General > General Technical Chat
heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
Siwastaja:
Money can be a red flag but presence of red flag is only a hint, not proof of anything, and some red flags are thus false. Surprisingly many otherwise sane people fail to see this. Besides, money is not a very good red flag because human nature tries to make money out of everything. This being said, it's still important to remember the "follow the money" principle.
bsfeechannel:
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2023, 10:16:00 am ---And we saw how the unwillingness to do that during and now after covid, not only caused them to fail epicly, but it destoryed almost all of the communities respect in science (and politics, if there was any respect there to begin with).
I see this same thing happening again with climate science and climate politics.
--- End quote ---
Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
tautech:
--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 04, 2023, 01:25:15 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2023, 10:16:00 am ---And we saw how the unwillingness to do that during and now after covid, not only caused them to fail epicly, but it destoryed almost all of the communities respect in science (and politics, if there was any respect there to begin with).
I see this same thing happening again with climate science and climate politics.
--- End quote ---
Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
--- End quote ---
Proper real vaccines prevent transmission.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: tautech on August 04, 2023, 01:32:17 am ---
--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 04, 2023, 01:25:15 am ---Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
--- End quote ---
Proper real vaccines prevent transmission.
--- End quote ---
And after proper real vaccines, we usually do not see peace-time record high increase in excess mortality, but the opposite. I had some hopes for the vaccine, too, and ended up taking two shots which I obviously regret - the product I got is now officially banned due to heart failures - but I wonder how anyone can act like this farce was anything else than utter disaster. I guess we can pretty easily see here the difference between scientifically oriented and religious people. In science, admitting failures and doing better next time is also a big thing. Only in religion is God perfect and never makes mistakes, such that even if God sometimes causes us misery, there must be reason for it and we must accept it and still praise the God.
For me, it is obvious I will be much much more careful when trusting medical authorities in the future. Our kid gets all the classic jabs but none of the new/weird stuff, whatever they come up with. If that makes us anti vaxers or social outcasts, then be it.
Zero999:
--- Quote from: tautech on August 04, 2023, 01:32:17 am ---
--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 04, 2023, 01:25:15 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2023, 10:16:00 am ---And we saw how the unwillingness to do that during and now after covid, not only caused them to fail epicly, but it destoryed almost all of the communities respect in science (and politics, if there was any respect there to begin with).
I see this same thing happening again with climate science and climate politics.
--- End quote ---
Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
--- End quote ---
Proper real vaccines prevent transmission.
--- End quote ---
Not true. The influenza vaccine doesn't prevent transmission, yet is widely given to vulnerable people. The goal is to prevent severe disease and death. It's true there's some controversy about whether it's worthwhile, but that's another thing.
The problem with the COVID-19 vaccines is many so-called liberal democracies made them mandatory, if one wanted to go to a public place, or work, even though they didn't prevent transmission. Even in the UK, the government mandated them for care home workers, when the R number for the current variant was 13 and the vaccine only reduced transmission by 30%. Fortunately it was scrapped, before it was pushed on to all NHS staff.
--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 04, 2023, 01:25:15 am ---
--- Quote from: EEVblog on August 02, 2023, 10:16:00 am ---And we saw how the unwillingness to do that during and now after covid, not only caused them to fail epicly, but it destoryed almost all of the communities respect in science (and politics, if there was any respect there to begin with).
I see this same thing happening again with climate science and climate politics.
--- End quote ---
Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
--- End quote ---
Science failled during and after the pandemic. The measures taken were not evidence based. There wasn't any evidence masks, or keeping 2m appart from one another, prevented transmission of respiratory viruses. No one proved closing schools and bussinesses wouldn't do more harm in the long run, than good. There wasn't any proof of a risk vs benefit for many taking the vaccine, especially those with natural immunity. At best it just delays reinfection for awhile, but the risk of getting sick from reinfection is tiny, quite possibly lower than that of the vaccine.
Such authoritarian policies require a huge burden of proof, which didn't exist.
--- Quote from: Siwastaja on August 04, 2023, 05:20:11 am ---
--- Quote from: tautech on August 04, 2023, 01:32:17 am ---
--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on August 04, 2023, 01:25:15 am ---Science failed during and "after" covid? Didn't we manage to come up with multiple vaccines in record time? Didn't we discuss and learn about virus infection in schools, at home, on the net, whatever, like we had never done before? How can science have failed when we exactly improved our knowledge about (and techniques to deal with) the issue at hand? I don't get it.
--- End quote ---
Proper real vaccines prevent transmission.
--- End quote ---
And after proper real vaccines, we usually do not see peace-time record high increase in excess mortality, but the opposite. I had some hopes for the vaccine, too, and ended up taking two shots which I obviously regret - the product I got is now officially banned due to heart failures - but I wonder how anyone can act like this farce was anything else than utter disaster. I guess we can pretty easily see here the difference between scientifically oriented and religious people. In science, admitting failures and doing better next time is also a big thing. Only in religion is God perfect and never makes mistakes, such that even if God sometimes causes us misery, there must be reason for it and we must accept it and still praise the God.
For me, it is obvious I will be much much more careful when trusting medical authorities in the future. Our kid gets all the classic jabs but none of the new/weird stuff, whatever they come up with. If that makes us anti vaxers or social outcasts, then be it.
--- End quote ---
Which vaccine did you have?
Some countries were more cautious than others. Many European countries banned Moderna in the under 40s, whist it was still pushed on everyone in Canada. AstraZeneca was ceased in the UK, but never banned and they didn't admit it wasn't safe.
I got two doses of AstraZeneca, when I was 39, even though it wasn't recommened for the under 40s. I belived it to be slighly safer for me, as the data I had seen showed the risk of blood clots from AstraZeneca, was mostly in women and they wanted to give me Pfizer, which carried a risk of myocarditis, but that was mostly in men. Fortunately I didn't have any complications, but I don't know whether I made the right decision now. I rejected the booster, because it wasn't subject to the same level of testing and it was the Pfizer, which I hadn't had an didn't want to take the risk, when there was not solid data to back it up.
Regarding excess deaths. There's still no definitive proof, they're linked to the vaccines. Some of them will be, others will be down to the virus weakening people and many will be due to the drastic policies put in place to deal with the pandemic.
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