How can governments ensure all companies get equal access to China?

[ocset]

Hi,
This talks  of UK, but just sub in [your country]  instead as it applies to all countries…

With regard to electronics, I used to work   for a company where I could pick any  electronics component  from  farnell etc……then give this component to my boss…then he could speak  to his Chinese employee based in China….and we would get the component from China at a quarter  (or less) of the price, and usually better quality too.

Eg stuff like TO220 heatsinks, ESD floor tiles,  ferrite core halves and bobbins for  transformers, Thermal chambers, Thermal cameras,  1Kw “variable mains” Bench power supplies …almost anything.

We could even source Chinese factories to do destruction testing of our power supplies  at a really cheap price……eg they would run the SMPS at [max power/min vin] for 1 hour at a time at incrementally increased temperatures until it blew up. Then send us the blown PSU’s so we could inspect and see what  failed.

We could also get dirt cheap conducted EMC scans done on offline power supplies….(and we would  always send them two PSUs….one that we already knew the frequency trace of so we could check up on them…and the  Chinese  EMC labs never got it wrong.)

I notice that other  electronics companies in the UK do not have access to these things. These UK companies are worse off for this. Hence their profitability is less and thus they end up  paying  less tax to the UK government.
How can the UK government ensure that all UK electronics companies have equal access to these Chinese “wonder“ factories and facilities?

In Germany, I don’t mind betting that  the German government intervenes to ensure fairness , and ensures that all German companies share their Chinese  “wonder” contacts….equally, the German government probably also has a dept set up to ensure  any  “bad” Chinese companies get highlighted to all German companies (if there is such thing as a bad Chinese supplier)

[Siwastaja]

It's completely up to the individuals who know how to communicate, and who have built personal connections to the Chinese companies.

Anybody has "the access", I know this very well because I have personally sourced parts and communicated about custom manufacturing and engineering services. The Chinese are great to work with. You can start anytime through Alibaba.

Governments have no part in this, and hopefully never will.

[MK14]

You seem to be obsessively posting the same/similar/related threads, again and again.
SMPSs made in UK, and China.

Is there some kind of non-resettable fuse, I can blow. Which will stop you from doing this ?

[coppice]

So, you want companies to share the most sensitive information any business has? I'm sure that will work out wonderfully. If you wanted a government body to develop its own connections with great resources around the world, and help local businesses access them, that exists in many countries. It exists in the UK. Its just not that active, as the UK has given up on electronics, despite some Department of Trade and Industry exhibitions which try to indicate the contrary.

[coppice]

You seem to be obsessively posting the same/similar/related threads, again and again.
SMPSs made in UK, and China.

Is there some kind of non-resettable fuse, I can blow. Which will stop you from doing this ?

For a switched mode guy he seems to have a real problem switching modes. 

[georges80]

Part troll, part broken record.

I saw the title of the thread and guessed it had to be treez and surprise surprise it was

cheers,
george.

[ocset]

Anybody has "the access", I know this very well because I have personally sourced parts and communicated about custom manufacturing and engineering services. The Chinese are great to work with. You can start anytime through Alibaba.

Thanks, but I dont believe so...i was speaking to an ex major company SMPS chief engineer, now turned SMPS design consultant...he was on to me to find out where my company  sourced the high quality transformer ferrites from, because he was unable to find out himself.

Another company bought a Flir TG165 from  websearching alibaba etc..but when i was at the mentioned company, we got a Great quality Dong Guan Xintai HT-04 for less than £100....much cheaper and better...due to our Chinese contact.

[dmills]

If you don't have the contacts there are loads of consultants (of widely differing quality) who do.

Loads of 'facilitators', often out of Taiwan who can help you navigate the culture and (if you get a good one) even handle things like factory visits and ongoing QA inspections for you.

If you do have the contacts (sounds like your last lot did) you can of course cut out the cost of the middle man, but make sure you know what you are doing, China can go very wrong if you do it wrong.
 
Fact is that actually for volumes less then massive, China is actually NOT automatically the goto for electronics assembly that you might expect, for a thousand units a year or so, we found a UK company that could do it almost as cheaply and were just down the road, made delivering the occasional beating easier.

The bare PCBs were still coming from China, but the P&P was all local, and by scheduling orders a year out, with bonuses for having them available if we needed extras they get to run our jobs during quiet periods and they stock hold for us.

[coppice]

If you don't have the contacts there are loads of consultants (of widely differing quality) who do.

Loads of 'facilitators', often out of Taiwan who can help you navigate the culture and (if you get a good one) even handle things like factory visits and ongoing QA inspections for you.

If you do have the contacts (sounds like your last lot did) you can of course cut out the cost of the middle man, but make sure you know what you are doing, China can go very wrong if you do it wrong.

Facilitators tend to be a lazy bunch, who will connect you to the first people who come to mind, regardless of suitability or cost. Contacts tend to be people you have enough experience with to trust. Both cost, so you always have a middle man, unless you have a local presence of your own. However, most of the time I'd take contacts over facilitators.

[Simon]

I think treez borders on being a conspiracy theorist complaining about things that are not. there is actually a reasonably active Uk sector where prices allow. If you want to know why we don't make big volumes here the answer is obvious and you should contact your MP about proposing bills to to put import tariffs on the countries you don't like. In the Uk there are plenty of electronics designers and assemblers, in fact the board assembly market is thriving whilst also very competitive, I don't know for example how newbury electronics is in business with the much cheaper prices even from other Uk assemblers. There are several PCB manufacturers around the country, not all make in the Uk and some do a mix. Fact is if your making small volume or specialist then it's a UK job, if you want large volumes of cheap shite of course go to china, but then i have seen some really shocking companies in the Uk that just don't know how to do business and think that just spouting "made in the UK" and putting union jacks all over the place is a good courterbalance for their incompetence.

The best board assembler i ever found was PML in Northampton but sadly they were dragged out of business by their parent companies group going bust. But they were top notch and unlike other more expensive companies that just replied with "build to print" to any issue they worked with us on the issue even when it was our fault.

[dmills]

I had good luck with both Bela (for shorter run things), and Microtec (for bigger runs), but there is clearly way too much free money out there because some folks who really should have gone bust have not.

ALS (Layout house) and ASK (Quick turn prototype specialists) also get a worthy mention.

[coppice]

I think treez borders on being a conspiracy theorist complaining about things that are not. there is actually a reasonably active Uk sector where prices allow. If you want to know why we don't make big volumes here the answer is obvious and you should contact your MP about proposing bills to to put import tariffs on the countries you don't like.

If you think tariffs are your best route to growth you are already in a death spiral.

[Simon]

I think treez borders on being a conspiracy theorist complaining about things that are not. there is actually a reasonably active Uk sector where prices allow. If you want to know why we don't make big volumes here the answer is obvious and you should contact your MP about proposing bills to to put import tariffs on the countries you don't like.

If you think tariffs are your best route to growth you are already in a death spiral.

I am no financial expert but I understand that china keep their currency intentionally devalued to favor exports. As a country that is largely self sufficient it can do that and make trade with it cheaper. How do you "fight" that? When the UK voted to leave the Eu and the GBP plumeted in value many companues reported an increase in sales because they were exporting out of the UK and their prices suddenly got cheaper. I raised my prices as it meant that my imports from Dave went up in price but my export price outside of the Uk remained the same. If i were selling Uk manufactured goods i would have been laughing.

[SiliconWizard]

I am no financial expert but I understand that china keep their currency intentionally devalued to favor exports. As a country that is largely self sufficient it can do that and make trade with it cheaper. How do you "fight" that?

That is right. Currencies play a big role. It's not a simple matter though, as the balance of trade influences the currencies exchange rates, and conversely.

But any country that can freely "play" with the value of its currency is advantaged as far as the BOT is concerned. Countries in the euro zone have it tougher for that reason (even though it can bring other benefits).

[coppice]

I am no financial expert but I understand that china keep their currency intentionally devalued to favor exports.

During the Asian financial crash of 1997 China was greatly praised by the west for taking a huge hit by keeping the Yuan stable, while most other Asian currencies sank. It was a big hit. Lots of people lost their jobs, and many never returned. It was the start of clothing production looking for cheaper labour, like Bangladeshi children. Since then western pundits have alternatively complained about China artificially keeping the Yuan high or low. Mostly what they have done is keep it relatively stable, because stability is what a heavy exporting country needs. Not rock steady against the US dollar, like the HK dollar is locked, but fairly stable. Financial people are endlessly manipulating even the largest countries. Its hard to tell the full picture.

[Simon]

basically if a country is way cheaper than you how do you discourage your citizens buying things made in the cheaper country?

[coppice]

I am no financial expert but I understand that china keep their currency intentionally devalued to favor exports. As a country that is largely self sufficient it can do that and make trade with it cheaper. How do you "fight" that?

That is right. Currencies play a big role. It's not a simple matter though, as the balance of trade influences the currencies exchange rates, and conversely.

But any country that can freely "play" with the value of its currency is advantaged as far as the BOT is concerned. Countries in the euro zone have it tougher for that reason (even though it can bring other benefits).

It should be obvious that the Euro was implemented by people who wanted to end the EU. This was obvious from the time the idea was first presented as a short term goal. Interestingly, the first phase of the EU breaking up came from one of the country sane enough to keep its own currency. Far in the future the Euro might have been a good idea. However, implementing it long before the European economies had harmonised sufficiently was clearly intended to bring about the stresses we have seen since 2008, and destabilise the EU.

[coppice]

basically if a country is way cheaper than you how do you discourage your citizens buying things made in the cheaper country?

Do you have a clear idea why you would want to? Do you think is a short term band aid, or a proper long term fix? As countries trade more currency anomalies usually sort themselves out in one of two ways. Either rampant inflation adjusts the currency, or more formal processes do. China has seen years of steady inflation gradually bringing local conditions more in line with western ones, as the wealth of its middle class has grown. You have to be something like the US, and hold the reserve currency, to maintain long term manipulation.

[floobydust]

basically if a country is way cheaper than you how do you discourage your citizens buying things made in the cheaper country?

The "race to the bottom" for product price and the "race to the top" for maximum profit is not working.
Intangible costs are not factored into products and manufacturing. This is the huge problem the world faces.

Devaluing your currency, providing subsidies, sacrificing the environment, worker's health and pension benefits, safety etc. - having a lower standard of living keeps labour costs lower.
Dumping products to kill off competition, espionage to kill off entire industries, theft of IP - it's business, it's war.

People will buy the lowest price, and the feedback loop whereby local businesses and industry and jobs die off as a consequence, is too long for governments to realize they should have acted.

[MK14]

In Germany, I don’t mind betting that  the German government intervenes to ensure fairness , and ensures that all German companies share their Chinese  “wonder” contacts….equally, the German government probably also has a dept set up to ensure  any  “bad” Chinese companies get highlighted to all German companies (if there is such thing as a bad Chinese supplier)

Do you have any actual evidence/links to back this "theory" up ?

My understanding is, that Germans tend to be well educated, very hard working, well organised and as a result, tend to be more successful at things (such as engineering), than some other countries.

If you feel so bad about things, why don't you move to Germany or China ?
Then work in (or start up a business that does) SMPS, and LEDS/Street-lights. Your "friend" might join you as well.

Or in the possible business vacuum, that the virus may be (sadly) creating for you. Start up a nice business in the UK. From your previous threads (and this one), I'm sure true justice will occur.
I.e. If you are as business savvy as you think, you will succeed, but if not, you may fail.

[Simon]

basically if a country is way cheaper than you how do you discourage your citizens buying things made in the cheaper country?

The "race to the bottom" for product price and the "race to the top" for maximum profit is not working.
Intangible costs are not factored into products and manufacturing. This is the huge problem the world faces.

Devaluing your currency, providing subsidies, sacrificing the environment, worker's health and pension benefits, safety etc. - having a lower standard of living keeps labour costs lower.
Dumping products to kill off competition, espionage to kill off entire industries, theft of IP - it's business, it's war.

People will buy the lowest price, and the feedback loop whereby local businesses and industry and jobs die off as a consequence, is too long for governments to realize they should have acted.

The problem is that people will buy short term and cheap. This costs jobs in your local economy and means that your environmental regulations do not actually cover where much of the damage may be happening. Usually a government controls spending behavior by taxing imports. This makes the race to the bottom not a way to get sales because your sales are blocked by consumer behavior.

[floobydust]

Lowest cost products flowing into a country, who would complain and stop that?
It's today's business model - import cheap stuff from a developing nation, markup the price and resell. This is what I see the majority of businesses doing.
Developing products, technology - no investor has patience for that, I want my cash profit now.

The CCP have a long-term plan for economic prosperity that is superior to anything in the West. Our governments are impotent at planning and executing anything long term for the economy.

Expecting the consumer to "vote with their dollar" and spend much more to buy local, seems to be only working at farmer's markets because the benefit is instant in flavour, freshness. It is not a corrective mechanism by any means.

[Simon]

when all you do is import you have nothing to export. Again I am no financial whiz but surely you can't just keep handing your money over out of the country for tat that goes in the bin. unless there is a balance of import/export you just become a financial desert with no expertise and a workforce that is not capable of doing anything more than driving pallet trucks and using tills.

[nctnico]

when all you do is import you have nothing to export. Again I am no financial whiz but surely you can't just keep handing your money over out of the country for tat that goes in the bin. unless there is a balance of import/export you just become a financial desert with no expertise and a workforce that is not capable of doing anything more than driving pallet trucks and using tills.

The US has been doing just that for decades. But still, why is anyone entertaining yet another one of treez's tantrums?

[floobydust]

when all you do is import you have nothing to export. Again I am no financial whiz but surely you can't just keep handing your money over out of the country for tat that goes in the bin. unless there is a balance of import/export you just become a financial desert with no expertise and a workforce that is not capable of doing anything more than driving pallet trucks and using tills.

Yes it ultimately destroys the customer- the country importing piles of goods gets reduced to having nothing to generate revenue.
Canada and Australia have fallen to mostly whoring out our natural resources. That's our exports - coal, crude oil, natural gas, wheat and grain, iron and copper ores etc. So some money will always be coming in, but our industries are in large decay.

[...] But still, why is anyone entertaining yet another one of treez's tantrums?

The wonky thread is relevant because we all sit back and expect our quality of life to continue despite the obvious fire.
Engineering is higher up the food chain and without local design and manufacturing, there's not much to do.