Arduino gets into the M0 market

[zapta]

To have a complete image about what means today for ATMEL the Maker movement, read their official blog on wordpress.com: http://atmelcorporation.wordpress.com
I can say that they now have the right attitude (as Microchip should).

Just find this at the url you mentioned http://atmelcorporation.wordpress.com/2014/05/16/arduino-zero-in-my-hot-little-hand/

Will be great to have a simple and platform independent replacement for the AVR Studio monstrosity.  ;-)

[jaxbird]

Is there any point in having an official Arduino ARM based board? I mean anyone needing more than a very basic mcu are much better off choosing a specific environment and going from there.

Or am I missing something? My only experience with Arduino is from my 3D printer board being Arduino compatible, but still all written in C?!? I had to make a few firmware changes to update, and I might have missed the point, but the IDE seems very "minimal" to put it politely.

[Stonent]

Is there any point in having an official Arduino ARM based board? I mean anyone needing more than a very basic mcu are much better off choosing a specific environment and going from there.

Or am I missing something? My only experience with Arduino is from my 3D printer board being Arduino compatible, but still all written in C?!? I had to make a few firmware changes to update, and I might have missed the point, but the IDE seems very "minimal" to put it politely.

Well the Arduino Due has been out for at least a year now and it is ARM based.

Again, the point of the Arduino software is to make it easy for people to put things together quickly and prototyping.

[zapta]

Is there any point in having an official Arduino ARM based board? I mean anyone needing more than a very basic mcu are much better off choosing a specific environment and going from there.

That's one way but then you cannot take advantage of the Arduino echo system, easy to install and platform independent tool chain. This improve the openness of open source project (less hassle to clone and mix).

Or am I missing something? My only experience with Arduino is from my 3D printer board being Arduino compatible, but still all written in C?!?

What do you mean by 'still'?   C/C++ is the language of choice for Arduino programs.

[Stonent]

Is there any point in having an official Arduino ARM based board? I mean anyone needing more than a very basic mcu are much better off choosing a specific environment and going from there.

That's one way but then you cannot take advantage of the Arduino echo system, easy to install and platform independent tool chain. This improve the openness of open source project (less hassle to clone and mix).

That and a lot of pre-written code for doing things like driving shift registers, i2c, LCDs, various sensors etc.

[jaxbird]

Well the Arduino Due has been out for at least a year now and it is ARM based.

Again, the point of the Arduino software is to make it easy for people to put things together quickly and prototyping.

I thought the Due was only slightly official? As in not fully supported? Otherwise what is the significance of the Zero?

What do you mean by 'still'?   C/C++ is the language of choice for Arduino programs.

Sorry, I mean, not using the "DigitalRead/Write/Analog" etc. abstraction layer, or I don't know what the actual commands are, but not resembling the Arduino code I've seen elsewhere, just plain metal C.

[Vasi]

When ATMEL says "as easy as ATmega", they refer to C programming, not Wiring or C++...
So, I can't wait to see, using ATMEL Studio 6.2. Well, that depends on Arduino Zero price and availability in my country. Probably after a year or so... maybe I can buy some chips before...

[dannyf]

Is there any point in having an official Arduino ARM based board?

Speed, availability and potentially price.

they refer to C programming,

8-bitters are all quite simple. On top of that, they are comparably simple from vendor to vendor.

32-bitters can also be simple, depending on how you code them.

[zapta]

When ATMEL says "as easy as ATmega", they refer to C programming, not Wiring or C++...

What do you mean by 'not C++' ?  Atmel Studio does support C++.

BTW, C++ is the language of choice for Arduino programs, not C. For example the so common call to Serial.begin() is C++, not C.

[jaxbird]

What do you mean by 'not C++' ?  Atmel Studio does support C++.

BTW, C++ is the language of choice for Arduino programs, not C. For example the so common call to Serial.begin() is C++, not C.

Not really, not the way Bjarne Stoustrup designed the language to be used as a rich object oriented language with polymorphism, inheritance etc.

[zapta]

Sorry, I mean, not using the "DigitalRead/Write/Analog" etc. abstraction layer, or I don't know what the actual commands are, but not resembling the Arduino code I've seen elsewhere, just plain metal C.

This is just a library. You can use it, roll out your own abstraction layer (e.g. https://github.com/zapta/linbus/blob/master/analyzer/arduino/io_pins.h) or just access the registers directly. The beauty of the Arduino environment is that it support a very wide range of skills and needs. They took the avr-gcc and packaged it in a very usable way.

[zapta]

Not really, not the way Bjarne Stoustrup designed the language to be used as a rich object oriented language with polymorphism, inheritance etc.

Like this?

https://github.com/arduino/Arduino/blob/master/hardware/arduino/cores/arduino/Udp.h

[jaxbird]

This is just a library. You can use it, roll out your own abstraction layer (e.g. https://github.com/zapta/linbus/blob/master/analyzer/arduino/io_pins.h) or just access the registers directly. The beauty of the Arduino environment is that it support a very wide range of skills and needs. They took the avr-gcc and packaged it in a very usable way.

I thought the main point was that a common "Arduino" abstraction layer and a boot loader plus the IDE with compiler and code upload capability was the primary idea behind the architecture?

Sure you could do your own hardware specific libraries, but does that not break the whole concept?

[retrolefty]

What do you mean by 'not C++' ?  Atmel Studio does support C++.

BTW, C++ is the language of choice for Arduino programs, not C. For example the so common call to Serial.begin() is C++, not C.

Not really, not the way Bjarne Stoustrup designed the language to be used as a rich object oriented language with polymorphism, inheritance etc.

 I thought his name was Barney Shoestrap?

[retrolefty]

This is just a library. You can use it, roll out your own abstraction layer (e.g. https://github.com/zapta/linbus/blob/master/analyzer/arduino/io_pins.h) or just access the registers directly. The beauty of the Arduino environment is that it support a very wide range of skills and needs. They took the avr-gcc and packaged it in a very usable way.

I thought the main point was that a common "Arduino" abstraction layer and a boot loader plus the IDE with compiler and code upload capability was the primary idea behind the architecture?


Sure you could do your own hardware specific libraries, but does that not break the whole concept?

 It breaks nothing. It just means you can ignore them and use your own functions and libraries if you wish for any specific project/program you write.

[jaxbird]

 I thought his name was Barney Shoestrap?

NO

[retrolefty]

 I thought his name was Barney Shoestrap?

NO

You  sure I read it on the internet.

[jaxbird]

It breaks nothing. It just means you can ignore them and use your own functions and libraries if you wish for any specific project/program you write.

So Arduino really boils down to just any board with a compatible bootloader and a very basic IDE with compile and upload functionality?

I thought the hardware abstraction layer was part of the formula to make the projects hardware agnostic.

[zapta]

Sure you could do your own hardware specific libraries, but does that not break the whole concept?

I did it in my of my projects because I wanted full control over interrupts to reduce bit banging jitter. The only implicit think I found was the timer that used for the system clock (which I disabled) and some serial polling that done between calls to loop (which I avoided by having my own infinite loop within loop(). Worked flawlessly.  In that project I did my own i/o and my own serial library (using the serial hardware but no interrupts).

[zapta]

I thought the hardware abstraction layer was part of the formula to make the projects hardware agnostic.

You are right, also some portability between different boards but basically it is a set of a-la-cart features and use the subset you want. It's very open and flexible in this respect.

[jaxbird]

You are right, also some portability between different boards but basically it is a set of a-la-cart features and use the subset you want. It's very open and flexible in this respect.

OK, thanks  , at least I have a better idea of the concept now.

Is it possible to use a more feature rich IDE, e.g. with some debug, intellisense etc.? Or are those already included in the Arduino IDE?

I've only spent a few hours with it, possibly an old version, doing a couple of code changes, and my impression was that it's very basic.

[zapta]

OK, thanks  , at least I have a better idea of the concept now.

Is it possible to use a more feature rich IDE, e.g. with some debug, intellisense etc.? Or are those already included in the Arduino IDE?

I've only spent a few hours with it, possibly an old version, doing a couple of code changes, and my impression was that it's very basic.

'Basic' is an understatement, it does not even show line numbers  ;-)

Some people use an external editor (you can configure it in the IDE's preferences) or even eclipse (http://playground.arduino.cc/Code/Eclipse) . Never tried it, the stock IDE is good enough for me. If needed I do the changes outside of the IDE but this is very very rare. The arduino IDE is just a thin wrapper around avr-gcc and avrdude but works for me and super easy to install.

[retrolefty]

It breaks nothing. It just means you can ignore them and use your own functions and libraries if you wish for any specific project/program you write.

So Arduino really boils down to just any board with a compatible bootloader and a very basic IDE with compile and upload functionality?

I thought the hardware abstraction layer was part of the formula to make the projects hardware agnostic.

 Only if you want to use the abstraction. The abstraction makes it easier to share programs with another user that may have a mega board (atmega2560) where you have a Uno board (atmega328), but you are free to use direct register I/O if you wish.
 
 Even using the bootloader is optional these days as the IDE has a 'upload using programmer' option where it uses one of several supported ICSP programmers to burn the program onto a target board.

 

[SirNick]

The main advantage of the Arduino IDE (IMO) is that you can install it, load a program, and compile to board very quickly.  Like, "following an amateur blog tutorial" quickly.  And you have a good shot of getting it to work right away.  That is where the advantage ends, though.

Yes, you can use better IDEs -- Atmel Studio for instance -- by copying all the Arduino libraries into your IDE's include directory and/or your project directory, and configuring accordingly.  Then you're writing real C++ in a real IDE with a real compiler (the same compiler actually, but not hidden anymore.)

This is what the ARM world seems to be lacking sorely -- that instant gratification, trivial first experience.