Counterfeit Culture

[nanofrog]

We have many words for imitation, or copy.

Do they have a negative connotation though (shame, unethical, ...)? Or are they about as benign as a word such as "pencil"? 

I'd really like to understand this if you can help.

Imitating something, lets just say the Chinese aren't the best. it is reported that in the 70s, we tried to imitate the Boeing 707. Chinese engineers took apart a 707, and built a replica. Afterwards, neither would fly.

Even if true, they've come a long way since then. Lots of trial and error combined with Western know-how being imported (universities, interning in companies in the West, or even Westerners that have gone there to train). Explains why they've gotten a lot better at producing fakes/counterfeits IMHO.

[Kjelt]

Imitating something, lets just say the Chinese aren't the best.

yet.... the japanese were also very big copiers in the 1920's..1960's look where they are now 

[echen1024]

We have many words for imitation, or copy.

Do they have a negative connotation though (shame, unethical, ...)? Or are they about as benign as a word such as "pencil"? 

I'd really like to understand this if you can help.

Imitating something, lets just say the Chinese aren't the best. it is reported that in the 70s, we tried to imitate the Boeing 707. Chinese engineers took apart a 707, and built a replica. Afterwards, neither would fly.

Even if true, they've come a long way since then. Lots of trial and error combined with Western know-how being imported (universities, interning in companies in the West, or even Westerners that have gone there to train). Explains why they've gotten a lot better at producing fakes/counterfeits IMHO.

A lot have negative connotations. They are supposedly benign words, like Zao Zia, which is literally "Make fake," however, it refers to fake goods or electronics in a negative way. Likewise, Dao Ban means illicit, but it is the term applied to all things that were made through circumventing copyright laws or license codes. Just like how when I talk to my EE friends in CHina, they refer to my Rigol licenses as Dao Ban.

[c4757p]

Colleague of mine says that the chinese do not have a verb for copy or copying and that imitating something someone else has made is considered to be a high honour   
Any native chinese or chinese expert that can confirm this or bust this myth? 

We have many words for imitation, or copy.

Slightly OT..... but people, this often-heard myth "$X do not have a word for $Y" is 99.99999% of the time completely false. Language has existed for many thousands of years; we have invented a word for everything worth saying, many times over. Sometimes it's actually a phrase rather than a single word, but the distinction is blurred in many languages anyway. (Particularly Chinese.)

How many words do the Inuit have for snow, again?

[nanofrog]

A lot have negative connotations. They are supposedly benign words, like Zao Zia, which is literally "Make fake," however, it refers to fake goods or electronics in a negative way. Likewise, Dao Ban means illicit, but it is the term applied to all things that were made through circumventing copyright laws or license codes. Just like how when I talk to my EE friends in CHina, they refer to my Rigol licenses as Dao Ban.

OK, so it doesn't seem that different than in the West then (seen as dishonest, unethical, ....). Easy enough. I think, so please bear with me.

I would assume then, it's a combination of economics (greed) as the motivating factor to go ahead and do such things, despite it being culturally disapproved of. Or is this not the case?

Assuming I'm on the right path to understand at least some of the details, I'm still wondering why doesn't anyone say, let alone do anything to change the pattern. Does the cultural aspect of being polite, whether they're employed at such a facility (economic due to job loss) or not is so strong that people keep their mouths shut even if they have no interest whatsoever in such a company?

[smashedProton]

Of course counterfeits are dangerous. You bought a new 747, and you need to fix the engines. You could use a genuine turbine blade, but that costs $800. I could spend $400 and buy a counterfeit blade, but it snaps off and it gets sucked in and the plane blows up. That is a situation where counterfeits are unacceptable. But tell me. Is a fake apple charger cable really that dangerous?

Add two zeroes to those figures and they may be realistic 

[smashedProton]

I bought a 64GB MicroSD card from AliExpress for about $15. The pictures showed Samsung on it and when I got it, it said Samsung, but the real 64GB cards had a white logo and this one had a blue one. It also flaked off when rubbing.

I ran it through a SD card diagnostics program and it said the card was good but the serial number and manufacturer were both zeros.

I did a complaint on AliExpress and said basically I would have still bought the generic SD card at this price but the fact that I was deceived with a major manufacturer logo was wrong and asked for a 50% refund and the seller agreed.

You go through that much effort for a 15 dollar purchase?

[c4757p]

I bought a 64GB MicroSD card from AliExpress for about $15. The pictures showed Samsung on it and when I got it, it said Samsung, but the real 64GB cards had a white logo and this one had a blue one. It also flaked off when rubbing.

I ran it through a SD card diagnostics program and it said the card was good but the serial number and manufacturer were both zeros.

I did a complaint on AliExpress and said basically I would have still bought the generic SD card at this price but the fact that I was deceived with a major manufacturer logo was wrong and asked for a 50% refund and the seller agreed.

You go through that much effort for a 15 dollar purchase?

I try to negotiate (partial) refund or replacement any time I don't get precisely what was advertised. I don't care if it was $2, I worked for that $2.

[echen1024]

Of course counterfeits are dangerous. You bought a new 747, and you need to fix the engines. You could use a genuine turbine blade, but that costs $800. I could spend $400 and buy a counterfeit blade, but it snaps off and it gets sucked in and the plane blows up. That is a situation where counterfeits are unacceptable. But tell me. Is a fake apple charger cable really that dangerous?

Add two zeroes to those figures and they may be realistic 

Probably. I wasn't thinking.

[SeanB]

Try another 2 zeros for some parts.

[echen1024]

A lot have negative connotations. They are supposedly benign words, like Zao Zia, which is literally "Make fake," however, it refers to fake goods or electronics in a negative way. Likewise, Dao Ban means illicit, but it is the term applied to all things that were made through circumventing copyright laws or license codes. Just like how when I talk to my EE friends in CHina, they refer to my Rigol licenses as Dao Ban.

OK, so it doesn't seem that different than in the West then (seen as dishonest, unethical, ....). Easy enough. I think, so please bear with me.

I would assume then, it's a combination of economics (greed) as the motivating factor to go ahead and do such things, despite it being culturally disapproved of. Or is this not the case?

Assuming I'm on the right path to understand at least some of the details, I'm still wondering why doesn't anyone say, let alone do anything to change the pattern. Does the cultural aspect of being polite, whether they're employed at such a facility (economic due to job loss) or not is so strong that people keep their mouths shut even if they have no interest whatsoever in such a company?

In China, if you have an opportunity to make or save a quick buck, you take it. Another reason is money, or the lack thereof. The salaries for technical workers is still quite low. The salary for a software engineer is around USD 30,000. And that is at a high paying company like Baidu. People making 30k a year will not go spend several hundreds or thousands of dollars on something like Altium ($7245) or Visual Studio ultimate ($4,200) whether for company use or for personal hobby. The most important reason is the culture. Even in high earning families, for example, my aunts. My aunt runs her own distribution company for supermarkets, and her husband is in a high level management position at a large Chinese shipping company. They probably have over $2 million USD/year in earnings, yet when asked to pay $120 for a copy of Windows, they decide to go for the illicit copy for $5. The only reason illicit software has proliferated in china is the fact that there is no one to control them. And when the people are presented with the option to save several hundred or thousand dollars, they will take it. No one is yelling for change. The people selling bootlegged programs make money, and people to poor to otherwise afford Windows or Office can get the programs that they need, and the rich can enjoy themselves at the same time. Here in the US, if there was illicit software for 1% of the price of an official copy at Fry's, hey, I would buy the bootlegged version. Same goes in China, just that there is no one to clamp down. Which explains my copy of Altium...

edit: I remember my aunt complaining to me that there was this one supermarket that used the timestamp of when an order was placed, and created a MD5 hash of that number as the order number. Her company would always process the order at the time they received it and was cleared, which was always a few seconds off, so therefore, they would create an order number, and deliver the goods to the next day. Afterwards, at the end of the month, when they billed them for the orders, they would claim the order numbers did not match, and therefore refuse to pay. In the end, they would offer a "courtesy gesture" by paying 50%. It went on, however, this was one of Beijing's largest supermarket chains, and they were afraid to sour the relationship. Finally, I investigated a bit for her, and told her what was going on. As you can expect, the CEO was directly confronted.

Wow that was a long post. Some of you guys might want to kill me by now. 

[Lurch]

edit: I remember my aunt complaining to me that there was this one supermarket that used the timestamp of when an order was placed, and created a MD5 hash of that number as the order number. Her company would always process the order at the time they received it and was cleared, which was always a few seconds off, so therefore, they would create an order number, and deliver the goods to the next day. Afterwards, at the end of the month, when they billed them for the orders, they would claim the order numbers did not match, and therefore refuse to pay. In the end, they would offer a "courtesy gesture" by paying 50%. It went on, however, this was one of Beijing's largest supermarket chains, and they were afraid to sour the relationship. Finally, I investigated a bit for her, and told her what was going on. As you can expect, the CEO was directly confronted.

Not saying you're wrong, but I don't follow this. The customer kept saying 'no-order number of that here' and then your aunt just shrugging her shoulders and saying 'OK, no problem'? If that worked then I could do that with every order I put in, just claim that their order number was different to mine and then make one up.

[echen1024]

edit: I remember my aunt complaining to me that there was this one supermarket that used the timestamp of when an order was placed, and created a MD5 hash of that number as the order number. Her company would always process the order at the time they received it and was cleared, which was always a few seconds off, so therefore, they would create an order number, and deliver the goods to the next day. Afterwards, at the end of the month, when they billed them for the orders, they would claim the order numbers did not match, and therefore refuse to pay. In the end, they would offer a "courtesy gesture" by paying 50%. It went on, however, this was one of Beijing's largest supermarket chains, and they were afraid to sour the relationship. Finally, I investigated a bit for her, and told her what was going on. As you can expect, the CEO was directly confronted.

Not saying you're wrong, but I don't follow this. The customer kept saying 'no-order number of that here' and then your aunt just shrugging her shoulders and saying 'OK, no problem'? If that worked then I could do that with every order I put in, just claim that their order number was different to mine and then make one up.

No, the authorities were called, however, nothing happened, yet they were unwilling to kill off the deal since just a few stores were doing this, and to kill the deal meant millions a year lost.

[Shock]

It was at that point a signed receipt of shipped goods revolutionized China.

[amyk]

Another reason is money, or the lack thereof. The salaries for technical workers is still quite low. The salary for a software engineer is around USD 30,000. And that is at a high paying company like Baidu.

Also keep in mind that USD 30k plenty to live comfortably there, since everything else is so cheap...

[Kjelt]

The salary for a software engineer is around USD 30,000. 

I heard that in Shanghai due to the high cost of living the salaries are already pretty close to the european salaries which would be around double that amount.
I hope they keep rising, that would be a good development for software engineers in the US and Europe 

[echen1024]

Want to live in a big city? Cheap? Bullshit. Average house prices in Beijing average $2/3000/sqm and will climb up to $7-9k in the nicer regions(school, proximity to center, etc..)

[Kjelt]

wouldn't count on it. That just means everything will move to places like India.

India the salaries are already on that level for the good engineers. And as any western company will probably have experience with, there are issues with outsourcing coding to india 

[echen1024]

wouldn't count on it. That just means everything will move to places like India.

India the salaries are already on that level for the good engineers. And as any western company will probably have experience with, there are issues with outsourcing coding to india 

Yes. Nothing ever gets done. At Halliburton, the deadlines for the India are 2 months earlier than the deadlines in America for the same project.

[iceisfun]

The worst... MTG cards

There are some damn good ones out there too

[vk6zgo]

Imitating something, lets just say the Chinese aren't the best.

yet.... the japanese were also very big copiers in the 1920's..1960's look where they are now 

"Copying" in itself isn't a bad thing,very few designs are truly innovative.
For example,in analog TVs,the horizontal output circuit is basically the same over multiple manufacturers .

It is good practice to imitate the construction & design standards of industry leaders.

If you are making Test Instruments,see how Tektronix,Fluke,or Agilent does things.
They don't do it for fun,so it will help you make a better product.

Counterfeit is something else,again.

[station240]

A lot of cheep components come off the same production line as the expensive parts, so are the same quality; at the end of the main run. Or are produced without the knowledge of the original purchasers.

https://www.sparkfun.com/news/395

"... that die in the picture is pre-release engineering material. Where the hell did you find that?"

[Stonent]

wouldn't count on it. That just means everything will move to places like India.

India the salaries are already on that level for the good engineers. And as any western company will probably have experience with, there are issues with outsourcing coding to india 

Yes. Nothing ever gets done. At Halliburton, the deadlines for the India are 2 months earlier than the deadlines in America for the same project.

The way I see it done frequently is things like programming go to India because they can easily get a lot of people right out of school to do the work cheaply. Sometimes they use the PRC, but I think India has a higher percentage of people fluent in English. I don't see much going to Hong Kong despite the high percentage of English fluency, probably because the cost of living is higher than India. (just a guess)

[Kjelt]

"Copying" in itself isn't a bad thing,very few designs are truly innovative.
......
It is good practice to imitate the construction & design standards of industry leaders.
If you are making Test Instruments,see how Tektronix,Fluke,or Agilent does things.
They don't do it for fun,so it will help you make a better product.
Counterfeit is something else,again. 

Well what if an A brand company invests millions of dollars in just getting the pcb layout right, for instance the RF spectrum analyzer stuff Dave showed a while back. Takes a lot of trial and error to get such a state of the art pcb correct. Can´t protect the layout with patents.
So another company buys one of their products and copies the entire pcb design and then sells those equipment for a fifth of the price of the A brand because they do not have to spent so much money inventing it they don´t have to earn back that money. The A brand can not earn back their investment and after a few generations quits that business in total so no more research. If that is going to be reality there will be no more new and innovative products 
The problem is that a lot of copying of parts of the design and designs by themselves can be very disruptive for innovation and investments. The end user will not see that because he enjoys his `cheap` equipment that performs almost the same as the very expensive one. But it hurts innovative companies and their employees.

[vk6zgo]

Brand A's design is probably the application of basic design principles devised by company "X" thirty years before.

Particularly,with RF circuitry,you can make a perfect copy & still not achieve the same results,whereas the original designer knows the limitations & tradeoffs involved.

There is always the temptation to say " I don't think they need that much shielding.",or " It's a lot cheaper to make that track curve as a right angle".

I have fairly recently experienced this in a UHF Transmitter design,where the test board circuit from a manufacturer's app note was copied without knowing why things were done.

In an RF Amplifier circuit,two of these layouts which were driven in parallel,were placed nice & close to each other on the same PCB,reducing the cooling of the LDMOS devices.

They were fed through a hybrid,& the output combined in the same way.
It was "much cheaper" to use marginal inbalance load resistors at the output,so they did.

Even so,all might have been well,if both amplifiers on the board were tuned for the same frequency range,but no!

They copied the chip capacitor values exactly,& positioned them identically,so with normal variations in the LDMOS characteristics,the response curves were sufficiently different to create enough imbalance to cook the unbalance loads.

On top of this,none of the amplifiers were optimised for the frequency we were using---more inefficiency,more loss,more heat!-----But they were perfect copies!

I won't say where they came from,but I bet you can guess!