 GWe each, so very nearly twice the size of those coal generators. And the existing two operational reactors at the Vogtle plant are about 1.2 GWe each, so the total site should be producing around 4.6 GW once the fourth reactor is operating at capacity.
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For Info, just to the north of these reactors are tritium reactors for making nukes, and just to the east of these reactors is where the neutrino was discovered.
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It's kind of funny when talking to those who support nuclear power. In the US, all you need to do to kill any thought of building nuclear power plants is to say the US government will not guarantee loans, and will not guarantee the price paid for the power generated. Then no one will put a penny into any part of building these monster projects.
People focus on how safe the operation is, how we've had so few accidents (if you phrase is just right, you can say zero) and how little existing nuclear power costs. But they don't look at what it takes to build new construction for nuclear.
The two new reactors which failed in South Carolina bankrupted Westinghouse Nuclear. That's quite a clear indication that new construction of nuclear power generation is pretty much dead in the US.
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school. Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared:[attachimg=1]
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school. Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
When the *** hits the fan its nice to have mechanical/non-electrical measurements that are standalone/reliable or at least as a double check.
At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared: (Attachment Link)
That could very well be Windows Embedded Industrial. I've seen that before on ATMs.
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Or that particularly workstation could just be a standard Windows desktop and not a critical part of the reactor control system.
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Or that particularly workstation could just be a standard Windows desktop and not a critical part of the reactor control system.
Even if it is a non-critical part, no one is going to upgrade the OS unless there is a reason. I recall they used Windows NT on a US naval vessel which had some fatal error that nearly stranded the ship. The point of sticking with NT was because it was a known entity, but in the end, known or not, Windows was just not stable enough to depend on.
Maybe they should have used OS/2?
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At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared: (Attachment Link)
Got a laugh from me, but that's a file photo from 2016 from when they opened the simulation facility.
The main plant indicator displays in the background run on QNX.
The main plant controllers are modular units based on apparently MC68360 MCUs. ( https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf (https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf) )
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At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared: (Attachment Link)
Got a laugh from me, but that's a file photo from 2016 from when they opened the simulation facility.
The main plant indicator displays in the background run on QNX.
The main plant controllers are modular units based on apparently MC68360 MCUs. ( https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf (https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf) )
Things must move awfully slow in the world of nuclear control electronics if they were still using MC68360s as late as 2018, as indicated by the brochure date. I would have thought that the MC68360 was well and truly obsolete by then.
I considered the MC68360 for a project in 2003 but decided it was too long in the tooth even back then. I used its successor, the PowerQUICC, instead and even that chip is now obsolete.
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At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared: (Attachment Link)
Got a laugh from me, but that's a file photo from 2016 from when they opened the simulation facility.
The main plant indicator displays in the background run on QNX.
The main plant controllers are modular units based on apparently MC68360 MCUs. ( https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf (https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf) )
Things must move awfully slow in the world of nuclear control electronics if they were still using MC68360s as late as 2018, as indicated by the brochure date. I would have thought that the MC68360 was well and truly obsolete by then.
I considered the MC68360 for a project in 2003 but decided it was too long in the tooth even back then. I used its successor, the PowerQUICC, instead and even that chip is now obsolete.
Like the military, everything has to be qualified, a very expensive process. So, if it ain't broke, don't fix it.
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
Those consoles with huge Stackpole/Sealectro switches are totally old-school. Modern controls systems with screens that reconfigure to show diagrammatically what the system is doing are much better for human-machine interface.
Jon
But they'll never be as cool as this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfuuWfyP6Y (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CXfuuWfyP6Y)
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I feel like I've been Rick rolled.
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A $30 billion dollar plant, and this is what you get for a control room? https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html (https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/first-class-of-vogtle-3--4-nuclear-operators-pass-nrc-licensing-exam-300346151.html) . I suppose they charge extra if you want real lights, switches and gauges. "Shoulda bought an RBMK!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEZ1m7QPuS4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEZ1m7QPuS4)
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At least they didn't skimp on the operating system - note the logo on the screen at the bottom center! :scared: (Attachment Link)
Got a laugh from me, but that's a file photo from 2016 from when they opened the simulation facility.
The main plant indicator displays in the background run on QNX.
The main plant controllers are modular units based on apparently MC68360 MCUs. ( https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf (https://www.westinghousenuclear.com/Portals/0/operating%20plant%20services/automation/safety%20related%20platforms/NA-0113%20Common%20Q%20Platform.pdf) )
And it's got a "data highway"! Now this is a real data highway: https://www.showmecables.com/14-awg-50-conductor-600v-stranded-conductor-unshielded-vntc-tray-cable-per-foot (https://www.showmecables.com/14-awg-50-conductor-600v-stranded-conductor-unshielded-vntc-tray-cable-per-foot) ;D
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the link straight up pops a paywall, would be good if possible to screenscrape a part of the article perhaps ?
I take your paywall and raise you to GDPR stupidity:-
[attach=1]