Author Topic: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.  (Read 31432 times)

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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #175 on: August 05, 2023, 12:45:36 pm »
In 1978, being 17 years old and already very well educated STEM-wise, I always watched technical and scientific TV programs.
This science journalist and psychology professor in the picture was quite famous.
His daughter co-founded the Green party in Germany.
Since that time, I disdained this Green movement, due to their absolute incompetence in technical and scientific matters.

In this show, he just presents the Mauna Loa CO2 measurement, and explains that in 2050 a temperature rise of 2..3°C would be expected.
He also explains the other 5 or 6 threats in discussion, from the Club of Rome: "Limits of Growth". He already explained the oil consumption dilemma, i.e. that a reduction in the Industry nations would not lead to a global reduction, because there would be a rising consumption in the 3rd World, instead.

So the Exxon study is nothing of a secret, as these facts were obviously publicly known.

I remember well, that I was a bit frightened by this TV show, but due to my education, I always thought that we'd be able to find technical solutions.
Like Prof von Ditfurth, I'm as convinced, that over-population will kill or reduce mankind sooner or later, but there's barely anything we can do about.
 
I think, I aligned my personal behavior following this and similar other publications. 
So I always tried to save resources as far as I could. My passion to repair EVERYTHING and design technical things originates from that period of time, already.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 01:22:19 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #176 on: August 05, 2023, 01:11:34 pm »
It was (immediately) clear from the hospital admission data that the rule had no effect
It would take at least 2 weeks for any effect to begin to show, so perhaps you might want to define 'immediately' so it's a bit more believable.
Nope in Amsterdam there was a test with cameras in order to see how busy the streets were. And guess what: no real difference.
Together with the evening clock a whole range of other measures were taken. You cannot attribute the effect only to this very harsh measure.

Er.. you've completely lost me. What effect did this evening clock (whatever that was) have, or meant to have? I assumed it would be a change in people turning up in hospital due to covid symptoms, but your comment above seems to note that places didn't get less busy and there is nothing whatever about covid symptoms. Perhaps you could clarify since your original (quoted here) suggests the former, which is the context for my comment:

Quote
In the Netherlands there was an evening clock between 21.00 and 04.30. Nobody from the scientific community said, hey, a virus cannot watch clocks. Why these strange cutoff times? It was (immediately) clear from the hospital admission data that the rule had no effect, but still, politics endured this rule for three months.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #177 on: August 05, 2023, 01:17:07 pm »
And where are the scientist speaking up now we have concrete data of not warming up/decrease of ice?

When is the science community standing up because we have data that prove that solar panels are increasing CO2 levels?

Where is the scientific community stating to all government officials: it is not true that the world is on fire.

The last thing we need during a crisis it multiple disagreements of what, when, how, etc. You want rules by social media, and the loudest and flashiest video will win.

We elect governments to deal with that stuff. Scientist can advise them (and disagree) but the politicians decide policy. They may get it wrong, and if they do so mendaciously then hopefully they get voted out and a better government installed. That's how you get to be able to do 70mph up a motorway without dodging head-on cars whose drivers think the right way must be to drive on the right, or middle, or whatever tiktok craze is this week.
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #178 on: August 05, 2023, 01:30:09 pm »
The last thing we need during a crisis it multiple disagreements of what, when, how, etc. You want rules by social media, and the loudest and flashiest video will win.
We elect governments to deal with that stuff. Scientist can advise them (and disagree) but the politicians decide policy. They may get it wrong, and if they do so mendaciously then hopefully they get voted out and a better government installed. That's how you get to be able to do 70mph up a motorway without dodging head-on cars whose drivers think the right way must be to drive on the right, or middle, or whatever tiktok craze is this week.
My post was about the (non-)reaction from the scientific community, not about the choice of politicians.

In fact we do need multiple disagreements, if the effect of policy is interfering with fundamental rights of citizens, or are using taxpayers money for goals that are questionable.
How much should the dutch taxpayer pay for a policy that states, we will reduce global warming with 0,000036C worldwide?
The taxpayer is not dumb and knows that a day later in China a coal mine is opened that completely offsets this measure.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #179 on: August 05, 2023, 01:37:24 pm »
With COVID, as with many respiratory diseases, you shed from your sinuses. The viral load in your body is irrelevant. The viral load in your nose, and out of reach of the immunity a COVID vaccine can infer, is where the transmission comes from. Where is your evidence to the contrary?

It's really just logic.
So, we have the smartest person in history among us. The rest of us struggle to figure out how the interplay of various factors in a complex system will play out, and need to do extensive research in the real world. You've worked out how to reduce it to logic.
The less sick you are, the less you cough, the less you sneeze, the less likely you are to have any symptoms at all.  In the initial studies of the Pfizer vaccine, around 70% of people infected experienced no symptoms at all.  Since asymptomatic spread of COVID is close to being a myth (there is some risk but it's very mild) you can infer the reduction in risk just from a reduction in symptoms.
Can you cite your sources, or does your logical process avoid the need for them?
Viral spread isn't binary too - yes, you can be infected by a few virons, but the more viral load you receive in any given period of time, the more likely you are to experience serious side effects.dose of the virus but frequent and significant exposure killed them.
So, you don't exclude complexity completely from your analysis.
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #180 on: August 05, 2023, 01:54:05 pm »
Er.. you've completely lost me. What effect did this evening clock (whatever that was) have, or meant to have? I assumed it would be a change in people turning up in hospital due to covid symptoms, but your comment above seems to note that places didn't get less busy and there is nothing whatever about covid symptoms. Perhaps you could clarify since your original (quoted here) suggests the former, which is the context for my comment:
The proposed statement was:  "less people will meet each other, in that way stop spreading the corona virus and shorten the lockdown"
Indeed in Amsterdam the cameras showed evidence that there was almost no effect on the streets.
The rule was effective on 23 January 2021 and lasted till 28 april 2021 04.30 . They expected a reduction of  9% à 10%.
Look for yourself the data (under the heading "Opnames door de tijd heen") on hospital admissions in these days. This data was available on a daily basis.

Well politicians are affected by choices from the voters. The scientific community not. And this non action described results now in a situation where people don't trust vaccines anymore even in the case one should consider safe.

 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #181 on: August 05, 2023, 02:02:05 pm »
The Minimum Infective Dose of human viral diseases appears to be quite low and it would not be easy to get his low. The MID 50 is defined as the amount of inoculum necessary to cause disease in 50% of the exposed population.
In other words it is extremely likely that any exposure to these viruses is WAY higher than the MID 50.   
The infectivity of bacteria varies and sometimes a LOT of bacteria are necessary to cause infection.  This is not to say you are entirely safe with a low dose of a pathogen.
If you wish to gain extra credit for your PHD  (piled higher and deeper) {apologies to those with the Phd degree} here is an article to keep you busy for quite a while. 

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7090536/
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 02:04:09 pm by Wallace Gasiewicz »
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #182 on: August 05, 2023, 03:13:35 pm »
My post was about the (non-)reaction from the scientific community, not about the choice of politicians.

Makes no difference. The links you gave (DailyMail!) are all arguable, probably have been argued, and all you're after is someone that will shout your view the loudest. For instance, the last URL about non-warming in Antartica doesn't have to mean global warming isn't happening - you're making the mistake that climate change means everywhere will see an increase in temperature whereas in fact is means that some places will cool because of changing climate patterns. The Japanese station may be one such, but who knows? You've read about the place - it is not secret!
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #183 on: August 05, 2023, 03:18:47 pm »
Er.. you've completely lost me. What effect did this evening clock (whatever that was) have, or meant to have? I assumed it would be a change in people turning up in hospital due to covid symptoms, but your comment above seems to note that places didn't get less busy and there is nothing whatever about covid symptoms. Perhaps you could clarify since your original (quoted here) suggests the former, which is the context for my comment:
The proposed statement was:  "less people will meet each other, in that way stop spreading the corona virus and shorten the lockdown"
Indeed in Amsterdam the cameras showed evidence that there was almost no effect on the streets.
The rule was effective on 23 January 2021 and lasted till 28 april 2021 04.30 . They expected a reduction of  9% à 10%.
Look for yourself the data (under the heading "Opnames door de tijd heen") on hospital admissions in these days. This data was available on a daily basis.

OK, well what I get from that is people ignored the demand and there was no change in hospital data BECAUSE people ignored the demand. All it's pointing out is that people can be dicks and in the face of that nothing changes. It's not news and the same happens in other fields. See MAGA/Trump, for instance.

Quote
Well politicians are affected by choices from the voters. The scientific community not. And this non action described results now in a situation where people don't trust vaccines anymore even in the case one should consider safe.

Scientists do science, not play CIV for real. They are no more qualified or capable of running a government than a celebrity has a meaningful opinion on any subject other than acting. And yet...

Also, scientists disagree with each other (as they should) so which particular set should make the political decisions? The ones on your side?

Aaaannnd... running a country is a juggling act balancing many competing and incompatible requirements. Some obvious thing may not happen because it would screw up some more important but less obvious thing, or vice versa, of course. And that's in a well-run government.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 03:28:28 pm by PlainName »
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #184 on: August 05, 2023, 03:22:20 pm »
Well, the climate scientists (not me) are making claims about global warming. They are not telling the whole truth if they don't say anything about the local conditions.

It makes all the difference if one stands up or not.
I'm not after the loudest shout. I'm stating quite clearly: that the science community has lost the trust of the public by their own deeds/words.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 03:26:32 pm by RAPo »
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #185 on: August 05, 2023, 03:28:32 pm »

OK, well what I get from that is people ignored the demand and there was no change in hospital data BECAUSE people ignored the demand. All it's pointing out is that people can be dicks and in the face of that nothing changes. It's not news and the same happens in other fields. See MAGA/Trump, for instance.
Nope, people didn't ignore. They did their usual thing. The policy was not necessary .
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #186 on: August 05, 2023, 03:50:57 pm »

OK, well what I get from that is people ignored the demand and there was no change in hospital data BECAUSE people ignored the demand. All it's pointing out is that people can be dicks and in the face of that nothing changes. It's not news and the same happens in other fields. See MAGA/Trump, for instance.
Nope, people didn't ignore. They did their usual thing. The policy was not necessary .
Again, this is why we have governments to decide when things are necessary for the general good. Individuals cannot determine that because they don't have the 20kft view, don't know what else is going on, etc. Whether the policy was necessary technically or not, with hindsight or not, is ignoring its intent and just showing how difficult it is to get people to act for the common good.
 

Offline RAPo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #187 on: August 05, 2023, 03:56:05 pm »
Again you are missing the point.
The point is the scientific community, with all their wisdom, didn't stand up and corrected the politics and informed the public.
That is what is causing the distrust of the science.
 
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Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #188 on: August 05, 2023, 04:23:41 pm »
Absolutely, the scientific community and the medical community were threatened by the Govmint bureaucrats. Doctors had licenses to loose if they did not follow the party policy, professors would loose their jobs. 
So they just rolled over and put up with the idiocy. 
You could easily get censored on any medical blog for not agreeing with the party line, so no one knew that there were people who did not agree with it. Social media was biased against any dissent.   
If you believe in Govmint control and that it is good, you must also believe that dissent is either a traitorous action or a mental disease.  Welcome to totalitarianism.
 
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Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #189 on: August 05, 2023, 05:31:02 pm »
Absolutely, the scientific community and the medical community were threatened by the Govmint bureaucrats. Doctors had licenses to loose if they did not follow the party policy, professors would loose their jobs. 
So they just rolled over and put up with the idiocy. 
You could easily get censored on any medical blog for not agreeing with the party line, so no one knew that there were people who did not agree with it. Social media was biased against any dissent.   
If you believe in Govmint control and that it is good, you must also believe that dissent is either a traitorous action or a mental disease.  Welcome to totalitarianism.

I don't regard the Medical  community, especially the epidemiologists and virologists as "Scientists", as especially here in Germany they did neither use Scientific methods, as of part 1) of my description, nor did they use overall Risk Assessment methods as I mentioned about our A3 Sheet method.

In Germany, they filed a final report about the whole government "Expert" team consisting mainly of medical guys, and it was clearly stated, that this report could not decide, whether the measures like lock-down of the whole country was appropriate or not, or had any positive effect, due to the fact, that the medical team did not collect appropriate data material at all.

As Germany was not able to make automated data acquisition, they (Mrs. Merkel) simply locked our country down, when a  limit of 35 incidents (*) / 100k people was exceeded. This arbitrary limit was simply defined by the maximum manual capacity of our local health offices, which received the data by FAX only.
Germany is really not a country of good engineering any more.

Frank

(*) "incidents" meant reported number of  people which were supposed to be sick with C.
Officially, later, they of course argued with the limited Intense Medical Care capacity of the hospitals.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 06:03:50 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #190 on: August 05, 2023, 05:36:49 pm »
One thing that winds me up though is if you have questions about climate change you automatically get labelled as a denier and therefore are not allowed in the conversation.

As a kid of the 80's I grew up with the fear of the Ozone layer being destroyed and we even had a TV show called Captain Planet and the Planeteers and that made a big thing about cleaning up the world. Yet it didn't do a thing to change stuff if the current press is to be believed.

Part of me is aware the masses always need a level of fear to keep the populace in line, cold war, world war, starvation etc. but as you get older you just see it as the way things are, no point getting angry. It is like working hard for a boss that will only make more money on your hard work.

I do note the wording has changed over the years to better cover their arses. It was global cooling then warming, and now its climate change. The planet is billions of years old and we are using 170 years of temperature data (50 for sea water) and you can use that to make statements about the change.

I can't see that every house/business now has indoor heating and cooling that pushes heat into the surrounding area, with the number of people and houses we have these days that is clearly going to have an effect on the temperature. We also have lost our green land and trees that on a hot summers day are very good at making cool zones.
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Offline PlainName

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #191 on: August 05, 2023, 06:03:17 pm »
Quote
As a kid of the 80's I grew up with the fear of the Ozone layer being destroyed and we even had a TV show called Captain Planet and the Planeteers and that made a big thing about cleaning up the world. Yet it didn't do a thing to change stuff if the current press is to be believed.

Didn't the ban on CFCs fix that up? Can't recall any recent press stuff about this either way, so if you have a relevant link I'd be interested to see it.
 

Offline tszaboo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #192 on: August 05, 2023, 06:17:36 pm »
Absolutely, the scientific community and the medical community were threatened by the Govmint bureaucrats. Doctors had licenses to loose if they did not follow the party policy, professors would loose their jobs. 
So they just rolled over and put up with the idiocy. 
You could easily get censored on any medical blog for not agreeing with the party line, so no one knew that there were people who did not agree with it. Social media was biased against any dissent.   
If you believe in Govmint control and that it is good, you must also believe that dissent is either a traitorous action or a mental disease.  Welcome to totalitarianism.

I don't regard the Medical  community, especially the epidemiologists and virologists as "Scientists", as especially here in Germany they did neither use Scientific methods, as of part 1) of my description, nor did they use overall Risk Assessment methods as I mentioned about our A3 Sheet method.

In Germany, they filed a final report about the whole government "Expert" team consisting mainly of medical guys, and it was clearly stated, that this report could not decide, whether the measures like lock-down of the whole country was appropriate or not, or had any positive effect, due to the fact, that the medical team did not collect appropriate data material at all.

As Germany was not able to make automated data acquisition, they (Mrs. Merkel) simply locked our country down, when a  limit of 35 incidents (*) / 100k people was exceeded. This arbitrary limit was simply defined by the maximum manual capacity of our local health offices, which received the data by FAX only.
Germany is really not a country of good engineering any more.

Frank

(*) "incidents" meant reported number of  people which were supposed to be sick with C.
Officially, later, they of course argued with the limited Intense Medical Care capacity of the hospitals.
In a way, it's not possible to apply the scientific method when dealing with an unknown situation. We didn't have a large global pandemic for a while, the last one, Spanish flu maybe killed more people than WW2. So our politicians are not prepared to handle it, because they are not experts. So what is the reasonable thing to do? Stepping down and creating a party neutral cabinet with experts. Almost no politician said that they have no idea how to handle the situation while stepping down, and that's just criminal.
You can even look at the German government when they had a diversity hire as the Minister of Defense, who never served, while there is a war going on in Europe.
Instead important positions are filled up with ideologs and idiots.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #193 on: August 05, 2023, 06:43:43 pm »

In a way, it's not possible to apply the scientific method when dealing with an unknown situation. We didn't have a large global pandemic for a while, the last one, Spanish flu maybe killed more people than WW2. So our politicians are not prepared to handle it, because they are not experts. So what is the reasonable thing to do? Stepping down and creating a party neutral cabinet with experts. Almost no politician said that they have no idea how to handle the situation while stepping down, and that's just criminal.
You can even look at the German government when they had a diversity hire as the Minister of Defense, who never served, while there is a war going on in Europe.
Instead important positions are filled up with ideologs and idiots.

I fully disagree on the first part
"Scientists" are able to analyze existing data, and from that make good predictions for unknown cases and into the future.
As well they always do research on expected future scenarios, "what would be, if".
Those are the key features of a real scientist, I guess.

Especially in this case our Robert Koch Institute had a big data base of all virus epidemics, pandemics and the "seasonal" flu, probably covering over 100 years.
Those epidemiologist's for a long time already expected another pandemic event. Remember, that the Pig Flu about 15 years ago, Ebola, and also AIDS were already epidemic or pandemic diseases. So the medical guys should have been prepared a long time ago.. sure the politicians everywhere have absolutely no clue, neither in medical nor in climate / energy questions.

Another story: In late 2019, Physicists from Göttingen, Aerosol research, only they investigated theoretically on the transport mechanism of viruses under different circumstances like talking, singing, making music, and they made  the suiting experiments. They found out the distance of those ominous 1.5m, where the aerosol particles fall down by gravity, and they did practical research on the effectiveness of different kind of face masks. They also investigated on room particle filters for schools.

None of their results were taken over by those government experts, and after 3 years of blind flying, our gvt. was still not able to recognize anything useful, especially our infamous Prof. "Karlchen" Lauterbach, who was by chance my fellow student at RWTH Aachen at that early 1980ties.

Frank
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 07:01:08 pm by Dr. Frank »
 

Offline coppice

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #194 on: August 05, 2023, 06:44:01 pm »
Quote
As a kid of the 80's I grew up with the fear of the Ozone layer being destroyed and we even had a TV show called Captain Planet and the Planeteers and that made a big thing about cleaning up the world. Yet it didn't do a thing to change stuff if the current press is to be believed.
Didn't the ban on CFCs fix that up? Can't recall any recent press stuff about this either way, so if you have a relevant link I'd be interested to see it.
It would appear that changes to CFC usage have reversed the problem, and the ozone holes have been closing up.
 

Offline mendip_discovery

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #195 on: August 05, 2023, 06:46:52 pm »
Quote
As a kid of the 80's I grew up with the fear of the Ozone layer being destroyed and we even had a TV show called Captain Planet and the Planeteers and that made a big thing about cleaning up the world. Yet it didn't do a thing to change stuff if the current press is to be believed.

Didn't the ban on CFCs fix that up? Can't recall any recent press stuff about this either way, so if you have a relevant link I'd be interested to see it.

I remember reading a story about the hole in the ozone is repairing itself so has been reported but why celebrate a success when you carry on pushing the next panic.

 https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/rebuilding-ozone-layer-how-world-came-together-ultimate-repair-job
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Offline tszaboo

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #196 on: August 05, 2023, 07:29:47 pm »

In a way, it's not possible to apply the scientific method when dealing with an unknown situation. We didn't have a large global pandemic for a while, the last one, Spanish flu maybe killed more people than WW2. So our politicians are not prepared to handle it, because they are not experts. So what is the reasonable thing to do? Stepping down and creating a party neutral cabinet with experts. Almost no politician said that they have no idea how to handle the situation while stepping down, and that's just criminal.
You can even look at the German government when they had a diversity hire as the Minister of Defense, who never served, while there is a war going on in Europe.
Instead important positions are filled up with ideologs and idiots.

I fully disagree on the first part
"Scientists" are able to analyze existing data, and from that make good predictions for unknown cases and into the future.
As well they always do research on expected future scenarios, "what would be, if".
Those are the key features of a real scientist, I guess.

Especially in this case our Robert Koch Institute had a big data base of all virus epidemics, pandemics and the "seasonal" flu, probably covering over 100 years.
Those epidemiologist's for a long time already expected another pandemic event. Remember, that the Pig Flu about 15 years ago, Ebola, and also AIDS were already epidemic or pandemic diseases. So the medical guys should have been prepared a long time ago.. sure the politicians everywhere have absolutely no clue, neither in medical nor in climate / energy questions.

Another story: In late 2019, Physicists from Göttingen, Aerosol research, only they investigated theoretically on the transport mechanism of viruses under different circumstances like talking, singing, making music, and they made  the suiting experiments. They found out the distance of those ominous 1.5m, where the aerosol particles fall down by gravity, and they did practical research on the effectiveness of different kind of face masks. They also investigated on room particle filters for schools.

None of their results were taken over by those government experts, and after 3 years of blind flying, our gvt. was still not able to recognize anything useful, especially our infamous Prof. "Karlchen" Lauterbach, who was by chance my fellow student at RWTH Aachen at that early 1980ties.

Frank
OK, I don't disagree with you about that part. They could and they have made models. That is part of the scientific method. Let's look at what the question is:
Is the lock down, socially distance and closing down stores an effective method of containing the virus while not wrecking the economy completely?
We didn't go full circle on the scientific method. We didn't have control groups. After the data was gathered there was no interpretation, and often times people were forbid from publishing their results. There was no retest. Well, in a way there was, because the lockdown was more and more lifted after a while. In any case, IMHO the scientific method failed when it comes to the big questions about how to handle it. It triumphed in other areas, the fast development of MRNA is a testament to that.
It wasn't the failure of the biology, it was a breakdown of social sciences. The failure of that, we are seeing in so many of today's issues, where it provides no resolution to most of today's issues.
 

Offline Dr. Frank

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #197 on: August 05, 2023, 07:42:35 pm »

OK, I don't disagree with you about that part. They could and they have made models. That is part of the scientific method. Let's look at what the question is:
Is the lock down, socially distance and closing down stores an effective method of containing the virus while not wrecking the economy completely?
We didn't go full circle on the scientific method. We didn't have control groups. After the data was gathered there was no interpretation, and often times people were forbid from publishing their results. There was no retest. Well, in a way there was, because the lockdown was more and more lifted after a while. In any case, IMHO the scientific method failed when it comes to the big questions about how to handle it. It triumphed in other areas, the fast development of MRNA is a testament to that.
It wasn't the failure of the biology, it was a breakdown of social sciences. The failure of that, we are seeing in so many of today's issues, where it provides no resolution to most of today's issues.

You're correct, as well. But those scientific methods you correctly described, were simply not applied.
I also doubt, that these guys ever have heard of that stuff.
From sad personal experience, I regard medicine in most cases as a Trial-and-Error handcraft.

Therefore I liked the series "House, M.D. " so much. 
 

Offline Wallace Gasiewicz

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #198 on: August 05, 2023, 08:29:14 pm »
I regard Medicine as Applied Science, but differs  from Engineering in that almost everything in Medicine is still a Black Box. We still do not understand all the interconnections and are trying to analyze the box using only something like using a VNA to analyze input and output from an extremely complicated circuit. That is the best short analogy I can come up with now.Not to mention the fact that the schematics from the manufacturer are not to be found.Everyone is fond of using statistics to analyze the situation but they fail to realize that statistics are just an analysis of "chance".

Now, the recent COVID  illustrated the false predictions and wrong assumptions and orders that the Govmint put into place, there is no excuse for outright falsehoods being held up as the truth. Then there was and still is the persecution of those who disagree. This is not science, this is 
 "Do as you are told".

By the way I liked "House" also, I especially liked his kindly bedside manner and his equitable treatment of his colleagues..
« Last Edit: August 05, 2023, 08:31:09 pm by Wallace Gasiewicz »
 
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Online Bud

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Re: heartbroken that John Clauser seems to have joined climate change denial.
« Reply #199 on: August 05, 2023, 08:48:08 pm »
Yes yes, Ebola. Paid kids falling into mud and rolling in the mud in imaginary pain while their mothers watched a few meters away. Who leaked that, someone from Reuters i believe?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 


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