Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 43208 times)

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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #225 on: December 19, 2018, 06:21:56 am »
I think  BravoV this has little to do with anyone being Chinese it has everything to do with Huawei not being a USA owned company therefore bad evil and most of all another easy meal for Trump and Co. This is not China vs the World this is political BS from the US for ideological and political points at home.

Those of us with written alliances and pacts of various sorts with the USA as legal agreements we are obliged to commit to some things at times that are not always in our best interests.

To call us as a nation US puppy's is quite frankly just wrong and pissy at best. We have the right to voice our opinions of dissent to our government or in public and boot their asses to the curb if they upset us to much unlike the Chinese Totalitarian State! Our current Federal mob is on shakey ground already (not intending to start a debate on this just a numerical fact).

The USA's protectionist model does no country any favours including their own and the increases to it under Trump are playing to his selected home audience at the expense of their countries finances.

So please stop towing your parties own line of BS and look at why it is being done rather than playing the butt hurt card.
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #226 on: December 19, 2018, 06:45:34 am »
You are wrong Economically the USA is number three on our list behind China and Japan. https://dfat.gov.au/trade/resources/trade-at-a-glance/pages/default.aspx

Militarily we and politically we have agreements with a lot of countries including China and the USA and fairly much all countries in the world to use the word Puppies in diminutive of all of those relationships and no more than a generalist put down.

Democracy is not perfect as I have stated a lot previously in this thread but what it grants us is the right to try and improve it. The Chinese people are run over by tanks when they try or dissapeared. This is no more than the lesser of two evils and both fall short.

I like this guys take on China generally and have watched his stuff for a while, he lives there for a chunk of the year has a Chinese wife and is a Canadian. Well worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/4wLBaDiZtP8
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #227 on: December 19, 2018, 02:50:20 pm »
When China puts a dissident under house arrest not only can they not leave their house, nobody can visit them either. And I think the rest of their family is also in a state of quarantine.

And they literally have police camped outside on the doorstep.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 05:01:34 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #228 on: December 19, 2018, 06:57:53 pm »
It is better than putting them in jail, thats true.

No, I don't have any "evidence" besides my impression from reading their stories.

I get your point, its a complicated moral situation.

The world deserves better than all this.

« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 07:01:56 pm by cdev »
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Online IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #229 on: December 19, 2018, 09:10:54 pm »
Cdev,

Extrapolate the living conditions in present day USA to a country with a population which is five times larger living in the same space.
 
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #230 on: December 19, 2018, 09:42:21 pm »
You're right, I'm unlikely to ever understand fully what it must be like.

Nor am I able to understand the issues driving US government policy, either. But, as somebody who believes in democracy and especially in the essential nature of a public sphere and discussion and government of by and for the people (not just my own) I think that both Chinese and we Americans as well as people in all of the other countries in the world all deserve far better than what we're getting now from both governments and industries, who have gone to great lengths to hijack where we're all going into a totally wrong direction.

I don't buy into the highly mobile global capital demanding more and more argument, even if it is true, thats what governments job is to do to say no.

I am for a race to the top not a race to the bottom.


« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:06:11 pm by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #231 on: December 19, 2018, 09:56:21 pm »
I'm glad you brought that up though, because it needed to be said.

But nor does the existence of these hotbeds of poverty justify the elimination of the positive things that have happened elsewhere. Nor does it justify the continuation of conditions of absolute insane inequality where people cant even afford to send their children to school.

Cdev,

Extrapolate the living conditions in present day USA to a country with a population which is five times larger living in the same space.

Everybody deserves to live better.

We should make our goal being a planet where everybody lives well and nobody lives an hyperconsumption lifestyle or makes hundreds of times more than what a typical worker makes.

 And nobody should have to live in near starvation conditions, or watch their child die or go blind, because they cant afford a common medicine, especially not in countries that have advanced science or space programs or a huge number of wealthy people like the US, China or India.

Nobody should be forced to put up with conditions that cause cancer or other toxic chemical related conditions.

The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.
« Last Edit: December 19, 2018, 10:11:17 pm by cdev »
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Online IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #232 on: December 19, 2018, 10:08:23 pm »
Ah.. to live in a perfect world.... where everybody works as much as they can and has as much as they need...
 A phrase often mentioned by my father.. who had heard it from his father... who had heard it during the October revolution...
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #233 on: December 19, 2018, 10:46:40 pm »
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.

Yes that's why you have revolutions and wars. The only problem is, you have bloodshed, people die, more aggressive elements come into power and then want to consolidate it and tend to corrupt the final result as they wish to stay in power. People exploit other people, it has been happening throughout history, and today is no different. There are few "benevolent patriarchs/matriarchs" who really truly lead the people with unselfish motivation and full respect of the population and step down when their time is due, giving themselves and their all to the end. History is much more rife with power-hungry leaders and politics in a way selects for this trait. When it comes to revolutions and wars, I would say it is even more so. But even in cases where the population and leaders truly believed in the "cause" initially (typically social justice movements, socialism, communism, etc)... once the system is established, human nature degenerates it again into a corrupt system where those in power misappropriate funds, try to posture themselves and give advantages to their inner circle. You will be hard-pressed to find too many "G-d" fearing or upstandingly moral individuals who always tell the truth and are unselfishly helping their fellow humans.

The system of democracy we have today, especially in the US, seems to put huge power in the hands of a few elitists, corporations, campaign contributors (PAC's) and so on.... to influence voters and elections and policies in their favor, especially after people are elected, all sorts of laws and rules and regulations are passed to benefit them (payback). Transparency, oversight and rules have tried to reduce this and people are more aware of it, so the system... while not perfect... is at least aware of issues and the population can work to improve things. I think the media and free speech is essential to this, as is the right to gather, protest and collectively organize. You could argue that in the US, the right to bear arms also is a major factor. One of the first things a dictatorship does is stop communication, isolate people and suppress them, create mistrust between neighbours, punish anyone who resists or voices dissent, reduces their ability to fight, spreads rumors, obfuscates the truth. The "organized chaos" that is a typical democracy is much preferable to the "oiled production machine" of a dictatorship or uniform society. One elevates the individual and brings out the best in people and rewards them, the other drives them into submission and fear. We don't need to debate this, history has shown us already what systems people prefer to be in. Don't confuse the fact that despotic regimes still exist with the idea that they work... No, they persist due to an iron fist and given the chance, the population would revolt. Unfortunately if most citizens are born inside a prison, live in the prison their whole life, and never see outside that prison, never learn about any others (or are fed propaganda about how their system is superior than all others) they will be brain-washed and compliant and stick to the party line until the day they die.
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Online coppice

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #234 on: December 19, 2018, 11:10:32 pm »
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.
"Some else should fix it" always ends well.  :)
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #235 on: December 19, 2018, 11:24:53 pm »
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.

The system of democracy totalitarian communist state we have today, especially in the US China , seems to put huge power in the hands of a few elitists, corporations, campaign contributors (PAC's) and so on.... to influence ......

See not very far removed at all. Just some food for thought keep your minds and hearts open but be wary of BS, hypocrisy and propaganda.
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Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #236 on: December 19, 2018, 11:59:32 pm »
A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.

The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
??? Human rights gives citizens a minimum of protection from the state. It says the state (and anyone else) isn't allowed to murder me, torture me or turn me into a slave. I prefer to keep my human rights thank you. Your definition of cult is strange.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #237 on: December 20, 2018, 12:05:44 am »
I'm not sure how insisting the law is absolute and calling human rights go together. Human rights are legal rights and therefore law too.
 

Online iMo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #238 on: December 20, 2018, 01:04:53 am »
After having a lot of fun, here is an interesting technical comparison of network infrastructure components of Huawei, Ericsson, Nokia.
Interestingly, the Huawei boxes are full of Xilinxes, Alteras, ADs, TIs, NXPs, MAXIMs, etc. Try to purchase the chips in larger quantities without confirming the base stations will not be sold to certain entities.







« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:07:19 am by imo »
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #239 on: December 20, 2018, 01:13:07 am »
Quote
article 4 protects ethnicity and belief freedom.
but you cant really because
Quote
citizens who are not the enemy of the state and its idealism
combined with members of the communist party being as wealthy as all get out. You have a basic conflict maximising the power of the state over its population whenever it wants to signed off as LAW.

And there lies the fundamental hypocrisy of the Chinese government it is not a communist one in any traditional sense of the word it is about control by a select few over all and is Totalitarianism. Australia with our social programs and support for those in need is more communist than China.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #240 on: December 20, 2018, 01:15:37 am »
According to Chinese constitution, the existence of communist party goes first.

Human right terms in Chinese constitution go from article 33 to article 40. Articles 13 and 16~18 protect property ownership, and article 4 protects ethnicity and belief freedom.
However, literally the very first clause defines communism being China's fundamental society system and Chinese Communist Party being the most intrinsic feature.
Any organisation or person shall not sabotage the leadership of communist party.

Also, all rights given to the people aren't essentially given to the citizens. In China, all people are citizen, but not all citizens are people.
People is defined as citizens who are not the enemy of the state and its idealism.
In other words, if you propose anti-communism, you violate article 1 of Chinese constitute, hence you are not given certain rights as people.

Being citizen you have certain rights, regardless being people or not. Despite having the rights, you are not given any power to practice them.
How is that less hypocritical than the west you like to regularly qualify as such here? That's just deciding that as a government you're number one and that you can decide on a whim who has rights. I'm not saying western governments are never inconsistent, but they do seem to be more consistent than "whatever we feel like". Not to mention that lumping the west together like that isn't likely to be very accurate.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #241 on: December 20, 2018, 01:47:25 am »
We (western countries) have done something similar with capitalism. Under the free market system money is free speech. Money talks, literally. It is protected free speech.

If you propose some change that will make you twenty million dollars and I have another idea of what to do that I can claim will make five hundred (million dollars) chances are I will win if its plausible.

People can vote for anything that is capitalism. This emerged out of the post WWII economic order because of Bretton Woods and the desire for a means of preventing the unpredictability of democracy and national politics from impacting investments.

See How to understand policy trilemmas | World Economic Forum
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/04/how-to-understand-policy-trilemmas/

In the US its enforced by treaties, such as the one described below, that preempt state laws that represent inconsistencies with certain treaties, which ensure the rights of international investment remain consistent.

Basically everything that was done during and after the New Deal era is off the table, and the parts of it which remain are being gradually phased out. They're framed as trade barriers..

See Jeffry C. Clark, The United States Proposal for a General Agreement on Trade in Services and its Preemption of Inconsistent State Law,

https://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1532&context=iclr

Deregulation is mandated by these treaties. It has to be one way, pretty much.

Otherwise people would just vote for things they wanted, and corporations would have to buy expensive all risk insurance like they used to.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 01:54:27 am by cdev »
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Online IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #242 on: December 20, 2018, 01:50:57 am »
"We are ready to govern....

We have a spending plan for 6.6 bilion dollars..."

Bill Shorten's words somewhat paraphrased
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #243 on: December 20, 2018, 02:02:18 am »
Chinese government is unfair, that's true. But it didn't try to hide it.
Literally in the constitution is says the power belongs to the people, practiced through the representatives of the people, which are elected by lower level of people's representatives recursively.
Due to the human nature of clinging onto power, the higher level the election goes, the higher level of elitism it is.
In other words, power of China as a country is practiced by the elites. The constitution never tried to hide that.

China has a fairly loose political principle among dictator countries. In China, the law allows you to say anything, as long as you don't suggest acts and you don't invade other people's freedom, such as doxing people.
Similarly, even if you said something that suggests acts that damages Chinese communist party's fundamental interests, you are just asked to shut up.
Many Chinese people looking for immigration to the west use this trick. Conduct anti-communism, get a few month of sentence, maybe even carried out out of jail, then get political asylum of a western country.
For most of the time, even that will not happen. You only get your posts deleted, or your government ID banned on several major forums, and that's it.

Only people with death wish to take down the government get erased.
For anyone with any amount of flex in political views, they will live in China just fine.
If you choose to fight Chinese government, and made it clear that only one can survive, then you've asked for it.
Hold on. It's unfair and doesn't try to hide it, but proclaims its power belongs to the people? Isn't that proclaiming you're by and and for all and not actually being it, even by law?

I accept that coming from different backgrounds and environments creates different views, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 02:03:50 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #244 on: December 20, 2018, 02:03:51 am »
In defense of our Legislators it appears to me that only the Senate really knows about this huge change they made. Possibly only a few Senators really understand it in its full sense.

The House has plausible deniability in case the s*** hits the fan in some way. Because it could turn into a MAJOR disaster. It already did actually, in 2008. IMHO.

Read https://docs.wto.org/dol2fe/Pages/FE_Search/FE_S_S006.aspx?Query=(@Symbol=%20gats/sc/*)%20and%20((%20@Title=%20united%20states%20)%20or%20(@CountryConcerned=%20united%20states))&Language=ENGLISH&Context=FomerScriptedSearch&languageUIChanged=true# (Supplement #3)

Filed February 26, 1998 (the very last day)

last page, top, the single line where it says how the Glass-Steagall Act was going to be reformed and why.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 02:28:16 am by cdev »
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #245 on: December 20, 2018, 02:13:21 am »
The URAA was signed December 8. 1994 by President Bill Clinton, and became effective January 1, 1995. Also thats when the first set of changes went into effect in the US, EU and the other original WTO Member nations. Read up on the progressive liberalisation of services. Progressive in this context means a one way street.  Regulating governments. 

The new plurilateral which is also being sponsored by Australia, is "opt out" instead of "opt in" like its predecessor, so it is really quite 'ambitious' as they put it.

In the people of the EU's case a notice has been provided here: http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6891-2013-ADD-1-DCL-1/en/pdf




 

« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 02:26:48 am by cdev »
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #246 on: December 20, 2018, 02:42:27 am »
Hold on. It's unfair and doesn't try to hide it, but proclaims its power belongs to the people? Isn't that proclaiming you're by and and for all and not actually being it, even by law?

The power belongs to the people and is practiced by the elites among the people. Does it contradict itself? It seems perfectly fine to me.

Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

Power to change or attempt change is something most countries in the world allow. Totalitarian, Despotic and Religiously run states cling to power by reducing or removing the power of the people.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #247 on: December 20, 2018, 02:51:51 am »
The power belongs to the people and is practiced by the elites among the people. Does it contradict itself? It seems perfectly fine to me.
It's like saying "this cake belongs to us all" and then eating the entire thing yourself. The initial statement doesn't appear to be true.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #248 on: December 20, 2018, 02:53:25 am »
Apis,

This varies a lot from country to country. Unfortunately, collectively (speaking of the entire world) we failed to take the advice of Franz Neumann - read up on the arguments advanced by Neumann during the Nuremberg trial of fascist jurist Carl Schmitt in the immediate aftermath of WWII. They laid out some general principles of liberal democracy but those principles have run into a brick wall in the form of the aforementioned neoliberalism.

The governments for some countries are not democratic and they objected. So in the interests of business and investors we now have a world without many 'rights' which should have been established by now. We're actually going backwards. In particular rights to necessities are not established, if they are sold by anybody in a country. It may actually become FTA illegal for countries to reserve food for their poorest members, etc. Freedom is increasingly framed as the freedom to buy and sell.

I also highly recommend Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" which can be found online at https://monoskop.org/images/4/4e/Arendt_Hannah_The_Origins_of_Totalitarianism_1962.pdf -

Some treaties have attempted to advance universal human rights, with mixed success.


Human rights gives citizens a minimum of protection from the state. It says the state (and anyone else) isn't allowed to murder me, torture me or turn me into a slave. I prefer to keep my human rights thank you. Your definition of cult is strange.

The best definition of a cult was advanced by Robert J. Lifton in his "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China"

There is a page on Wikipedia about it but its deliberately perhaps been obfuscated so the description is not very good or understandable. There are far better web pages to read about Lifton's book if you're not going to buy it. What he says about cults holds true for all cults. We live in a very cult-like society today, with a number of different cults all demanding you suspend your logical mind and give them your complete allegiance.

Another good description of cult-like thinking was written by Irving Janis in his study of 'groupthink' .

North Korea's communism, which is by all accounts, questioned by a larger and larger number of North Koreans is based on Chinese Communism of the 1950s and 60s and is perhaps the purest example of a cult today, but even it is in serious trouble. Other cults are likely found in the US and EU and the other Anglo-speaking countries, with neoliberalism, which is very powerful, and based on a lot of long debunked economic theories, and definitely a cult, perhaps still China, but honestly, I dont feel qualified to say, Om Shinrikyo in Japan, the Aum group was definitely a cult.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 03:06:27 am by cdev »
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Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #249 on: December 20, 2018, 03:12:36 am »
Many "western countries" violate the human rights too, but many at least try. Here in Europe were we have the European Court of Human Rights for example, and we no longer use the death penalty. I don't get why China doesn't embrace at least the bulk of it, it's pretty basic stuff. Now the Chinese government just open themselves up to easy criticism. I don't get why they US doesn't abolish the death penalty either though.

Quote
The six communist countries abstentions centred around the view that the Declaration did not go far enough in condemning fascism and Nazism. Eleanor Roosevelt attributed the abstention of Soviet bloc countries to Article 13, which provided the right of citizens to leave their countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

cdev:
Thanks for the reading advice, sounds interesting. I also like Hannah Arendt.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 03:21:02 am by apis »
 


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