USA 3G sunset - swapping SIM could create headache

[Rick Law]

...
Have you guys all forgotten what the pre-iPhone days of mobile carriers were like, in particular in USA? ATT (the old one on TDMA), Sprint and Verizon used nearly-proprietary hardware. (And remember Nextel, which literally used an entire proprietary mobile network standard?) Cingular and T-Mo were already GSM but locked down everything. Every carrier loaded custom firmware onto their devices to plaster their proprietary BS apps everywhere, defacing even excellent hardware. (I had an otherwise lovely Sony-Ericsson phone that Cingular had stolen two useful buttons from, hard-mapping them to useless carrier apps instead of the useful functions those buttons normally had.)

Then Apple came along and convinced Cingular to agree to have zero control over the handset software and apps. I cannot overstate enough how much of a game changer this was. And then all the other carriers had to agree to the same thing because they wanted to sell the iPhone, too. The entire smartphone industry benefited immensely from Apple dedtroying the carriers’ stronghold on handset software. Apple is the company that turned the carriers into the “dumb pipes” they should be.

Our recollection is not the same, perhaps because regional/national differences.  I don't recall Apple being influential to the phone market at all in the early days.

At the time Cingular was Cingular (early 2000, Cingular not yet acquired by AT&T), I needed both T-Mobile and Cingular as my regular carrier.  I had coverage with T-Mobile at home (and no Cingular), and Cingular at work (but no T-Mobile).  I had T-Mobile cheap flip phone that was unlocked and can use Cingular and other alien SIMs.  It was also very simple to get Cingular phones unlocked to use T-Mobile and other alien SIM also.  So those phones were entirely carrier independent, I used them in the USA, Europe, and Asia.  The carrier has nothing to say about it and they had no control over it.  For a carrier branded phone, they can refuse to give you the unlock code, but you can always get a phone (like the Moto Razr) that is factory unlocked.

Then in 2004, I switch over to Treo 650.  I have factory-unlocked ones that swap SIMs (T-Mobile, Cingular, other alien SIMs) without distinction.  It just works.  I have unlocked Cingular-branded Treo 650 and they can use alien SIM without distinction.  I later "debranded" the Cingular Treo 650 to run pure Treo 650 firmware also without problem.  The only Cingular thing about them (after debranding) was just the different color scheme the phone have (Cingular ones are lighter grey and a Cingular label metallic color frame around the TFT screen).  Again, entirely carrier independent.  I even have an after market dual-SIM kit that allowed you to cut your two SIMs and fit it into the same SIM tray - but both SIMs are not active at the same time, you select which SIM to use with a Treo 650 App that came with the kit.

That was way before Apple even got into the phone market. Apple iPhone 1 was introduced in 2007.

I was addicted to debranding.  I was still using my Treo as my main phone, but I have my two Zenfone 2e (AT&T only) phones unlocked (not factory unlocked, but with unlock code) and debranded so they run ASUS software with nothing AT&T there.  They are like Asus Zenfone 2 (ZE500CL) but with less memory.  I ended up sticking with my Treo650 until carriers moved to sunset 2G/2.5G phones to 3G only.

So, carrier has no control with factory unlocked phones prior to Apple even got into the market.  They had no influence I can recall on how AT&T, T-Mobile, Cingular behaved back in 2000 to 2007 (prior to iPhone1) and yet unbranded phones are aplenty.  Unlocking is common, and debranding was a thing to do.


EDIT: Quote mark boundaries wrong, edited to show where quote started and ended

[rsjsouza]

...
Have you guys all forgotten what the pre-iPhone days of mobile carriers were like, in particular in USA? ATT (the old one on TDMA), Sprint and Verizon used nearly-proprietary hardware. (And remember Nextel, which literally used an entire proprietary mobile network standard?) Cingular and T-Mo were already GSM but locked down everything. Every carrier loaded custom firmware onto their devices to plaster their proprietary BS apps everywhere, defacing even excellent hardware. (I had an otherwise lovely Sony-Ericsson phone that Cingular had stolen two useful buttons from, hard-mapping them to useless carrier apps instead of the useful functions those buttons normally had.)

Then Apple came along and convinced Cingular to agree to have zero control over the handset software and apps. I cannot overstate enough how much of a game changer this was. And then all the other carriers had to agree to the same thing because they wanted to sell the iPhone, too. The entire smartphone industry benefited immensely from Apple dedtroying the carriers’ stronghold on handset software. Apple is the company that turned the carriers into the “dumb pipes” they should be.

Our recollection is not the same, perhaps because regional/national differences.  I don't recall Apple being influential to the phone market at all in the early days.

Being a heavy user of Palms and Treos and their very large software catalog downloadable directly from the internet, my recollection is identical as yours. Regarding phone locking, I also recall the unlocking was already quite ubiquitous in the early 2000s. The introduction of Apple perhaps influenced more dramatically the regular user due to the convenience of the app and music stores. Besides, their first product with the UI and the capacitive touchscreen was quite good. Despite this, I was still very fond of a keyboard and a former Graffitti heavy user, but these do not appeal to anyone these days.

[tooki]

...
Have you guys all forgotten what the pre-iPhone days of mobile carriers were like, in particular in USA? ATT (the old one on TDMA), Sprint and Verizon used nearly-proprietary hardware. (And remember Nextel, which literally used an entire proprietary mobile network standard?) Cingular and T-Mo were already GSM but locked down everything. Every carrier loaded custom firmware onto their devices to plaster their proprietary BS apps everywhere, defacing even excellent hardware. (I had an otherwise lovely Sony-Ericsson phone that Cingular had stolen two useful buttons from, hard-mapping them to useless carrier apps instead of the useful functions those buttons normally had.)

Then Apple came along and convinced Cingular to agree to have zero control over the handset software and apps. I cannot overstate enough how much of a game changer this was. And then all the other carriers had to agree to the same thing because they wanted to sell the iPhone, too. The entire smartphone industry benefited immensely from Apple dedtroying the carriers’ stronghold on handset software. Apple is the company that turned the carriers into the “dumb pipes” they should be.

Our recollection is not the same, perhaps because regional/national differences.  I don't recall Apple being influential to the phone market at all in the early days.

At the time Cingular was Cingular (early 2000, Cingular not yet acquired by AT&T), I needed both T-Mobile and Cingular as my regular carrier.  I had coverage with T-Mobile at home (and no Cingular), and Cingular at work (but no T-Mobile).  I had T-Mobile cheap flip phone that was unlocked and can use Cingular and other alien SIMs.  It was also very simple to get Cingular phones unlocked to use T-Mobile and other alien SIM also.  So those phones were entirely carrier independent, I used them in the USA, Europe, and Asia.  The carrier has nothing to say about it and they had no control over it.  For a carrier branded phone, they can refuse to give you the unlock code, but you can always get a phone (like the Moto Razr) that is factory unlocked.

Then in 2004, I switch over to Treo 650.  I have factory-unlocked ones that swap SIMs (T-Mobile, Cingular, other alien SIMs) without distinction.  It just works.  I have unlocked Cingular-branded Treo 650 and they can use alien SIM without distinction.  I later "debranded" the Cingular Treo 650 to run pure Treo 650 firmware also without problem.  The only Cingular thing about them (after debranding) was just the different color scheme the phone have (Cingular ones are lighter grey and a Cingular label metallic color frame around the TFT screen).  Again, entirely carrier independent.  I even have an after market dual-SIM kit that allowed you to cut your two SIMs and fit it into the same SIM tray - but both SIMs are not active at the same time, you select which SIM to use with a Treo 650 App that came with the kit.

That was way before Apple even got into the phone market. Apple iPhone 1 was introduced in 2007.

I was addicted to debranding.  I was still using my Treo as my main phone, but I have my two Zenfone 2e (AT&T only) phones unlocked (not factory unlocked, but with unlock code) and debranded so they run ASUS software with nothing AT&T there.  They are like Asus Zenfone 2 (ZE500CL) but with less memory.  I ended up sticking with my Treo650 until carriers moved to sunset 2G/2.5G phones to 3G only.

So, carrier has no control with factory unlocked phones prior to Apple even got into the market.  They had no influence I can recall on how AT&T, T-Mobile, Cingular behaved back in 2000 to 2007 (prior to iPhone1) and yet unbranded phones are aplenty.  Unlocking is common, and debranding was a thing to do.


EDIT: Quote mark boundaries wrong, edited to show where quote started and ended

The GSM carriers grudgingly allowed you to bring your own devices, but they didn’t really like it. Almost all customers bought a phone under contract, complete with carrier-spoiled firmware, and that was no accident.

Here’s what Wired had to say in 2008 about Apple’s influence: https://www.wired.com/2008/01/ff-iphone/

But as important as the iPhone has been to the fortunes of Apple and AT&T, its real impact is on the structure of the $11 billion-a-year US mobile phone industry. For decades, wireless carriers have treated manufacturers like serfs, using access to their networks as leverage to dictate what phones will get made, how much they will cost, and what features will be available on them. Handsets were viewed largely as cheap, disposable lures, massively subsidized to snare subscribers and lock them into using the carriers' proprietary services. But the iPhone upsets that balance of power. Carriers are learning that the right phone—even a pricey one—can win customers and bring in revenue. Now, in the pursuit of an Apple-like contract, every manufacturer is racing to create a phone that consumers will love, instead of one that the carriers approve of. "The iPhone is already changing the way carriers and manufacturers behave," says Michael Olson, a securities analyst at Piper Jaffray.

What's more, the Cingular team could see that the wireless business model had to change. The carriers had become accustomed to treating their networks as precious resources, and handsets as worthless commodities. This strategy had served them well. By subsidizing the purchase of cheap phones, carriers made it easier for new customers to sign up—and get roped into long-term contracts that ensured a reliable revenue stream. But wireless access was no longer a luxury; it had become a necessity. The greatest challenge facing the carriers wasn't finding brand-new consumers but stealing them from one another. Simply bribing customers with cheap handsets wasn't going to work.

[Rick Law]

We are mixing up the time frame we are discussing, so we are having disagreement here.

iPhone's 2007 introduction no doubt accelerated the mobile market and mobile standardization in the USA after it's introduction.  But in my view,  iPhone is the benefactor pre-existing inter-operability and standardization that was already ubiquitous and vibrant.

I personally think Europe in 1990/1991 adopted (and rolled out) the GSM standard was the real big game changer in cell phones standardization and interoperability.  That drove GSM to become the global standard dominating everywhere else except the USA.  The USA's remaining big non-GSM was Verizon's CDMA.  The rest of the non-GSM carriers pretty much became small niche players or joined the GSM bang wagon.

The other big factor was China.  The domination of GSM globally and China's entry into the market drove the consolidation and standardization as well.  Well before iPhone (2007), one can pick up an unlocked phone far cheaper than even carrier-branded phones, and both were made in China anyway.  The only interoperability issues was frequency bands, and the CDMA's relatively big isolated island that was Verizon.  The small niche players remained small.

Standardization is a good thing but has it's very bad side...  Now our choices are far more limited - Android, or iPhone.  Well, perhaps I should include KaiOS, but version 2.5 integrated Google Assist and Google Map.  So while they are not Android, they surely have became part-Android.

An imaginary conversation one afternoon:

Tom: Hey, Dick, this investment fund looks like a pyramid scheme.
Dick: Pyramid or not pyramid, I don't have the funds.  So no need to go there yet.
...Before Harry can talk, something in his pocket interjected...
Phone: Most well known pyramids are in Egypt, do you want to know more about Egypt?  I also know a lot of discount flights and FUN tours for Egypt.  If you want to go there, say "tour" or "flights".
Harry: Shut the f*** up, phone; or I will throw you out the freaking window again.
Phone: This is the ...(brief pause)... 5th time ...(brief pause)... you are acting irrationally and exceeded government guide lines.  Your ability to invoke payment will be suspended for ...(brief pause)...  3 days ...(brief pause)...

[tooki]

We are mixing up the time frame we are discussing, so we are having disagreement here.

iPhone's 2007 introduction no doubt accelerated the mobile market and mobile standardization in the USA after it's introduction.  But in my view,  iPhone is the benefactor pre-existing inter-operability and standardization that was already ubiquitous and vibrant.

I personally think Europe in 1990/1991 adopted (and rolled out) the GSM standard was the real big game changer in cell phones standardization and interoperability.  That drove GSM to become the global standard dominating everywhere else except the USA.  The USA's remaining big non-GSM was Verizon's CDMA.  The rest of the non-GSM carriers pretty much became small niche players or joined the GSM bang wagon.

The other big factor was China.  The domination of GSM globally and China's entry into the market drove the consolidation and standardization as well.  Well before iPhone (2007), one can pick up an unlocked phone far cheaper than even carrier-branded phones, and both were made in China anyway.  The only interoperability issues was frequency bands, and the CDMA's relatively big isolated island that was Verizon.  The small niche players remained small.

Standardization is a good thing but has it's very bad side...  Now our choices are far more limited - Android, or iPhone.  Well, perhaps I should include KaiOS, but version 2.5 integrated Google Assist and Google Map.  So while they are not Android, they surely have became part-Android.

An imaginary conversation one afternoon:

Tom: Hey, Dick, this investment fund looks like a pyramid scheme.
Dick: Pyramid or not pyramid, I don't have the funds.  So no need to go there yet.
...Before Harry can talk, something in his pocket interjected...
Phone: Most well known pyramids are in Egypt, do you want to know more about Egypt?  I also know a lot of discount flights and FUN tours for Egypt.  If you want to go there, say "tour" or "flights".
Harry: Shut the f*** up, phone; or I will throw you out the freaking window again.
Phone: This is the ...(brief pause)... 5th time ...(brief pause)... you are acting irrationally and exceeded government guide lines.  Your ability to invoke payment will be suspended for ...(brief pause)...  3 days ...(brief pause)...

Standardization of the network standards wasn’t the issue to which I was referring. That was a done deal (except for Nextel) long before. (VZW and Spring on CDMA, ATT and T-Mo on GSM. The 90s in USA were littered with many non-GSM phone standards, such as “old” ATT’s TDMA and Nextel’s proprietary thing.)

Before the iPhone, the carriers sold nearly all handsets, and dictated to the handset makers what their phones could and couldn’t do. (Again: almost nobody brought their own devices.)

Apple broke this model by giving the networks no control over the device software. I told you what happened. I told you when. I’ve provided independent proof of this. Why are you still confused about what I am (and what I am not!) saying?! 

[Rick Law]

...
Standardization of the network standards wasn’t the issue to which I was referring. That was a done deal (except for Nextel) long before. (VZW and Spring on CDMA, ATT and T-Mo on GSM. The 90s in USA were littered with many non-GSM phone standards, such as “old” ATT’s TDMA and Nextel’s proprietary thing.)

Before the iPhone, the carriers sold nearly all handsets, and dictated to the handset makers what their phones could and couldn’t do. (Again: almost nobody brought their own devices.)

Apple broke this model by giving the networks no control over the device software. I told you what happened. I told you when. I’ve provided independent proof of this. Why are you still confused about what I am (and what I am not!) saying?! 

Our recollections really differ.  But, not a difference worth more ink.  I'll just accept that we recollect differently.

[bson]

I personally think Europe in 1990/1991 adopted (and rolled out) the GSM standard was the real big game changer in cell phones standardization and interoperability.  That drove GSM to become the global standard dominating everywhere else except the USA.  The USA's remaining big non-GSM was Verizon's CDMA.  The rest of the non-GSM carriers pretty much became small niche players or joined the GSM bang wagon.

That's not nearly an accurate history. 

Metro-PCS in the U.S. was a service to target millions of users in urban areas.  TDMA couldn't scale to these proportions; European GSM evolved from local standards like NMT and was designed for a very small set of high-paying customers to have mobile phone access, usually with a car phone.  TDMA was focused on broad geographic coverage, not a large number of customers.  CDMA was adopted in the U.S. and Asia exactly because of the different markets: cheap service to millions of urban users rather than an expensive luxury for politicians and CEOs to always be available. By 3G is was clear TDMA was a dead end, and CDMA was adopted for GSM.  It was also clear the U.S. and Asian market prediction was bulls-eye spot on, and the old GSM model couldn't meet it.  But instead of simply adopting existing CDMA systems, a completely new system was invented to prevent U.S. and Asian equipment vendors from dominating the European market.  At that time state phone companies were often still closely tied into manufacturing.  So an incompatible standard, neither technical better or worse, was invented with entirely new patent coverage to guarantee European telcos had a chance to remain in the game.  Americans and Asians played along too, since that was their only avenue to enter the European market.  European telcos would have been too far behind without a fresh start, and the market would quickly have been dominated by Americans and Asians.  It's not CDMA that was incompatible with 3GPP and 4G, it was GSM that was the gratuitously incompatible system.

Operator lock-in has little to nothing to do with network compatibility.  That's just subscriber access control, which operates at a higher layer.