Author Topic: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem  (Read 14088 times)

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Offline edy

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #225 on: November 17, 2019, 09:27:02 am »
Interesting bridge. Sometimes you have to save people from not paying attention, even if you try to make it as obvious possible, some will not notice or visualize. If you want to completely avoid the issue, put up a bunch of barriers on all roads approaching the bridge (several intersections before on every road leading in) of the type with hanging chains. Any truck even trying to approach the bridge will get their roof banged up a few times before they even come close.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norfolk_Southern–Gregson_Street_Overpass
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 09:28:48 am by edy »
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Offline tooki

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #226 on: November 17, 2019, 09:06:02 pm »
Add a very slow speed limit like 20mph at least 1000 ft away from the bridge. This will give the truckers enough time to slow down and read the sign.
They do. Every conceivable low-hanging fruit was done long ago.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #227 on: November 17, 2019, 09:58:08 pm »
Painting the steel barrier a brighter color? How much would that cost?

I'm sure someone else has also noted this. The Pensky truck in the original video runs a red on his way to the crash. Perhaps those flashing red lights are distracting the driver from the traffic light and/or barrier more than they are helping?

No flashing lights. Just a brightly painted barrier with the height painted right on it. No signs, no other clutter. Have spot lights pointed at the barrier to light it like day, vs flashing lights pointed at the driver.

A standard sheet metal road sign with letters on it doesn't hurt you. Blinky lights don't hurt you. The giant steel barrier is what is going to ruin your day. This should draw the attention.

+ of course the greatest idea of hanging a sign of the same height, AT LEAST at the intersection facing the bridge, so even when the light is green and traffic is moving fast, the sign is not going to damage someone's truck who is NOT going under the bridge.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:16:07 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #228 on: November 17, 2019, 10:08:35 pm »
Well since we're going over this yet again... ::)

I repeat:

No amount of visual communication matters, to a driver that is not looking.

Colors don't matter.

Lights don't matter.

Sirens or chains or waterfalls might matter, but don't leave much time to react, and may confuse the driver.  Or they might not be paying attention to that sense, either.

How do you intend to visually communicate with a driver that isn't looking?
How do you intend to audibly communicate with a driver that isn't listening?

Tim
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Offline tooki

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #229 on: November 17, 2019, 10:10:49 pm »
Painting the steel barrier a brighter color? How much would that cost?

I'm sure someone else has also noted this. The Pensky truck in the original video runs a red on his way to the crash. Perhaps those flashing red lights are distracting the driver from the traffic light and/or barrier more than they are helping?

No flashing lights. Just a brightly painted barrier with the height painted right on it. No signs, no other clutter. Have spot lights pointed at the barrier to light it like day, vs flashing lights pointed at the driver.

A standard sheet metal box shaped road sign with letters on it doesn't hurt you. Blinky lights don't hurt you. Giant steel barrier is what is going to ruin your day. This should draw the attention.
The barrier was originally bright yellow (like the new one that was just installed), but the paint was worn off by the crashes. 😂

As a reminder to all the smartasses who think a simple solution would fix it, please read the FAQ first: https://11foot8.com/faq/

Cuz as I said, all the low hanging fruit was tried LONG ago.
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #230 on: November 17, 2019, 10:19:27 pm »
Quote
No amount of visual communication matters, to a driver that is not looking.
I agree on this. IMO, it is very common for drivers on a long drive to NOT READ SIGNS.

For this person, the actual barrier will be the first time they notice anything. Do you want to put one more sign here in case they start reading them?

If there's a blinking red lights and signs, and the barrier is black, and it is night, they maybe see... blinking red lights. Lights which are high enough for their truck to clear, btw, which is pretty weird in itself. Why not put the lights lower.

 :-//

Shine the spotlights at the barrier (at not from) and put the height on the barrier. Does this stop all crashes? No. does it reduce them? Maybe? But it doesn't cost much and no, it does not seem like they have done this before.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 10:45:33 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #231 on: November 17, 2019, 10:26:12 pm »
Well since we're going over this yet again... ::)

I repeat:

No amount of visual communication matters, to a driver that is not looking.

Colors don't matter.

Lights don't matter.

Sirens or chains or waterfalls might matter, but don't leave much time to react, and may confuse the driver.  Or they might not be paying attention to that sense, either.

How do you intend to visually communicate with a driver that isn't looking?
How do you intend to audibly communicate with a driver that isn't listening?

Tim
People love bringing up all the things discussed again and again.  :palm:
 
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Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #232 on: November 17, 2019, 10:36:36 pm »
I think in the least to try to get him to see the one thing that might draw the attention of this guy that is not paying attention.

You put up signs of "giant man eating bear" and it's just a sign. At least try to make him notice the giant man eating bear when he gets there.

This why you shine the light AT the barrier, not FROM the barrier. The idea is to show him the bear, not another (soft glowy) concept of a bear.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2019, 11:22:17 pm by KL27x »
 

Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #233 on: November 17, 2019, 11:21:24 pm »
Another idea is a change to the height detector warning.
Instead of blinking lights, something like a railroad crossing barrier, but one that will fire very quickly and also not cause damage to a car that does not stop (in case of erroneous firing)?

Maybe even better to make it so high that normal consumer cars will just go under, anyway. And only trucks will get the message right quick when it drops 3 feet down from the barrier all glowing with "STOP! Do not enter."

It seems the blinking red lights don't work, because to everyone who drives it means stop and look for traffic... then go. Not stop and stay stopped and then turn around.

To say there's no way to get the attention of a driver that isn't paying attention is not thinking it through. If he is not paying attention to visual cues, he would have ran off the road and crashed a long time ago. He can't get here if he is not looking at something... something more important to him than reading a sign. If he see's a truck coming at him, he will react. He is looking and processing visual information. Maybe there's a way to reach this driver, visually, then.

I have a personal anecdote from an 8 hour drive. There was some road work and lots of traffic, going on miles and miles and miles. To me? W/e. I was 4 hours of driving at this point, and I'm just following the car ahead of me. This traffic and signs went on for like an hour, and I read... none of them. Well, I'm in the left lane. Finally, the car ahead of me merges right, and I see.... road block coming up FAST.  I have plenty of time to stop, still.  But signs, lights, warnings, nothing do I care.. esp if you have warning that you must merge an hour before you get there. This is crying wolf. you get desensitized. Traffic going this way, I'm going this way. Ok, done thinking. Actual physical road block?.. ok, I see this and I know it is important. No more warnings. This is what the last hour of signs was all about, and it is obvious. It's time now to give a shit. But if I stop, I will be stuck for hours until traffic dies off. So I look, I have a spot, I merge...in front of a unmarked off duty cop, who apparently had a bad enough day to take his personal time to play traffic cop to me. Ticket for passing in a no pass zone. (And he didn't believe my honest explanation; to him, I was weaving in and out of traffic and cutting people off to "beat" others when I was actually following same car, same lane for an hour.)
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 12:57:07 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #234 on: November 18, 2019, 12:23:50 am »
How do you intend to visually communicate with a driver that isn't looking?
How do you intend to audibly communicate with a driver that isn't listening?

Tim

How? Play with their innate biological wiring for threat perception. I've noticed that if I'm driving along and someone looks like they are going to inattentively pull out of a side road into my path, if I adjust my course temporarily so that I'm aiming directly for them they are much more likely to notice me approaching. Nature has wired us to notice something heading straight towards because it might be a potential threat. How you'd apply this to the bridge I can't offhand imagine, but there must be some way to play with this.

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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #235 on: November 18, 2019, 12:56:39 am »
Sure, if they're looking.

Shall I repeat again? ::)

For a concrete example, say someone's staring at their phone while blaring loud music.  Or for a slightly dated example, staring at a map that they've unfolded in front of them.  Or for a stupider example, trying to eat, or apply makeup, or brush teeth, or change clothes.  All things that have been observed in motor vehicles, in motion, on roads.

See, the fundamental problem is trying to approach the problem from your own perspective.  You don't DO these things, so you can't imagine someone having a problem with them.  These are not typical accidents.  All the regular people have been sorted out by the signs, red lights and markings.  People really are this stupid, and to solve the problem, you must understand this far-flung tail of the bell curve.

The problem is, the bell curve is very wide at this distance, which is to say, there are many more ways to be stupid, than there are ways to be smart.  Nature always finds a better fool!

Tim
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 12:59:25 am by T3sl4co1l »
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Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #236 on: November 18, 2019, 01:02:27 am »
 ^This is funny. How 127 crashes per year are from guy that can drive all across country while staring at phone, somehow stay and follow the road, somehow not rear-end anyone, but these 127 people cannot see a barrier.

The rental guys you can't stop them all. They just forgot they are driving a tall truck, because they have entered "automatic" mode. These crashes, they see the barrier, they see the signs, they register 11ft 8", but they don't think this will matter to them.

For the guys that were just lala along and not reading the signs, but are aware they are driving a 12 foot truck, at least let them see the actual physical thing they are about to wreck into. I don't think you need to put signs and lights to cover it. The bridge/barrier, as a member who drives there puts it, is imposing in and of itself, and I imagine your eyes should be drawn to the top of the actual barrier where the height is printed in large letters right on it. Not lights hanging over it and blinding you at night from seeing it. Not little sheet metal sign next to it.

When you are not paying attention, you still will see it. You can ignore the 50 thousand signs you pass, zoned out, you can easily miss another sign. But if there is a naked lady walking on the of the road, I think you will notice.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 06:00:40 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #237 on: November 18, 2019, 01:45:51 am »
Sure, if they're looking.

Shall I repeat again? ::)

<snip>

No, no , no. If I'm cleaning my teeth and some sod lobs something at my head from the side I react*. I don't have to be actively looking, or even passively looking in the direction of the threat. There's some fundamental way that my brain is wired (inherited from my great5000father Ug who wasn't eaten by a tiger) that makes me process and bring my attention to possible immediate threats to my well being. What I'm suggesting is that if we can find a way to co-opt that instinct, then perhaps we can devise a mechanism for getting the attention of the inattentive.

* Yes, I did have those kind of flatmates at University.
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Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #238 on: November 18, 2019, 02:13:09 am »
Sorta like creating a realistic painting of a giant sinkhole in the road might get one's attention?

Quote
See, the fundamental problem is trying to approach the problem from your own perspective.  You don't DO these things,
No, Tim. This is your fundamental problem, and you have to speak for yourself. I and many others here have done most of these things. Eating (and shifting a manual) while steering with a knee. Shaving and brushing teeth. I have attempted watching videos while driving, holding the cell phone over the steering wheel; I can't do that. I can't text, either. I know I can't do these things, because I have attempted it, and I know I can't do it safely. :)

Anything you can do while keeping your eyes on the road and control over the wheel and brakes is pretty much possible, so long as you can keep attention to what is immediately needed. Sometimes it helps, on a long boring drive, vs not doing stupid stuff and just being so bored until you stop paying attention.
« Last Edit: November 18, 2019, 02:26:55 am by KL27x »
 

Offline Cerebus

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #239 on: November 18, 2019, 02:22:20 am »
Sorta like creating a realistic painting of a giant sinkhole in the road might get one's attention?

Yes, but I suspect that to fire the little cluster of neurons that say "It's gonna hit you!" or "Pouncing tiger! Bloody great pouncing tiger!" it would have to be dynamic in nature.

Quote
I and many others here have done most of these things. Eating while steering with a knee. Shaving and brushing teeth. I have attempted watching videos while driving, holding the cell phone over the steering wheel; I can't do that. I can't text, either. I know I can't do these things, because I have attempted it, and I know I can't do it safely. :)

Erm, any chance you could warn us next time you're tempted to try, so that we know where to steer clear of?  :)
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Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #240 on: November 18, 2019, 02:53:01 am »
Do you know what bugs me out? When my brother shows off his Tesla autodrive and locks eyes to ME for 5 seconds. That is scary to me.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #241 on: November 28, 2019, 06:16:20 am »
Well, that didn’t take long:

« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 06:18:16 am by tooki »
 
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Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #242 on: November 28, 2019, 06:29:21 am »
Well there you have it, just a pat on the head instead of a sardine can!  It's improving already ;D

Tim
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Offline KL27x

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #243 on: November 28, 2019, 06:50:51 am »
Do the signs on either side state the height as 12' - 4" in order to convey 11' 8"? Or is this a different bridge that is 12' 4"?

Comparing the videos, it looks the same. The signs used to state 11'-8" and they changed them to 12'-4". So what gives?

Did they increase the height or does the hyphen act as a minus sign, now? And does anyone else think that this would not be an improvement?  :-//

edit: looked up the comments on YT. Apparently they added 8" somehow.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 07:00:42 am by KL27x »
 

Offline T3sl4co1l

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #244 on: November 28, 2019, 07:00:58 am »
Check the proceeding pages. :)

Tim
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Offline Nusa

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #245 on: November 28, 2019, 08:58:11 am »
So close. That truck would have cleared if he'd been a foot to the right. There was room. But the sign is slightly conservative, so he was definitely overheight.
 

Offline drussell

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #246 on: November 28, 2019, 12:10:30 pm »
edit: looked up the comments on YT. Apparently they added 8" somehow.

As posted earlier in the thread, they recently raised the bridge deck 8":

https://youtu.be/YPt4ijPFzc8
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #247 on: November 28, 2019, 08:25:59 pm »

I sometimes tow a small trailer.  I caught myself once forgetting that the trailer was behind the car... with no serious consequences, but realizing something had to be done.

Nowadays, I have a wide red elastic band that goes on the rear view mirror whenever there is something unusual about the car (roof rack, small trailer,  stuff hanging out the back, etc.) and - knock on wood - it seems to work well...

Seems to me, the warning device needs to be in the vehicle.  Is it any harder than a GPS with a loud horn, that knows the location of all the low bridges?  Set the device for the height of the truck once, and bob's yer uncle...
 

Offline Marco

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #248 on: November 28, 2019, 10:05:42 pm »
If a tanker truck hits that wrong it will be a bigger problem than some traffic disruption ... they are rolling the dice, it should have been fundamentally redesigned long ago.

It seems unsolvable as is to a reasonable safety standard to me. Here in the Netherlands we have trucks driving into low tunnels regularly even though we have detection, electronic sign warning systems and passive rattle chains which hit high trucks ... which they still quite regularly manage to all ignore, not as often as here but often enough. That would be mostly solvable electronically, ultrasonic sound projectors. Should be able to stop all but deaf truck drivers.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2019, 10:12:54 pm by Marco »
 

Online SilverSolder

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Re: How would you use electronics to solve the 11' 8" bridge problem
« Reply #249 on: November 28, 2019, 10:43:06 pm »

The sign needs to be simpler.   Siren, flashing blue, red, white lights, and a big red blinking "STOP NOW - POLICE" sign.   
 


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