Author Topic: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"  (Read 18641 times)

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Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2018, 07:34:40 pm »
And people thought that Tesla was crazy because of his attempts to send power wirelessly.  :o
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2018, 10:12:42 pm »
Quote
So unless they have extensive shielding and filtering

I am reminded that aircraft use 400Hz or so (albeit rather than chopped DC). Although the airframe is pretty much a faraday cage they presumably have serious filtering to protect the internal electronics?
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #27 on: February 16, 2018, 10:40:41 pm »
Quote
So unless they have extensive shielding and filtering

I am reminded that aircraft use 400Hz or so (albeit rather than chopped DC). Although the airframe is pretty much a faraday cage they presumably have serious filtering to protect the internal electronics?

Absolutely, the wires have mesh shielding like coax does. Sometimes even multiple layers.


Also, "Touch Safe" "High Voltage" :bullshit: If it's so "safe" then show someone grabbing the two conductors. Or better yet, LICK IT! Bet you they won't! The only way for that to be possible is if the current shuts off faster than your nerves conduct. But even then it's impossible to tell a legit load from a person across the lines. They might just be using some sort of GFI, but that's only to ground, not across the conductors! Not "touch safe"! :--
« Last Edit: February 16, 2018, 10:54:22 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #28 on: February 16, 2018, 11:53:57 pm »
The short pulse won't kill you, will it? They say that another doesn't get sent until the remote agrees that the prior one was safe, so if they have some way of detecting a problem that should solve that.

But... what, and how, can be detected? I am thinking that the sender can say how my power there was in the pulse and the receiver can check that the same amount arrived. Would that detect a potentially fatal grab? I am not expert enough, but I am also reminded of the table saw safety feature that shot a bolt into the saw if it detected a finger about to be chopped. On the face of it I would have said it couldn't possibly react fast enough, but I've seen the videos of saveloys being shoved in and coming out unmarked. I note that no-one ever used a real finger in a demo.

It's probably worth pointing out that 'non-fatal' doesn't necessarily mean 'unnoticeable'. If you got a tingle, even a large one, I think that would count as working but would ensure you wouldn't keep doing it just to see if it works. Whilst safety devices should be tested often, you don't test them for real - you /have/ to allow that this one time it won't work. Doesn't invalidate the device, though, since it only has to work once to have been useful.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2018, 12:02:44 am »
50/60Hz power cables cause enough problems without converting it to 600Hz 336V square waves.

Could you please tell where you see square waves? Waveforms shown in patent applications are far from square wave. I don't think that they are so stupid to do such an simple mistake - make product with EMI issues.

 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #30 on: February 17, 2018, 12:21:35 am »
For any device to work it needs to have continuous power. To get continuous power with their stupid pulse system you need big capacitor banks and send a lot of energy in the short bursts for the capacitors to keep enough charge. So now your sending an even larger amount of energy at one time down the wires, even if it's pulsed. So it will only kill you faster! It only takes 1A to kill! And any living body is just a resistance, it's scientifically impossible to tell if it's a person or a proper load across conductors. Unless they are using some sort of reflective impedance testing, in which case that's more needless :bullshit: over normal power. Even if it didn't kill you, it would be a horrible experience, not like the ZZZZZZZ of AC, more like BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG-BANG... The capacitors would just explode you into little pieces.

So the only way this would be safe is if it's below lethal limits, or uses some complex impedance testing (that runs continuously at that!). In which case, it would be trivial to just use sinewave AC or continuous DC, without all this over-complicated :bullshit: that's just going to create a ton of noise and wasted power! This is beyond Juicero level stupid, this is electrode-water-heater level stupid! :palm:
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #31 on: February 17, 2018, 12:22:30 am »
The short pulse won't kill you, will it? They say that another doesn't get sent until the remote agrees that the prior one was safe, so if they have some way of detecting a problem that should solve that.

But... what, and how, can be detected?

You can rest assured that it can be detected. There are various methods. For example one which is used on AC mains:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earth_leakage_circuit_breaker

p.s. I don't think this is freaking roadways - kind of project. They are addressing right thing. Industry is struggling with PoE power limits. Mobile industry badly needs such kind of power - for small cells. Also this tech allows 30% power supply cost reduction, but for example LED fixture is mainly power supply (besides LEDs obviously) :)
 

Offline sibeen

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #32 on: February 17, 2018, 12:29:40 am »
Just a pedantic point to be made, High Voltage (HV), as defined for regulatory purposes,  is an AC voltage above 1000 V RMS and a DC voltage above 1500 V. Anything at the levels being discussed is still low voltage (LV) for the purposes of electrical safety standards.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2018, 12:30:26 am »
For any device to work it needs to have continuous power. To get continuous power with their stupid pulse system you need big capacitor banks and send a lot of energy in the short bursts for the capacitors to keep enough charge.

First look at the duty cycle of Voltserver, also look at waveforms in available documents:

https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/1d/0b/2c/9409ac5009fa0e/US20130103220A1-20130425-D00008.png

Does voltage drops to zero? Then please tell how 50/60Hz AC mains-powered devices manage to operate. They have voltage dips as well, they have even zero crossing :)

Quote
This is beyond Juicero level stupid, this is electrode-water-heater level stupid! :palm:

You can be horribly wrong this time.

[edit] Corrected attachment.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 01:07:57 am by ogden »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2018, 12:47:24 am »
Quote
Just a pedantic point to be made, High Voltage (HV), as defined for regulatory purposes ...

Accepted. I knew that when using the term but couldn't quickly think of something more succinct to differentiate from, say, trivial 12V supplies. Mea culpa :)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2018, 12:49:09 am »
Quote
I don't think this is freaking roadways - kind of project.

Of course not. Dave hasn't BUSTED it  yet :)
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2018, 12:56:05 am »
Quote
I don't think this is freaking roadways - kind of project.

Of course not. Dave hasn't BUSTED it  yet :)

You most likely are joking, right? ;)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2018, 01:02:03 am »
Quote
I don't think this is freaking roadways - kind of project.

Of course not. Dave hasn't BUSTED it  yet :)

You most likely are joking, right? ;)

Yes.

Well, probably.

More than likely, anyway  8)
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2018, 01:17:16 am »
In certain regions such as AU and NZ for instance I strongly suspect that these higher voltage POE or PET configurations could be in breach of existing cabling regulations and wiring guidelines and the same may apply elsewhere, particularly in regards to mandatory separation between services regardless of their incorporated protection methods.

In a regulatory sense this would be similar to running a mains feed along side or in close proximity to an existing data or communications network which is not just in breach of the current technical standards but also completely illegal. Also when the lights suddenly go on the blink who should the customer call, the sparky, the network dude or both simultaneously ?.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2018, 01:22:43 am »
Quote
In a regulatory sense this would be similar to...

Might it not be like running an extension cable?

 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2018, 01:23:44 am »
GFIs work only to ground. "Safe to Touch" does not specify this, so the average joe might think across the lines would be safe. Dangerous marketing! They are using 300V peak!!! That's mains, so totally not safe! And as meantioned falls under all the same safety standards.

 :palm: AC devices (minus incandescent bulbs and motors), have capacitors, exactly as I said and as shown in your pic. If they're transmitting power in 'packets' as people have been suggesting it would imply that it would be off for long periods. What that waveform would be then is the wave when it's on. So you'd have to have capacitors that store enough power to not only run during the zero crossing, but during the totally off periods! Then you'd have to transmit that power during the on periods! And why are they using a triangle wave?! That's just going to make noise (not nearly as bad as square), and provides less total power (area under the wave) than a sine wave!

EDIT: It doesn't go through 0 in the triangle wave. So there's the extra power. Which makes it just a pointless waveform imposed on DC!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 01:30:08 am by Cyberdragon »
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2018, 01:34:00 am »
Quote
And why are they using a triangle wave?!

Perhaps that's what a 300V square pulse looks like when you take into account rise times over that kind of wire and for that duration.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2018, 01:43:12 am »
GFIs work only to ground. "Safe to Touch" does not specify this, so the average joe might think across the lines would be safe. Dangerous marketing! They are using 300V peak!!! That's mains, so totally not safe! And as meantioned falls under all the same safety standards.

Seems, you did not see video. GFI is not only protection they are providing.

Quote
If they're transmitting power in 'packets' as people have been suggesting it would imply that it would be off for long periods.

You shall catch the train and at least check basic operation parameters of tech we are talking here about. Otherwise you are having strong opinion about stuff you know close to nothing  :-DD

Period is 1.5ms, it's on for 1.1ms and "off" (which is not 0V) for 0.4ms.

Quote
So you'd have to have capacitors that store enough power to not only run during the zero crossing, but during the totally off periods! Then you'd have to transmit that power during the on periods!

 :wtf: you are talking about?

Quote
And why are they using a triangle wave?!

Where do you see triangle wave?
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2018, 01:44:05 am »
Quote
In a regulatory sense this would be similar to...

Might it not be like running an extension cable?
Not if it were their intention to utilise or base a system around existing cabling which already incorporated telecoms and CAT5/6 network wiring, as a registered open cabler I have the technical standards and cabling regulations for AU and NZ here but as mentioned earlier they would probably differ dramatically from those used elsewhere.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2018, 02:00:30 am »
Not if it were their intention to utilise or base a system around existing cabling which already incorporated telecoms and CAT5/6 network wiring, as a registered open cabler I have the technical standards and cabling regulations for AU and NZ here but as mentioned earlier they would probably differ dramatically from those used elsewhere.

Seems like they aim to get approval that their system is as safe as <= 48VDC systems. This is all over patent documents and marketing materials as well. Patent US20130103220A1: "Safe Exposed Conductor Power Distribution System". Thou, in video they show data center installation where power and data wiring is properly separated.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2018, 02:10:17 am »
I'm not watching an hour long marketing vid. It's 300V! What magical safety are they using? I've been hit with 300V across my hand before and it hurts like hell!

Your pic shows a triangle wave (I see now it doesn't cross 0V, meaning only a standard smoothing cap then). I thought this tech used square before that. So why is it a triangle in the pic? You said yourself it wasn't square too!

50/60Hz power cables cause enough problems without converting it to 600Hz 336V square waves.
Could you please tell where you see square waves? Waveforms shown in patent applications are far from square wave. I don't think that they are so stupid to do such an simple mistake - make product with EMI issues.

So, if it's square, you'd have nasty EMI. Otherwise, if it's triangle (or some other shape), how is it "digital" and "packetized" then?

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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2018, 02:14:22 am »
So, if it's square, you'd have nasty EMI. Otherwise, if it's triangle (or some other shape), how is it "digital" and "packetized" then?

Heard of slew rate control? - Those guys are not beginners. They for sure knows what is needed to be within EMI/EMC regulations. So all your "it will make lot of noise" is just... "lot of noise".

[edit] Digital and packetized? - Easy. V.90 modems transmitted 56Kbps of data using audio (!) band. Those Voltserver "packets" are 1kbps average or so. At given duty rate it is max 8Kbps. Not even close to RF interference   :-DD
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 02:26:37 am by ogden »
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2018, 02:19:07 am »
Frauhofer would not put their name in shame, but yet they collaborate with them:

http://www.cse.fraunhofer.org/cleantechnotes_lastupdated052017/digitizing-electricity
 

Offline Muttley Snickers

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2018, 02:22:37 am »
Our cabling and wiring standards down here are pretty much based around separation from other services and the reference points are particular voltage levels or potential differences, mandatory separation distances, protective barriers or insulating conduits are all relative.



 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2018, 02:41:27 am »
What's shown in your pic isn't slew control. Unless it went so far as to unsquare the wave entirely (as far as I know it's never that dramatic). It's also for data, not power, so maybe at these levels it would have to be dramatic. This still doesn't address safety either! And now it's just added even more complicated circuits when it could all be avoided by just using DC in the first place!

1Kbs! :-DD You want to send data at dial-up speeds to what exactly? You know, there's this amazing invention called WI-FI! :palm:
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