EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: staze on July 31, 2013, 06:00:52 pm
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All,
I know a lot has been made of the Atten/WEP 858D, and just recently I found the Tenma 21-11425, which appears to be the same unit (nice thing, there's a US Seller that's only $3 more than China). But guessing similar build quality (e.g. take it apart and confirm grounding, etc).
Circuit Specialists also have a couple that are around the $100 range, and are diaphragm pump based, but they all come with a vacuum pickup tool (which I can't see using).
At this moment, my goal is to reflow a Playstation 3 BGA, but I'd assume I'd use the station more. My inclination would be the cheaper unit, since it's A. cheaper, and B. smaller (less space on my cramped "bench"). But that thread about the WEP/Atten/Tenma/whatever is a bit dated, so I'm curious if anyone has some recent comments about the unit.
Thanks!
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For sucsessfully reflow a Playstation 3 BGA, recomend a preheater. Without its a hit and miss operation. :)
I have reflowd round 40 PS3 the last 6 months, and before i got a preheater and heated the whole card, i had a retur of defective machine within 3 months near 75%!
After i used a preheater, i have had one! that was a chip fault.
I use a preheater from Circuit Specialists, BK 7050 BlackJack large preheating station with adjustable arm
http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/review/product/list/id/245/ (http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/review/product/list/id/245/)
and a BK 6000 BlackJack SolderWerks deluxe rework soldering station
http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/bk-6000-blackjack-solderwerks-deluxe-rework-soldering-station (http://www.circuitspecialists.eu/bk-6000-blackjack-solderwerks-deluxe-rework-soldering-station)
but dont only my word for it.. ;)
From: http://psx-scene.com/forums/content/complete-guide-reflowing-ps3-1574/ (http://psx-scene.com/forums/content/complete-guide-reflowing-ps3-1574/)
Once I read "heat gun" I knew that this was going to be a bad guide. First, the Cell isn't involved in the YLOD to begin with (you get the "green light of death" when the Cell has a cold solder joint), so there's no need to even go near it. Second, to properly reflow any console (or laptop motherboard, etc) you need to warm up the entire board, not just the chip that needs reflowing. Third, Arctic Silver 5 is actually a bad choice for the thermal paste that goes on top of the heat spreaders (though it's perfectly fine for going between the die of the GPU and the heat spreader), a grease-like paste is a better option. I personally use the cheap Dynex stuff from Best Buy. I repair game consoles for a living, and out of about 55 successful repairs in the past 4 moths, only 2 have ever come back - also keep in mind that YLOD does not always mean there's something wrong with the GPU (though usually it is). It's nice if this worked for him on a console or two (just like you may get your Xbox up and running just by throwing some pennies under the board...another horrible idea), but this is by no means a proper way to reflow a PS3.
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For sucsessfully reflow a Playstation 3 BGA, recomend a preheater. Without its a hit and miss operation. :)
Ugh, no more gear! =)
I've watched a fair number of videos, seems like you can do pretty well just making sure to heat the area pretty well, and use a no-clean flux. Damn RoHS lead-free solder.
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For sucsessfully reflow a Playstation 3 BGA, recomend a preheater. Without its a hit and miss operation. :)
I have reflowd round 40 PS3 the last 6 months, and before i got a preheater and heated the whole card, i had a retur of defective machine within 3 months near 75%!
After i used a preheater, i have had one! that was a chip fault.
Would an oven work for this? I'm not planning to do it for a living, I just have one that someone said "here, take this".
Mind you, the local Goodwill has stacks of RROD Xboxes (Xboxen?) that would be fixable, but electronics is a hobby... repair is fun, but I don't plan to make a career of it. =)
The CS unit I was looking at was the normal blackjack. I mean, I know if I REALLY wanted to do it right, I'd reball the thing, but that's a whole new can of fish.
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Yes, it may, i have seen videos of rebuilt ovens that may do the trick. google a little bit..
But dont trust ALL the videos of how to fix PS3 and Xboxes on Youtube... there are som realy far out teories out there.. :)
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I must also mention, the preheater is also in use in my workshop to reheat leftover pizza... 8)
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I must also mention, the preheater is also in use in my workshop to reheat leftover pizza... 8)
Most excellent idea sir! Now I've gotta get a preheater too! Nothing like freshly re-warmed leftover pizza...
Typed using Hacker's Keyboard for Android
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I must also mention, the preheater is also in use in my workshop to reheat leftover pizza... 8)
Most excellent idea sir! Now I've gotta get a preheater too! Nothing like freshly re-warmed leftover pizza...
Typed using Hacker's Keyboard for Android
See, and I prefer cold pizza... so not sold!
What temp does a pre-heater go to? Seems like an kitchen oven might work as well...
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I must also mention, the preheater is also in use in my workshop to reheat leftover pizza... 8)
Most excellent idea sir! Now I've gotta get a preheater too! Nothing like freshly re-warmed leftover pizza...
Typed using Hacker's Keyboard for Android
See, and I prefer cold pizza... so not sold!
What temp does a pre-heater go to? Seems like an kitchen oven might work as well...
50 to 400 C...
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50 to 400 C...
Okay. What would you normally preheat a PS3 board to?
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170 c, but very important to know, you got to have temp. sensors onto the board. I have made a curve/profile that do the up and down reg for the diffrent boards. Pluss i do have a Fluke tempmeter to check with. I
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170 c, but very important to know, you got to have temp. sensors onto the board. I have made a curve/profile that do the up and down reg for the diffrent boards. Pluss i do have a Fluke tempmeter to check with. I
Okay, makes sense. And I'd assume you'd want the whole board to get to that temp and hold for a bit (just so the internal layers are up at that temp?
Anyway, back to topic. You'd say Blackjack. Anyone have recent opinions on the WEP/Atten/Tenma 858?
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Mine is only a few months old - no problems, it works as advertised. It hasn't gotten heavy use since I've taken a slight detour learning verilog and spent less time at the bench than normal. But it is extremely handy when you want to reflow a small area of a board with minimal collateral effects. Probably terrible for reflowing a full board (unless it is REALLY small), and I wouldn't try it for large bga for sure... it just isn't terribly precise when it comes to temperature control and heating isn't very even when applied to large surfaces. An oven would be far better and safer.
There's tons of DIY oven designs out there too - price wouldn't be much different from the heat pencil.
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Mine is only a few months old - no problems, it works as advertised. It hasn't gotten heavy use since I've taken a slight detour learning verilog and spent less time at the bench than normal. But it is extremely handy when you want to reflow a small area of a board with minimal collateral effects. Probably terrible for reflowing a full board (unless it is REALLY small), and I wouldn't try it for large bga for sure... it just isn't terribly precise when it comes to temperature control and heating isn't very even when applied to large surfaces. An oven would be far better and safer.
There's tons of DIY oven designs out there too - price wouldn't be much different from the heat pencil.
MacAttack,
Which model/brand did you get? What seller, if you don't mind me asking.
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WEP 858 from Sainsmart. Shipped from China I think it was, and took a hell of a beating on the way here (the shipping box was beat to hell - I'm not sure how it didn't fully disintegrate). But the gear wasn't damaged at all.
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That's a heck of a deal on their site! Only $51 with free shipping to the states!
Did you have to do any of the safety modifications detailed on the forums?
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I guess another question, how ESD safe is a hot air station like this? Would you need to worry about it much with ESD sensitive stuff?
For reference, right now I have a simple two temp hot air gun (like you use for stripping paint) that I was planning to use on the PS3 BGA... but thought maybe something like the Atten/WEP/Tenma would be better.
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ESD is important to everything when working with such equpment. Also everything else, like matt on the tabel, and other tools. The rework stations from Circuit Specialists is very good and the one i bought was ok when i checked it out.
But also beware of fumes from the prosesses... Use a fan with filter. Dont breath that smoke.. I
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Dont breath that smoke.. I
Will it blend though? =)
Okay, that all makes sense. How'd you check for ESD? I'd assume if the nozzle is grounded, the potential for ESD would be pretty low.
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Yes, just make a OHm, resistance measurment between the noozle and the earth conection of the mains plugg..
Remember, that if it got a detachable cabel, measure the cabel also. There are many strange cabels from the far east, they are orded, made and deliverd the cheapest way.. :)
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This one goes to Darwin award nominations but I've successfully (70%) reflowed boards in a normal gas oven. Place the board on some stands, aluminium foil under, place the multimeter temperature probe inside the oven. Cut about 2-3mm of solder [wire] and place it near the board so you can see when it melts.
RoHS has a higher melting point but if you cut the flame just when it starts to melt the thermal inertia of the oven will take the temperature a few degrees higher. After that, open the door a bit (to drop a few degrees) and then close it and let it cool. Just follow the solder reflow curve and it should work.
If it does not work it will destroy your boards. Some connectors or other stuff might be manually soldered or in another process so they will melt. This is not meant for 'production' or for reselling the board after, just to squeeze one more year out of the gadget.
Same thing with the heat gun, isolate the area with aluminium foil, come with the gun down from a distance to heat the stuff gradually, always keeping an eye on the temperature. Having the blob of solder melting nearby also helps a lot.
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I have tried that, problem is that the oven did not have a uniform temperature,.
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Just got my WEP 858D 100v from sainsmart. Not bad shipping time (about a week) to the west coast. sometimes china is fast, sometimes it's slow as hell.
took apart, only issue is it's switched neutral, so I'll have to fix that (though not a HUGE issue)...
re-flowing the PS3 is a bit down the road still... might still look at some type of board heater, or improvise something. Thanks for all the input!
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Regarding reflowing the PS3 main board, figuring I had little to lose, I reflowed mine twice using nothing more than a hot air gun from the hardware store. Worked just fine. Of course, I kept it perfect flat (as measured with a level) and stuck to the areas identified by the "Gliksy Guide", https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E175C4BFFD4F77F (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E175C4BFFD4F77F) . Right after the second failure (about a year after the first one), after I repaired it I just used it to migrate to a new unit. I corresponded with him, and he indicated the need for some flux during the reflow, and has apparently updated his video on that point.
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yeah... I think this is one of the ones I saw, and was planning to just use a heat gun, but figured I might as well use a closer to correct tool... especially since it's only $50, and I can use it for other stuff.
Now I just need to wait for the replacement switch from digikey.
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Replacement switched worked great, and the unit is back up and running with the hot switched.
For future reference, incase someone else has this happen, the Cherry equivalent is the CH755-ND. Fits the cutout perfectly, and feels SO much better than the stock switch.
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I've got a WEP 876D. Serving me well, I've made a little video where I use it to solder tiny packages: https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RO1K43e6VzM#at=83 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RO1K43e6VzM#at=83)
The build quality is great as far as I can tell. Cracked it open a while back and everything is bolted down strong, no complaints