Author Topic: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.  (Read 31454 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline mendip_discovery

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1024
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #125 on: August 04, 2023, 03:08:45 pm »
I am working my way through this thread. This is one of those topics that is hard to discuss as there are lunatics at each end making it hard to have conversations about things without it turning into a shouting match.

I am curious about some of the headline temperatures for example recent UK hotspots have not been the traditional places where the weather was recorded its been some random Airport in the UK. Where before the highest temp recorded etc was from a select few places (37 ish). I suspect this was because of the way weather data was recorded, it had to be a trustworthy person and location.

Have the historical temperatures been correct to follow the new definitions of the SI units?
With the historical data, how much can we trust its accuracy? Was there any traceability or testing done on the thermometers, how accurately was the reading taken and did they actually do it or was it another one of those jobs to be done that sometimes people just made up.
Modern methods of measurement are digitally done and recorded every second/30 seconds therefore able to catch the peaks better than the old glass thermometer.
How has the microclimate near the recording stations changed over the years? Lots more buildings, more tarmac, fewer trees and intensive farming all have effects.

There are many other things that we just put trust into the scientists to do their job well but not all do. I really dislike the terminology that keeps getting banded about with emergency/crisis as it doesn't help the conversation. I remember a few years back a reporter visited a group of protesters and asked them about the information behind what was written on the banners and on the leaflets they handed out, very few had any knowledge of the information but they were willing to hand out leaflets and shout at people.

I get tired of it all, the BBC News is pushing out a story about climate this and that every few days and eventually I know I will just switch off from it all. I have never flown in an aeroplane, I holiday near home, I try to do my part to avoid making a massive dent in the environment...meanwhile, the wealthy[1] people of the world do WTF they want as they can afford to.

btw the UK Weather people have got temperature records going back some 170 years and the data is there to look at if you want at https://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/climate/maps-and-data/historic-station-data

[1]Not all but enough for me to hold most of them to account for it.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
--
So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7509
  • Country: va
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #126 on: August 04, 2023, 03:54:47 pm »
It's a three step process, in brief:
1) Observe the phenomenon, i.e. make precise measurements on the observable parameters
2) Guess a theory, best in form of closed equations, which combines the parameters from 1), and try to identify possible correlations amongst them.
As Weather and Climate are like Thermodynamics non-deterministic, you have to use statistical methods and numerical simulation instead.
Both methods have to describe exactly the known, historic data. The theory will allow extrapolation in e.g. geometrical or timely manner.
Usually there are several different theories, either contradicting each other (which is good), or giving different predictions.
3) The theories/simulations have to be validated, again by experimental methods, by checking their predictions

The theories, which fail versus experiment, are definitely false.
Those which agree with experiment are "not wrong" only.

Doesn't work with Y2K problems, which covid was. Scientists could figure out something and make a prediction, and then because people are dying (and/or potentially dying) those predictions are used to mitigate the effects. So the predictions turn on to be wrong because they've been used to manipulate the results and the scientists (and their models) get poo-poo'd.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: 00
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #127 on: August 04, 2023, 03:57:52 pm »
Science failled during and after the pandemic. The measures taken were not evidence based. There wasn't any evidence masks, or keeping 2m appart from one another, prevented transmission of respiratory viruses. No one proved closing schools and bussinesses wouldn't do more harm in the long run, than good.  There wasn't any proof of a risk vs benefit for many taking the vaccine, especially those with natural immunity. At best it just delays reinfection for awhile, but the risk of getting sick from reinfection is tiny, quite possibly lower than that of the vaccine.

So people expected a miracle but instead what came out of the lab were advancements, setbacks, hunches, guesses, theories but an overall improved understanding of the pandemic, how these viruses spread, infect, debilitate and kill, uh you know, science as usual.

Quote
Such authoritarian policies require a huge burden of proof, which didn't exist.

People confusing science with politics is an interesting subject of study by science.
 

Offline Howardlong

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5424
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #128 on: August 04, 2023, 04:09:04 pm »
On my pension and investments I've shifted some towards ESG, but I have to retain some in high-growth or I'll have nothing to retire on.
ESG is something set up with the best of intenions, but is bad. Companies will just tick boxes, to gain higher ESG scores, but not have any real impact. They'll engauge in greenwashing and send their employees on stupid diversity courses, which many people here have complained about. It's something I steer clear of.
frightening.

It's a corporate virtue signaling con that is already collapsing as was inevitable. It was a clever ploy to link environmentalism to the woke agenda though. If you didn't like ESG because of one of those things then it provided a very convenient mechanism to accuse you of either racism of anti-environmentalism.
Yes, stay away.

Furthermore, ESG scoring used as a way to divert attention while nefarious work remains under way.

In the UK, it's turned out that the even financial regulator has been pushing ESG scoring onto the banks. This is in an effort for them to try to show banks have gained some kind of moral legitimacy after the CDO and LIBOR scams, numerous money laundering fines, failing to pass on interest rate rises to savers, and more recently the various debanking scandals.

Using subject access requests, it transpires that at least one bank that we know of so far has been using its ESG dogma to debank customers who've done noting illegal, but because they don't hold the same ESG values that the banks might profess to hold.

Until very recently, I was unaware of B Corp, which is an ESG scoring outfit. It's just another pay-per-view vanity business award scam: to become "certified" companies have to tick various boxes. Note that B Corp is a supplier. They are not a stockholder, customer or an employee, yet they are dictating how a company does business in return for some box ticking.

Meanwhile, the dirty laundry is still dirty.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1024
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #129 on: August 04, 2023, 04:15:16 pm »
Science failled during and after the pandemic. The measures taken were not evidence based. There wasn't any evidence masks, or keeping 2m appart from one another, prevented transmission of respiratory viruses. No one proved closing schools and bussinesses wouldn't do more harm in the long run, than good.  There wasn't any proof of a risk vs benefit for many taking the vaccine, especially those with natural immunity. At best it just delays reinfection for awhile, but the risk of getting sick from reinfection is tiny, quite possibly lower than that of the vaccine.

So people expected a miracle but instead what came out of the lab were advancements, setbacks, hunches, guesses, theories but an overall improved understanding of the pandemic, how these viruses spread, infect, debilitate and kill, uh you know, science as usual.

Jeepers (not the actual word I used). This crap again. Something happened that was expected but due to lots of unknowns, it's almost impossible to define a clear system to protect everyone. Then when the turd hit the fan the ones in charge suddenly had people asking them WTF do we do. They in turn looked at the clever people and said what can I tell them otherwise the press will murder me and the public will hate me forever. So the clever people came up with basic simple things that might reduce a repeat of historic events that have happened before all without having a full understanding of the bad thing that was happening. These clever people are used to spending months/years studying stuff and aren't used to giving quick answers with limited data. I often what would have happened if high up did nothing and the world just carried on like normal, who would be held to blame for all the excess deaths.

What I want to know from the pandemic is what steps are being taken to prevent another one, I really am not looking forward to another one of these because the next one might kill me.
Motorcyclist, Nerd, and I work in a Calibration Lab :-)
--
So everyone is clear, Calibration = Taking Measurement against a known source, Verification = Checking Calibration against Specification, Adjustment = Adjusting the unit to be within specifications.
 
The following users thanked this post: tom66

Offline Zero999

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 20363
  • Country: gb
  • 0999
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #130 on: August 04, 2023, 06:41:38 pm »
This can be seen in UK data.

Look at the deaths following the vaccination programme which reached everyone following June 2021.  That's right when you'd expect another wave... yet it didn't come.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=nation&areaName=England

Vaccination data (bottom chart showing cumulative count):
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=England

about 50 million doses had been given by that point which was every vulnerable person having 1st + 2nd jab and many starting their 1st jab.  From early 2022 onwards no COVID restrictions applied any more.  The vaccine stopped the virus.
The data you've posted doesn't prove the vaccines stopped transmission, only made the disease less severe, by reducing deaths, but even then there are confounding factors.

The death rate was high during the first two waves, the original variant and alpha. Delta occurred in summer, when transmission of respiratory viruses is lower anyway, then Omicron came along, which still spread irrespective of the vaccines, but wasn't anywhere near as pathogenic, as it tended to cause more upper airway infection, rather than getting into the lungs, which was probably also why it spread more easily.

Doesn't work with Y2K problems, which covid was. Scientists could figure out something and make a prediction, and then because people are dying (and/or potentially dying) those predictions are used to mitigate the effects. So the predictions turn on to be wrong because they've been used to manipulate the results and the scientists (and their models) get poo-poo'd.
That's incorrect because not all countries did the same. Some didn't do much to limit the spread, yet didn't do as badly as some of those who did.

Science failled during and after the pandemic. The measures taken were not evidence based. There wasn't any evidence masks, or keeping 2m appart from one another, prevented transmission of respiratory viruses. No one proved closing schools and bussinesses wouldn't do more harm in the long run, than good.  There wasn't any proof of a risk vs benefit for many taking the vaccine, especially those with natural immunity. At best it just delays reinfection for awhile, but the risk of getting sick from reinfection is tiny, quite possibly lower than that of the vaccine.

So people expected a miracle but instead what came out of the lab were advancements, setbacks, hunches, guesses, theories but an overall improved understanding of the pandemic, how these viruses spread, infect, debilitate and kill, uh you know, science as usual.

Jeepers (not the actual word I used). This crap again. Something happened that was expected but due to lots of unknowns, it's almost impossible to define a clear system to protect everyone. Then when the turd hit the fan the ones in charge suddenly had people asking them WTF do we do. They in turn looked at the clever people and said what can I tell them otherwise the press will murder me and the public will hate me forever. So the clever people came up with basic simple things that might reduce a repeat of historic events that have happened before all without having a full understanding of the bad thing that was happening. These clever people are used to spending months/years studying stuff and aren't used to giving quick answers with limited data. I often what would have happened if high up did nothing and the world just carried on like normal, who would be held to blame for all the excess deaths.

What I want to know from the pandemic is what steps are being taken to prevent another one, I really am not looking forward to another one of these because the next one might kill me.
The problem is there were a lot of clever people, with different ideas of what to do. Some thought restricting all social contact to a minimum was the correct way to go about it. Other clever people were worried that social isolation, the cancellation of medical appointments, business and school closures and the resulting economic downturn would cost more lives, than they would save. Many governments only listened to those who were in support of lockdowns and actively censored those who didn't.

 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10035
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #131 on: August 04, 2023, 07:13:00 pm »
Proper real vaccines prevent transmission.
Some do, some don't. It depends how transmission occurs for the particular disease. For many respiratory diseases spreading occurs mostly from the sinus tracts, outside the body's main barrier. Natural infection tends to build immunity separately on both sides of that barrier. Injecting things directly into the body doesn't trigger training of the immune system in the sinuses, outside the barrier. So, it won't train your system to reduce transmission. This is a well known issue with things like flu vaccines. It should have been known to any expert pontificating on how a COVID vaccine would stop transmission, which it was unlikely to do from day one, and less and less likely as the disease was understood. They specifically did NO testing for transmission prevention during the approval of the mRNA vaccines, even though this was the stated high priority reason for developing them. It was a bait and switch.

Its worth noting that the mRNA vaccines are not vaccines in any traditional sense. The mRNA causes your body to produce the actual vaccine, which the immune system then trains on. The amount of vaccine your body actually produces is very poorly controlled.


 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #132 on: August 04, 2023, 07:33:41 pm »
What I want to know from the pandemic is what steps are being taken to prevent another one, I really am not looking forward to another one of these because the next one might kill me.
Nothing and don't worry. History has shown these world scale pandemic events repeat every 100 years. Or 3 generations.

And this also circles back to the topic: nowadays almost every extreme weather event is chalked up to climate change while extreme weather has existed longer than people can record such events. We have to be really carefull not to be talked into some kind of doomsday that will happen next week.

For this reason the Netherlands specifies protection against extreme weather / water levels as (statistically) once in several thousand year events.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 07:39:31 pm by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1381
  • Country: us
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #133 on: August 04, 2023, 07:46:34 pm »
coppice is correct:  MRNA vaccines are different, it is true that they might cause one person to make more antigen than another person. It is also noteworthy that there are no published standards of the concentrations of various agents in the vaccine.  At least I have not been able to find any.Some folks think that the concentration of the active agents varied greatly with some batches being nearly zero.Every other vaccine has some standardization.

Some vaccines do give immunity to infection and thus there is no transmission. Other vaccines give protective effect to the infection. This will not prevent transmission. There were some vaccines that actually accentuated the disease and made more people die.
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
Everything after a lie becomes a "coverup" even if it is a true statement. It is almost impossible to regain trust after such a claim.
 

Offline PlainName

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7509
  • Country: va
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #134 on: August 04, 2023, 07:46:47 pm »
Quote
once in several thousand year events

How do you determine that a couple, or three, instances of a thousand year event in reasonably close succession hasn't turned it into a 500 year event (or worse)? Or has? Could just be a 10K-year event that triggered it.
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #135 on: August 04, 2023, 07:54:29 pm »
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
No, you misunderstood. Vaccinated people get less sick, produce less 'carriers' and in this way the transmission is reduced (which in the end stops spreading Covid).
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1381
  • Country: us
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #136 on: August 04, 2023, 07:56:51 pm »
No, I did not "misunderstand" that's what they said.
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #137 on: August 04, 2023, 08:29:58 pm »
This can be seen in UK data.

Look at the deaths following the vaccination programme which reached everyone following June 2021.  That's right when you'd expect another wave... yet it didn't come.
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/deaths?areaType=nation&areaName=England

Vaccination data (bottom chart showing cumulative count):
https://coronavirus.data.gov.uk/details/vaccinations?areaType=nation&areaName=England

about 50 million doses had been given by that point which was every vulnerable person having 1st + 2nd jab and many starting their 1st jab.  From early 2022 onwards no COVID restrictions applied any more.  The vaccine stopped the virus.
The data you've posted doesn't prove the vaccines stopped transmission, only made the disease less severe, by reducing deaths, but even then there are confounding factors.

The death rate was high during the first two waves, the original variant and alpha. Delta occurred in summer, when transmission of respiratory viruses is lower anyway, then Omicron came along, which still spread irrespective of the vaccines, but wasn't anywhere near as pathogenic, as it tended to cause more upper airway infection, rather than getting into the lungs, which was probably also why it spread more easily.

To be clear, I mean slight hyperbole with the phrase "the vaccine stopped the virus", but appreciate that my tone is hard to convey by text. It reduced transmission, by quite a significant amount.  And I believe most healthcare professionals had a similar opinion.  It's a bit like lockdowns didn't stop transmission but they sure did reduce it.

There are published studies, like the one I linked, showing around a 65% reduction in disease severity with Omicron.  The Omicron mutation likely came about in part due to vaccine pressure.  We can say it's partially fortunate that the virus mutated into a less serious variant but by inhibiting its main entry into cells we strongly pushed the selection pressure in this direction.

Side note - It is debatable whether it was justifiable to vaccinate all age groups.  However, given the early information available, it was probably the right choice.  Now what we know is that the vaccines don't directly prevent transmission and only slightly reduce severity in mild/asymptomatic cases (with asymptomatic transmission being widely disputed), it probably swings the other way. 
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 08:31:39 pm by tom66 »
 

Offline AndyBeez

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 858
  • Country: nu
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #138 on: August 04, 2023, 09:05:20 pm »
How to stop climate change?

On behalf of the nations who are about to be drowned under an apocalyptic tsunami of boiling sea water, we demand the world's leaders meet in a luxury five star resort. Where, they spend two intensive weeks figuring our which luxury five star resort they are going to visit next. This event must be held every year and should be run under the auspice of the United Nations. And even when climate change is defeated, they must continue to meet, just in case it comes back again.

Beating the ass of climate change is a piece of piss. No need for stopping oil, deep coal mining or gas fracking, instead we appoint an entourage of bureaucrats to piss our money into the ocean, so they can stop sea level rise.

Next port of call on the floating gravy boat of wealth, privilege and self-entitlement, Dubai and the hyper rich oil states of the UAE.

It's planet A for you, One World for them : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_United_Nations_Climate_Change_Conference

+ Always thoroughly greenwash your hands before handling climate change funding.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 09:13:54 pm by AndyBeez »
 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 28429
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #139 on: August 04, 2023, 09:16:05 pm »
No, I did not "misunderstand" that's what they said.
And what 'they' said is true but not in the way you understood it.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Online tautech

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 29813
  • Country: nz
  • Taupaki Technologies Ltd. Siglent Distributor NZ.
    • Taupaki Technologies Ltd.
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #140 on: August 04, 2023, 09:24:35 pm »
How to stop climate change?
You can't !
All we can do is properly determine how much man might have an impact on it with robust science that includes any/all factors that might impact it.

Like others, I'm unconvinced we have a problem the earth itself can't sort out.
Avid Rabid Hobbyist.
Some stuff seen @ Siglent HQ cannot be shared.
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 15802
  • Country: fr
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #141 on: August 04, 2023, 09:26:48 pm »
Yes, the oceans are boiling. Maybe we can cook some pasta.
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10035
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #142 on: August 04, 2023, 09:44:05 pm »
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
No, you misunderstood. Vaccinated people get less sick, produce less 'carriers' and in this way the transmission is reduced (which in the end stops spreading Covid).
This only works for a sterilising vaccine. We don't have those for COVID, or for most of the other diseases which transmit from the sinus cavity. There is no evidence of a measurable reduction of transmission with the weakly effective COVID vaccines.
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #143 on: August 04, 2023, 10:02:49 pm »
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
No, you misunderstood. Vaccinated people get less sick, produce less 'carriers' and in this way the transmission is reduced (which in the end stops spreading Covid).
This only works for a sterilising vaccine. We don't have those for COVID, or for most of the other diseases which transmit from the sinus cavity. There is no evidence of a measurable reduction of transmission with the weakly effective COVID vaccines.

I don't know why so many people misunderstand the concept.

Yes, having a vaccine for COVID does not appear to reduce transmissibility of the virus directly when sick.

However if the vaccine means you get less sick and therefore produce less viral load, you will transmit the virus less, when you look across a whole population.  And there is ample evidence for this - both at the population level and in numerous studies on the various vaccines.

 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline Buriedcode

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1718
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #144 on: August 04, 2023, 10:55:14 pm »
Ahh the Nobel Disease https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Nobel_disease strikes again.  I'm still unsure how much of it is success leading to arrogance, or just age - generally as people get older they accumulate memories of all the times they were right, but forget how often they were wrong so we all get quite stubborn in our old age, in the face of uncomfortable facts .
 

Offline coppice

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 10035
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #145 on: August 04, 2023, 11:06:23 pm »
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
No, you misunderstood. Vaccinated people get less sick, produce less 'carriers' and in this way the transmission is reduced (which in the end stops spreading Covid).
This only works for a sterilising vaccine. We don't have those for COVID, or for most of the other diseases which transmit from the sinus cavity. There is no evidence of a measurable reduction of transmission with the weakly effective COVID vaccines.

I don't know why so many people misunderstand the concept.

Yes, having a vaccine for COVID does not appear to reduce transmissibility of the virus directly when sick.

However if the vaccine means you get less sick and therefore produce less viral load, you will transmit the virus less, when you look across a whole population.  And there is ample evidence for this - both at the population level and in numerous studies on the various vaccines.
With COVID, as with many respiratory diseases, you shed from your sinuses. The viral load in your body is irrelevant. The viral load in your nose, and out of reach of the immunity a COVID vaccine can infer, is where the transmission comes from. Where is your evidence to the contrary?
 

Offline tom66

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7336
  • Country: gb
  • Electronics Hobbyist & FPGA/Embedded Systems EE
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #146 on: August 04, 2023, 11:13:08 pm »
With COVID, as with many respiratory diseases, you shed from your sinuses. The viral load in your body is irrelevant. The viral load in your nose, and out of reach of the immunity a COVID vaccine can infer, is where the transmission comes from. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

It's really just logic.  The less sick you are, the less you cough, the less you sneeze, the less likely you are to have any symptoms at all.  In the initial studies of the Pfizer vaccine, around 70% of people infected experienced no symptoms at all.  Since asymptomatic spread of COVID is close to being a myth (there is some risk but it's very mild) you can infer the reduction in risk just from a reduction in symptoms.  Viral spread isn't binary too - yes, you can be infected by a few virons, but the more viral load you receive in any given period of time, the more likely you are to experience serious side effects.   Remember the otherwise healthy Chinese doctor, Li Wenliang, who died of COVID trying to break the news of this novel virus?  He and many other healthcare workers suffered the consequences of a lack of appropriate PPE and protocol, they'd normally survive if they had only been exposed to a small dose of the virus but frequent and significant exposure killed them.
 
The following users thanked this post: NiHaoMike

Offline Buriedcode

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1718
  • Country: gb
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #147 on: August 04, 2023, 11:13:37 pm »
With COVID, as with many respiratory diseases, you shed from your sinuses. The viral load in your body is irrelevant. The viral load in your nose, and out of reach of the immunity a COVID vaccine can infer, is where the transmission comes from. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

Making mask wearing all the more important.
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1381
  • Country: us
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #148 on: August 04, 2023, 11:29:43 pm »
Quote from: tom66 on Today at 10:02:49 pm>Quote from: coppice on Today at 09:44:05 pm>Quote from: nctnico on Today at 07:54:29 pm>Quote from: Wallace Gasiewicz on Today at 07:46:34 pm
We were told repeatedly that the COVID vaccine would stop transmission of the disease.  This was and is an obvious lie and brings into question anything that the medical government complex tells us.
No, you misunderstood. Vaccinated people get less sick, produce less 'carriers' and in this way the transmission is reduced (which in the end stops spreading Covid).
This only works for a sterilising vaccine. We don't have those for COVID, or for most of the other diseases which transmit from the sinus cavity. There is no evidence of a measurable reduction of transmission with the weakly effective COVID vaccines.

I don't know why so many people misunderstand the concept.

Yes, having a vaccine for COVID does not appear to reduce transmissibility of the virus directly when sick.

However if the vaccine means you get less sick and therefore produce less viral load, you will transmit the virus less, when you look across a whole population.  And there is ample evidence for this - both at the population level and in numerous studies on the various vaccines.


NO. 

Some viruses do exhibit this wave phenom. There are explanations, which you may or may not agree with but the viruses do exhibit this behaviour.   This happens without vaccines.

https://health-desk.org/articles/what-are-first-second-and-third-waves-of-infections   

Yes there are "sterilizing vaccines" which can stop transmission. COVID Vaccine is not one of them. 

If the vaccine curtails the illness associated with the disease,  the person infected is unaware they are sick and is more likely to go out and spread it.    There is no evidence that it decreases viral load,If you have a paper on this, a legitimate one, I would like to see it.  Viral load in secretions only has to be high enough to transmit. more is NOT NECESSARILY more infectious. I have not seen any studies on the load necessary to be legitimately infectious.

To return to the CLIMATE CHANGE issue, we were supposed to freeze to death according to experts in the 1970s.  The sea level was supposed to drown Manhattan years ago.   It is hard to take seriously people who are consistently wrong.


https://c8.alamy.com/comp/c89h78/occupy-london-man-with-sandwich-boards-saying-the-end-is-nigh-in-front-c89h78.jpg


https://www.straspres.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/End-is-near.png
« Last Edit: August 04, 2023, 11:33:27 pm by Wallace Gasiewicz »
 

Offline EEVblog

  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 39026
  • Country: au
    • EEVblog
Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #149 on: August 05, 2023, 12:09:01 am »
I don't know why so many people misunderstand the concept.

Because:
a) Our government leaders specifically told us this in no uncertain terms.
b) Our governments implemented mandates for government workers based on this supposed fact.
c) Companies imposed their own mandates with the legal backing of our governments based on this supposed fact.

It was all bullshit. Argue all you want in theory and individual cases, but on the whole it didn't work, this is now admitted by practically all involved. They got it completely wrong. Don't be surprised when now people don't trust the government or our scientifical bodies again.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 12:10:47 am by EEVblog »
 
The following users thanked this post: SiliconWizard


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf