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How many people code in C these days, and if so, why?

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Picuino:
For me, the discipline of programmer matters, and is more important than language itself.

In C you can do things like this flight simulator:

--- Code: (c) ---#include                                     <math.h>
#include                                   <sys/time.h>
#include                                   <X11/Xlib.h>
#include                                  <X11/keysym.h>
                                          double L ,o ,P
                                         ,_=dt,T,Z,D=1,d,
                                         s[999],E,h= 8,I,
                                         J,K,w[999],M,m,O
                                        ,n[999],j=33e-3,i=
                                        1E3,r,t, u,v ,W,S=
                                        74.5,l=221,X=7.26,
                                        a,B,A=32.2,c, F,H;
                                        int N,q, C, y,p,U;
                                       Window z; char f[52]
                                    ; GC k; main(){ Display*e=
 XOpenDisplay( 0); z=RootWindow(e,0); for (XSetForeground(e,k=XCreateGC (e,z,0,0),BlackPixel(e,0))
; scanf("%lf%lf%lf",y +n,w+y, y+s)+1; y ++); XSelectInput(e,z= XCreateSimpleWindow(e,z,0,0,400,400,
0,0,WhitePixel(e,0) ),KeyPressMask); for(XMapWindow(e,z); ; T=sin(O)){ struct timeval G={ 0,dt*1e6}
; K= cos(j); N=1e4; M+= H*_; Z=D*K; F+=_*P; r=E*K; W=cos( O); m=K*W; H=K*T; O+=D*_*F/ K+d/K*E*_; B=
sin(j); a=B*T*D-E*W; XClearWindow(e,z); t=T*E+ D*B*W; j+=d*_*D-_*F*E; P=W*E*B-T*D; for (o+=(I=D*W+E
*T*B,E*d/K *B+v+B/K*F*D)*_; p<y; ){ T=p[s]+i; E=c-p[w]; D=n[p]-L; K=D*m-B*T-H*E; if(p [n]+w[ p]+p[s
]== 0|K <fabs(W=T*r-I*E +D*P) |fabs(D=t *D+Z *T-a *E)> K)N=1e4; else{ q=W/K *4E2+2e2; C= 2E2+4e2/ K
 *D; N-1E4&& XDrawLine(e ,z,k,N ,U,q,C); N=q; U=C; } ++p; } L+=_* (X*t +P*M+m*l); T=X*X+ l*l+M *M;
  XDrawString(e,z,k ,20,380,f,17); D=v/l*15; i+=(B *l-M*r -X*Z)*_; for(; XPending(e); u *=CS!=N){
                                   XEvent z; XNextEvent(e ,&z);
                                       ++*((N=XLookupKeysym
                                         (&z.xkey,0))-IT?
                                         N-LT? UP-N?& E:&
                                         J:& u: &h); --*(
                                         DN -N? N-DT ?N==
                                         RT?&u: & W:&h:&J
                                          ); } m=15*F/l;
                                          c+=(I=M/ l,l*H
                                          +I*M+a*X)*_; H
                                          =A*r+v*X-F*l+(
                                          E=.1+X*4.9/l,t
                                          =T*m/32-I*T/24
                                           )/S; K=F*M+(
                                           h* 1e4/l-(T+
                                           E*5*T*E)/3e2
                                           )/S-X*d-B*A;
                                           a=2.63 /l*d;
                                           X+=( d*l-T/S
                                            *(.19*E +a
                                            *.64+J/1e3
                                            )-M* v +A*
                                            Z)*_; l +=
                                            K *_; W=d;
                                            sprintf(f,
                                            "%5d  %3d"
                                            "%7d",p =l
                                           /1.7,(C=9E3+
                              O*57.3)%0550,(int)i); d+=T*(.45-14/l*
                             X-a*130-J* .14)*_/125e2+F*_*v; P=(T*(47
                             *I-m* 52+E*94 *D-t*.38+u*.21*E) /1e2+W*
                             179*v)/2312; select(p=0,0,0,0,&G); v-=(
                              W*F-T*(.63*m-I*.086+m*E*19-D*25-.11*u
                               )/107e2)*_; D=cos(o); E=sin(o); } }
--- End code ---
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest#Flight_simulator

Very beautiful and compact but unintelligible. An example of flexibility of C language and its ability to adapt to all kinds of rules, even ones that should never be followed.

SiliconWizard:

--- Quote from: Picuino on May 24, 2020, 04:25:58 pm ---For me, the discipline of programmer matters, and is more important than language itself.

In C you can do things like this flight simulator:

--- Code: (c) ---#include                                     <math.h>
#include                                   <sys/time.h>
#include                                   <X11/Xlib.h>
#include                                  <X11/keysym.h>
                                          double L ,o ,P
                                         ,_=dt,T,Z,D=1,d,
                                         s[999],E,h= 8,I,
                                         J,K,w[999],M,m,O
                                        ,n[999],j=33e-3,i=
                                        1E3,r,t, u,v ,W,S=
                                        74.5,l=221,X=7.26,
                                        a,B,A=32.2,c, F,H;
                                        int N,q, C, y,p,U;
                                       Window z; char f[52]
                                    ; GC k; main(){ Display*e=
 XOpenDisplay( 0); z=RootWindow(e,0); for (XSetForeground(e,k=XCreateGC (e,z,0,0),BlackPixel(e,0))
; scanf("%lf%lf%lf",y +n,w+y, y+s)+1; y ++); XSelectInput(e,z= XCreateSimpleWindow(e,z,0,0,400,400,
0,0,WhitePixel(e,0) ),KeyPressMask); for(XMapWindow(e,z); ; T=sin(O)){ struct timeval G={ 0,dt*1e6}
; K= cos(j); N=1e4; M+= H*_; Z=D*K; F+=_*P; r=E*K; W=cos( O); m=K*W; H=K*T; O+=D*_*F/ K+d/K*E*_; B=
sin(j); a=B*T*D-E*W; XClearWindow(e,z); t=T*E+ D*B*W; j+=d*_*D-_*F*E; P=W*E*B-T*D; for (o+=(I=D*W+E
*T*B,E*d/K *B+v+B/K*F*D)*_; p<y; ){ T=p[s]+i; E=c-p[w]; D=n[p]-L; K=D*m-B*T-H*E; if(p [n]+w[ p]+p[s
]== 0|K <fabs(W=T*r-I*E +D*P) |fabs(D=t *D+Z *T-a *E)> K)N=1e4; else{ q=W/K *4E2+2e2; C= 2E2+4e2/ K
 *D; N-1E4&& XDrawLine(e ,z,k,N ,U,q,C); N=q; U=C; } ++p; } L+=_* (X*t +P*M+m*l); T=X*X+ l*l+M *M;
  XDrawString(e,z,k ,20,380,f,17); D=v/l*15; i+=(B *l-M*r -X*Z)*_; for(; XPending(e); u *=CS!=N){
                                   XEvent z; XNextEvent(e ,&z);
                                       ++*((N=XLookupKeysym
                                         (&z.xkey,0))-IT?
                                         N-LT? UP-N?& E:&
                                         J:& u: &h); --*(
                                         DN -N? N-DT ?N==
                                         RT?&u: & W:&h:&J
                                          ); } m=15*F/l;
                                          c+=(I=M/ l,l*H
                                          +I*M+a*X)*_; H
                                          =A*r+v*X-F*l+(
                                          E=.1+X*4.9/l,t
                                          =T*m/32-I*T/24
                                           )/S; K=F*M+(
                                           h* 1e4/l-(T+
                                           E*5*T*E)/3e2
                                           )/S-X*d-B*A;
                                           a=2.63 /l*d;
                                           X+=( d*l-T/S
                                            *(.19*E +a
                                            *.64+J/1e3
                                            )-M* v +A*
                                            Z)*_; l +=
                                            K *_; W=d;
                                            sprintf(f,
                                            "%5d  %3d"
                                            "%7d",p =l
                                           /1.7,(C=9E3+
                              O*57.3)%0550,(int)i); d+=T*(.45-14/l*
                             X-a*130-J* .14)*_/125e2+F*_*v; P=(T*(47
                             *I-m* 52+E*94 *D-t*.38+u*.21*E) /1e2+W*
                             179*v)/2312; select(p=0,0,0,0,&G); v-=(
                              W*F-T*(.63*m-I*.086+m*E*19-D*25-.11*u
                               )/107e2)*_; D=cos(o); E=sin(o); } }
--- End code ---
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest#Flight_simulator[/url]

Very beautiful and compact but unintelligible. An example of flexibility of C language and its ability to adapt to all kinds of rules, even ones that should never be followed.

--- End quote ---


Beautiful if you like ASCII art, but otherwise, meh.
The above is typical of IOCCC, but not per se typical of C. You could write something similar in C++, and in a handful of other languages, as (from what I've quickly read) it's mostly an exercise in formatting code, using non-helpful identifiers and "optimized" expressions. Some IOCCC code sources make heavy use of weird macros, which is even more unreadable, but even that is mostly doable in any language supporting macros. Even with clever templates I guess you could write pretty weird-looking stuff.

Any language not enforcing any specific formatting of code or naming conventions could pretty much lead to this kind of code.

You could say that Python (even if I for one don't like the concept of meaningful whitespaces) makes weird formatting of code almost impossible. So, it's probably harder to obfuscate Python code, at least this way.

Wolfgang:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 24, 2020, 05:53:45 pm ---
--- Quote from: Picuino on May 24, 2020, 04:25:58 pm ---For me, the discipline of programmer matters, and is more important than language itself.

In C you can do things like this flight simulator:

--- Code: (c) ---#include                                     <math.h>
#include                                   <sys/time.h>
#include                                   <X11/Xlib.h>
#include                                  <X11/keysym.h>
                                          double L ,o ,P
                                         ,_=dt,T,Z,D=1,d,
                                         s[999],E,h= 8,I,
                                         J,K,w[999],M,m,O
                                        ,n[999],j=33e-3,i=
                                        1E3,r,t, u,v ,W,S=
                                        74.5,l=221,X=7.26,
                                        a,B,A=32.2,c, F,H;
                                        int N,q, C, y,p,U;
                                       Window z; char f[52]
                                    ; GC k; main(){ Display*e=
 XOpenDisplay( 0); z=RootWindow(e,0); for (XSetForeground(e,k=XCreateGC (e,z,0,0),BlackPixel(e,0))
; scanf("%lf%lf%lf",y +n,w+y, y+s)+1; y ++); XSelectInput(e,z= XCreateSimpleWindow(e,z,0,0,400,400,
0,0,WhitePixel(e,0) ),KeyPressMask); for(XMapWindow(e,z); ; T=sin(O)){ struct timeval G={ 0,dt*1e6}
; K= cos(j); N=1e4; M+= H*_; Z=D*K; F+=_*P; r=E*K; W=cos( O); m=K*W; H=K*T; O+=D*_*F/ K+d/K*E*_; B=
sin(j); a=B*T*D-E*W; XClearWindow(e,z); t=T*E+ D*B*W; j+=d*_*D-_*F*E; P=W*E*B-T*D; for (o+=(I=D*W+E
*T*B,E*d/K *B+v+B/K*F*D)*_; p<y; ){ T=p[s]+i; E=c-p[w]; D=n[p]-L; K=D*m-B*T-H*E; if(p [n]+w[ p]+p[s
]== 0|K <fabs(W=T*r-I*E +D*P) |fabs(D=t *D+Z *T-a *E)> K)N=1e4; else{ q=W/K *4E2+2e2; C= 2E2+4e2/ K
 *D; N-1E4&& XDrawLine(e ,z,k,N ,U,q,C); N=q; U=C; } ++p; } L+=_* (X*t +P*M+m*l); T=X*X+ l*l+M *M;
  XDrawString(e,z,k ,20,380,f,17); D=v/l*15; i+=(B *l-M*r -X*Z)*_; for(; XPending(e); u *=CS!=N){
                                   XEvent z; XNextEvent(e ,&z);
                                       ++*((N=XLookupKeysym
                                         (&z.xkey,0))-IT?
                                         N-LT? UP-N?& E:&
                                         J:& u: &h); --*(
                                         DN -N? N-DT ?N==
                                         RT?&u: & W:&h:&J
                                          ); } m=15*F/l;
                                          c+=(I=M/ l,l*H
                                          +I*M+a*X)*_; H
                                          =A*r+v*X-F*l+(
                                          E=.1+X*4.9/l,t
                                          =T*m/32-I*T/24
                                           )/S; K=F*M+(
                                           h* 1e4/l-(T+
                                           E*5*T*E)/3e2
                                           )/S-X*d-B*A;
                                           a=2.63 /l*d;
                                           X+=( d*l-T/S
                                            *(.19*E +a
                                            *.64+J/1e3
                                            )-M* v +A*
                                            Z)*_; l +=
                                            K *_; W=d;
                                            sprintf(f,
                                            "%5d  %3d"
                                            "%7d",p =l
                                           /1.7,(C=9E3+
                              O*57.3)%0550,(int)i); d+=T*(.45-14/l*
                             X-a*130-J* .14)*_/125e2+F*_*v; P=(T*(47
                             *I-m* 52+E*94 *D-t*.38+u*.21*E) /1e2+W*
                             179*v)/2312; select(p=0,0,0,0,&G); v-=(
                              W*F-T*(.63*m-I*.086+m*E*19-D*25-.11*u
                               )/107e2)*_; D=cos(o); E=sin(o); } }
--- End code ---

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_Obfuscated_C_Code_Contest#Flight_simulator[/url]

Very beautiful and compact but unintelligible. An example of flexibility of C language and its ability to adapt to all kinds of rules, even ones that should never be followed.

--- End quote ---


Beautiful if you like ASCII art, but otherwise, meh.
The above is typical of IOCCC, but not per se typical of C. You could write something similar in C++, and in a handful of other languages, as (from what I've quickly read) it's mostly an exercise in formatting code, using non-helpful identifiers and "optimized" expressions. Some IOCCC code sources make heavy use of weird macros, which is even more unreadable, but even that is mostly doable in any language supporting macros. Even with clever templates I guess you could write pretty weird-looking stuff.

Any language not enforcing any specific formatting of code or naming conventions could pretty much lead to this kind of code.

You could say that Python (even if I for one don't like the concept of meaningful whitespaces) makes weird formatting of code almost impossible. So, it's probably harder to obfuscate Python code, at least this way.

--- End quote ---


I call this style of programming a Koan ( japanese lyrics). Nice to watch but ultimately futile and an elegant waste of time.
BTW, the unsurpassed master language of all Koans is good old IBM APL.

Picuino:
You can also obfuscate Python if you want:

https://wiki.c2.com/?ObfuscatedPython

--- Code: ---  print ''.join('%(pre)s%(num)s %(bot)s on the wall, %(nul)s %(bot)s,\n%(tak)s\n' % (lambda c,b:
  {'pre':['','%s %s on the wall.\n\n' % (c,b)][abs(cmp(c,'Ninety-nine'))],
 'num':c, 'nul':c.lower(), 'bot':b,
 'tak':['Go to the store and buy some more... Ninety-nine %s.' % b,'Take one down, pass it around,'][abs(cmp(x,0))]
  })((lambda x,o: [(['Twenty','Thirty','Forty','Fifty',
  'Sixty','Seventy','Eighty','Ninety'][x/10-2]+'-'+o.lower()).replace('-no more',''), o][int(x<20)])(x, ['No more','One','Two',
  'Three','Four','Five','Six','Seven','Eight',
  'Nine','Ten','Eleven','Twelve','Thirteen','Fourteen',
  'Fifteen','Sixteen','Seventeen','Eighteen','Nineteen'][[x,x%10][int(x>=20)]]),'bottle%s of beer' % ['','s'][abs(cmp(x,1))])
  for x in xrange(99,-1,-1))
--- End code ---

This means that language by itself cannot prevent the programmer from doing outrageous actions, nor can it avoid the programmer from being very clean and systematic.

Programmers make clean, standards-based programs, not languages.

You can make good C or C ++ programs, it depends on the rules you follow. And you can make bad and poorly maintainable programs in both languages. It depends on the team of programmers and the rules.

Berni:

--- Quote from: SiliconWizard on May 24, 2020, 03:33:50 pm ---
--- Quote from: Wolfgang on May 24, 2020, 02:57:01 pm ---I you exclude all C++ goodies (inheritance, STL, constructors and destructors, ...) the question is why you should use it then on a small platform (e.g., Arduino) at all. Just to write classes and methods instead of structs and functions is then more like syntactic sugar.

--- End quote ---

I agree with this.
Some people seem to like the syntactic sugar though.

I usually use a naming convention with a prefix, so it's really a matter of sugar indeed.

For instance:

--- Code: ---void GPIO_Set(void)
{...}

GPIO A;

GPIO_Set(A);
(or: GPIO_Set(&A), depending on how GPIO is defined exactly.)

--- End code ---

in C++ you'd have something like:

--- Code: ---GPIO::Set()
{...}

GPIO A;

A.Set();

--- End code ---

Cute, but that's sugar. Not even *that* much more compact. Thing is, C++ will tend to make you structure your code "better", whereas in C, you'll need more discipline for a similar result. To some it's not a problem at all, but I must admit I have witnessed a LOT of developers truly lacking discipline.

One aspect of C++ some developers seem to like in embedded settings are templates. Whereas they are arguably "better" and a lot more featureful than macros, they can also be a nice opportunity for shooting yourself in the foot, so I'm not sure I'm completely sold. Never had that much trouble using macros, as long as they follow some rules, are clear and don't have unwanted side-effects.

As some of us have already said, the crux of the matter is to define a subset of C++, with every developer using a slightly different one, and no real standard or hard guideline for choosing one.

--- End quote ---

Where C++ syntax sugar is more effective for sweetening the code is when something has to maintain its own state and perhaps exist in multiple instances.


--- Code: ---MasterSPI spi1(REGS_SPI1, 1000000);
spi1.write(0xAA);

--- End code ---

Where as back in C one would have to do:

--- Code: ---SPI spi1;
spiInitMaster(&spi1, REGS_SPI1, 1000000);
spiWrite(&spi1, 0xAA);

--- End code ---

This is the usual "C with classes" use of C++ to hide a struct under a fancy looking table cloth. Any decent C++ compiler should generate similar machine code for both of these, but the C++ version looks nicer and is less error prone. Fancier stuff like inheritance can be done by sticking structs in structs, virtual/override functions can be done with function pointers...etc it all just looks uglier in C but works much the same.

Still its the programmers job to keep the code organized, the language just potentially gives him more tools to do so. The only issue with C++ is that it gives him a whole mechanics shop worth of tools but they never learn what all the tools are for, instead they figure out how to use some of them and then use those tools to do everything. As a result the tools get abused for doing things they ware never meant for, then the next guy come along and knows a different set of tools so the ones he used make no sense to him. But when all you get is a single tool belt with just the essential tools hanging of it then everyone will know what each tool is for and how to use it (like in C).

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