Author Topic: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"  (Read 18637 times)

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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2018, 04:16:58 am »
You can get over a megabit  down normal AC power lines with the full power intact as well.
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2018, 05:05:23 am »
You can get over a megabit  down normal AC power lines with the full power intact as well.

Yep, traditional tech is vastly superior to utter bullshit in every way!

Someone photoshop a "BUSTED" stamp onto a screenshot of their website.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2018, 05:20:57 am »
Quote
Someone photoshop a "BUSTED" stamp onto a screenshot of their website.

Can't help thinking you're going to regret making all these unequivocal posts.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2018, 05:56:04 am »
Quote
Someone photoshop a "BUSTED" stamp onto a screenshot of their website.

Can't help thinking you're going to regret making all these unequivocal posts.

So you're saying you actually support this crap?  :-DD Of using super slow, wired, seperate conduit, high voltage connections, when other superior data over power systems exist and we have high speed, cheap, low power wireless connections? No, I shall never regret stomping all over bullshit!

Go ahead...show any advantage that's worth anything of this over all existing systems.


EDIT: In fact, we can bust most of their wank right now!

If what ogden said is true about the 8Kbs limit, then that busts all the stuff they tout about 5G and beating PoE and whatnot.
"Safe to touch", maybe for ground faults. But you'll get your ass bitten if you get across the conductors at 300V
Lighting controllers, for small stuff, use WiFi and standard power. For big PLCs, can they even handle the power requirements?
IoT sensors, traditional PoE or power plus WiFi

Anything else we need to bust?
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 06:12:53 am by Cyberdragon »
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2018, 06:25:53 am »
The idea is a little bit like what I imagined as a compromise of AC and DC. Except my idea is 170V or 340V DC being pulsed at 100Hz or so with a 90% or so duty cycle and a slew rate limited to avoid EMI. The real point is to solve the arcing problem of HVDC yet be cheaper and more efficient to derive from a DC supply than AC.
You can get over a megabit  down normal AC power lines with the full power intact as well.
Just one megabit? 90Mbps or more is easily done as long as there's not too many noisy devices. Telephone lines do even better though - I managed 600Mbps with some hacked Homeplug adapters over a few hundred feet of old telephone line.

Still, pulling a perfect HDTV picture off the mains looks like magic.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2018, 06:26:25 am »
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So you're saying you actually support this crap?

I'm saying I have a serious case of CBA and just going to watch the fun, now.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 06:43:00 am by dunkemhigh »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2018, 06:55:03 am »
Quote
So you're saying you actually support this crap?

No, I am saying I have an open mind about it and looking at what they are actually doing/trying to do rather than make up strawmen to 'bust'.

For instance:

Quote
use WiFi and standard power

They're not trying to shift any old user data down the interwebs. They are wanting one end of the wire to talk to the other end and discuss the wire between them. Using WiFi is just going to make it unreliable and probably unsafe. Using wifi is, frankly, a stupid thing to want to do this with. Indeed, for anyone with a clue, the actual wire connecting the two ends is the logical choice.

It seems to me that you've not grasped what they are trying to do (or, rather, what they are doing according to our mole) and instead just kneekjerking on keywords. "Data = wifi better", for instance. But go ahead. I'm just saying I think you're going to regret jumping in with both feet, the wheels and bucket of a JCB.

I see exactly what they want to do, it's all over their website! Touting 5G interlinks and crap! It's 8Kbs, you can't do much with that other than simple automation! If you want a wired connection, then use traditional PoE, that would be way faster! I don't have to be open minded about a company that also says 300V is safe to touch when I know from experience it bites like a mad dog! Of course WiFi is not secure, but most IoT crap is using it anyway so what does it matter? If your building already has wifi, they'll try to hack it anyway!

Beware of being overly open minded, you'll get sucked into the rabbit hole, just think of:

Juicero
Batteroo
Rayton Solar
Waterseer
Solar Roadways


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Offline BrianHG

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2018, 07:13:12 am »
The idea is a little bit like what I imagined as a compromise of AC and DC. Except my idea is 170V or 340V DC being pulsed at 100Hz or so with a 90% or so duty cycle and a slew rate limited to avoid EMI. The real point is to solve the arcing problem of HVDC yet be cheaper and more efficient to derive from a DC supply than AC.
You can get over a megabit  down normal AC power lines with the full power intact as well.
Just one megabit? 90Mbps or more is easily done as long as there's not too many noisy devices. Telephone lines do even better though - I managed 600Mbps with some hacked Homeplug adapters over a few hundred feet of old telephone line and doesn't supply the MW such large building have already been wired for.


We are talking about superimposing on the existing power wiring in an multi floor office building or stadium or shopping mall, through all the existing infrastructure without re-wiring a thing in an affordable manner to control lighting, AC/Heat, sensors, alarm and intercom, perhaps a few more things.  It is easier to get more bandwidth in a small house, but in such large buildings, you can expect your data will need to go up and down some HV transformers along the way.  Really high bandwidth is claimed on the WiKi link I have placed a few posts back, but, we are only competing with a few joking KBaud.on cat5/6 cable, which still needs to be wired out.
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2018, 07:34:22 am »
I don't see having a single collision domain for a large building as a good idea. The probably of a collision goes way up with a large number of nodes and bandwidth goes way down. The transformers attenuating the signal can be used as a feature to have separate collision domains on each segment.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2018, 09:53:50 am »
What's shown in your pic isn't slew control.

No it's not. - In case you talk about LTspice simulation I made for you to show how stupidly wrong you are about capacitors by saying "To get continuous power with their stupid pulse system you need big capacitor banks and send a lot of energy in the short bursts for the capacitors to keep enough charge." and that's it. Even waveform chosen was worst case 0-300V PWM where just duty cycle matches to Voltserver specs. Though you will understand w/o description, but seems you did not  :palm:

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And now it's just added even more complicated circuits when it could all be avoided by just using DC in the first place!

So you are suggesting just to use plain >= 350VDC. RIGHT.  :palm:

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1Kbs! :-DD You want to send data at dial-up speeds to what exactly?

You don't have to look stupid to prove your arguments, but whatever.. This is communication channel between power source equipment and load - exclusively and only power-related communications. No 3rd party data.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2018, 09:57:24 am »
I see exactly what they want to do, it's all over their website! Touting 5G interlinks and crap! It's 8Kbs,

Geez! It's power delivery in packets, not data.  |O

Before you shout your uneducated arguments all over the forum - please at least know basics about subject of conversation!

p.s. It is average 1Kbps ;) I mentioned worst case, max 8KBps just to say that it does not need much frequency bandwidth to be transmitted - that audio band is enough for it meaning there will be no RF interference because of this service data channel.

I have feeling like it's discussion with flatearthers. Seriously  :-DD
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 10:10:43 am by ogden »
 
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Offline donotdespisethesnake

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2018, 11:27:40 am »
Quote
Just a pedantic point to be made, High Voltage (HV), as defined for regulatory purposes ...

Accepted. I knew that when using the term but couldn't quickly think of something more succinct to differentiate from, say, trivial 12V supplies. Mea culpa :)

There are various flavors of ELV https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extra-low_voltage

I think the "Digital Electricity" method can work, I think the question from the user point of view would be the lifetime of capacitors, typically these might be 5 years. Of course, if VoltServer sell new kit every 5 years that is fine for them :)
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Offline StillTrying

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2018, 11:55:54 am »
"It's power delivery in packets, not data."

How do you send power in packets. It's just a fancy name for a remote on/off switch. ie. cobblers. :-DD
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2018, 12:06:36 pm »
Quote
How do you send power in packets.

M u s t.   R e s i s t.   M  U  S  T      R  E  S  I

Bollocks.

1 0 1 1 PPP 0 1 1 0

1/0 = digital data
P = 300V power

Gosh. Look at that packetized power.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2018, 01:17:23 pm »
but in such large buildings, you can expect your data will need to go up and down some HV transformers along the way.

Well this more efficient than conventional methods system uses 336VDC with small gaps, so good luck with that!

I've looked at the site, watched the video, read all the posts here, thought, and I'm putting it somewhere between snake oil and scam.
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Offline John Heath

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2018, 03:19:03 pm »
I don't see having a single collision domain for a large building as a good idea. The probably of a collision goes way up with a large number of nodes and bandwidth goes way down. The transformers attenuating the signal can be used as a feature to have separate collision domains on each segment.

There are times when it is hard to penetrate a building with 2.4 GHz from the outside. I my case it is to WIFI a LED sign that is outside the building. From what you said there could be a chance to cheat by having the WIFI antenna very close to the sign power lines from inside the sign. Some of the RF should be coupled into the hydro lines? I could mount the other WIFI inside the building in the electrician's room to pick up a tiny bit of 2.4 GHz from the sign. Even with all the inherent hydro shielding the plastic breakers are plastic so some WIFI should leak out. Copper wire has to be better than fresh air. Maybe there would be just enough RF left for a reasonable WIFI connection??
 

Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2018, 04:15:24 pm »
There are times when it is hard to penetrate a building with 2.4 GHz from the outside. I my case it is to WIFI a LED sign that is outside the building. From what you said there could be a chance to cheat by having the WIFI antenna very close to the sign power lines from inside the sign. Some of the RF should be coupled into the hydro lines? I could mount the other WIFI inside the building in the electrician's room to pick up a tiny bit of 2.4 GHz from the sign. Even with all the inherent hydro shielding the plastic breakers are plastic so some WIFI should leak out. Copper wire has to be better than fresh air. Maybe there would be just enough RF left for a reasonable WIFI connection??
I think the dielectric loss is the factor at work. Homeplug auto selects frequencies between 2MHz and 100MHz or so, using whatever gives an acceptable SNR.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #67 on: February 17, 2018, 06:16:18 pm »
"It's power delivery in packets, not data."

How do you send power in packets. It's just a fancy name for a remote on/off switch. ie. cobblers. :-DD

You are mistaken indeed. Please confirm that earth is flat so I can skip explanation why it is not just remote on/off switch.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #68 on: February 17, 2018, 07:42:08 pm »
"It's power delivery in packets, not data."

How do you send power in packets. It's just a fancy name for a remote on/off switch. ie. cobblers. :-DD

You are mistaken indeed. Please confirm that earth is flat so I can skip explanation why it is not just remote on/off switch.

We know exactly what you are saying. The question is do you?

Lets review the definition of the word "PACKET"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_packet

If you are "packetizing the power" itself, you are BY DEFINITION sending it in PULSES. Which brings us back to my original point that you will need CAPACITORS to convert this into clean DC power for a device to operate. Let alone the physics of why this is more complicated than normal rectifier ripple filtering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_capacitor

Why would you pulse the power? This is totally pointless! :palm: What purpose would anyone have to overcomplicate things?

If it's also modulating the pulses to communicate, then WHY? What possible data would a device need to communicate to it's power source? Control data? That's what POE is for! You can also impose the data OVER the power without ever pulsing the power itself!

You've yet to give us any specific examples of any specific uses, let alone advanges, of this! Sure you can regurgitate their marketing wank, but again, prove why this is not inferior to existing tech! You've beaten around the bush so much you've killed it!

Untill you do (give us examples and advantages), this crap is going under STUPID, and SNAKE OIL!
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 07:48:40 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline NiHaoMike

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #69 on: February 17, 2018, 08:22:59 pm »
Why would you pulse the power? This is totally pointless! :palm: What purpose would anyone have to overcomplicate things?
It does solve the main problem of HVDC - the tendency of it to arc. Sending data in only the gaps isn't a particularly good use of bandwidth, however. Maybe I need to do a remake of that HVP70 test setup to show that Homeplug also works over HVDC...
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #70 on: February 17, 2018, 08:23:53 pm »
If you are "packetizing the power" itself, you are BY DEFINITION sending it in PULSES. Which brings us back to my original point that you will need CAPACITORS to convert this into clean DC power for a device to operate. Let alone the physics of why this is more complicated than normal rectifier ripple filtering.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Filter_capacitor

Right. This is why I did LTspice simulation to show you that offered tech needs smaller capacitors than existing 50/60Hz systems:



Seems, you are not able to comprehend information provided. [edit] Which leads to obvious question: what the heck you are doing in this discussion?

Quote
Why would you pulse the power? This is totally pointless! :palm: What purpose would anyone have to overcomplicate things?

Power pulsing is needed for power AND fault detection. While you provide power - it is hard to detect someone touching wires. Indeed you need "fault detection" phase. During 1.1ms they provide power, next 0.4ms they communicate to load and at the same time they check for faults like human connected somewhere.

Quote
If it's also modulating the pulses to communicate, then WHY?

Fault detection, on/off state communication, dimmer settings and so on.

Quote
What possible data would a device need to communicate to it's power source? Control data? That's what POE is for!

PoE is for 1) data that is not related to power, transmission 2) power provision. PoE does not transmit for example dimmer settings.

Quote
You can also impose the data OVER the power without ever pulsing the power itself!

They are not pulsing power to modulate data. On/Off keying of power for data transmission is just your uneducated assumption.

Quote
You've yet to give us any specific examples of any specific uses, let alone advanges, of this!
Untill you do (give us examples and advantages), this crap is going under STUPID, and SNAKE OIL!

More than 100W power over twisted-pair cables like Cat6. Cellular network providers are hungry for such. They state that big displays (TVs) are / can be powered as well. There are loads of applications that can benefit from cabling that is not regulated in same safety category as AC mains.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 09:08:04 pm by ogden »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #71 on: February 17, 2018, 10:19:08 pm »
So it's pulsing at about 900 something hertz (or whatever they actually use) and transmitting between them. You're still using capacitors (where DC wouldn't, or would be even smaller just for voltage drop suppression), and as you even said you'd need slew control and other complex EMI solutions over normal power (especially at high power). It doesn't have to do with the frequency of the power either, it's the sharp edges that have to be suppressed (hence the above). Normal DC also does not experience inductive losses, which pulsed DC will (and greater than normal AC at lower frequency). Also look up the "skin effect" (related to inductive losses). Plus that's not including power factor, which may cause weird effects with your slew control!

http://suddendocs.samtec.com/notesandwhitepapers/simplified-pulse-current.pdf

As NiHaoMike said about transmitting between packets, this isn't very efficient for bandwidth. There are normal systems that use data over top of power, which have much higher bandwidth and can do all you described while using normal DC or AC power. Like I said, you'd never have to pulse the power (even to send data in between)!

So the only thing this has going for it is this so called "Safe Touch" fault detection. You can do short circuit and arc suppression on normal systems, it's not new. Explain exactly how it's supposed to detect a person across the lines in these off periods and turn off the power faster than you can feel it (at whatever Hz too)? Remember, a person is just a resistance, so across the lines it just looks like a load. Are they using impedance testing? And I won't be satisfied until SOMEONE puts their hands across it and PROVES it's safe. (at least with that saw thing they used a sausage, although for this a person is required because a sausage can't feel a shock)

Quote
More than 100W power over twisted-pair cables like Cat6. Cellular network providers are hungry for such. They state that big displays (TVs) are / can be powered as well. There are loads of applications that can benefit from cabling that is not regulated in same safety category as AC mains.

"They state that" I don't care what the marketing dept says, I care about science! Over 100W over CAT6?! First of all, is CAT6 even rated for 300V? I don't think codes would allow that, so you'd have to use mains cable anyway just due to the voltage involved! At 300V 100W the current is 1/3 Amp. CAT6 is (generously) 24AWG, which means a max rating about 0.6 Amp. However, it's pulsed, so due to having a duty cycle the instantaneous current is actually greater than 1/3 Amp! The cooling effects won't be much either at that frequency! It may not burn up, but it'll still get warm and the temp will have to be considered.

You can experiment with this at home too, just use a 100W audio amp and a slew controlled square wave at whatever their frequency is and feed it flat out into a speaker through a long piece of CAT6 for a long time. Now tell me the results. Did it get warm? What was the distortion?
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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #72 on: February 17, 2018, 11:07:11 pm »
Quote
and turn off the power faster than you can feel it

Wrong end of stick. The power is turned ON unless the previous pulse was determined to be 'safe'. That's the point of the pulses - individually they are safe and it only takes one bad one to bring the system to a complete halt.

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which means a max rating about 0.6 Amp

At 300V is 180W

Quote
use a 100W audio amp

I suspect your average audio amp isn't going to put out 300V, so the current will be enough to damage the wire. Testing with the wrong tool gives misleading results.

 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #73 on: February 17, 2018, 11:29:22 pm »
Quote
and turn off the power faster than you can feel it

Wrong end of stick. The power is turned ON unless the previous pulse was determined to be 'safe'. That's the point of the pulses - individually they are safe and it only takes one bad one to bring the system to a complete halt.

But HOW are you determining if it's safe? Also, again, it would still have to react within a millisecond!

100W over 180W absulute max rated wire (IE it burns out past this), is going to get hot and is quite a dodgy thing to do.
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #74 on: February 17, 2018, 11:34:23 pm »
So it's pulsing at about 900 something hertz (or whatever they actually use)

You can't even do elementary math for 1.5ms period  :palm:

Quote
You're still using capacitors (where DC wouldn't, or would be even smaller just for voltage drop suppression), and as you even said you'd need slew control and other complex EMI solutions over normal power (especially at high power). It doesn't have to do with the frequency of the power either, it's the sharp edges that have to be suppressed (hence the above). Normal DC also does not experience inductive losses, which pulsed DC will

 :blah:  Your offer to use unprotected >= 350V DC is uneducated to say it politely.

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As NiHaoMike said about transmitting between packets, this isn't very efficient for bandwidth. There are normal systems that use data over top of power, which have much higher bandwidth and can do all you described while using normal DC or AC power. Like I said, you'd never have to pulse the power (even to send data in between)!

Oh, geez :palm:   Efficient for bandwidth?

How much bandwidth is needed to tell LED it's dimmer setting?

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And I won't be satisfied until SOMEONE puts their hands across it and PROVES it's safe.

It's shown in the video which you refused to watch  :-DD

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"They state that" I don't care what the marketing dept says, I care about science!

Science? How about pilot installations which are working well?

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Over 100W over CAT6?! First of all, is CAT6 even rated for 300V?

Yes, it is. Geez, how many times I have to counter your ignorance/stupidity/whatever?
 


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