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heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
Bud:
Amen.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: snarkysparky on August 01, 2023, 11:59:50 am ---Well, I didn't expect these answers. I thought this group was more reasonable.
--- End quote ---
So you keep repeating the same mistake. People you trust, some maybe for years of mutual understanding, and they disagree and give a different viewpoint on one matter. What do you choose to do:
1) stop for a moment. Think carefully. These people have been right before. Why they now say what they say? What do they think? Maybe they do have a point? Maybe the matter is indeed complicated and multi-faceted.
or
2) these people are all unreasonable! They have gone nuts, or maybe they always were full of BS! The mainstream media I follow, which lives off clicks, and the "scientific community" as reported through said media, must know better than these experts I personally trusted
And you choose 2. Why?
EEVblog:
--- Quote from: snarkysparky on August 01, 2023, 02:18:44 am ---I don't understand. This man is an intellectual giant in the science community. He has aligned himself with the very unscientific group "co2coalition"
why would a man with that history of achievement take such a position unless he really believed it to be the truth.
--- End quote ---
I have no idea who this guy is or who that group is, but what I do know is that a lot of people lately (including those in the science fields) are getting rather sick and tied of all the extreme climate fear being shoved down everyone's throat, and having their lives impacted or potentially impacted whether they like it or not.
It is absolutely possible to "pro environment", "pro climate change" etc yet be "anti fear mongering"
And it's also a reasonable position to think that the climate is changing but that we can't really do much about it, and it's a better option to adapt to the changes than try and destroy everyones lives to meet some arbitrary "net zero" or other goal. or at least to discuss this stuff reasonably without being labelled like you seem to be doing here.
Siwastaja:
--- Quote from: snarkysparky on August 01, 2023, 11:59:50 am ---CO2 warming is absolutely a thing.
--- End quote ---
Who said otherwise? Some do, I know, but not everyone you are grouping together. A sane person can reach the conclusion that minimizing CO2 emissions would be an extremely good idea, without having to subscribe to the idea of there being a serious crisis including significant sea level rise, increase of climate-related deaths (while the opposite is actually true), loss of tillable land (we don't exactly know; there are absolutely no signs of this happening; odds are good the opposite will happen), etc.
The uncertainty factor in climate change alone, plus political instability of fossil fuels are reasons enough to minimize fossil fuel use. And reducing fossil fuel use for heating and transport purposes are the key points. We should concentrate on these two fully, and avoid getting sidetracked.
The thing is, while we concentrate on fear-mongering, we also concentrate on doing things that are ineffective in CO2 reduction, but cause mental stress and reduce our living standards.
Bicurico:
The whole "green movement" is a scam and an idiologic stupidity.
It does not make any difference if we abolish petrol cars in Germany, in Europe or even in the whole western world...
It does not make any difference if we prohibit the use of a fireplace or carbon based heating in Europe...
...
This list could go on.
Any rational human will recognize that the carbon fingerprint of western societies is ridicule to the potential carbon fingerprint of the third world, once it starts having the same life quality as we have. What if every Indian or Chinese person has it's own car (like we western people have), it's own electronics (TV, phone, laptop, etc.) and eats a beef per day? And why wouldn't they be entitled to the same standards as we?
I am not denying climate changes, but:
1) The climate changes naturally on planet Earth. There have been ice ages and hot ages before humans.
2) The problem is not with "mother Earth": Earth will continue, no matter what, it is the humans that may be unfit to live in an altered Earth.
3) The single most important issue, that nobody seems to want to acknoledge, is that there are already too many human beings on Earth! And the growth is exponential! We are 8 billion people now, soon we will be 10 billion. In 1950 we were just 2.5 billion people.
Why doesn't anyone speak about the population size? Easy:
1) We live in a world run by a huge pyramid scheme, where today's retirement plans are paid by the tomorrows tax payers. We need an increasing population to avoid the system to crash.
2) In order to pay interest rates, we need to grow the economy, so that more is produced and yesterday's loans can be paid with interest today.
3) The richer can only get richer if there are more people.
This cycle needs to be broken. Retirment should only be paid to the extend of what you have put aside. That money is to be invested in a secure way. But you should not receive more than your savings.
Interest rates need to be abolished.
Migration has to be stopped. We cannot compensate the lack of births in western countries by importing masses of people from third world countries.
This planet needs less people and every couple should have only one child. There, I said it.
Will it contribute to the population growing older? Yes it will.
How will we finance it? I don't care - people need to work until they die or make their own retirement plan.
What cannot continue is this exponential grow in population, that combined with increasing living standards will absorve more than this planet has to offer.
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