HP 181A vintage scope - shipping fail

[TerraHertz]

Today's tragic example of stupidly inadequate packing for shipment... A vintage HP 181A oscilloscope, with a smashed CRT.



Cause: A good solid box, good padding around the corner rack brackets, but on the top and bottom faces effectively zero padding. Just the box cardboard, a couple more sheets of very thin cardboard, and a couple of layers of that very thin soft sheeting - about 2mm thick. So nothing that could compress much to absorb an impact.

At some point the box has been dropped heavily flat on the ground. Very high-G sudden halt of the scope, and the tube shattered.

I'm furious with myself, because on seeing the pics of the box outside (sent by my reshipper in CA USA) I thought the box looked pretty strong and so I'd trust the packer. I had it onshipped without being opened for photos of the scope.
Result: no way to tell if it was smashed in the USA postal system, or by DHL on the way from CA to here in Sydney.

I kind of suspect the former, but it's not provable.  And without those photos the onshiping insurance is 'delivery only.'

Bah. I've been getting slack with having Shipito open stuff. Impatient... so this is a costly writeoff.

Now to see if I can find a replacement CRT. I doubt it.

[Stray Electron]

    What does it cost to get something like that shipped to your part of the world from the US?   I saw several of these at a hamfest in Florida a few weeks ago. I don't recall the price but I don't think that there was any interest in them and I do remember that one had a spectrum analyzer plug in in it.

  Do you know if the 181A uses the same CRT tube as any of HP's other gear?

[TerraHertz]

Just some broken glass.  The whole scope is full of little glass fragments. Shaking the frame, more just keep falling out.
The problem with that is they are metalized. So small shards stuck in amongst the electronics may have bad effects on power up.

I bet it made a loud implosion bang when it went. So whatever bozo dropped the box would have known about it.

Since it keeps shedding sharp little glass fragments, I can't work on it anywhere other than 'in a tub' - the original box. Tiny flakes of glass still make it out onto the floor, so it's concrete floor or nothing. Have to be able to sweep/vac them all up later. I have cats.


It's not often you see the inside of a storage CRT. There are two extremely fine meshes. They've been mangled by fragments of glass.


What really burns, is the box he used was orignally a good size for the scope. There would have been room for a couple of inches of soft padding under and over the scope.  But no, he cut down the box height. Sob.

[TerraHertz]

    What does it cost to get something like that shipped to your part of the world from the US?   I saw several of these at a hamfest in Florida a few weeks ago. I don't recall the price but I don't think that there was any interest in them and I do remember that one had a spectrum analyzer plug in in it.

  Do you know if the 181A uses the same CRT tube as any of HP's other gear?

Shipping cost, Torrance CA to Sydney Aus:


Something amusing in the HP 181A/AR manual - in the entire manual there is ONE page with an ink color besides black.
This:


Just so users will know the traces are green.

The tube HP part number is 5083-1952.   Seems it was only used in the 180 & 181 scopes.
I have found one for sale. New in box, and amazingly it's in Australia. But the seller wants too much for it. Still to be seen if he'll come down to something less than I paid for the scope. I suspect he's not into electronics and may have an inflated idea of the practical value.

Re lack of interest in old scopes - yes, who would be interested? They are a pain. I bought this one because I'll be setting up a 'retro room' with old computers (DEC PDP8/S, HP 1000, type of things) and I wanted a period scope for show.  But working!
Not taking it seriously was another reason I skipped the photos at the reshipper.

[Stray Electron]

  Good grief! THAT hurts! 

   I would think that any reshipper would automatically want to open and examine every package that they handle just to ensure that they wouldn't be blamed for damage that was incurred before they received the package and to ensure that it was adequately packed.

[Stray Electron]

  Yeah, that shipping box looks much too small for a rack mount scope. Especially for some thing as heavy as HP. Was there ANY padding in it? 

  I would NEVER ship a heavy instrument via the US Postal System. First, they're too expensive. Second, everything heavy that I've ever shipped with them has been damaged.  The USPS simply isn't equipped to deal with anything bigger than would fit into a mailbox or that you can carry in one hand.

[Ian.M]

[strawberry]

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[Cubdriver]

The stupid - it hurts!  WTF are people thinking when they pack something like this?!?  (Yeah, I know - they are incapable of thinking - fucking morons.    )  That poor CRT is well and truly destroyed. 

It infuriates me to see old gear ruined by blatant incompetence in performing an action that should be so simple.  Cushion and immobilize the instrument within a container a few inches larger than it is.  Why is this on par with rocket surgery to so many people WHO SELL SHIT THAT MUST BE SHIPPED AS PART OF THE PROCESS?  You had ONE JOB!!   
Fingers crossed you can find an acceptable replacement at a reasonable price.

-Pat

[TerraHertz]

  Yeah, that shipping box looks much too small for a rack mount scope. Especially for some thing as heavy as HP. Was there ANY padding in it? 

Padding at the sides and around the brackets - Poor but better than nothing.
Padding at front, rear and top and (fatally) bottom - virtually none.

Some more unpacking pics. This one:



Shows ALL the 'padding' that was underneath the scope. The outer box, a thin cardboad box flat (about 3mm) and a few layers of that very thin foam sheet (maybe another 3mm total.)
A miserably inadequate, stupid, incompetent job.

The seller's listing text said "The unit will be heavily protected to prevent any damage while in transit."
Also I'd asked them to pack extra safely for international shipping.
Every now and then I goof, and actually believe what people say, and forget that the word is full of idiots.

 

I would NEVER ship a heavy instrument via the US Postal System. First, they're too expensive. Second, everything heavy that I've ever shipped with them has been damaged.  The USPS simply isn't equipped to deal with anything bigger than would fit into a mailbox or that you can carry in one hand.

US shipping was with Fedex. Who in my experience are overpriced oafs. But with ebay sellers you get the shipping they choose.

The stupid - it hurts!  WTF are people thinking when they pack something like this?!?  (Yeah, I know - they are incapable of thinking - fucking morons.    )  That poor CRT is well and truly destroyed. 

It infuriates me to see old gear ruined by blatant incompetence in performing an action that should be so simple.  Cushion and immobilize the instrument within a container a few inches larger than it is.  Why is this on par with rocket surgery to so many people WHO SELL SHIT THAT MUST BE SHIPPED AS PART OF THE PROCESS?  You had ONE JOB!!   

This is about how I feel too. Except I'd add more profanity and assassinations by Ninjas.

Over the years I've been bringing stuff in from the USA I've seen some unbelievable incompetency. Stupidity no one would believe without seeing photos. For that reason long ago I started taking detailed unpacking photos. Result: I have a large collection of 'packing fails' (and success) pics. I haven't updated my NoBlog since mid 2020 (Wife passed away plus the unrelated but also depressing covid global insanity) but I'll start again soon. One I've started writing is 'packing parables.' Kind of a do's and don'ts of packing/shipping. It might be useful as an education for the packing-naive. The people who seem to not understand impact absorbtion, G-forces, etc.

Fingers crossed you can find an acceptable replacement at a reasonable price.

Sadly the Australian guy with a NIB one, thinks it's a hot item and will not budge on price. "The only one available!" etc. He's had it listed for several years. I think I'll hunt around a while. Vint-HP may turn up something.

One area of concern is that this tube has a very early kind of flexible PCB hanging off the front, serving as connections to the front meshes. I see in mine, that this flex-PCB is completely delaminating and falling apart. The tube would not have worked even if it was intact. Question is, maybe even a 'New in Box' one will have the same problem. It looks like some hack could work, but I'm not sure yet. It _might_ be that HP 181A scopes are hopeless cases by now. The manual was printed 1971.

[bdunham7]

About a third, maybe more, of the repairs I do are handling or shipping related.  Sometimes the scars are permanent, and in the worst case very valuable equipment is destroyed and unrepairable.   I just had a very expensive pressure calibrator turn out to be non-repairable because its fused-quartz bourdon tube--the heart of the system--had been damaged, presumably by some rough handling, after it suffered a relatively minor malfunction.  Even having things professionally packed and shipped by people who should know better frequently doesn't work.  That packing job is actually a bad joke--the thin foam sheets are pointless--but I've seen any number of surprisingly expensive items shipped using it.  The worst was four Fluke 8846A DMMs all shipped in the same flimsy box with ONE layer of that stuff taped around them. 

One thing though--scope CRTs are usually pretty safe when installed, especially in portables.  Since the scope isn't physically badly damaged, there must have been a very large impact or a latent defect to cause that implosion.

[TerraHertz]

  Good grief! THAT hurts! 

   I would think that any reshipper would automatically want to open and examine every package that they handle just to ensure that they wouldn't be blamed for damage that was incurred before they received the package and to ensure that it was adequately packed.

They do prefer to. With Shipito you can turn that default service off, and have it done only for parcels you select. Due to some uh, unfortunate experiences I've had with their 'open and photograph' service, I turned it off a while ago. I _should_ have had photos taken of this. But it takes them up to a few days to do it (they seem overworked) and sometimes their repack is not so great. So given the seller explicitly claimed he'd pack well, I skipped it. Worst shipping mistake I've made for a while. Entirely on me.

Oh, and "to ensure that it was adequately packed" - that's a joke. They can pack light small things fairly OK, but for big heavy things their understanding is about the same (hopeless) level as the seller of this scope. They simply can't do it. Don't have the necessary materials, solid boxes, or common sense.

A couple of things I had sent to them late last year were badly packed. In the end I had to get them sent outside to a foam-in-place packer. It worked out OK but overall a costly exercise. Shipito's 'process' totally can't handle that, so effectively I paid as if each parcel went through their system twice.

One thing though--scope CRTs are usually pretty safe when installed, especially in portables.  Since the scope isn't physically badly damaged, there must have been a very large impact or a latent defect to cause that implosion.

Yes, very high-G impact. I see other signs of it. A large electro cap displaced, a circuit board popped out of it's mountings, impacts of screw heads with the bottom outside cover, deforming it and making dents in the cardboard below.
I'd estimate it was dropped flat onto a floor, from a height of maybe two feet.
No sideways impacts, since there are no indents of the handles etc into the box walls.

[mansaxel]

I bought a 6206B from the US late 2020. Ad looked like this:

The thumbnail is the only pic left, borrowed from my purchase history. It did look grimy, but not mechanically unsound.



On arrival:



Also, a cooling fin on the rear was cracked, and while not visible on this pic, the meter selector switch assembly (V/A/range) was pushed in and separated.

I bought and fitted a new mains switch, swapped the sad power cable out, cleaned the unit up, carefully pressed the rotary switch together, rebuilt the bezel/holder assembly for the meter, and converted it to Real Mains.  It required no component repairs beyond this, and is now my to-go supply on the bench.

Also, it was Ebay GSP, so I got a refund for everything except the shipping from seller to Kentucky. Sometimes, one gets lucky. 

[TerraHertz]

I bought a 6206B from the US late 2020. Ad looked like this:

The thumbnail is the only pic left, borrowed from my purchase history. It did look grimy, but not mechanically unsound.

At the time you buy ebay items, ALWAYS save all seller full size photos in a folder for that thing. I do this even for things like manuals (usually), not just equipment (always.)  So I end up with pics_ebay, pics_reshipper, and pics_arrived in each item's folder. You'd be surprised how often this is very useful. Even a long time later.

I bought and fitted a new mains switch, swapped the sad power cable out, cleaned the unit up, carefully pressed the rotary switch together, rebuilt the bezel/holder assembly for the meter, and converted it to Real Mains.  It required no component repairs beyond this, and is now my to-go supply on the bench.

So basically, the main problem was the meter retainer clip broke, letting the meter loose inside the case?
But this is a generic problem with ALL those style HP meters. The bezel clips break off, because there is too much stress on them. Culprits are 4 small metal springs. They fit in holes in the front face of the meter casing that are behind the metal panel. They push the meter back against the bezel clips. But the springs are way too strong. The solution, to apply to ALL those meters before they break, is to unclip, remove the springs, use rough old side cutters to clip off one turn of the springs then reassemble.

[mansaxel]

So basically, the main problem was the meter retainer clip broke, letting the meter loose inside the case?

No, actually, the meter assembly came back together quite easily. The major issue was the rotary switch, until I'd figured out a way to disassemble it and use the workshop press to squeeze it together.

But this is a generic problem with ALL those style HP meters. The bezel clips break off, because there is too much stress on them. Culprits are 4 small metal springs. They fit in holes in the front face of the meter casing that are behind the metal panel. They push the meter back against the bezel clips. But the springs are way too strong. The solution, to apply to ALL those meters before they break, is to unclip, remove the springs, use rough old side cutters to clip off one turn of the springs then reassemble.

Useful advice, thanks!

[TerraHertz]

For completeness.



This is going in the hallway display case. Now I know what 'flood guns' actually look like.

The worry I had about the delaminating '1971 flexible pcb' attached to the CRT, won't be a problem. Easy to improvise a replacement if needed on a new (old) CRT since it's just soldered to the three leads from inside the front of the CRT.






One of the traces had apparently failed in the past, and someone had bypassed it with a bit of wire that is definitely cut out of an old rubber-insulated mains cord.

And now, from the Twilight Zone...
The scope is still spitting out small shards of glass when I give it a shaking. Today, during one of those shakes this fell out.



WTF? It's totally not from the scope. I'm pretty sure ICs like this did not exist when the scope was built circa 1971. HOW did it get in there? I've seen small 'drop-ins' inside stuff before. Bits of clipped wire, small components, etc.
The scope has been worked on in the past - that wire, a small shield plate missing, etc.
But in what kind of work environment does some 24 pin IC (a ROM?) get dropped into an open old scope?

Anyone recognize the HP part number?

[ebastler]

Seems like a 24-pin DIP IC "5081-3018" is used as the control IC in the 1805A vertical amplifier:
http://hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-1805A-Manual.pdf

Edit: Two of them, actually, one per channel. Shake some more and you should find the other one! 
See the parts list (page 38 in the PDF) and the schematic (page 62).

[rsjsouza]

  Yeah, that shipping box looks much too small for a rack mount scope. Especially for some thing as heavy as HP. Was there ANY padding in it? 

Padding at the sides and around the brackets - Poor but better than nothing.
Padding at front, rear and top and (fatally) bottom - virtually none.

Some more unpacking pics. This one:

It is indeed unfortunate your situation; I can see how leaving the front handles unpadded would easily transfer any mechanical impact to the frame and consequently to the more fragile parts of the equipment. I hope you get a good replacement CRT.

The worry I had about the delaminating '1971 flexible pcb' attached to the CRT, won't be a problem. Easy to improvise a replacement if needed on a new (old) CRT since it's just soldered to the three leads from inside the front of the CRT.

Interesting you mentioned that. A related discussion.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/old-hp-181a-storage-scope-repair/

[TerraHertz]

Seems like a 24-pin DIP IC "5081-3018" is used as the control IC in the 1805A vertical amplifier:
http://hparchive.com/Manuals/HP-1805A-Manual.pdf

Edit: Two of them, actually, one per channel. Shake some more and you should find the other one! 
See the parts list (page 38 in the PDF) and the schematic (page 62).

Thanks!
The 181AR scope contains not one single IC, just transistors.
Dealing with the smashed CRT, I took out the plugins and stashed in a cupboard. I have the plugin manuals but hadn't looked at them yet. One is an 1805A (as you knew.) With their covers on the plugins looked about the same vintage as the scope.

But no, this 1805A was made in 1978. It has very few ICs but two of those 24 pin analog things.



You can just see the remaining white ceramic IC in the pic above.



One present, one AWOL. This is looking at the bottom of the module. That the impact could knock one of these out of the socket...



The loose one back in place. It's quite hard to get all the pins in those tiny sockets.



Looking at the module, more bad news. One of the push switches has a broken shaft.
Also one of the V/div selectors turns freely. No detents.



Date codes on ICs. This plugin was made in 1978 or later. Hence the ICs.

Not much more I can do on this scope until I find a CRT. When I continue I'll start a new thread in Repairs.

[TerraHertz]

I can see how leaving the front handles unpadded would easily transfer any mechanical impact to the frame and consequently to the more fragile parts of the equipment.

No no. The scope was lying flat in the box, and the box was dropped flat. Front handles and rack brackets did have some folded cardboard padding (not much) but that wasn't involved.
In that photo I'd lifted the scope up and sat it on its rear, just to show how little padding lay under it.

Interesting you mentioned that. A related discussion.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/old-hp-181a-storage-scope-repair/

Ha. Yep it just disintegrates. Also possibly this one had arced in the past, hence previous repairer cuting away part of it. Burned? Bodgy design, bodgy repair.

[Alex Eisenhut]

Horrible packaging. I had the same thing happen to a Commodore 1551 disk drive shipped from Germany to Canada. These drives are well known in the community to be very fragile because the plastic is brittle for unknown reasons. The seller assured me they knew that and will pack it correctly.
Of course he didn't and the drive arrived in the same condition as your unfortunate scope.

Oh and that kind of IC packaging is from the 1960s.

http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/sharp_qt-8d.html

Captain Pedantic, out

[TerraHertz]

Edavid, I received your PM, thanks for the offer. But when replying I get "User 'edavid' has blocked your personal message."
Do you have all PM's blocked?

I'll be afk for the next day.

Oh and that kind of IC packaging is from the 1960s.
http://www.vintagecalculators.com/html/sharp_qt-8d.html

Just barely, if I'm getting dates right from a skim-read. They got production working in Dec 1969?  The VERY FIRST commercial application of MOS chips in a calculator? So I'm not surprised HP wasn't using ICs in their 1971  181A scope, and began using those 24 pin things sometime quite a bit later in the 70s.

[m k]

I got a Fluke 8505A from CA and what was left from its bottom legs were peeking out.
The box was a normal thickness cardboard and no stuffing.
Luckily the device is otherwise like a tank, excluding old plastic.

ebay has still couple replacements and Peaker Pattinson is selling cases, lots of.
So all you need is a friend in London and some more cash.
(the USA replacement is in Vegas)

I guess you should just sell those plugins and start over.

[andy2000]

I have zero tolerance for bad packing.  I would file a request with the ebay seller.  He may offer a partial, or full refund.  I know the international shipping complicates things, but that wasn't packed well enough to survive a trip to the next town.  If ebay fails to help, then I would do a credit card charge back.  You'll still be out the international shipping cost, but at least you'll get some money back, and send a message to the seller.

[Ian.M]

See https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/how-do-people-pack-delicate-instruments-properly/ for a discussion of what's 'good practice' for packing.