Author Topic: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?  (Read 5901 times)

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Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« on: October 10, 2019, 08:23:58 pm »
Hi all, great forum here - I came to the forum from watching a few of the YouTube videos...

I just recently setup a recording studio in my basement - things are just fine with balanced connections from microphones and other gear, but I'm getting a huge amount of noise through my guitars and amps (things work fine in other locations - multiple amps and guitars are all affected). The studio is on it's own subpanel and the outlets for my gear are the only things on that circuit. I seem to be getting pronounced hum at around 180Hz and this ticking or clicking up between 4k-8k. I've eliminated all compact fluorescent bulbs and dimmers from the house and have had local electricians check my panel and the power company has checked my feed. The power company heard the noise on the ground rod outside at one point, but they haven't come up with any sort of solution or recommendation yet.

What I'm trying to find out is who can I call to come in and try to properly identify the root cause and offer suggestions or remediations? I suppose it would need to be someone who can properly measure/analyze my power feed and potentially identify sources of RFI. Short of moving, I'm out of ideas, myself... :)

Thanks in advance - appreciate the guidance!
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2019, 10:24:18 pm »
Yup, saw that - read it all, pulled my hair out...

I just to find the right kind of contractor to come in, diagnose and address the issue now...
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2019, 10:29:13 pm »
Can be a lot of things, such as ground loop.

Is it a 60hz buzzing sound by chance?  Could be a dimmer, pretty much anywhere in the house.  Those make a lot of electrical noise. 

You could maybe try putting everything on an isolation transformer to see if it helps.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2019, 10:56:37 pm »
Simplify and eliminate -- this is how you track it down.

Your first step is to switch off *all* the circuit breakers in the house, leaving on just the ones you need to listen to the noise.  It's likely a local source and those are easier to find, so look there first.  If possible, run your recording console from an unplugged UPS and kill the power to your house completely.  If the interference goes away, then start switching things on, one at a time.  If it doesn't, start looking elsewhere

Does this noise only appear when you have the guitar connected?  Is this via a mic'd amplifier, or via a direct (or effects box) connection?

We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2019, 10:58:08 pm »
Could be a dimmer, pretty much anywhere in the house.
Disconnect the rest of the house but your studio from mains feed, check noise. Then you will know - source of the noise is in the house or not. It could be insulation failure or neutral/ground wiring mishap/violation. Did power company / electrician checked for grounding/earthing leakage (current)? If not - then they did not do their job properly, especially if told that you have audio equipment hum (?) noise complaint.
 

Offline Cyberdragon

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2019, 11:10:10 pm »
It could be in the equipment itself. Ground loops can pick up any sort of noise including switching power supplies and RF from digital equipment.
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Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2019, 11:50:22 pm »
Can be a lot of things, such as ground loop.

Is it a 60hz buzzing sound by chance?  Could be a dimmer, pretty much anywhere in the house.  Those make a lot of electrical noise. 

You could maybe try putting everything on an isolation transformer to see if it helps.
It seems to be higher than 60 - that sound file I put has a large hump at 180, so it's a harmonic. I've removed all the dimmers from the house. The chattering noise is the thing that gets me the most. Yeah, ISO Transformer is my next thing to try

Simplify and eliminate -- this is how you track it down.

Your first step is to switch off *all* the circuit breakers in the house, leaving on just the ones you need to listen to the noise.  It's likely a local source and those are easier to find, so look there first.  If possible, run your recording console from an unplugged UPS and kill the power to your house completely.  If the interference goes away, then start switching things on, one at a time.  If it doesn't, start looking elsewhere

Does this noise only appear when you have the guitar connected?  Is this via a mic'd amplifier, or via a direct (or effects box) connection?

I've done this once already, and it didn't eliminate the issue. Yeah, it's only when the guitars are plugged in and a little bit of gain is added (not crazy amounts). It happens with single coil or (to  lesser extent) humbuckers. All of my balanced gear is dead quiet.

 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2019, 01:55:14 am »
Oh totally random, but if the noise is only really showing up on the recording itself, consider getting one of these:

https://www.amazon.ca/Focusrite-Scarlett-Audio-Interface-Tools/dp/B07QR73T66

We had issues at my church with the light dimmers (powering 1000w overhead stage lights) and this completely eliminated it.   I think because it's USB, by nature it will also have isolation so that helps.  I find the overall quality of the recordings is so much better than just recording straight to the aux plug.


I also second the idea of trying to run on a UPS just to rule out electrical noise, though you will want to make sure it's pure sine.  Those tend to be really expensive so another option is to get a pure sine inverter and a battery.  Heck it might be a good investment anyway if you want to setup a power backup solution for the equipment.

But yeah it's pretty much a process of elimination to track this down.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2019, 02:03:17 am »
Yeah, it's only when the guitars are plugged in and a little bit of gain is added (not crazy amounts). It happens with single coil or (to  lesser extent) humbuckers. All of my balanced gear is dead quiet.

How are you getting the guitar signal into the recording gear?  Are you mic'ing the amp speaker?  Is this acoustic noise coming out of the amp?  That is a much different problem than what you get from ground loops.  Since the humbucker pickups don't give you as much noise, is this a magnetic field problem?  If you re-orient the guitar (spin around) does the noise change?

Or do you have a line-level electrical output from your amp (XLR connector or phone jack) that goes to the recording gear?  Again, two different types of problem.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2019, 02:04:49 am »
I also second the idea of trying to run on a UPS just to rule out electrical noise, though you will want to make sure it's pure sine.

Even if it's not a sinewave output, as long as the noise changes he will have a very valuable clue.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2019, 02:25:03 am »
I also second the idea of trying to run on a UPS just to rule out electrical noise, though you will want to make sure it's pure sine.

Even if it's not a sinewave output, as long as the noise changes he will have a very valuable clue.

Yeah that is true.  Might still be a useful test and he may already have one handy.
 

Online BrianHG

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2019, 04:26:57 am »
Can be a lot of things, such as ground loop.

Is it a 60hz buzzing sound by chance?  Could be a dimmer, pretty much anywhere in the house.  Those make a lot of electrical noise. 

You could maybe try putting everything on an isolation transformer to see if it helps.
It seems to be higher than 60 - that sound file I put has a large hump at 180, so it's a harmonic. I've removed all the dimmers from the house. The chattering noise is the thing that gets me the most. Yeah, ISO Transformer is my next thing to try

Simplify and eliminate -- this is how you track it down.
I analyzed that .mp3, it's 60 Hz on the dot...
There are other harmonics due to repeated voltage spikes at repeated intervals along the 60hz sine wave.


1) How old is this amp?
2) Is it vacuum tube?
3) Could it need internal mains filter DC cap replacement?
4) Could the amp just be poorly designed being very sensitive to any disturbance on the AC mains?
5) Does the Amp do the same thing at another location?
6) Has that Amp ever been serviced by an amateur without proper experience with the sensitivities of guitar amps?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2019, 04:33:48 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2019, 07:17:31 pm »
Can be a lot of things, such as ground loop.

Is it a 60hz buzzing sound by chance?  Could be a dimmer, pretty much anywhere in the house.  Those make a lot of electrical noise. 

You could maybe try putting everything on an isolation transformer to see if it helps.
It seems to be higher than 60 - that sound file I put has a large hump at 180, so it's a harmonic. I've removed all the dimmers from the house. The chattering noise is the thing that gets me the most. Yeah, ISO Transformer is my next thing to try

Simplify and eliminate -- this is how you track it down.
I analyzed that .mp3, it's 60 Hz on the dot...
There are other harmonics due to repeated voltage spikes at repeated intervals along the 60hz sine wave.
[ Attachment Invalid Or Does Not Exist ]

1) How old is this amp?
2) Is it vacuum tube?
3) Could it need internal mains filter DC cap replacement?
4) Could the amp just be poorly designed being very sensitive to any disturbance on the AC mains?
5) Does the Amp do the same thing at another location?
6) Has that Amp ever been serviced by an amateur without proper experience with the sensitivities of guitar amps?


Brian, good info - thanks! To answer your questions:
1. One amp is 10 years old (Suhr Badger 30), the other is 51 (Fender Princeton Reverb) :) . I can also get the noise with a line6 Helix, so its not necessarily due to tubes and electrolytics.
2. See above
3. I had the Princeton serviced two years ago, the Suhr has not been serviced.
4. I don't think so
5. No. Even in another room (upstairs in my home)
6. No, I only bring them to top folks in the area.

I'm going to go through a full debug session on Sunday - turning off all other breakers, running the amps from battery, etc so I can try to narrow it all down... I'll post back with what I see.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2019, 08:08:48 pm »
I've had to troubleshoot oddball noise and hum in two recording studios.
It's very difficult because finding the interference source or type of noise, figuring out where on the electromagnetic spectrum it is and how it behaves, is not easy.

You may find the interference disappears on weekends and evenings, this is due to pollution from industrial electricity users. Although some welding shops run night shifts, I found some days and times the interference disappeared.
Listening to your recording, I hear annoying crackles that are periodic, so likely from some industrial process.

You can use a guitar to confirm. Rotating the body 90 degrees and you can at least see what axis the interference is coming in on. Buried power cables, or the airborn power conductors on utility poles are fabulous transmitting antennas.

Another technique is using a Walkman (with no cassette inside), the tape head will pick up the same as a guitar pickup as far as low frequency B-fields. That will tell you right away if the noise source is outside your house. A cheapola AM radio also can be used to find an interference source.
It's good to first know the (electrical) noise floor of the studio, before blaming the equipment and grounding etc.
One studio has arc welding or smelter interference, so the guitar players are oriented 90 degrees and sessions are done on weekends.
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2019, 08:18:22 pm »
This is in a residential area - no businesses for about two miles, but I hear you - it’s definitely been extremely difficult to trace the source. I’ve tried the am radio thing, as well, and so many things seem to radiate interference, but I haven’t been able to find that ticking source! That’s what I’m trying to find out - is there a type of service outside of a standard general electrician shop who would be better to bring in? I’ve read about ham radio operators using sensitive equipment to sniff out sources of noise, but I just don’t know who to reach out to.
 

Offline floobydust

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2019, 09:45:23 pm »
Residential areas do get industrial interference - the substation (big) distribution power transformer can connect to many areas. You have to think a little different, light rail transit, kilns in schools, hospital heaters can be close and affect local power.

The interference can come in through the airwaves and/or conducted from mains wiring or the distribution system electrical ground. One studio went all out and installed a large isolation transformer with new isolated ground, which got rid of all noise from the grid. But it doesn't help with the RF.
That ticking source, pulsing a few times a second... reminds me of a high power heater that curses the airwaves around my lab. It's about a mile away. That interference gets in everything, all my audio gear picks it up. It changes sound with the heater load.

I would ask around who knows experienced techs in the music industry, and find a local HAM club as they will know best how to sniff it out. You will likely get lost between ID'ing the source and shielding the recieving end.
 
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Online BrianHG

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2019, 10:57:06 pm »

Brian, good info - thanks! To answer your questions:
1. One amp is 10 years old (Suhr Badger 30), the other is 51 (Fender Princeton Reverb) :) . I can also get the noise with a line6 Helix, so its not necessarily due to tubes and electrolytics.

6. No, I only bring them to top folks in the area.

I'm going to go through a full debug session on Sunday - turning off all other breakers, running the amps from battery, etc so I can try to narrow it all down... I'll post back with what I see.

1. Same interference on 3 different amps from 3 different eras, all 3 with not input?

a)  If the hum coming out of the Amp's speaker where you placed a microphone in front?
b)  Can you hear the hum directly?
c)  If you took the amp to a different location, like a different house another part of the city, will they still hum?
d)  Do you have high tension power lines within 2 blocks of your house, or, a transformer power sub station within 6 blocks of your house?  (If the answer to this question is yes, you are most likely out of luck, sorry.)
e)  Do you have access to borrow a (I hate to say this) a high end power line filter and isolation filter like those used by some adiophiles?  (These weight quite a bit as they have 2 large transformers in them with huge caps)  I'm not talking about those cheap power filter bars or boxes.

6. g) Are you saying all of your amps have been serviced?


NOTE: A deeper look at your .mp3 file revealed perfectly timed diode switching noise in the waveform.  This may be due to light dimmers always on at the same brightness, computer/electronics power supplies, LED/CFL lamps, or, on your power grid, even street lights, or someone has a huge device which internally operates electronically with DC at the full AC mains voltage.
« Last Edit: October 12, 2019, 12:16:23 am by BrianHG »
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2022, 07:02:40 pm »
Brian - wow, I can't believe it's been 3 years since I started this thread!In the time since, I had put the studio on hold and just dealt with the noise or recorded elsewhere - I'm ready to dive back into it now and I really do appreciate your input and suggestions.

To answer your questions from the last post:

1. The interference is the same but, it's only when a guitar is connected. With the amp just turned on, there is some hum, but nothing like what was present in that recording or in the new videos I've posted below;
2. The loud buzzing and clicking only happens when a guitar with passive pickups is connected and the volume on the guitar turned up.
3. In a music store about 2.5 miles from my house, everything is quiet as it should be.
4. Power in my development is underground. but is fed from above ground wires about .2 mi from my house. There're above ground transformer boxes on my block or around the corner.
5. I've tried a furman power conditioner and also a Tripp-lite medical transformer, and neither has produced a change.

Now, this weekend, I shot a number of videos showing the issue and also a few things I've tried - left field things 0 to suppress the noise. You may find these interesting:

First vid - demo of the issue with three different guitars (it also happens with different amps, just didn't want to move them to this room):

https://youtu.be/da0JncZyENM

Then, a weird update!

https://youtu.be/sJuumHCLyik

Then, a series I took this evening working through a few things:

01 - Guitar Grounding

https://youtu.be/D3Uv5RvINU8

02 - Belly Armor

https://youtu.be/GdfG4vXMc60

03 - Further Tests

https://youtu.be/vSpddcZIZW8

Lastly, there is this video from another musicians on YouTube who had roughly the same exact issue who was able to get his local power company to solve his problem:

https://youtu.be/t6E0O8UtObU
 

Offline fourfathom

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2022, 07:21:02 pm »
2. The loud buzzing and clicking only happens when a guitar with passive pickups is connected and the volume on the guitar turned up.

I previously suggested that you spin the guitar around and see if the noise changes.  Have you tried that?  This sounds like magnetic fields hitting the guitar pickup, rather than conducted electrical noise.  Of course, wiring can radiate magnetic fields, so it could still be ultimately dimmer (etc.) related.  But you might be picking up magnetic fields from something like an upstairs refrigerator compressor motor.

Since you have already shut off all house electricity save for your studio (?), it's probably not your refrigerator compressor, but at this point I would be looking at magnetic fields.
We'll search out every place a sick, twisted, solitary misfit might run to! -- I'll start with Radio Shack.
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #20 on: November 20, 2022, 07:25:38 pm »
Yes, it does change when I rotate it but as you can see in the video, it‘s actually the worst when it’s flat on the floor.

I just reached out to my power company again to request that they assist with locating the source. I think it’s outside of my house, as well.
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #21 on: November 20, 2022, 07:40:50 pm »
It seems like that "Bellyarmor" blanket does not act as a shield for the pickup, but rather that it grounds the guitar. (You uncover the pickup in the video and the hum is still gone. Only when the blanket loses contact with the last guitar string, the noise returns instantly.)

What is your grounding scheme there? Is the amp in a grounded outlet? Does it ground the guitar via the 1/4" plug?

It looks to me like one of those connections might be missing. Since you mention that you have seen the problem with multiple guitars and amps, I would check the cables (mains to the amp and audio cable to the guitar) and the power outlet first.
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #22 on: November 20, 2022, 07:44:20 pm »
These videos were just filmed in a newly remodeled (and inspected) room - all outlets are properly grounded, the amp has a three prong cord, etc..
 

Offline DaveNJTopic starter

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #23 on: November 20, 2022, 07:46:07 pm »
Also, I’ve used multiple cables which all check out with my meter - sleeves have proper continuity…
 

Online ebastler

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Re: Home recording studio - noise with guitar amps - who to call?
« Reply #24 on: November 20, 2022, 07:49:20 pm »
Have you tried grounding the guitar via some other means than the blanket? Just a wire from any of the (to-be-)grounded parts of the guitar to ground at the amp?
 


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