General > General Technical Chat
Grumpy rant #783
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Gyro:
I can't say I'm a fan of USB power socket outlets.

- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?
- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).
- Thirdly there has to be an to increased fire risk as socket quality and dodgy knock-offs fakes falls off the cliff to lowest cost. Not to mention spurious RCD tripping on circuits (with fridges, freezers etc) when one goes rougue.
- Fourthly, ncreased replacement cost - by an Electrician for most consumers  / countries.

The idea of installing USB wiring around the house, presumably from some master PSU, with multiple outputs in the case of USB-C (you don't want all of your 5V devices getting hit with higher USB voltages when one device requests them), seems like a non starter to me. The cable csa needed to maintain USB voltage tolerance specs at low voltage and  high current just doesn't sound economical.

Far better to have a nice rugged mains outlet and plug format ( ;)), capable of supporting a modern plug top adapter that can be plugged in and removed as required.

*
themadhippy:

--- Quote ---- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).
--- End quote ---
Cant recall the make,but someone was touting  a socket were the usb could be turned off for testing,fine for initial verification but come on, how many unscrew every socket on a periodic test,and it seems mk have made  the same mistake with the new smart socket.
coppice:

--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

--- End quote ---
This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.


--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).

--- End quote ---
Do these things even comply with the wiring regulations in any country requiring full testing of installation quality? Don't those tests usually require all the appliances be disconnected for testing?


--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Thirdly there has to be an to increased fire risk as socket quality and dodgy knock-offs fakes falls off the cliff to lowest cost. Not to mention spurious RCD tripping on circuits (with fridges, freezers etc) when one goes rougue.

--- End quote ---
This is a BIG BIG issue. Even the well known brands of electrical fittings seem to be sourcing their electronics packed fittings from less than top tier sources,


--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Fourthly, increased replacement cost - by an Electrician for most consumers  / countries.

--- End quote ---
The typical lifetime of a USB socket, both from a wearout point of view and a relevance point of view, is going to be far less than simple electrical fittings. Most of the USB supply loaded sockets fitted to date are already standing idle, because they don't output enough power to suit 2023's needs. They will be playing catch up for years, as people's expectations of USB keep moving on.
Gyro:

--- Quote from: coppice on October 13, 2023, 08:33:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

--- End quote ---
This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.

--- End quote ---

From the video, they pull about 1W each with no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...


--- Quote ---
--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Secondly, they restrict insulation testing of the house wiring installation (without going around and disconnecting and looping out each one).

--- End quote ---
Do these things even comply with the wiring regulations in any country requiring full testing of installation quality? Don't those tests usually require all the appliances be disconnected for testing?

--- End quote ---

Yes, that's the traditional method, disconnect everything and insulation test at 500V. Any circuit that has active items that can't be disconnected must either be insulation tested at a lower voltage (230V) or put down as a limitation (untested) on the EICR report. What with modern wireless LED lighting controls, USB outlets [Edit: and smart sockets as themadhippy says], there will hardly be a circuit left that can be properly insulation tested. As far as compliance, yes I believe they are covered in the IEE wiring regs.
coppice:

--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 08:50:39 pm ---
--- Quote from: coppice on October 13, 2023, 08:33:28 pm ---
--- Quote from: Gyro on October 13, 2023, 07:36:10 pm ---- Firstly they become part of the house permanent wiring, constantly drawing standby current*, multiplied by how many room outlets?

--- End quote ---
This depends a lot on design quality. If each thing sitting in a power socket - USB outlet, power monitor, wifi switch, etc - takes a only a few milliwatts of standby power, which they could, you need a lot of them to take even 1W. That's fine. The snag is just how well most of these things are actually designed for standby power? The EU seems addicted to efficiency marking products. They really should do something here. This one might actually be useful.

--- End quote ---

From the video, they pull about 1W each with no load. Multiply that by maybe 20+ in a new build...

--- End quote ---

1W or 1VA? 1W would be a ridiculous amount of idle power in a small PSU. 1VA is more understandable, as the low load PF can be awful in simple supplies.
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