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| How car telematics helped catch a murderer |
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| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: langwadt on February 24, 2020, 07:29:54 pm ---come home after week or two of vacation and car is gone, sorry data was deleted a few days ago ... --- End quote --- We can go round and round coming up with more exotic situations to justify the situation. Maybe someone takes a sabbatical and comes back three months later. Maybe someone goes to jail and comes back after 3 years to find his car stolen. It's a matter of diminishing returns and I'm not sure keeping data for two months is really justified outside of a murder inquiry. Not to mention this whole things smells like the typical IoT shitfest. You need to disable the tracking when transporting the car by ferry or train to prevent it from thinking it's being stolen. When you buy a car you need the previous owner to release the car or he can track and even control the car from a distance. "Unbound" cars can be bound by people who have temporary access to the cars like valets have. There is zero mention how long the data is stored or who has access to this data which probably means they store it indefinitely. https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/07/27/jaguar_land_rover_connected_car_privacy/ |
| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: Halcyon on February 24, 2020, 07:41:11 pm ---If you think this is a new thing, this has been happening for years now. Many new cars have factory-installed SIM cards (or eSIMs) which allow vehicle manufacturers to view vehicle data including in some cases the vehicle location (BMW is another of several examples). Many have agreements with law enforcement and security agencies (however I can't name which ones or the nature of the agreements). Even cars without cellular connectivity will record a huge cache of information on an in-built flash storage device or hard disk drive installed somewhere in the vehicle (usually not anywhere the user can easily get to it without pulling the entire dash apart). There is a specialist market for vehicle forensics products out there and they are owned by some of the biggest players in the field. I've worked on several "jobs for clients" which involve recovering data from vehicles. There is a very popular brand of vehicle, for example, that provides a treasure trove of information, including frequent GPS locations, harsh braking/acceleration events, loss of traction or when the driver disables ESC etc... all of that is logged and in some cases go as far back as when the vehicle is first delivered to the dealer. It's an interesting field of cyber security, that's for sure. --- End quote --- It seems the world is still quite oblivious. It doesn't really help that despite all this connectivity car security really hasn't been a field until recently. When some well-known researchers found worrying and basic flaws in the software just a few years ago most brands didn't even have responsible disclosure contacts. Only publishing about the issues got a response. It's worrying car makers are fitting vehicles with all kinds of gizmos well outside of their area of expertise. |
| Domagoj T:
--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 24, 2020, 07:46:54 pm --- --- Quote from: langwadt on February 24, 2020, 07:29:54 pm ---come home after week or two of vacation and car is gone, sorry data was deleted a few days ago ... --- End quote --- We can go round and round coming up with more exotic situations to justify the situation. Maybe someone takes a sabbatical and comes back three months later. Maybe someone goes to jail and comes back after 3 years to find his car stolen. It's a matter of diminishing returns and I'm not sure keeping data for two months is really justified outside of a murder inquiry. ... probably means they store it indefinitely. --- End quote --- Regarding diminishing returns, sure, why not indefinitely? That kind of data volume is dirt cheap to store. One instance where it proves useful to have the data justifies years worth of storage for thousands of individuals. Regarding justification of keeping the data for months inside or outside of murder investigation, the thing is that you don't know if data you have is relevant for murder investigation, and the law enforcement could make the relevant connection months or years after the murder took place. Apparently this feature is not actively advertised and obviously not well known, so public isn't in an uproar over privacy concerns, but law enforcement knows about this and uses the system. The potential benefit for keeping the data is evident, so we could only discuss if it's justified to infringe on privacy of thousands in order to protect a handful of individuals, and perhaps if there is some nefarious usage of that data. I don't know answers to these issues, but I sure would be happy if data collected on me eventually turned out to be instrumental in righting a wrong done to me. That's why I'm not as much concerned about data collection itself, only about potential misuse of it. I am fully aware that I can not expect to be invisible to the Big Brother, but I can expect that there is a system to keep Big Brother in check to prevent it from abusing the data, and making sure that storage is secure. Sure you can argue that if there is data to be used, it's going to be misused, but that is not the problem of data collecting itself. |
| tom66:
--- Quote from: Mr. Scram on February 24, 2020, 05:37:23 pm ---Great they caught a murderer, but why on Earth would you want your whereabouts and even when you open the trunk shared with the Landrover mothership? Apparently the location and events of every vehicle fitted with this technology are logged, not just that of vehicles of interest. --- End quote --- This is just what modern cars do, they all have apps now. My car lets me pre-heat remotely, and start charging and other things like that. I have no doubt that it logs the data, though given the reliability of the app in general usage (it constantly tells me doors are open when they're not, etc.) I would REALLY hope it wouldn't be used for a criminal prosecution. |
| Mr. Scram:
--- Quote from: Domagoj T on February 24, 2020, 09:26:19 pm ---Regarding diminishing returns, sure, why not indefinitely? That kind of data volume is dirt cheap to store. One instance where it proves useful to have the data justifies years worth of storage for thousands of individuals. Regarding justification of keeping the data for months inside or outside of murder investigation, the thing is that you don't know if data you have is relevant for murder investigation, and the law enforcement could make the relevant connection months or years after the murder took place. Apparently this feature is not actively advertised and obviously not well known, so public isn't in an uproar over privacy concerns, but law enforcement knows about this and uses the system. The potential benefit for keeping the data is evident, so we could only discuss if it's justified to infringe on privacy of thousands in order to protect a handful of individuals, and perhaps if there is some nefarious usage of that data. I don't know answers to these issues, but I sure would be happy if data collected on me eventually turned out to be instrumental in righting a wrong done to me. That's why I'm not as much concerned about data collection itself, only about potential misuse of it. I am fully aware that I can not expect to be invisible to the Big Brother, but I can expect that there is a system to keep Big Brother in check to prevent it from abusing the data, and making sure that storage is secure. Sure you can argue that if there is data to be used, it's going to be misused, but that is not the problem of data collecting itself. --- End quote --- Your reasoning could be used to store almost anything indefinitely. If there's just a chance some of the data may be useful one day it could and should be stored. That's obviously flawed reasoning. Infringing on the privacy of thousands of innocents to maybe catch one perpetrator essentially means eliminating any and all protections the system provides. It opens the door for endless and gratuitous data collection. Stating the inevitable abuse isn't intrinsicly linked to data collection also seems naive as that very much seems to be the case. The best way of preventing abuse is to not have the data exist. Why you don't want endless amounts of data on you exist is essentially the same reason you don't want to talk to the police whether you're innocent or not. Lawyers and investigators will tell you this. You're much more likely to be ensnared in something innocuous they think feel they can hold against you than to exonerate you. |
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