How much is owed to your previous employer?

[Pack34]

I've recently gone through an odd experience with my previous employer. How much time an energy should be expected to help out with transitions and information?

I had the unfortunate experience in having a hard time getting my last paycheck. Then I was denied back vacation pay. I found this to be a sticking point because I wasn't able to take a personal day for over a year, which was a big reason for me leaving.

Am I in the wrong by being unwilling to answer questions or help out? I was wiling to be essentially on-call for a couple months but I had to be firm that without being compensated for my time as an employee I wouldn't be willing to help out.

I'm feeling like I'm caught in a bad high-school breakup and I'm just sitting here confused.

Maybe I'm completely in the wrong, but what should I be reasonably expected to do after I leave a company?

[KJDS]

Which country are you in?

[Pack34]

Which country are you in?

US

EDIT:// I know there's no elegant way to try to get compensated for the vacation time besides trying to argue for it in small-claims. But that's not the issue I'm looking at.

Would I be in the wrong for not helping them if I don't get paid? How much help is supposed to be expected?

[Bassman59]

Which country are you in?

US

EDIT:// I know there's no elegant way to try to get compensated for the vacation time besides trying to argue for it in small-claims. But that's not the issue I'm looking at.

Would I be in the wrong for not helping them if I don't get paid? How much help is supposed to be expected?

You owe them absolutely nothing, certainly not for free. If they need you to do any sort of work, you are now a contractor. As part of the contract, they first have to pay you the vacation time owed, and then also 100% of the money at whatever hourly rate you choose up front.

Because you know that even if there's a signed contract, they're not going to pay you after the fact, so get the cash up front.

[Pack34]

Thank you. I needed an outside opinion. I'm really nervous this is going to hurt my professional reputation. I've seen a couple of my former coworkers and they seemed real uncomfortable around me an heard through a third party that I'm considered to be disgruntled and banned from the area.

[Bassman59]

Thank you. I needed an outside opinion. I'm really nervous this is going to hurt my professional reputation. I've seen a couple of my former coworkers and they seemed real uncomfortable around me an heard through a third party that I'm considered to be disgruntled and banned from the area.

Then why do you feel any obligation to them whatsoever?

[Richard Crowley]

I know there's no elegant way to try to get compensated for the vacation time besides trying to argue for it in small-claims. But that's not the issue I'm looking at.

I'm not so sure that is true.  Have you tried contacting your state employment department?  In the states that I have lived in, (California and Oregon) they have pretty fierce powers of compelling the employer to make good on those kinds of things.  Even if they went out of business, employees get first cut at any $$$.

Would I be in the wrong for not helping them if I don't get paid? How much help is supposed to be expected?

It would be one thing to play nice and answer questions on occasion.
But even if you had left under ideal circumstances, doing more than an hour or two of work for them should have a contractor agreement at prevailing rates.

And if you left under a cloud, I'm not sure I would even answer their phone calls.  They can't have it both ways. If they didn't value you enough to provide proper (and legal) benefits while you were their employee, then why are they trying to call you now. And especially if they are trash-talking you to co-workers.

[IanB]

Bad feelings tend to occur when people get some kind of expectation and then find that expectation denied.

Unfortunately in this case it seems you set an expectation that you were available to keep working for them after you resigned, and now the bad feeling is arising from breaking that expectation.

For future reference, the right way to handle this is that after you leave a company and your paycheck stops, all obligations cease there and then. In the USA it is customary to give two weeks notice, and the onus is then on the employer during that two weeks to complete as much information transfer and handover activity as possible.

After you leave you are gone. That's it. As noted above, if the company wants more of your time they should engage you as a contractor and pay you on suitable contract terms for your time and consultancy.

Of course, taking a moment to answer a question once or twice is quite within reason. It would be churlish to refuse. But only once or twice, and not routinely.

[IanB]

I wasn't able to take a personal day for over a year, which was a big reason for me leaving.

This is another lesson to put down to experience. Vacation days are part of your compensation package. It is your right to take them within the year they are allocated. Your manager may influence when you can take them and ask you to avoid certain dates, but you may not be refused to take them at all. It is pretty common in the USA to have a "use it or lose it policy", and it is therefore all too easy to end up losing.

[DimitriP]

Time owed once you leave = 0.

Picking up a "long weekend" gig if they need help and are willing to fly you over from one coast to the other, is about 5-7 times your old rate plus expenses.

Having done this = priceless.

[LaserSteve]

For some employers I've even supported customers after I left.  I've even sent potential customers their way.  I work in a small field, we all know each other.   But in my line of work we're all in one year contracts and they are rarely renewed, although I had one string of nine years.

Its usually good NOT to burn bridges. If you stay in the same field, you probably will encounter some one from the company again.

I've had a few narcissistic managers make it clear you should never come back. About 20% of PhD level management in technical fields are afflicted with that sort of problem. They would bad mouth a Saintly 30 year employee just for leaving the company or retiring. 

   I also find many co-workers who are close friends at work, drop you like a hot potato when you leave.

   I do know if a company needs my time 24-7 and on Christmas, and if the boss even calls me on days off, that is a big warning sign that they are not hiring, and/or  training enough employees. I learned that at the last employer.

Without knowing your situation, it is tough to make a call.

So if last two weeks pay is not there, I'd be calling the State. Did they also withhold first two weeks pay?  If you have to seek un-employment, you may need to document this event to prove you left a hostile employer, depending on the state.

Usually this does not happen with large employers. I now shy away from companies less then 20 employees.

You do owe them compliance  with the legal portions of your NDA and returning any company property you may find later. For about one year.  Be aware that  half the stuff in most NDAs is illegal, especially those terms that deny you employment in your field, so you need them reviewed by a lawyer.


Steve

[AndyC_772]

When I've left companies, I've generally told the remaining engineers that they're welcome to call me if they need to, as a personal favour.

If I can save them hours of banging heads against walls for the sake of a 5 minute call, that's fine with me. It's a small world, and a professional courtesy towards a former colleague can't do any harm at all.

Anything that takes longer, though, would naturally have to be accompanied by a signed copy of my consultancy T&C's and a purchase order. (It helps that I do actually now work for myself as a consulting engineer, so there's no conflict of interests with a new employer).

[pelule]

I just can tell for Germany.
You are a paid employee. You spend your time & knowledge for money. It is a business and that's all.
Does not mean you may not have got personal relations to the people. I still have excellent relations to the people of my former companies, some are still close friends. You may have excellent personal relation to you butcher or funiture seller.
I had a similare situation with one of the companies I worked for as R&D engineer.
3 month after my leave, I got a call and was asked, if I may able to come to help on a problem of one of the systems I developed.
I said yes, for sure I am willing to help.
But I need to get the approval from of my new company (a must) and as I need to take PTO for, I also request to be paid. I offered 3x the payment per hour I got as employee (in Germany you need to calculate 3x you salary is real cost because of tax, insurances etc).
Both companies accepted, I spend two full paid days to solve the problem. All went happy.

[nctnico]

I've recently gone through an odd experience with my previous employer. How much time an energy should be expected to help out with transitions and information? I had the unfortunate experience in having a hard time getting my last paycheck.

I had a similar problem once and even had to use a lawyer to get my last paycheck paid. Let 'm rot!  Fortunately I had this problem with only one employer. I still do contract work for other former employers!

[Pack34]

For some employers I've even supported customers after I left.  I've even sent potential customers their way.  I work in a small field, we all know each other.   But in my line of work we're all in one year contracts and they are rarely renewed, although I had one string of nine years.

Its usually good NOT to burn bridges. If you stay in the same field, you probably will encounter some one from the company again.

I've had a few narcissistic managers make it clear you should never come back. About 20% of PhD level management in technical fields are afflicted with that sort of problem. They would bad mouth a Saintly 30 year employee just for leaving the company or retiring. 

   I also find many co-workers who are close friends at work, drop you like a hot potato when you leave.

   I do know if a company needs my time 24-7 and on Christmas, and if the boss even calls me on days off, that is a big warning sign that they are not hiring, and/or  training enough employees. I learned that at the last employer.

Without knowing your situation, it is tough to make a call.

So if last two weeks pay is not there, I'd be calling the State. Did they also withhold first two weeks pay?  If you have to seek un-employment, you may need to document this event to prove you left a hostile employer, depending on the state.

Usually this does not happen with large employers. I now shy away from companies less then 20 employees.

You do owe them compliance  with the legal portions of your NDA and returning any company property you may find later. For about one year.  Be aware that  half the stuff in most NDAs is illegal, especially those terms that deny you employment in your field, so you need them reviewed by a lawyer.


Steve

I'm not concerned with the NDAs. Never spoke about covered projects and I nuked anything on my personal machines when I left. The non-compete I signed isn't enforceable.

I was paid my salary, just not the vacation time. Took two months to get it. Was told it was lost in the mail. Did 12-20 hours for a month and a half until the paychecks kept on getting lost in the mail. Started asking about the vacation time and was told it would be on the next month's check. When I had finally received it they only put in a week (was supposed to be 3). I then put the remainder on an invoice I sent them. This one was lost in the mail again. When I finally received payment they had redacted it and only paid what they felt like.

At that point I had answered a could questions as asked by the engineers before completely walking away. I get that it was a small business, but I kept on feeling jerked around and undercompensated so I left.

[merc_test_eng]

 I agree with LaserSteve on not burning bridges, you left, so will others, they could end up as coworkers in the future.

IMHO helping out over the phone or email is reasonable, in person & uncompensated is not reasonable.

[DimitriP]

IMHO helping out over the phone or email is reasonable, in person & uncompensated is not reasonable.

It's a common error.
If you are solving "real problems",  you should be getting "real money".
Over the phone, emails or in person.
If you don't believe me, send an email to your attorney and see what you get billed for reading it and answering it.  And he probably doesn't even know Ohm's Law

[KJDS]

IMHO helping out over the phone or email is reasonable, in person & uncompensated is not reasonable.

It's a common error.
If you are solving "real problems",  you should be getting "real money".
Over the phone, emails or in person.
If you don't believe me, send an email to your attorney and see what you get billed for reading it and answering it.  And he probably doesn't even know Ohm's Law

In the UK, most solicitors will give you a free thirty minute chat. I've helped old colleagues, and sometimes those that weren't even still at the place we worked together at. Five minutes of phone guidance costs me nothing, and such favours are often returned.

However it's a completed different matter if it's from a company that owes me money.

[DimitriP]

I've helped old colleagues, and sometimes those that weren't even still at the place we worked together at.

I've been thinking of this from the narrow perspective of "previous employer".
AKA the entity that used to have to pay for the milk and now that you left they somehow can continue getting it for free.
The emphasis is on "continue", implying some sort of unspoken "on-call" situation.

As for helping old collegues, nothing wrong with that unless of course they are now working "for the other side" or a "foreign" government and other "common sense" situations.

It happens here (eevblog) all (ok..some to most) of the time

[nctnico]

IMHO helping out over the phone or email is reasonable, in person & uncompensated is not reasonable.

It's a common error.
If you are solving "real problems",  you should be getting "real money".

There is difference between telling someone in which directory or document to look and changing code you have written or altering a circuit. A visit can also result in contract work so don't be too quick to dismiss coming over to help. Contract work can go on forever!

[all_repair]

It is human to human relationship at the end of the day.  Not no face company to a person.  You are the best person to judge if it is worth investing more.   My way of getting well with my clients and others are to be the first to risk to be taken advantages of (controlled manner), and keep those that reciprocate and that pass the test, and mindful of those that did not.  It is cheaper if they cheat me at the beginning.  After a while, I am so busy with many wonderful parties and  i have no time left on those that I need to be mindful of.

[Throy]

I'm not concerned with the NDAs. Never spoke about covered projects and I nuked anything on my personal machines when I left. The non-compete I signed isn't enforceable.

I was paid my salary, just not the vacation time. Took two months to get it. Was told it was lost in the mail. Did 12-20 hours for a month and a half until the paychecks kept on getting lost in the mail. Started asking about the vacation time and was told it would be on the next month's check. When I had finally received it they only put in a week (was supposed to be 3). I then put the remainder on an invoice I sent them. This one was lost in the mail again. When I finally received payment they had redacted it and only paid what they felt like.

At that point I had answered a could questions as asked by the engineers before completely walking away. I get that it was a small business, but I kept on feeling jerked around and undercompensated so I left.

Regarding the "lost" mail, I've always sent stuff as certified mail if it was important.  You can see when the item was mailed, the attempts to deliver, and the signature of the person that received the mail.  That prevents them from pulling crap like that.

[EEVblog]

You owe them absolutely nothing, certainly not for free. If they need you to do any sort of work, you are now a contractor.

+1
Never, ever, work for free.
If they couldn't organise the transition whilst you were still employed there (and being paid), then that's their fault.

[bookaboo]

When I've left companies, I've generally told the remaining engineers that they're welcome to call me if they need to, as a personal favour.

If I can save them hours of banging heads against walls for the sake of a 5 minute call, that's fine with me. It's a small world, and a professional courtesy towards a former colleague can't do any harm at all.

Anything that takes longer, though, would naturally have to be accompanied by a signed copy of my consultancy T&C's and a purchase order. (It helps that I do actually now work for myself as a consulting engineer, so there's no conflict of interests with a new employer).

100% in agreement.

[kwass]

You owe them absolutely nothing, certainly not for free. If they need you to do any sort of work, you are now a contractor.

+1
Never, ever, work for free.

I disagree.  I'm a computer consultant and often do little bits of free work for new or existing clients.  This helps a lot for word of mouth advertising and keeps my current clients happy in that I don't nickle and dime them.  I do change a lot for my time now, but am very conservative in my billable hours, always in favor of my clients.  I did electronics engineering consulting way back when, for an order of magnitude less money, and took the same approach.

In over 35 years of consulting I've never not gotten paid and I always bill after I do my work.  The trick is to pick your clients as carefully as they would choose you.


In this case the company seems to be in the wrong, I would just walk around from them.  You don't want them as a client.