Author Topic: How to pronounce XOR...really?  (Read 16293 times)

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Offline MK14

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #50 on: March 07, 2021, 10:11:26 am »
Rather than arguing about it, build it! ( 74LVC1G386 ).

(Or cheat and look at the datasheet for >2 input XOR gates)

Here is one (3 input XOR).

https://www.nexperia.com/products/analog-logic-ics/control-logic/gates/exclusive-or-gates/series/74LVC1G386.html

https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74LVC1G386.pdf

The ANSWER (as regards a real life 3 input XOR gate) is, it is an **ODD/EVEN PARITY gate/device, not an ALL(but only 1)=1 gate/device (e.g. for valid/correct input of exactly/only one button pressed/selected, on all inputs).

** ODD or EVEN depends on if you use XOR or XNOR, and how you wire it up and interpret it.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 10:21:40 am by MK14 »
 

Offline JohnnyMalariaTopic starter

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #51 on: March 07, 2021, 12:20:10 pm »
2. any odd inputs are high - output is HIGH

Well, that's just modern bullshit. I assume you are referring to cascaded XOR gates used for parity.

The X means EXCLUSIVE. One, not none, not more than one - One. Whoever first applied the term in the parity cases symbolizes the steady erosion of precise use of terminology that I see rampant in papers published by younger scientists. I suspect the same is true in T, E and (I hope not) M.

How old is your prof? I'd wager <35.



You could walk through the binary arithmetic of a multi-input ZOR gate with examples of both interpretations, and even look up standard IEEE 91 - you know because this is an engineering forum.
Perhaps write an angry email to the creator of Logisim on why he allows for both interpretations.
Maybe write some Verilog code?

Or continue to rant and rave over "correct" language and pronunciations from your porch rocking chair because if those are different than your own then it means someone doesn't know electronics concepts.

The absurdity.  :-DD

Logical functions aren't electronic concepts. You are confusing mathematical function with electronic implementation.

IEEE 91 provides a standard for drawing symbols. It doesn't dictate the mathematics though it is clear about the the function of the exclusive or operator.

I'm sorry you consider the need for accuracy as ranting. It's a little odd that you are lackadaisical yet bring a national standard to the table. The problem with standards is that you can have conflicting ones. What IEEE say, IEC may say differently.

By all means call your parity function a "zor", but write it as such to avoid confusion with xor.
 

Offline Cubdriver

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #52 on: March 07, 2021, 02:58:12 pm »
Rather than arguing about it, build it! ( 74LVC1G386 ).

(Or cheat and look at the datasheet for >2 input XOR gates)

Here is one (3 input XOR).

https://www.nexperia.com/products/analog-logic-ics/control-logic/gates/exclusive-or-gates/series/74LVC1G386.html

https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74LVC1G386.pdf

The ANSWER (as regards a real life 3 input XOR gate) is, it is an **ODD/EVEN PARITY gate/device, not an ALL(but only 1)=1 gate/device (e.g. for valid/correct input of exactly/only one button pressed/selected, on all inputs).

** ODD or EVEN depends on if you use XOR or XNOR, and how you wire it up and interpret it.

Nexperia did a nice job of making that truth table more difficult to read by using 'H' and 'L' rather than the more common (in my experience, anyway) '1' and '0', thus making the it appear to be filled with uniform square blocks as opposed to fat zeroes and skinny ones that are much easier to differentiate.  Perhaps the uniformity appears more pleasing aesthetically to an artistic type, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to quickly interpret the information the table is meant to convey.

-Pat
If it jams, force it.  If it breaks, you needed a new one anyway...
 

Offline MK14

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #53 on: March 07, 2021, 03:29:44 pm »
Nexperia did a nice job of making that truth table more difficult to read by using 'H' and 'L' rather than the more common (in my experience, anyway) '1' and '0', thus making the it appear to be filled with uniform square blocks as opposed to fat zeroes and skinny ones that are much easier to differentiate.  Perhaps the uniformity appears more pleasing aesthetically to an artistic type, but it makes it a hell of a lot more difficult to quickly interpret the information the table is meant to convey.

-Pat

There is always the Texas Instruments version:
https://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/sn74lvc1g386.pdf

But it also seems to use the H/L format.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #54 on: March 07, 2021, 05:24:24 pm »
H/L was ths standard used in the TI TTL databook, which was a very popular (if not the most popular) reference for logic gates.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline TimFox

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #55 on: March 07, 2021, 05:27:43 pm »
The Motorola books on ECL logic gates used to have two sets of tables for positive logic (more positive level = Boolean 1) and negative logic (more negative level = 1), since they were designed to run at -5.2 V Vee and 0 Vcc.
 
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Offline 16bitanalogue

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #56 on: March 07, 2021, 06:23:54 pm »

IEEE 91 provides a standard for drawing symbols. It doesn't dictate the mathematics though it is clear about the the function of the exclusive or operator.

This weak. You are one of these supposed greybeards yet you are whining about "younger engineers" while completely failing to do any, and I mean ANY cursory research. Pull up the standard, and read pg. 62. It is not definitive, but it is merely one piece to why there are 2 interpretations of the XOR gate when multiple inputs are concerned.

Quote
I'm sorry you consider the need for accuracy as ranting. It's a little odd that you are lackadaisical yet bring a national standard to the table. The problem with standards is that you can have conflicting ones. What IEEE say, IEC may say differently.

Seems to me that everyone who actually has needed to implement logic is ok with understanding that there are 2 different interpretations of a multi-input XOR gate. I will leave it up to standards body and as long as one is referenced then conversations can be clearer. Not based on some rando on an Internet forum whining about "young engineers" or "you are pronouncing it wrong in my irrelevant opinion therefore you don't understand how something works."

Quote
By all means call your parity function a "zor", but write it as such to avoid confusion with xor.

I am ok with calling a 2-input or multi-input "ZOR" because I know how it works and I also understand the 'conflicting' viewpoints.

I mean, get this, son. A 2 input XOR does fit to the "exclusive" meaning, but it is also only high when a single input is high. You know, single input...ONE input. Isn't one an odd number? hmmmmm....This is not a subject that is as detrimental in regards to language as you are trying to make it out to be.

We could go at length over this, but the reality is, as others have already shown, there are actually real IC's that are multi-input XOR gates. This has been discussed as well, even a cursory Google search literally just did in 30 seconds pulls up discussions and a website going through the arithmetic.

https://mindhunter74.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/xor-the-interesting-gate/
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/93713/how-is-an-xor-with-more-than-2-inputs-supposed-to-work
https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74LVC1G386.pdf

Logisim, LogicWorks, actual coding, generally point toward the 'odd-parity' function for a multi-input XOR.

You may feel passionate about this topic, but what you are NOT is the definitive authority on the subject. Know your lane and stay in it. I have noticed that the "older generation" on this forum likes to throw shade, but offers no legitimate argumentation in return. "I think, I feel, I believe..." It is such profound sadness that someone with supposedly decades of knowledge and experience ends up bring so very little to the table. I sincerely hope you are retired and do not mentor anyone because you would do them a disservice. If you are not retired, please PM me your details that way if I ever see your resume, I will toss it is the trash. That ends my snippy rant.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2021, 06:34:31 pm by 16bitanalogue »
 

Offline JohnnyMalariaTopic starter

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #57 on: March 07, 2021, 06:41:56 pm »

IEEE 91 provides a standard for drawing symbols. It doesn't dictate the mathematics though it is clear about the the function of the exclusive or operator.

This weak. You are one of these supposed greybeards yet you are whining about "younger engineers" while completely failing to do any, and I mean ANY cursory research. Pull up the standard, and read pg. 62. It is not definitive, but it is merely one piece to why there are 2 interpretations of the XOR gate when multiple inputs are concerned.

Quote
I'm sorry you consider the need for accuracy as ranting. It's a little odd that you are lackadaisical yet bring a national standard to the table. The problem with standards is that you can have conflicting ones. What IEEE say, IEC may say differently.

Seems to me that everyone who actually has needed to implement logic is ok with understanding that there are 2 different interpretations of a multi-input XOR gate. I will leave it up to standards body and as long as one is referenced then conversations can be clearer. Not based on some rando on an Internet forum whining about "young engineers" or "you are pronouncing it wrong in my irrelevant opinion therefore you don't understand how something works."

Quote
By all means call your parity function a "zor", but write it as such to avoid confusion with xor.

I am ok with calling a 2-input or multi-input "ZOR" because I know how it works and I also understand the 'conflicting' viewpoints.

I mean, get this, son. A 2 input XOR does fit to the "exclusive" meaning, but it is also only high when a single input is high. You know, single input...ONE input. Isn't one an odd number? hmmmmm....This is not a subject that is as detrimental in regards to language as you are trying to make it out to be.

We could go at length over this, but the reality is, as others have already shown, there are actually real IC's that are multi-input XOR gates. This has been discussed as well, even a cursory Google search literally just did in 30 seconds pulls up discussions and a website going through the arithmetic.

https://mindhunter74.wordpress.com/2011/04/25/xor-the-interesting-gate/
https://electronics.stackexchange.com/questions/93713/how-is-an-xor-with-more-than-2-inputs-supposed-to-work
https://assets.nexperia.com/documents/data-sheet/74LVC1G386.pdf

Logisim, LogicWorks, actual coding, generally point toward the 'odd-parity' function for a multi-input XOR.

You may feel passionate about this topic, but what you are NOT is the definitive authority on the subject. Know your lane and stay in it. I have noticed that the "older generation" on this forum likes to throw shade, but offers no legitimate argumentation in return. "I think, I feel, I believe..." It is such profound sadness that someone with supposedly decades of knowledge and experience ends up bring so very little to the table. I sincerely hope you are retired and do not mentor anyone because you would do them a disservice. If you are not retired, please PM me your details that way if I ever see your resume, I will toss it is the trash. That ends my snippy rant.

 :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD :-DD

Go lie down.
 

Offline hamster_nz

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #58 on: March 07, 2021, 08:18:31 pm »
I don't know who is trying to construct a post-truth XOR, but the "true when only one one input is high, even for more that two inputs" does not pass the Commutativity and Associativity requirements of the actual XOR function.  The actual XOR function has only two inputs... it is "one input is high, but not both". As a more practical matter, it would make things like RAID5 and ECC memory pretty useless.

For another post-truth fact, if you refine logical true as 'voltage low' and logical false as 'voltage high', an AND gate is actually an OR gate, and a OR gate is actually and AND gate... so all of those things are conflicting, and are only established through convention.

Please make sure you point this out to your mentors and coworkers so they can easily identify you as a 'progressive thinker' who needs to be respected.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2021, 03:45:00 am by hamster_nz »
Gaze not into the abyss, lest you become recognized as an abyss domain expert, and they expect you keep gazing into the damn thing.
 

Offline wally2q

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #59 on: March 26, 2021, 03:40:19 am »
I pronounce it as 'ZOR' because that is how I learned it from my professor in university and I know how it works.

It's X-OR. 

It's actually OK to re-align (ie correct) one's thinking from time to time.  Failing to do so is considered to be stubbornness... or ignorance.
Just because some prof told you something, doesn't mean it's divine gospel.  Bill gates once said that nobody ever will need more than 640k of RAM.
Your prof was wrong.  He also needs to correct himself.

I mean what would you say if someone pronounced your call sign as 16bitanaloju-ee.  You'd correct them right?... we're doing the same here.

cheers!
 

Offline Alex Eisenhut

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Re: How to pronounce XOR...really?
« Reply #60 on: March 26, 2021, 04:14:42 am »
Survey says

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