Author Topic: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"  (Read 18630 times)

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Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #75 on: February 17, 2018, 11:47:48 pm »
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But HOW are you determining if it's safe?

Don't know. But, as I suggested previously, the sender could tell the receiver how much power to expect in the pulse and if it's not all there then there is a problem. Surely that's just the same as many mains fault detection works.

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Also, again, it would still have to react within a millisecond!

For crying out loud - there is NO REACTION TIME involved. The next pulse is ONLY sent if the previous one was safe. Thus any reaction time is in getting another one to be delivered. How many more times do this have to be said before you read and understand it? The next pulse won't be delivered until the receiver says it is OK to send it. That's what the data comms part of this setup does. It's not for bloody cat videos on youtube but an integral part of the safety. And fail safe at that - no comms, no power.


« Last Edit: February 17, 2018, 11:53:09 pm by dunkemhigh »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #76 on: February 18, 2018, 12:11:28 am »
I didn't remember which one was the period in PSPICE! (the 1.1ms or the 1.5ms)

I also, NEVER SAID HV! I meant for something like 48V! As I'll state below, just because they're using HV to try and avoid getting to close to max current ratings, doesn't mean shit if they're doing it wrong!

Also, again, videos mean nothing (batteroo has them too! they can be faked you know.). Plus, like I said, i'm never going to believe it's safe until you say HOW it's detecting if there is someone across the lines during the off periods!

If you've watched the video, then give me their advantages in terms of numbers.

Also, functional != good idea or improvement. An IOT spoon can function, but does that make it a good idea?

The ABSOLUTE MAX for CAT6 is 300V. http://www.pacificcable.com/Cat_6_Tutorial.htm For proper engineering (if you know it!) you'd never run a cable at it's max rating!

https://www.wireandcabletips.com/cable-insulated-wire-safety-requirements-part-4-voltage-current-capacities/

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In direct current (DC) system, the rated voltage of the system should be no higher than 1.5 times that of the nominal voltage of the cable.

So again, there's some miss information going on that video, as they are definitely either not running it through data cable, or they're violating codes. I don't know how they're running the pilot installs, but they are certainly not using CAT6 (or at least not using it properly)!   

P.S. To address the new post, mains fault detection only works to ground, not across the lines!

Of course there's reaction time! It has to determine whether it's safe or not within a millisecond in order to send the next pulse within that time frame. So it means it has to run that routine in a millisecond! If they're using reflected impedance testing it would have to measure and make a determination that fast, regardless of the length of cable!
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #77 on: February 18, 2018, 12:34:49 am »
I didn't remember which one was the period in PSPICE! (the 1.1ms or the 1.5ms)

Memory span of goldfish?  :-DD

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If you've watched the video, then give me their advantages in terms of numbers.

30% less cost of power supply BOM compared to AC mains supplies. Does it count?

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Also, functional != good idea or improvement. An IOT spoon can function, but does that make it a good idea?

What?!

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mains fault detection only works to ground, not across the lines!

What? Please elaborate

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The ABSOLUTE MAX for CAT6 is 300V.

Yes. It means that it's rated for 300V :) You can try to twist it as you want but truth is as it is.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 12:47:44 am by ogden »
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #78 on: February 18, 2018, 12:43:59 am »
I don't use PSPICE, hence I don't remember (yes, I know I should start using it).

30% less huh? Is this plus the HVDC trasmission stuff, the slew rate control, the "Touch Safe" system, exc? (which you refused to address the operation of)

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Yes. It means that it's rated for 300V :) You can try to twist it as you want but truth is at it is.

No, you are the one that doesn't understand proper engineering, and blatently ignored the rest of the post. I just said and sourced that you NEVER RUN A CABLE AT IT'S ABSOLUTE MAX VOLTAGE!!! (unless for testing it of course, but not in normal use!)

EDIT: I don't know why i thought of an IOT spoon as an example, but there is an IOT fork.
https://www.hapi.com/product/hapifork
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 12:47:03 am by Cyberdragon »
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Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #79 on: February 18, 2018, 12:58:10 am »
I don't use PSPICE, hence I don't remember (yes, I know I should start using it).

To understand circuit and waveforms provided, spice knowledge is not required.

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30% less huh? Is this plus the HVDC trasmission stuff, the slew rate control, the "Touch Safe" system, exc? (which you refused to address the operation of)

It's hard to follow you here. Please be specific.

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Quote
Yes. It means that it's rated for 300V :) You can try to twist it as you want but truth is at it is.

No, you are the one that doesn't understand proper engineering, and blatently ignored the rest of the post. I just said and sourced that you NEVER RUN A CABLE AT IT'S ABSOLUTE MAX VOLTAGE!!! (unless for testing it of course, but not in normal use!)

LOL. 300V rating is 300V rating. No matter how you are trying to twist it around proper engineering excuses :) Don't you think that your arguments are stupid? - I do.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #80 on: February 18, 2018, 01:32:07 am »
I mean that do you still save 30% on costs over traditional systems, even though this requires the extra components stated?

No, you CLEARLY do not understand wire ratings at all! Please do some research on wire insulation ratings. The reason you don't constantly run wire at it's max voltage is because it can stress the insulation and may cause it to fail after awhile! :palm: Plus, no electrical codes (at least in the US) will allow you to do this anyway, even if you wanted to tempt fate! Note: the EMI crosstalk should not apply (as I assume the HV is the only thing on the cable in this system).

https://community.spiceworks.com/topic/395007-ethernet-cat-6-cable-and-electrical-power-cable

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The building code issue is likely due to the fact that CAT6 is not made for high voltage transmission
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Offline m98

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #81 on: February 18, 2018, 12:02:22 pm »
How about them not using some standard cat6 ethernet cable off Aliexpress, but actually something tailored to the specs they need? Or maybe there is some manufacturer who already offers something suitable off the shelf.

How's touch protection gonna work? Probably something like this:
Server: I just sent 1 J of Energy.
Client 1: received 0.3 J.
Client 2: received 0.3 J.
Client 3: received 0.1 J.
Server: Stops transmitting, indicates fault condition.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #82 on: February 18, 2018, 12:36:17 pm »
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But HOW are you determining if it's safe?

Don't know. But, as I suggested previously, the sender could tell the receiver how much power to expect in the pulse and if it's not all there then there is a problem.

All the sender can do is switch back on (or not) the unregulated 336VDC, which is connected to all devices, the 336VDC is not addressable packets of power as described in some of the texts.

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Surely that's just the same as many mains fault detection works.

You must be kidding!
http://electrical-engineering-portal.com/how-residual-current-device-rcd-works

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For crying out loud - there is NO REACTION TIME involved. The next pulse is ONLY sent if the previous one was safe.

They say they 'test' the cable during the data period when the 336VDC is switched off to determine if it's safe or not. Some of us might not completely believe them, with a lot of devices connected to the cable it would be near impossible to detect the small extra load caused by a finger.
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #83 on: February 18, 2018, 12:55:50 pm »
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How about them not using some standard cat6 ethernet cable off Aliexpress, but actually something tailored to the specs they need?

Are you crazy?  :wtf: That would kill off at least one straw man.  :scared:
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #84 on: February 18, 2018, 01:07:13 pm »
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All the sender can do is switch back on (or not) the unregulated 336VDC,

Yes, indeed. Someone appears to be awake :)

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which is connected to all devices

Yeah? Sure? I assumed it was point-to-point. Many devices, but each on its own wire (aka link).

At the risk of confusing the issue, you might have a remote unit that is in fact a multiway socket, like a normal extension lead has. But that would be the remote device, not each thing that's plugged in. Still a single wire/link.

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the 336VDC is not addressable packets of power as described in some of the texts

Can you quote some of that text, please? I'd like to know exactly what we're talking about, here.

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You must be kidding!

Essentially, they determine the difference between what went out on the live leg and what's coming back on the neutral leg. About 30mA difference and it trips. Same king of thing here but obviously measured differently - the sender knows what went out, the remote tells it what was used, any difference and there's a problem. Same kind of principle, is it not?

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They say they 'test' the cable during the data period when the 336VDC is switched off to determine if it's safe or not.

Fine. I offered an opinion and acknowledged from the off that I didn't know. But now you have it from the horses mouth.

[Thinks...] Hey, why don't you ask them? I guess that might spoil the scope for argument on here, but if you actually want to know it's a simple and hard to beat thing to do.

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the small extra load caused by a finger

Wouldn't that depend on what the finger is attached to, electrically?
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #85 on: February 18, 2018, 03:02:06 pm »
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How about them not using some standard cat6 ethernet cable off Aliexpress, but actually something tailored to the specs they need?

Are you crazy?  :wtf: That would kill off at least one straw man.  :scared:

Yep, means you'll have to use THEIR cable ;) . So they probably won't let you use your existing wiring if it doesn't meet THEIR specs. So they will offer to rewire for you. ;) $$$

And yes, I think their "super hv safety" is total BS. Which is plenty terrible enough to throw this whole thing in the "dangerous snake oil" bin!

EDIT: I bet if you ask them they won't tell you. Even if they do, it would probably be some BS.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 03:12:30 pm by Cyberdragon »
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Offline frozenfrogz

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #86 on: February 18, 2018, 03:50:46 pm »
Yep, means you'll have to use THEIR cable ;)

Actually in the presentation video I posted they mention that it was designed with typical cables for CCTV applications in mind since these are widely available at low prices. They talk about 18 gauge for maximum power throughput. I guess that means 18-2, RG-59 and likely CAT5 / 6 or whatever is common for CCTV / IP camera installation.
He’s like a trained ape. Without the training.
 

Offline StillTrying

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #87 on: February 18, 2018, 04:42:17 pm »
Actually in the presentation video I posted they mention that it was designed with typical cables for CCTV applications in mind since these are widely available at low prices. They talk about 18 gauge for maximum power throughput. I guess that means 18-2, RG-59 and likely CAT5 / 6 or whatever is common for CCTV / IP camera installation.

Or you could save the massive expense, power inefficiencies, and 650Hz interference all over your picture by just using a normal cheap power cable. :)

They've been going since about 2012, how many multi-camera CCTV systems are using this new 'Digital Electricity', I'd have a wild guess at zero.

Steve Eaves of Voltserver at the July 2014 Providence Geeks


https://www.digitizelectric.com/how-it-works
« Last Edit: February 18, 2018, 11:35:03 pm by StillTrying »
.  That took much longer than I thought it would.
 

Offline John Heath

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #88 on: February 18, 2018, 06:47:09 pm »
There are times when it is hard to penetrate a building with 2.4 GHz from the outside. I my case it is to WIFI a LED sign that is outside the building. From what you said there could be a chance to cheat by having the WIFI antenna very close to the sign power lines from inside the sign. Some of the RF should be coupled into the hydro lines? I could mount the other WIFI inside the building in the electrician's room to pick up a tiny bit of 2.4 GHz from the sign. Even with all the inherent hydro shielding the plastic breakers are plastic so some WIFI should leak out. Copper wire has to be better than fresh air. Maybe there would be just enough RF left for a reasonable WIFI connection??
I think the dielectric loss is the factor at work. Homeplug auto selects frequencies between 2MHz and 100MHz or so, using whatever gives an acceptable SNR.

Good tip. I googled and they sell them at Canada computer stores for 60 bucks. They call it a power line adapter , same deal as homeplug . I will try and see if it works for a outside to inside building WIFI connection.
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #89 on: February 19, 2018, 01:35:19 am »
Or you could save the massive expense, power inefficiencies, and 650Hz interference all over your picture by just using a normal cheap power cable. :)

Expense of course is main argument here. This tech definitely shall not be seen as low cost power delivery in your house or flat :D

Power inefficiencies? - Please explain what you mean.

What's difference between 50/60 Hz interference compared to 650Hz? - None. Both are audible and both are not RF frequencies. It yet to be seen how much interference it creates. I bet it is much less than AC dimmers. What most of opponents do here are just uneducated speculations, some even did not read patent applications not to mention watching video ;)

It's applicable to normal cheap power cable indeed. This is obvious. To power individually addressable LED panels in huge open office or airport you don't need to run Cat6 cable - use same cable you do for AC mains. Advantage is - you can run just single cable for whole ceiling, yet can on/off/dim each panel individually. DALI needs control cable which is extra installation costs. Voltserver allows conversion/retrofitting to smart lighting over existing cabling - this shall be considered as huge benefit.

Will they succeed - this is good question. I hope they do because DC power delivery to modern loads is obvious path, more effective than AC. Just arcing and other safety issues shall be solved and this is what their tech is supposedly doing. Personally I wish them to succeed, I really hope they are not investor scammers :)
« Last Edit: February 19, 2018, 01:38:55 am by ogden »
 
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Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #90 on: February 19, 2018, 03:24:08 am »
Something about their website also makes it look like they made it on Wix in about five minutes... :P
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Offline rrinkerTopic starter

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #91 on: February 19, 2018, 04:20:25 pm »
 Lots of discussion, this is great. I don't think it can be debunked, per se. Unlike Solar Freakin' Roadways, these guys DO have something that works, not merely a disco floor that draws more power than it will ever generate from sunlight. How WELL it works - unknown as of yet. It's not a client I get to much, if at all, so I still haven't seen the installation in person. It's only been a few weeks, but they aren't rushing to replace it yet, so it must be doing the business. Is it cost effective? The client was convinced - I will also add, we did not sell this to them, our part comes in getting the data to the downstream devices and configuring them. If it's used at the customer site I think it is, running additional wiring is a very labor intensive task - the building is poured concrete and cement block.

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #92 on: January 03, 2022, 01:48:25 am »
Revising old thread because someone just pointed out this on Twitter and I was looking at doing a debunking video.
Seems like:
a) They have real professional level stuff that's been installed in large commercial installations
b) They are leveraging the fact that in certain places you can't install the usual power wiring, or power and data together due to regulations, and they have a niche solution to put usable power over what's legally classed as "data" cabling.

Where the bullshit comes in is comparing it to PoE and how it's going to revolutionise everything. Clearly it's not. They use 18AWG cable to transport the power they are claiming, they can't use existing CAT5/6 cable.
So I guess nothing to bust here really?
Obviously if you could install normal mains cabling you'd just do that, no need for any of this pantented niche wankery.
 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #93 on: January 03, 2022, 02:14:20 am »
The whole pulsing thing sounds stupid ... but the idea of a powerbus which determines mA range shorts by communicating the received power and comparing it with the send power (or lack of ACKs from the receiver) is interesting. Finally a system which can protect you from a two handed blunder.

It might allow you to declare a 330V DC wire voltage band 1.
« Last Edit: January 03, 2022, 02:18:19 am by Marco »
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #94 on: January 03, 2022, 02:30:51 am »
The whole pulsing thing sounds stupid ...

Yeah but you can't get millions in venute funding without some patented techno-babble solution.
 

Offline AlbertL

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #95 on: January 03, 2022, 01:47:23 pm »
This would be a great way to power and network your Theranos "Edison" machine!
 

Offline ogden

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Re: Has anyone seen this - Voltserver: "Digital Electricity"
« Reply #96 on: January 03, 2022, 09:11:33 pm »
They use 18AWG cable to transport the power they are claiming, they can't use existing CAT5/6 cable.
So I guess nothing to bust here really?
Obviously if you could install normal mains cabling you'd just do that, no need for any of this pantented niche wankery.

With same success one can label other building automation tech like Dali, KNX as niche wankery. Seeing slow adoption rate and way too high pricing, I do not expect this product to steal huge market share, if any. Do not look like investment scam, nothing to debunk. Well... other than blahblah about price comparison to existing (AC+signalling_wires) products.
 


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