Author Topic: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain  (Read 4854 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2020, 12:49:24 pm »
What I find funny, is "By 2027".
So they can potentially listen in for the next 7 years. Great!  :-DD

That is clearly business talk and strategy, nothing about political.

As the US's most remote 51th "state", the UK country state of UK is just buying time with that excuse, as once DT is gone, this pressure is gone too.

That makes sense. The thing doesn't really seem to come into effect, until December 31st 2020 (first deadline, when future purchases are prohibited). I.e. AFTER the November Trump possible second term elections. So if he loses, and the pressure disappears, things could get interesting.


It would be interesting, to know the full (secret) picture, with all the juicy details.
China seem to be especially angry about this, which makes me wonder why.
I.e. No smoke without fire, or No big noise, without something bigger to this story, as regards China.

China/Huawei just losing sales of some 5G equipment, shouldn't really bother China that much, I would have thought. Why all the fuss ?

They've invested a huge amount of effort and money into an attempt to build a monopoly. It's not 'some' we're talking about here, it's supplying infrastructure on a global scale.

Thanks. I understanding it better now (yours and other posts about it).

So, in reality, this 5G thing is expected to mushroom into a huge business/money making entity, and it is at a relatively early stage in its development. So, China want to muscle in on this massive 5G thing.
Hence, losing early business to the UK, could badly damage their reputation, and mean they lose early market share, and hence the (5G) battle, in the market place.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2020, 12:53:27 pm »
Infrastructure equipment is expensive, bought rarely and extremely expensive to develop given the numbers. I expect every sale is worth fighting for when the numbers are relatively low.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Online MK14

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4987
  • Country: gb
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2020, 01:03:41 pm »
Infrastructure equipment is expensive, bought rarely and extremely expensive to develop given the numbers. I expect every sale is worth fighting for when the numbers are relatively low.

Also, presumably, at some level. It may connect through (directly or indirectly), to the massive mobile/cell phone market place. Potentially allowing Huawei/China to have (more/sooner) advanced knowledge, about upcoming 5G things.
Which could allow them (Huawei) to much more significantly be a major player, in the mobile devices market place.

I.e. They may be able to know 5G things, before Apple/Samsung etc, giving them a significant market place lead/advantage. As these massive technological developments, take time. First to market, is often what makes companies win, over other competitors.
 

Offline duckduck

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 420
  • Country: us
  • 20Hz < fun < 20kHz, and RF is Really Fun
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2020, 01:48:10 pm »
You can't have 4 countries sharing national intelligence securely and then have the 5th one relaying such information "in the clear", so to speak.
and that encryption can be using a custom algorithm, rather than standard AES, making it harder to hack than the infrastructure-level encryption.

AES is stil secure. Cryptographers fear "custom" and new algorithms since they have not been put to the test. Designing a new algorithm that is both secure and also efficient on common CPUs is fraught with traps for young players. This is like someone claiming to have invented a method of amplifing electrical signals with better fidelity, power efficiency, reliability, and price effctiveness than a modern op-amp. All EEs would be skeptical.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2020, 01:49:24 pm »
Well my understanding is that 5G does not actually do anything to the mobile phones, it's about mast cannectivity so it does not directly impact on making handsets.
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline peter-h

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4355
  • Country: gb
  • Doing electronics since the 1960s...
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #30 on: July 16, 2020, 01:58:22 pm »
According to the UK GCHQ the Huawei products are fundamentally insecure, due to buggy software.

They don't need back doors. They have front doors :)

All Chinese kit is buggy as hell. Huawei is of similar quality to Draytek which is the top of Chinese stuff and yet whole sections in the functionality just don't work. I've been using these boxes for 10-15 years.

So why did the UK networks install this stuff? Because it's cheap. Cisco kit is 10x the price, the cheap Cisco kit is junk (rebadged Chinese boxes) and the judgement is made that if the box does its job it is OK. Most data flowing over the cellular networks is encrypted (https) so everybody is happy... except that traffic analysis is still possible and very useful to a State-level enemy.

One doesn't need to worry about Chinese snooping on the traffic. They probably aren't, routinely, because it would have been discovered by now, in scenarios where somebody is having to debug something and is monitoring packets. These things have been discovered many times in the past e.g. PC or phone software sending data back to the Church of Apple or Google. But the Chinese probably can, and very likely can remotely shut the boxes down so they need a physical reboot (power cycle) but then the packet used to shut them down can be re-sent. I have a Draytek 2955 router which reboots several times a day, upon receiving some funny packet. I also used to have a Nokia 808 phone which (this was well known) would be locked-up by a rare 3G/HSPA packet (the fix was to disable HSPA). So plenty of examples.

It is a pity the UK installed this garbage in the first place but the networks are private companies and when spending millions, the cost is important.

Also we don't need 5G anyway. The UK doesn't even have a decent 4G coverage; most of the countryside doesn't have it. What is 5G actually needed for? The stuff coming out of China now about "bad news for all UK mobile phone owners" is totally disingenuous trash.
Z80 Z180 Z280 Z8 S8 8031 8051 H8/300 H8/500 80x86 90S1200 32F417
 
The following users thanked this post: MK14

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #31 on: July 16, 2020, 02:03:57 pm »
The problem is that companies only look at the bottom line and keeping share holders happy and if buying cheap does not keep the share price up they will resort to fiddling the books. After all standards like those granted under a CE mark exist simply to protect the consumer from too much bottom line watching.

Clear example, Grenfel tower has substandard panels installed that were not fire proof, how much did they save? a mere £5k which was relatively small money to the cost of the project but that was £5K in the refurbishes pocket.
 

Online 2N3055

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7462
  • Country: hr
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #32 on: July 16, 2020, 02:07:32 pm »
USA's biggest problem is not Chinese spying, but the fact that THEY ARE NOT.
Only vendors so far caught with spyware were Cisco (with NSA spyware loaded) shipped to Russia....
They figured Russians are stupid and that they won't check..

How else will they spy on Angela Merkel if they don't control the network...?
"Just hard work is not enough - it must be applied sensibly."
Dr. Richard W. Hamming
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #33 on: July 16, 2020, 02:23:35 pm »
Both sides have been playing that game for years. Remember the Gift given to a US president by Russian school children that was a very clever radio transmitter with no actual electronic components,
 

Offline peter-h

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 4355
  • Country: gb
  • Doing electronics since the 1960s...
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #34 on: July 16, 2020, 02:28:03 pm »
But who cares if the US can monitor the traffic? There is no conceivable scenario where the US will be our enemy, in the military sense.

Every country with signals monitoring capability (most modern countries) is monitoring everybody else's traffic. Well, there is a treaty (UKUSA?) blocking those two doing it to each other but who would be quite sure?

What we really do not want is China being able to remotely shut stuff down.

Also developing these boxes is not rocket science. It all starts with a copy of Linux, a load of open source software, and some purpose written stuff.
Z80 Z180 Z280 Z8 S8 8031 8051 H8/300 H8/500 80x86 90S1200 32F417
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #35 on: July 16, 2020, 02:41:07 pm »
Basically you only get a full sense of security if you make your own stuff. But governments change too often to enact such a long lasting policy. This would have benefits in that it employs people and builds local skills and gives a government real control over it's infrastructure. But of course in todays world of privatization that means that multinational corporations need to actually do as they are told rather than tell the government their demands which seems to be more the case these days.
 

Offline Simon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 18118
  • Country: gb
  • Did that just blow up? No? might work after all !!
    • Simon's Electronics
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #36 on: July 16, 2020, 02:56:22 pm »
rebellious colony you mean  :-DD
 

Offline Bassman59

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2501
  • Country: us
  • Yes, I do this for a living
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #37 on: July 16, 2020, 04:39:00 pm »
Also we don't need 5G anyway.

This is the crux of this biscuit!

What purpose is served by having a 5G handset/smartphone?

What large payloads will you download to a smartphone that need "Speed" -- and where will those files be stored?

Web page "speed" is likely a function of server-side capability and internet routing. Existing standards are already sufficiently fast for HD and 4k video, and seriously, watching video on your phone is silly. Sure, you could use a smartphone as a hot-spot, but then you're depending on the phone for its WiFi and routing capabilities, and the phones aren't optimized for that.

It seems as if 5G is really a replacement for incumbent internet services -- cable, DSL, FIOS. The customer (home, business) has a 5G modem on site that attaches to a standard router and WiFi hot-spot.
 
The following users thanked this post: Cyberdragon

Offline Cyberdragon

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2676
  • Country: us
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #38 on: July 16, 2020, 04:52:56 pm »
Also we don't need 5G anyway.

This is the crux of this biscuit!

What purpose is served by having a 5G handset/smartphone?

What large payloads will you download to a smartphone that need "Speed" -- and where will those files be stored?

Web page "speed" is likely a function of server-side capability and internet routing. Existing standards are already sufficiently fast for HD and 4k video, and seriously, watching video on your phone is silly. Sure, you could use a smartphone as a hot-spot, but then you're depending on the phone for its WiFi and routing capabilities, and the phones aren't optimized for that.

It seems as if 5G is really a replacement for incumbent internet services -- cable, DSL, FIOS. The customer (home, business) has a 5G modem on site that attaches to a standard router and WiFi hot-spot.

It's also short range and LOS, so only effective in urban areas. Remote areas will still be served by 4G.
*BZZZZZZAAAAAP*
Voltamort strikes again!
Explodingus - someone who frequently causes accidental explosions
 

Offline Monkeh

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8134
  • Country: gb
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #39 on: July 16, 2020, 04:57:42 pm »
It's also short range and LOS, so only effective in urban areas. Remote areas will still be served by 4G.

This is not the case. 5G includes both mm-wave (short range, LOS, extremely high bandwidth) and traditional (~700MHz-6GHz) technologies and is fully intended to be able to deploy standalone with no 4G services.
 
The following users thanked this post: newbrain

Offline TimFox

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8995
  • Country: us
  • Retired, now restoring antique test equipment
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #40 on: July 16, 2020, 05:27:20 pm »
Both sides have been playing that game for years. Remember the Gift given to a US president by Russian school children that was a very clever radio transmitter with no actual electronic components,
I believe that monitoring device was totally passive, a microwave resonant cavity with an acoustic diaphragm on one face.  I read that it was invented by L Terman, the inventor of the Theremin.  A remote transmitter and receiver detected the phase modulation.  I am just old enough to remember the US ambassador to the UN showing the wood carving of the Great Seal to the General Assembly as an excuse for the U2 incident.
 

Offline SeanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 16385
  • Country: za
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #41 on: July 16, 2020, 06:44:29 pm »
Funny enough Huawei kit is pretty much the backbone of all cellular and wireless technology here in South Africa, from the cellphone batteries, to the actual base stations, to the antenna arrays that are connected to them. Also the most popular manufacturer of LTE routers, and I am using one, which is pretty solid as far as uptime and throughput, more losses due to the carriers losing connections due to power loss than anything else. I would have ot regularly restart it, because the mobile antenna it was connected to would lose it's backhaul, leaving the system in a locked state, and you could either reboot the router and thus get a reconnect when power was returned, or log in and turn off the WAN side, wait 30 seconds and turn it back on, getting the same result.

Power switch was faster though, and I should log in sometime and see just how many junk SMS's are in memory, because this device does have a valid mobile SIM number associated with it, and has VOIP POTS interface as well, though it is not set up, no real need to have another phone number, as I cut the landline cord last year. Will get a random one from an online seller if I need a number for some reason,
 

Offline Domagoj T

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 505
  • Country: hr
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #42 on: July 16, 2020, 07:26:50 pm »
Presumably no one is going to transmit clear text intelligence over the Internet.

I would assume that everybody in the business of intelligence would presume that all sensitive communication (or even literally all) can be (and is) intercepted, so if you don't want third party to know what you're chattering about, you absolutely have to encrypt. Not doing so is just dumb. So if your device is already encrypting everything, it should not matter if somebody has access to your router.
In any case, I see all this as overreacting, while at the same time ignoring the glaring spyware that is Windows, Android, Facebook et al.
 

Offline floobydust

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7676
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #43 on: July 16, 2020, 07:42:13 pm »
Basically you only get a full sense of security if you make your own stuff. But governments change too often to enact such a long lasting policy. This would have benefits in that it employs people and builds local skills and gives a government real control over it's infrastructure. But of course in todays world of privatization that means that multinational corporations need to actually do as they are told rather than tell the government their demands which seems to be more the case these days.

Nortel was a huge loss for Canada with their hacking by the chinese military coinciding with huawei having access to the servers, sunk them.
china's IP theft and corporate espionage has wiped out many competitors that need to exist for security and economic prosperity.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-07-01/did-china-steal-canada-s-edge-in-5g-from-nortel?srnd=premium-canada
https://www.cbc.ca/news/business/nortel-collapse-linked-to-chinese-hackers-1.1260591
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #44 on: July 16, 2020, 10:04:27 pm »
One interesting part of this saga is that the UK intelligence community has specifically said that the risks around Huawei are "manageable".  But who listens to experts nowadays, anyway?  :D

It seems to me that this entire incident is all about what happens when a rising superpower (China) begins to look like a problem to an established superpower (USA), so the UK was forced to choose a side even though it is obviously more beneficial to the UK to play nice with both sides.   Smaller countries basically have to be "flexible" when the big boys are fighting!  :D
 

Offline VK3DRB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2272
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #45 on: July 17, 2020, 11:56:51 am »
China and US are both trying to collect neutral countries..
..{Shortened}

Hopefully things will get peaceful, as time goes on, between China and the US. Trump may not be around (in power), after the November election.

Otherwise there could be big supply issues as regards Electronic/computer stuff (along with the other huge range of items, that China is involved with).

Already we are experiencing some serious supply problems, both with components and personal computer parts. But you are right, the worst for us that can come out of this is the electronics industry is affected because China does so much manufacturing. A graceful, gradual and controlled exit out of China by western countries is the best solution so that supply will continue. Trump will likely return because most Christians in the US will vote to see their great President returned to "continue the work of God here on earth". If he does not return, they will likely keep a low profile over their lack of discernment and wisdom, or come up with feeble excuses. But if he returns don't expect peace - just more divisiveness, more COVID-19 deaths and more stupidity - none of which is good for the electronics industry.

November will be an interesting month.
 

Offline SilverSolder

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6126
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #46 on: July 17, 2020, 01:45:06 pm »
China and US are both trying to collect neutral countries..
..{Shortened}

Hopefully things will get peaceful, as time goes on, between China and the US. Trump may not be around (in power), after the November election.

Otherwise there could be big supply issues as regards Electronic/computer stuff (along with the other huge range of items, that China is involved with).

Already we are experiencing some serious supply problems, both with components and personal computer parts. But you are right, the worst for us that can come out of this is the electronics industry is affected because China does so much manufacturing. A graceful, gradual and controlled exit out of China by western countries is the best solution so that supply will continue. Trump will likely return because most Christians in the US will vote to see their great President returned to "continue the work of God here on earth". If he does not return, they will likely keep a low profile over their lack of discernment and wisdom, or come up with feeble excuses. But if he returns don't expect peace - just more divisiveness, more COVID-19 deaths and more stupidity - none of which is good for the electronics industry.

November will be an interesting month.

"A graceful, gradual and controlled exit out of China by western countries is the best solution"  -  to what problem?

VW just announced today that they are stepping up the production of electric vehicles in China.  To my mind, that demonstrates how professionals deal with China:   by participating in their high growth economy, so pension funds and other VW shareholders benefit - all of us, in Western countries, in other words.

Those that leave China and slam the door in her face are simply creating more opportunities for smarter mammals elsewhere, while creating disadvantages for themselves for no gain.  It seems totally sub-optimal to me.

 

Offline bsfeechannel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #47 on: July 17, 2020, 07:56:32 pm »
China happens to be the country which benefited from US's jump starting and doesn't want to keep exporting interest to the US.

The moment you realize that the West didn't kill your father. The West IS your father.



 
The following users thanked this post: Simon

Offline Halcyon

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 6120
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei 5G now banned in Britain
« Reply #48 on: July 18, 2020, 04:56:15 am »
And that's enough of this thread. Locked.
 
The following users thanked this post: EEVblog, Bassman59, ebastler, 0culus


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf