Author Topic: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?  (Read 4401 times)

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Offline uskiTopic starter

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How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« on: November 08, 2020, 03:39:41 am »
Hi there,

I purchased this product :
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B07Y47WVZ9/

I disassembled it and I believe it is unsafe for the following reasons :
- It only has two small glass fuses (similar in dimensions to these), I am not sure they can safely interrupt the 10A going through this unit...
- Worse, the overheat protection is achieved with a thermistor and is software controlled... if the microcontroller goes bad, no protection
- And even worse : since there is no thermal fuse, if the transistors controlling the relays controlling the heater elements fail short, there will be no way to turn this thing off !!! Even if there is an overheating condition...
- Also, it bears the Class II / double insulation logo. But all there is between the live ceramic heater and the user is a thin metal mesh and half an inch of air. Is this really class II ?..

Of course the unit is not UL listed or anything. Just some dodgy CE mark and random logos.

This is really the type of product that works well for 99.99% of people, but when it goes bad, it can go really bad.
I would really like to get this piece of cr** out of the market. But Amazon will request supporting documentation. I am located in the US.
Is there any regulation in the US preventing this product from being sold ?

I am pretty sure there is... but I cannot find it

Any experience in similar situations ?
I'm pretty sure I won't be able to do it...
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #1 on: November 08, 2020, 04:50:40 am »
You could send it back to Amazon, beyond that I'm not sure there's much you can do. Out of the things you listed, the lack of a thermal fuse is the only issue that would concern me. Most space heaters lack any kind of overcurrent fuse, they simply rely on the breaker protecting the circuit they are plugged into.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2020, 06:58:36 pm by james_s »
 

Offline amyk

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #2 on: November 08, 2020, 05:32:32 am »
It's a PTC heater. They self-regulate and won't keep heating to destruction:



 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #3 on: November 08, 2020, 07:41:29 am »
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Is there any regulation in the US preventing this product from being sold ?

If it's anything like here (UK) then there should be plenty if it's unsafe. The authorities might give the importer a good going over if you report it. Unfortunately, you are the importer so you might not want to take that route...

If you're unhappy with it, return it to Amazon. Shouldn't be any trouble, but if they do quibble just point out that it's unsafe and probably failing whatever trading regulations you have over there.
 

Offline uskiTopic starter

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #4 on: November 08, 2020, 06:22:54 pm »
Unfortunately, you are the importer so you might not want to take that route...

Nope, it has been shipped from the USA, so it was already there. So I'm not the importer :)
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2020, 07:35:25 pm »
I think that would be debatable. You purchased if from some place in the Far East and they delivered via their drop-shipper in the US. The likes of DHL and UPS are not importers. I wouldn't want to be arguing the toss about that with the authorities if they were looking for a scapegoat.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2020, 08:34:52 pm »
First of all, it's probably reasonably safe as is, especially since it is PTC-heater based. 

Really the only thing it sounds like it is missing is a thermal fuse for extra, last-resort over-temperature protection and actual proper certification.  Thermal fuses do seem to tend to die unnecessarily, prematurely when there is not actual fault in the product.  Luckily they're relatively cheap and readily available so make for an easy fix, but to most people it just seems like premature product failure and another discarded item unnecessarily sent off to the landfill.  Coffee pots always seem to be bad for that, I've changed dozens of thermal fuses in coffee pots in my lifetime.   :)

Yeah, that looks like some generic Chinese import purchased through the Amazon Marketplace, rather than from Amazon itself, which would probably be more likely to be properly certified if were actually from Amazon.

If a product that plugs into the AC line really doesn't have a certification mark from one of the NRTLs (Nationally Recognized Testing Laboratory) like Intertek, CSA or UL, or have a special approvals or provisional approval sticker, it really shouldn't be sold in the US or Canada.  I don't believe it is actually currently legally required in the US, but a manufacturer or distributor would be insane not to get their product certified since if there's a fire or something, they would always be fully liable without proof of certification.

Current list of valid NRTLs for the US:
https://www.osha.gov/dts/otpca/nrtl/nrtllist.html

Since the OP is the importer, though, you're likely the one to be liable for importing and connecting an uncertified product to the mains, and good luck going back after the actual manufacturer and supplier in China.  That's the problem with importing random cheap, uncertified products from foreign lands.

Now, the thing is, I think this is appropriate.  If I want to buy one of the nice 3000W British kettles and change the plug to use it here in Canada, I should be able to do that, but I also realize that I'm probably taking a chance at who is going to be responsible if the thing bursts into flames.  :)

I don't want customs to be searching every imported item and telling me I can't import it because it doesn't have certification.  There are many reasons I might want to do that, but if I actually use it I'd better be pretty darn sure it is safe, and use it appropriately, perhaps like not leaving said device plugged in unattended, etc.  In the case of a British kettle, as long as I buy one that is good quality and is certified for use there, as well as watch for any potential recalls of that kettle in Britain, since they won't show up on recalled product lists here, I'm probably fine since it's the kind of device that is usually only used for a short period of time, while you're right there, then unplugged.
 

Offline pigrew

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2020, 05:39:37 am »
In the USA, most jurisdictions do not require testing by a NRTL. It's mostly insurance companies that want products to be listed, though there are some particular categories of items (like hard-wired electrical devices) that do have listing requirements.

Amazon has a page that details their requirements for products on its website. They say it must "comply with applicable industry standards" which may (or might not) be construed to mean that it must meet UL requirements for your product. However, there is no requirement that it actually has to be listed (unless it's in one of the special government-regulated product classes).

Glass fuses sound perfectly fine (as long as they are >125V rated).

If the metal mesh is isolated, it should be perfectly fine, too.

What about the tilt-detection? Is that some hardware thing, or software-controlled too?

If you really wanted to stress test it, check if it's able to safely handle RF interference. If you blast it with radio waves, will it crash the MCU and overheat? Another failure mechanism could be if an electrolytic capacitor dies and the MCU's voltage supply goes bad.

While not bullet-proof, it's probably safe enough, at least for ten years of usage.
 

Offline james_s

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2020, 07:16:01 am »
You really should never run any sort of portable space heater unattended anyway. My most used heater is at least 60 years old and has no protection at all,  the grill has big enough gaps that a child could probably stick their whole hand in and touch the exposed element, but I don't have kids, and I don't leave it on when I'm not there to keep an eye on it. Most heater accidents are due to improper use, people run them too close to flammable materials or in situations where they can fall over or things can fall on them.
 

Offline Jeroen3

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2020, 08:17:24 am »
Even if said unit catches fire. It still heats the space.
 
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Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2020, 05:48:51 pm »
I doubt there is anything you can do.  TONS of dodgy stuff on there.  I would write a review indicating the issues, and that's about all you can do.  Hope they don't delete it.

What I find annoying is how China can send all this stuff here and don't need to go through UL etc... but if one of us wanted to make a product we would need to go through all those processes.  I hate the double standard.
 

Offline mag_therm

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #11 on: November 09, 2020, 06:05:05 pm »

I disassembled it and I believe it is unsafe for the following reasons :
- It only has two small glass fuses (similar in dimensions to these), I am not sure they can safely interrupt the 10A going through this unit...

According to the data sheet for the fuses of your url, they have 10,000 Amp interrupting capacity at 125V.   UR and CSA
I think these tiny fuses have high capacity ratings because they open so early in the rise time of  fault pulse.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #12 on: November 09, 2020, 10:18:25 pm »
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What I find annoying is how China can send all this stuff here

Actually, it's us (rather, you) that imports the stuff from China. They're not selling here - you are buying from there.

And, thinking this through a bit, that the stuff doesn't pass approvals generally doesn't matter since you're not selling it to anyone. It's when you sell that the rules step in to protect your buyer.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #13 on: November 12, 2020, 06:18:38 am »
Quote
What I find annoying is how China can send all this stuff here

Actually, it's us (rather, you) that imports the stuff from China. They're not selling here - you are buying from there.

And, thinking this through a bit, that the stuff doesn't pass approvals generally doesn't matter since you're not selling it to anyone. It's when you sell that the rules step in to protect your buyer.

If I go on amazon.ca and it's listed, than as far as I'm concerned, they're selling it here.     It's not any different than if they set up a physical store here and started to sell it.   Why is it that they can sell it, but then if *I* sell it now suddenly it's a problem?  There's a big double standard here.   
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2020, 07:00:16 am »
If I go on amazon.ca and it's listed, than as far as I'm concerned, they're selling it here.     It's not any different than if they set up a physical store here and started to sell it.   Why is it that they can sell it, but then if *I* sell it now suddenly it's a problem?  There's a big double standard here.

Do you think that buying something off ebay that comes from china means that ebay is selling it?

You're forgetting that a huge percentage of items available through Amazon are from third party sellers located all across the world, sold through Amazon's "Marketplace".  Marketplace is the latest fad, everyone wants to include sales of everything from everywhere so they can tack on their margins as middleman. 

Even Digikey is setting up for these marketplace shenanigans, likely to their own detriment.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #15 on: November 12, 2020, 07:03:18 am »
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If I go on amazon.ca and it's listed, than as far as I'm concerned, they're selling it here

So when you click the link on this website that takes you to JLCPCB to order some boards, it's actually Dave that you are buying the boards from and who is responsible to you? When you buy some kit in the buy/sell topic from some Russian with radiation burns, it's actually Dave you're buying from and who is responsible for you killing yourself because the PE is missing? I don't think so :)

There is a big difference between Amazon selling you Amazon stuff and Amazon acting as an Ebay (or EEVBlog buy/sell topic) clone.
 

Offline Red Squirrel

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #16 on: November 12, 2020, 07:56:38 am »
If I go on amazon.ca and it's listed, than as far as I'm concerned, they're selling it here.     It's not any different than if they set up a physical store here and started to sell it.   Why is it that they can sell it, but then if *I* sell it now suddenly it's a problem?  There's a big double standard here.

Do you think that buying something off ebay that comes from china means that ebay is selling it?

You're forgetting that a huge percentage of items available through Amazon are from third party sellers located all across the world, sold through Amazon's "Marketplace".  Marketplace is the latest fad, everyone wants to include sales of everything from everywhere so they can tack on their margins as middleman. 

Even Digikey is setting up for these marketplace shenanigans, likely to their own detriment.

That's a bit different, Ebay is not a retailer.  Amazon is.    And yeah I hate this marketplace thing, I guess that does create a gray area.  As a buyer you don't really know where stuff comes from anymore.

If I go to Walmart and buy something made in China, it's still Walmart selling it even though they bought it from China.  At least that's how I see it.  It seems to me the way they have the law setup puts China at a huge advantage since they don't need to abide by our laws and the responsibility falls on us.   But if we want to sell stuff ourselves then the responsibility still falls on us and not the buyer.  It's a double standard if you ask me.  These laws need to be changed so it's fair for locals who want to manufacture stuff so that everyone is on an even playing field.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 07:59:12 am by Red Squirrel »
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #17 on: November 12, 2020, 08:29:25 am »
That's a bit different, Ebay is not a retailer.  Amazon is.    And yeah I hate this marketplace thing, I guess that does create a gray area.  As a buyer you don't really know where stuff comes from anymore.

Amazon is also a retailer, but they're also now an eBay clone, acting as middleman, connecting you with a million other retailers through their portal.

Quote
If I go to Walmart and buy something made in China, it's still Walmart selling it even though they bought it from China.  At least that's how I see it.

Sure, if you go to the physical store.  If you shop Walmart online, they have both products sold by Walmart as well as products from their marketplace just like Amazon does.  You can buy things via Walmart's web site that are not actually sold by Walmart at all.

Quote
It seems to me the way they have the law setup puts China at a huge advantage since they don't need to abide by our laws and the responsibility falls on us.   But if we want to sell stuff ourselves then the responsibility still falls on us and not the buyer.  It's a double standard if you ask me.  These laws need to be changed so it's fair for locals who want to manufacture stuff so that everyone is on an even playing field.

You're free to build something dodgy here and try to sell it to some sucker in China, it's just that the economics of attempting to do that aren't likely to be favorable.   ;)
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #18 on: November 12, 2020, 11:58:57 am »
We in the West need to wake up. We should not put up with dangerous goods entering our countries, but we do.

If I sell something dangerous and someone dies, I could go to jail. There are clearly two sets of laws - one set for the rich and powerful, another for the rest of us. If eBay or Amazon sell something that kills someone or is clearly dangerous or fraudulent, I can guarantee you none of their staff or CEOs will face charges. We have bank in Australia called Westpac that has been fined for supporting the activities of paedophiles, terrorists and organised criminals. They got a fine of $1.3 BILLION, but not one of their executives or the CEO went to jail over allowing such activities to go on for years. We had a woman who ran a theme park in Queensland leave with a $700K severance pay after the theme park she was running kill four innocent people on a ride due to a gross lack of safety, procedures, records and training. I cannot understand why she was not charged with manslaughter of the four people. If I sold a car with faulty brakes, and it killed four people, I will be jailed. We need to make the executives of companies which allow dangerous or fraudulent products to be sold PERSONALLY accountable, as well as the company.

Now the Chinese Communist Party is banning many Australian goods being imported into China, spreading rumours and lies that our goods are infested with some parasite, disease or other trumped up excuse, when everyone knows it is a political attack on Australia by the CCP. The West should at least start banning entire product types coming out of China that do not meet safety or EMC standards. They will soon get a clear message as they lose a large chunk of their exports. At least our bans will be based on protecting our citizens and not on trumped up bullshit.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2020, 12:01:30 pm by VK3DRB »
 
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Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #19 on: November 12, 2020, 04:46:12 pm »
Quote
They got a fine of $1.3 BILLION, but not one of their executives or the CEO went to jail over allowing such activities to go on for years.

That's because it was the company that did bad. The whole point of having a limited company is that it's the entity that gets the stick if it does wrong, just as it's the company that reaps the rewards when it does right. If the CEO caused the company to lose a billion or two, the company might think it needs a better CEO and give that one the boot, but it's an internal matter.

OTOH,  there are some things where a specific real person is liable, typically when self-certifying for the CE mark.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #20 on: November 12, 2020, 04:49:11 pm »
The whole point of having a limited company is that it's the entity that gets the stick if it does wrong, just as it's the company that reaps the rewards when it does right. If the CEO caused the company to lose a billion or two, the company might think it needs a better CEO and give that one the boot, but it's an internal matter.

Limited liability corporations are there to protect the shareholders

The directors of the corporation are the ones legally responsible for the corporation's actions, yet rarely actually are.

Money talks louder than words and actions, and all that...   ::)
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2020, 02:39:10 pm »
The whole point of having a limited company is that it's the entity that gets the stick if it does wrong, just as it's the company that reaps the rewards when it does right. If the CEO caused the company to lose a billion or two, the company might think it needs a better CEO and give that one the boot, but it's an internal matter.

Limited liability corporations are there to protect the shareholders

The directors of the corporation are the ones legally responsible for the corporation's actions, yet rarely actually are.

Money talks louder than words and actions, and all that...   ::)

Correct.

Australia's financial crime watchdog found Westpac Bank committed 23 million breaches of anti-money laundering and counter-terrorism financing laws as well as aiding the activities of paedophiles. The CEO walked out with $2.7 million payout. If I funded terrorists, I get up to twenty years in a tough jail. The Commonwealth Bank here was caught committing a range of significant crimes including theft of money, yet the CEO left with a $12 million worth of shares plus other pay. If I went and robbed a bank for $1000, I would go to jail. The banks can commit crimes and the big man gets rewarded. But the little man commits a much lesser crime and law punishes him.

https://www.theage.com.au/national/victoria/coroner-rules-over-fatal-wall-collapse-on-swanston-street-20180607-p4zk3o.html
No jail for anyone, despite these dodgy building companies killing innocent people though negligence.

Limited Liability should not allow those responsible to have limited liability for big crimes committed, or when people die. Same goes for importers, eBay, Amazon and others of unsafe non-compliant electronic products or toys that kills or injure consumers. Jail is a good deterrent, not a company fine. The law needs to change.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2020, 03:21:42 pm »
Jail is a good deterrent, not a company fine. The law needs to change.

The laws are there, that's not the issue, they are just very selectively enforced.
 

Offline PlainName

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2020, 08:50:00 pm »
Quote
Jail is a good deterrent, not a company fine.

Great, but how are you going to jail a company?

The problem here, which you are missing, is that the company is a legal entity with the same standing as a flesh&blood person. The CEO is merely an employee of that entity and his liability would be no different if you were self-employed and he was your employee.

Fine, you say, it is ludicrous that some virtual paper-based thing is the same as a person. Unfortunately, our systems rely on that being the case so that's how it is.
 

Offline VK3DRB

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Re: How to report an unsafe electrical product ?
« Reply #24 on: November 14, 2020, 12:35:31 am »
Quote
Jail is a good deterrent, not a company fine.

Great, but how are you going to jail a company?

The problem here, which you are missing, is that the company is a legal entity with the same standing as a flesh&blood person. The CEO is merely an employee of that entity and his liability would be no different if you were self-employed and he was your employee.

Fine, you say, it is ludicrous that some virtual paper-based thing is the same as a person. Unfortunately, our systems rely on that being the case so that's how it is.

Maybe the systems should change as part of development of civilisation. If a CEO who does the wrong thing is looking at spending 20 years sharing a cell with Big Bubba who wants a playmate, they will clean up their act quick smart.
 


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