Author Topic: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?  (Read 15671 times)

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Offline 0xdeadbeef

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #25 on: October 10, 2011, 12:03:27 am »
Well, most of the Fluke DMMs in our department are from the early eighties and they are all still completely functional after nearly 30years. How much they might have cost at this time (at it sure was a lot), was worth it a dozen times. Hell, taking into account what an engineer costs a day, spending 400-500€ for a 87V which lasts more than 20 years is just not worth discussing.

Besides, there really aren't too many DMMs in the <500€ range that can measure accurately down to the µA and µV range and still can take 10A for a longer time. Not to speak of the true RMS capabilities up to 20kHz, the great Hold function and the latched continuity tester.

So really, it's really not like there are dozens of other DMMs with comparable capabilities for much less money. E.g. there are some great DMMs from Gossen-Metrawatt, but they are even more expensive. There are some China DMMs with great TrueRMS capabilties, but they can take 5-10A only for a few seconds and have an extremely slow continuity tester.

So honestly, when ordering new DMMs for the department, I will always vote for Flukes (87V or 18-II). I just to see any sense in saving 100 or 200€ and trading them in for annoyances or lacking capabilities.
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alm

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #26 on: October 10, 2011, 12:23:49 am »
I know an HVAC tech who uses a Fluke 289, which is such a waste.
I don't see the problem. Sure, it's overkill and he spent much more than necessary (although a $50 one wouldn't do for CAT IV circuits either). But as long as it gets the job done, where's the harm? Apart from envy from colleagues?

People buy Fluke's like people buy nike running shoes. To show off the brand.
Or because it's the safe choice, nobody has ever been fired for buying Fluke. Explaining that you can't troubleshoot the stalled production line because your meter died is much easier if you bought the industry standard meter. Explaining that you saved $200 by buying an unproven meter may not be met with much sympathy under these circumstances. Of course you should have backup equipment regardless of brand.

To me, Fluke is poor value for money too. They're good, but the increase in quality is nowhere near the increase in prince.
True, but that's always the case. It's the same with the competition, like Gossen and Agilent, and even the cheaper brands. A $50 multimeter isn't 10x better than a $5 one. A $100 one isn't twice as good as a $50 one. It's the law of diminishing returns.

Money isn't that critical in every application, like 0xdeadbeef states, DMM costs are fairly low compared to wages. If a bad measurement costs thousands of dollars in rework, like the story Dave told in an early blog, spending a few hundred dollars for peace of mind is a no-brainer. The track record of Fluke meters is hard to match by competitors, at least for now.
 

Offline elliott

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #27 on: October 10, 2011, 01:15:33 am »
I know an HVAC tech who uses a Fluke 289, which is such a waste.
I don't see the problem. Sure, it's overkill and he spent much more than necessary (although a $50 one wouldn't do for CAT IV circuits either). But as long as it gets the job done, where's the harm? Apart from envy from colleagues?
It was just annoying that he was talking down about my meter when he can't even begin to comprehend a fraction of the functions of his meter. He spends more time talking about his tools than using them.

I don't think the Fluke 289 is even a good meter for an HVAC tech, it is big, bulky and needs an additional clamp ammeter to be useful. It has to eat through batteries too. Most of the other HVAC guys I know use a much more sensible Fluke 373, one recently picked up one of those slick 381s with the remote display. Now the 381 costs quite a bit, nearly as much as a 289, but it is far more useful in the HVAC field.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #28 on: October 10, 2011, 03:02:21 am »
[quote author=RJSC
People buy Fluke's like people buy nike running shoes. To show off the brand.
To me, Fluke is poor value for money too. They're good, but the increase in quality is nowhere near the increase in prince.
[/quote]

I am no fluke fan boy but I did some serious checking of specs on 6.5 digit bench meters before I bought one. That included reading the complete manuals of all that I considered (Fluke, Agilent, Keithly). I also compared accuracy specs of every function on every range.  What meter is best is subjective, it depends on what functions you need and what is important to you. Each of these meters had a feature that only they provided and a spec that they excelled at. For my purposes the Fluke 8846A was the winner.  At US$1282.50 I consider it a bargain and is more than competitive with the others. Fluke also had a promotion where I got a free fluke 2AC voltage detector, a Fluke 62 infrared thermometer, and a Fluke C550 tote bag (over $200 dollars worth of product). 
One of the things that Fluke tells you is what their specs actually mean. The Fluke application note: "Understanding and comparing instrument specifications" shows how conservative specs end up being because of all the variables involved. After receiving my freshly built 8846A and comparing the actual calibration values to what is guaranteed for 24 hr specs it is orders of magnitude more accurate than what is guaranteed for 24 hr specs. So overall I think over priced is not a fair statement.  Someone else with other needs may have picked one of the other meters as best for them and they would be correct.

But for the original point of this thread: I think as  long as the meter used has the specs and calibration required for the job at hand telling you to use a Fluke is just brand snobbery.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 12:58:41 pm by robrenz »
 

alm

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #29 on: October 10, 2011, 03:09:49 am »
elliot:
Yes, talking down is annoying, although a CAT II-rated Radio Shack meter wouldn't be the correct tool for his job either. I wouldn't pick a Fluke 289 for HVAC, I agree with all the downsides you list, but if it allows him to do his job, why not? It's not like there's a finite supply of them which has to be carefully allocated to the people that need it the most.

But for the original point of this thread: I think as  long as the meter used has the specs and calibration required for the job at hand telling you to use a Fluke is just brand snobbery.
Assuming it actually meets those specs. Some of the cheap brands have very optimistic specs. Some parameters, like reliability, are rarely mentioned in specs. This is were reputable brands come in.
 

Offline elliott

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #30 on: October 10, 2011, 03:41:07 am »
elliot:
Yes, talking down is annoying, although a CAT II-rated Radio Shack meter wouldn't be the correct tool for his job either. I wouldn't pick a Fluke 289 for HVAC, I agree with all the downsides you list, but if it allows him to do his job, why not? It's not like there's a finite supply of them which has to be carefully allocated to the people that need it the most.
Of course I know the Radio Shack meter would not be good for HVAC work and I've never used it for that, the last time I had to diagnose a problem with my home system I borrowed a Fluke 373 from my neighbor.

At the time I was sorting out some underhood wiring on a 1955 Cadillac, making a later model engine and charging system work with it. A $2.99 Harbor Freight special would have been good enough, I just needed to be able to tell the difference between 9v, 12v and 14v. He was still convinced that his Fluke was somehow better than my Radio Shack for what I was doing at that very moment.

I told him to let me know when he breaks this 289, he trashed 2 others when he broke the screens, I'll take it and fix it for myself.
 

Offline FenderBender

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2011, 03:57:37 am »
So we think Fluke fanboys are pricks...okay

Thing is, when you see that yellow holster, you know the guys got good enough tools. I guess not everyone wants to go over and ask the tech if you can see his meter for a second, disassemble it and run tests on it before he does the job. It's a sense of security I guess.  In critical environments, I think the last thing you want to worry about is whether your meter is bugging out on you.

However, that doesn't justify idiots saying that other meters are inferior. I just recently spent about $100 on an Amprobe DMM and there's not a chance I could get anything close to it if I had bought a $100 Fluke (if there was one). And to be honest, I think my Amprobe will still be fine in 20 years.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2011, 12:17:47 pm »
So we think Fluke fanboys are pricks...okay

 ;D ;D ;D

I am master prick , but I do not care ..  ;) (By owning so many Fluke and other nice tools)

What the technicians needs, are more awareness about those subjects.
Thanks God, our Dave and others major contributors, helps so this negative status to change.
Every new generation of technicians should have a wider view about this subject,
and it looks that it starts to happen.

Dave is the most favorite foreign Video bloger, in the Greek forums about electronics.    :)
But only the educated foreigners can follow him.  ;)  (language barrier)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2011, 12:21:47 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2011, 09:17:01 pm »
At the time I was sorting out some underhood wiring on a 1955 Cadillac, making a later model engine and charging system work with it. A $2.99 Harbor Freight special would have been good enough, I just needed to be able to tell the difference between 9v, 12v and 14v. He was still convinced that his Fluke was somehow better than my Radio Shack for what I was doing at that very moment.
The Fluke is safer. It has a proper fuse which will blow if you accidentally connect it to the battery terminals when it's set to measure current. Cheap meters often don't have a fuse or one with a poor breaking capacity so may smoke and catch fire if connected accross a car battery.
 

Offline elliott

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2011, 10:05:18 pm »
The Fluke is safer. It has a proper fuse which will blow if you accidentally connect it to the battery terminals when it's set to measure current. Cheap meters often don't have a fuse or one with a poor breaking capacity so may smoke and catch fire if connected accross a car battery.
The Radio Shack 22-812 is properly fused with fast blow ceramics, I've blown quite a few and haven't seen a puff of smoke. I am quite confident that it would protect me in the case of shorting battery terminals on the amp setting. I've had it for 11 years, I trust it as much as I trust my brand new Extech, short of anything requiring beyond a CAT II rating.

I know those Harbor Freight ones aren't too safe, but I'm careful with them and haven't blown one up yet. The $2.99 Harbor Freight ones have a small glass fuse on the main positive terminal, but none on the 10 amp terminal. I've never used one of those for measuring amperage before.
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2011, 10:35:47 pm »
The Fluke is safer. It has a proper fuse which will blow if you accidentally connect it to the battery terminals when it's set to measure current. Cheap meters often don't have a fuse or one with a poor breaking capacity so may smoke and catch fire if connected accross a car battery.
Your statements do bring up a good point in favour of better made instruments. Reliability, robust construction and the ability to withstand accidental overload are the major differences between a worthwhile instrument and a $50 cheapie. Substitute resistance for amps in a repeat of your previous scenario and it's often a difference between a flashing error display and a now dead instrument.

It's stupid to have a $1000 instrument banging about in an automotive tool box when all that is required are simple measurements. A high impedance instrument can also lead the inexperienced to erroneous conclusion in that environment. It is certainly sacrilege to have a highly desirable instrument bashed about in the back of a van,  Even so, these are not environments for dubious cheapies. Rubbish meters are false economy, and after replacing your second or third in short succession a basic Fluke or similar has become a much better proposition, especially when wasted time is factored in.

For routine electrical or auto electrical work a basic Fluke or similar would be the wise choice, with the range of available brands and instruments much wider than at the top end. There are many better priced models tailored specifically for these applications.

Rubbish meters belong in landfill, a good instrument isn't that expensive, basic name brand are instruments certainly there for under $200, with well made offerings to be had from lesser brands albeit without the instant recognition. 

To suggest Fluke is the only quality manufacturer is ignorant, to question unknown instruments is prudent. A Fluke has been and still is synonymous with all the attributes of safety, durability, accuracy and repeatability. How far that reputation carries into the future will depend on the success of the current and future model range. Given the prevalence of grey market importation of lesser specified Chinese market Flukes, it is likely the Fluke reputation will diminish to some degree.
 

Online Zero999

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2011, 10:37:55 pm »
I know those Harbor Freight ones aren't too safe, but I'm careful with them and haven't blown one up yet. The $2.99 Harbor Freight ones have a small glass fuse on the main positive terminal, but none on the 10 amp terminal. I've never used one of those for measuring amperage before.
That's the sort of meter I'm talking about. Small glass fuses typically have a breaking capacity of only 35A and there's no excuse for no fuse.

It's much lower risk but it's possible a the + and - terminals could be come closed circuit and cause a short if it's hit by a voltage spike such as a load dump in an audomotive situation.
 

Offline Joy at MCS

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #37 on: October 24, 2011, 10:47:58 pm »
Fluke have brainwashed people to believe if it isn't a Fluke then you can't do a proper job.

I've seen a lot of engineers feel like they had to have a Fluke to do a job  when infact there are other manufacturers who make a better product then Fluke for the job.  I think a good example of this is the Fluke DTX 1800 for cat 5,6 etc testing.  The newer models now available from some other manufacturers are quicker  and better at half the cost.

How is that some companies are able to make people believe there isn't anything else out there that will do the job?

Joy

 

Offline PetrosA

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 02:51:32 am »
Fluke have brainwashed people to believe if it isn't a Fluke then you can't do a proper job.

I've seen a lot of engineers feel like they had to have a Fluke to do a job  when infact there are other manufacturers who make a better product then Fluke for the job.  I think a good example of this is the Fluke DTX 1800 for cat 5,6 etc testing.  The newer models now available from some other manufacturers are quicker  and better at half the cost.

How is that some companies are able to make people believe there isn't anything else out there that will do the job?

Joy

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Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2011, 11:48:29 am »
Fluke is unable to brainwash any one.

They have use first, the power of the media and this is all about it.
And they have spent lots of cash to do it.
I do not blame them ...

I blame all others who does not use the social media and press , so to inform people about their products.
 
 

Offline Excavatoree

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Re: Have you been a victim of "Fluke Discrimination" on the job?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 12:34:20 pm »
I've been doing basic troubleshooting at a vehicle manufacturing facility - any old meter (or a test light) will do for merely detecting 12V, but the tech I was working with insisted on using a high end Fluke because it was "more accurate."

Also, I've seen "model discrimination" among Fluke models.  People refused to use my Fluke 25, insisting on the 87, even when the features of the 87 were unnecessary.  I finally plopped both of them on my desk, and connected them to my power supply and showed that the 25 read exactly the same.


I feel better when my battered, scratched 25 is 6 feet in the air on top of a machine instead of the 87.  I paid 10 bucks for the 25, and spent 10 minutes "tweaking it."  (would have taken only 5 if I had my tongue angle correct, but this was before Dave's video)

(Although I own several Fluke brand meters, it's interesting to note that the only meters I've ever purchased new were Agilents.)
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 01:23:12 pm by Excavatoree »
 


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