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General => General Chat => Topic started by: edy on December 06, 2018, 05:42:41 pm

Title: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 06, 2018, 05:42:41 pm
Major news headline around the world of the arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou, in Vancouver, Canada on behalf of US. Apparently Huawei is world's largest maker of phones, selling to markets around the world but I think blocked out of the US for alleged spyware backdoors. This follows also a crippling of ZTE, another smaller rival that was also blocked out of buying from US suppliers, in which Chinese President Xi had to intervene to get a reprieve so ZTE could continue functioning.

I am not sure exactly what any of this has to do with... patent issues, sanctions on Iran, trade war... It is all jumbled up and confusing and the stock market is already dropping like crazy so who knows what officials had inside knowledge and taking advantage of it in their portfolios (yet to be seen).

Nevertheless, how does that bode for the average consumer, hobbyist, electronics enthusiast who is relying on Chinese technologies and manufacturing? Does the USA have sole discretion to act according to it's own decisions and affect trade relations of China also with other countries. For example, I'm in Canada and Meng was arrested in Canada because of extradition treaties. China now will also turn a cold shoulder to Canada and any other US allies, and the impact will be unpredictable. Canadian companies doing business with China also could be retaliated against by US, and so it goes on and on.

Many US companies are manufacturing and assembling in China, including Apple. What effects will it have on those and others who are relying on Chinese production lines?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Kleinstein on December 06, 2018, 05:57:56 pm
The arrest is supposed to be because of the US sanctions against Iran.
The problem here is that the US wants the sanctions for political reasons, but does not want to pay the full prize. So they want other counties to also not sell stuff to Iran, though these companies are not under US jurisdiction. I don't know the details here - especially if Huawei is also sending stuff out from the US, or has offices in the US.

So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Imagine a Arab country enforcing there trade sanctions against Israel also for US managers traveling to Europe.  :popcorn: 
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 06, 2018, 06:05:16 pm
So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Yes that is my concern as well, but Canada will often cave to US demands as they are not coming from a strong position. Which means that this could affect trade relations between Canada-China and visiting of Chinese technology firms here also, for fear of being arrested too. May also affect ability of Canadian companies to buy technology for China, and so on.  :scared:  Perhaps this is just a political stunt to turn the thumbscrews on President Xi at the negotiating table, but we'll have to wait and see the repercussions.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 06, 2018, 06:10:19 pm
Interesting time to watch the reality show at global level by Trump.  >:D
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: TheSteve on December 06, 2018, 06:23:18 pm
Huawei is not sold in the US. In Canada they sell phones and cell base station infrastructure.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: floobydust on December 06, 2018, 06:26:21 pm
Most of us know world domination is the chinese agenda, so of course there's consequences.

Even 10 years ago I couldn't design in Huawei due to backdoors the US Government alleged.
WiFi and Ethernet routers with chinese chipsets are also on the list as a security concern.

What is Canada's stance on chinese telecom and national security?
This whole thing is also pressure for Canada to take a stance instead of being nicey-nice at the cost of the nation. The politics here is interesting. To kiss chinese ass and not extradite? Or have some balls and take a position on the issue. Or to kiss American ass?


Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 06, 2018, 06:28:22 pm
This article seems to give us some reasoning behind it:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-12-28/us-sanctions-keep-western-businesses-out-iran-china-seizes-opportunity (https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-12-28/us-sanctions-keep-western-businesses-out-iran-china-seizes-opportunity)

There are the UN sanctions and then there are the US sanctions... which the US tries to impose through various means on other countries to abide by... in this case, they are putting pressure on ZTE, Huawei and other Chinese firms that also do business in Iran. As far as I know, there are no UN sanctions on selling Chinese electronics and smart phones to Iran, are there? Could it be that any possible US patented technology/component found inside a Chinese device is prohibited from entering Iran by US? China is filling the void the West is leaving behind in Iran, primarily due to pressure by US for everyone to follow the "extended" set of US sanctions... and they have no choice unless to face retribution by US in various forms (like may be happening now against China).

As to what Canada is to do in the current situation, it is going to be interesting to watch. I don't doubt for a minute they will side with USA but hopefully for the correct reasons. But our leaders these days are predictably unpredictable. I think there was an old Chinese curse that went something like.... "may you live in interesting times".

Another news article on it...
https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-06/top-huawei-executive-has-been-arrested-us-request-clouding-china-trade-truce (https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-06/top-huawei-executive-has-been-arrested-us-request-clouding-china-trade-truce)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edpalmer42 on December 06, 2018, 06:50:02 pm
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.  Which means that US sanctions are meaningless, only UN sanctions that Canada has adopted are significant.

The process itself if a combination of government/political decisions and a judicial process.  If the judge says 'no' to extradition, then 'no' it is - regardless of what the politicians want.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/12/06/a-look-at-the-process-canada-follows-in-response-to-an-extradition-request/

Just to be clear, IANAL.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: chris_leyson on December 06, 2018, 06:59:58 pm
Somewhat off topic but I read today that British Telecom are removing Huawei equipment from their 3G and 4G networks and will not accept any bids from Huawei for 5G contracts over security concerns. The British government are still sitting on the fence regarding Huawei and 5G, they haven't said NO, well not yet anyway.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IanB on December 06, 2018, 07:15:22 pm
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Ice-Tea on December 06, 2018, 07:21:08 pm
Could it be that any possible US patented technology/component found inside a Chinese device is prohibited from entering Iran by US?

That's exactly what it is AFAIK: a US vendor (Qualcom SOCs, Intel modems, ...) sells stuff to Chinese manufacturers but in order to be allowed to do that, the recipient has to sign of on a document that prohibits them from selling to countries that are sanctioned by the US.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 06, 2018, 07:36:08 pm
"she" is the daughter of founder of the company arrested in the immediate time frame post weekend''s agreement between China and USA on reduction of tariffs.
How rude
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edpalmer42 on December 06, 2018, 08:40:07 pm
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

Straight from the Canadian Department of Justice.  No idea what happens in other countries.
Quote
In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html (https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html)



Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 06, 2018, 08:47:22 pm
Somewhat off topic but I read today that British Telecom are removing Huawei equipment from their 3G and 4G networks and will not accept any bids from Huawei for 5G contracts over security concerns. The British government are still sitting on the fence regarding Huawei and 5G, they haven't said NO, well not yet anyway.
The problem when you have abandoned making this kind of thing in your own country is you only have choices you really shouldn't trust.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on December 06, 2018, 09:28:57 pm
Or trust Ericsson.

And half of the country falls flat on its arse as happened here in the UK today.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 06, 2018, 09:32:52 pm
actual corporate response:

 a speech with the phrase 'a few bad apples....' in it.
(https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/41skqXGd1GL._SY355_.jpg)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: richnormand on December 06, 2018, 09:45:42 pm
Also interesting, as reported in some news feeds, is that she is the one that requested a publication ban on this case.....

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858 (https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858)


Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: shteii01 on December 06, 2018, 10:38:35 pm
Huawei is not sold in the US. In Canada they sell phones and cell base station infrastructure.
I can buy their stuff in US from Newegg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=Huawei&N=-1&isNodeId=1 (https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=Huawei&N=-1&isNodeId=1)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: vk6zgo on December 06, 2018, 11:26:35 pm
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

Straight from the Canadian Department of Justice.  No idea what happens in other countries.
Quote
In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html (https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html)
Pretty much the same in Oz.

An extradition hearing is held before a judge to determine the legality of the request.
Obviously this becomes necessary because some countries have crimes on the books which are ridiculous to a modern society, like "sacrilege", " Lese' majeste", & various types of sexual behaviour or orientation
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 07, 2018, 12:29:00 am
The arrest is supposed to be because of the US sanctions against Iran.
The problem here is that the US wants the sanctions for political reasons, but does not want to pay the full prize. So they want other counties to also not sell stuff to Iran, though these companies are not under US jurisdiction. I don't know the details here - especially if Huawei is also sending stuff out from the US, or has offices in the US.

So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Imagine a Arab country enforcing there trade sanctions against Israel also for US managers traveling to Europe.  :popcorn:


It's my understanding that Huawei was selling US made goods to Iran in contravention of the restrictions.  Ignoring for the moment the legitimacy of the US sanctions if Huawei sold US goods to Iran against the sanctions that's a problem and they will be held accountable.  Now, as far as the sanctions are concerned the US is playing games here but then again so is Iran.  In the immortal words of Rodnet King ... "Can't we all just get along".  Sadly, getting along is not in the cards these days...


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 07, 2018, 03:08:02 am
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

This is true, however, not having much details of the arrest available yet, my hope is that this arrest is an NPT ([Nuclear] Non-Proliferation Treaty) triggered UN Sanction - which will oblige all NPT nations to enforce the sanction as well.  China is a funny case with NPT.  At the time of the signing, Taiwan (ROC-Republic of China) was in the UN.  When China (People's Republic of China) replaced ROC in the UN, it is unclear to me as to whether China "inherited" ROC's obligations.  I hope it does, and I hope this is an NPT-triggered sanction arrest - and case adjudicated accordingly.

If an NPT nation can enjoying the benefits of NPT while doing nuclear development anyway, that makes the whole NPT a joke.  This would open the flood gates for any other NPT to do the same making the whole NPT meaningless.

NPT is the UN treaty with the most signatories (198) and has been successful in controlling nuclear growth.  If it becomes meaningless, nuclear weapons will grow like mushrooms.  I would like to see this thin-thread tying down this pandora's box remains to keep the box secure.  Plenty of nations with the dollars and ambition to buy/develop a bomb for themselves.  We don't need another few dozen countries with a nuclear arsenal.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 07, 2018, 03:23:47 am
China now will also turn a cold shoulder to Canada and any other US allies, and the impact will be unpredictable.

Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 07, 2018, 03:31:20 am
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.
Isolationism has always proven to be success and certainly not a sure-fire way of having the whole world overtake you.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 03:33:18 am
i do wonder however how much home improvement got done because of harbor freight in the last 10 years or so.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 07, 2018, 03:52:18 am
The rumors circulate in China is that Huawei has something to do with the death of a Chinese-American scientist innovated some pretty sick nano material. What's more is the particular scientist also runs an angel funding company in China that may have incubated some smaller companies that may touch Huawei's interest.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 07, 2018, 04:00:18 am
When China (People's Republic of China) replaced ROC in the UN, it is unclear to me as to whether China "inherited" ROC's obligations.  I hope it does, and I hope this is an NPT-triggered sanction arrest - and case adjudicated accordingly.

If an NPT nation can enjoying the benefits of NPT while doing nuclear development anyway, that makes the whole NPT a joke.  This would open the flood gates for any other NPT to do the same making the whole NPT meaningless.

The PRC is an NPT country since 1988.

There's no concrete evidence that China is physically developing new nukes, but China is indeed using computer simulation to improve nukes, which is what triggered USA's ban on Intel Xeon E5/E7/Phi products to China if the recipient company is a state owned one.

To be fair, US is doing the same thing. US is/was experimenting (using simulation) with EBW detonators instead of primary explosives to make safer, longer-shelf life nukes.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 07, 2018, 05:48:49 am
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:17:24 am
cyberpunk communist 2.0 capital of the world. neuromancer meets animal farm
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:19:37 am
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.

you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.

i am pretty sure I received a document that was intentionally photocopied a whole bunch of times over to make a certain table hard to read and mistake (1 number off from being something you might consider quality).

if you read it wrong you think, wow these guys did their homework found out all the little nuances and tried to make a good product (looked like weird good custom stuff).

if you decipher it correctly you think wow their trying to sell us shit they built with stuff pulled out of the trash
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 07, 2018, 06:23:13 am
basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.

Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 07, 2018, 06:23:46 am
you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.
Bullshit. You get what you pay for and apparently most want to pay very little. If you choose to do business with the cheapest, sketchiest outfit you can find you'll invariably get the results you mention.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:24:33 am
yea but my investigatory reports had more credibility because you can read the charts properly
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 07, 2018, 06:24:49 am
Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
Or use basic interpunction, capitals or nuance.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:25:55 am
you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.
Bullshit. You get what you pay for and apparently most want to pay very little. If you choose to do business with the cheapest, sketchiest outfit you can find you'll invariably get the results you mention.

no way... we were at the point that someone was going to be sent to actually verify if they have a production line at all based on the crap we were getting. sounded too good to be true and I never found the end of it, perhaps to my benefit. I am kinda glad I got away from that shit.

based on what we were getting, it appeared they might not have had the equipment they claimed they owned.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:30:33 am
Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
Or use basic interpunction, capitals or nuance.

i make wheel
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 07, 2018, 06:33:35 am
no way... we were at the point that someone was going to be sent to actually verify if they have a production line at all based on the crap we were getting. sounded too good to be true and I never found the end of it, perhaps to my benefit. I am kinda glad I got away from that shit.

based on what we were getting, it appeared they might nave had the equipment they claimed they owned.
That sounds like a fair bit of inexperience with having things manufactured overseas, to be honest. It's customary to visit China to inspect the factory and capabilities, or have an intermediary do this for you. It's also wise to have someone well aware of Chinese culture and business practices on the ground to help you with the process. Only heading out to check out things well into the process suggests inexperience. If you just wave some money at random people from a distance, they're likely to be glad to take it off you.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 07, 2018, 06:37:44 am
having to visit to make sure the #1 seller of a well known product that advertises a crazy high end process on their website with no pride and extremely shady documentation is pretty bad if thats the best in the nation, are you supposed to bring protection against kidnapping when you visit #4?

not really my problem anymore though  ^-^


your not far off though, i called it cyber punk for a reason, its like doing business outside of a bar in a dark street with someone that has spiky pink hair and a leather jacket. maybe a little red book too... but as an engineer i don't want to get involved in that side of things. hire a detective.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: vk6zgo on December 07, 2018, 06:54:16 am
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.

I'm glad you pointed out that it was the decision of business people.
The usual rejoinder is "If the public don't want cheap crap, they wouldn't buy it".

In reality, we don't get to make that choice, as even the upmarket brands which are high priced by any standards are also made in China, to similar, & sometimes even inferior standards to the cheapest unknown brands.

After going through several name brands of electric kettle which were obviously designed to look pretty, rather than work properly ( they leaked like sieves), we are now using an "el Cheapo" unit which is properly designed & made.

That said, when I worked at a place where we had five  transmitters made (to what seemed to be, a reasonable spec ) in the PRC, I guess we didn't have the excuse of it being someone else's decision.
(I can honestly say that personally, because the order was sent before I started there).

On arrival, one "sort of" worked, but not a "peep" out of the others.
We sent them back ----Profuse apologies by our contact person at the company (a really nice bloke, who really didn't have a clue what was happening).

After another month or so, they came back
This time, one worked pretty much as it should have, three "sort of", & one not at all.

We decided to try to fix them ourselves, which we did, with very little assistance from the manufacturer.

Every time we spoke to them, they had some reason to fob us off, from national holidays to component shortages, to just plain denying we asked them to do something.

After trying to have technical conversations with them, we came to the conclusion that the guys who designed the transmitters were from "rent an EE", probably recent graduates with little or no knowledge of RF equipment other than what they could find on the Internet.
Once the job was done, they were let go, disappearing into the cloud of young EEs buzzing around in that
country.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 07, 2018, 08:23:52 am
Coppercone,
I was referring to the specification the buyer for the importer for the distributor for the retailer purchases against a spec.
The buyer's spec not manufacturer's spec irrespective of who actually writes the spec since the purchase order lists attributes of purchased goods.

It is usually businessmen who do the deals and consumers don't have much of an option. aka Walmart syndrome.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 09, 2018, 03:33:55 am
...
After going through several name brands of electric kettle which were obviously designed to look pretty, rather than work properly ( they leaked like sieves), we are now using an "el Cheapo" unit which is properly designed & made.
...

This problem really drives me nuts also.  The trouble isn't so much as cheap stuff sold as cheap stuff, but it is hard to find things that isn't cheaply made even if you are willing to pay the price.

I am totally at a lost as to where to buy reasonable quality stuff - you know, like the stuff you could find before Walmart existed.  It seems now different stores are selling different brands at different price points but all made in the same cheap factory somewhere in the land of no-quality.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 09, 2018, 03:47:22 am
It appears that China is now threatening Canada to release her or else.  The bluster is reminiscent to the similar threat made by Russia to the USA when we arrested Maria Butina.  It appears the threat is predicated on a similar premise -- to get the person out of the country before they can be questioned or prosecuted.  My guess is there's more to this story than we've heard so far.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Marco on December 09, 2018, 04:59:13 am
It's bad enough the US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions ... for Canada to cooperate with that is elevating the value of US laws to ridiculous level, Trump is truly emperor of the western world I guess.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 09, 2018, 05:04:59 am
Now Canada stuck in the middle of this diplomatic sh!tstorm....

"China warns Canada of 'consequences' if it fails to release Huawei CFO"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/)

The first line of the article... "China warned Canada on Saturday that there would be severe consequences if it did not immediately release Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's chief financial officer, calling the case 'extremely nasty'."   Apparently she faces charges of conspiracy to defraud multiple financial institutions, with a maximum sentence of 30 years for each charge!

So now because of this situation Canada is being sucked into this mess, and torn between China and US. What a disaster... will be very interesting to follow what happens, this could have major repercussions not only to trade. Sounds like Canada is screwed no matter what it does!
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 09, 2018, 05:09:10 am
The US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions? And Canada is cooperating with that bullshit?


Yeah, it would be bullshit if anyone working for the company is vulnerable to prosecution, but since that isn't the case and she's being accused of active participation that would substantially change your argument.  We can argue whether or not the US sanctions are appropriate, but when a company knowingly sells US made goods in contravention to the sanctions you best not find yourself in a country that is likely to extradite you to the US for prosecution.  If she had participated in selling Chinese goods we wouldn't be talking about this.  In essence, the dealing of said materials is kind of like selling weapons on the black market -- Iran wanted it and likely paid more than retail for it.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 09, 2018, 05:13:20 am
Now Canada stuck in the middle of this diplomatic sh!tstorm....

"China warns Canada of 'consequences' if it fails to release Huawei CFO"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/ (https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/)

The first line of the article... "China warned Canada on Saturday that there would be severe consequences if it did not immediately release Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's chief financial officer, calling the case 'extremely nasty'."   Apparently she faces charges of conspiracy to defraud multiple financial institutions, with a maximum sentence of 30 years for each charge!

So now because of this situation Canada is being sucked into this mess, and torn between China and US. What a disaster... will be very interesting to follow what happens, this could have major repercussions not only to trade.


Yes, I mentioned this a few posts ago and the aggressiveness of the Chinese is reminiscent of the Russian effort to get Maria Butina out of the USA -- they made ominous threats but she's still in jail in the USA.  In fact, the very fact that the Chinese are being as aggressive leads me to believe there's more to this story then we've thus far be made aware of.  My guess is there's systematic sanctions violations taking place and China doesn't want that to be exposed.  Similarly, the US may see this as an opportunity to do just that -- expose it.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Marco on December 09, 2018, 05:20:16 am
best not find yourself in a country that is likely to extradite you to the US for prosecution.

Which under Trump is apparently almost any non Russia/China aligned nation for any law the US wants to put on the book. With that level of isolation we are driving China and Russia into each other's arms, time for cold war 2.0.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Sredni on December 09, 2018, 05:29:38 am
Can someone enlighten me on the security risks of using Huawei gear for critical infrastructure?

From what I've read, I understand that if the military in China wanted Huawei to put dead rats in their hardware or software, they would have no choice but to comply. My question is: how hard is for the recipient of said hardware (and software) to find any dead rats?

Is it practically unfeasible due to the complexity of the systems (decapping and scrutinizing all chips to find suprises) and frequency of updates (reading all software in detail at every patch)? Closed source firmware and the such? Sheer quantity of code?
Or is there some other more cogent reason that escapes me?

I mean, it seems reasonable to get the pieces of any critical infrastructures from countries that are your military allies, so that they are the ones spying on you (Echelon, if I am not mistaken came out of the Five Eyes countries: USA UK NZ AU and CA), so that you can spare the effort of scrutinizing everything...

Shouldn't all critical infrastructure be open source, from the firmware up?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 09, 2018, 05:30:01 am
What a great opportunity for Canada to cut chinese ties. Cant wait for it.  :-+
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Marco on December 09, 2018, 05:42:30 am
Can someone enlighten me on the security risks of using Huawei gear for critical infrastructure?

From what I've read, I understand that if the military in China wanted Huawei to put dead rats in their hardware or software, they would have no choice but to comply. My question is: how hard is for the recipient of said hardware (and software) to find any dead rats?

If you put in a plausibly deniable backdoor in the form of a remote exploit which lets you inject code and then exfiltrate data through some low bandwidth timing based side channels it's almost impossible to detect. Neither the backdoor, nor the exfiltration. That said we have a saying here, roughly translating to "as the host is he trusts his guests". If the US is getting paranoid about it, I'm sure they are doing it :)

PS. it still takes a big conspiracy to put such things in place and information about such things can easily leak ... and proof of Huawei backdooring their hardware would have crippled their business, although in the end vague assertions is all it took.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 09, 2018, 06:31:27 am
What a great opportunity for Canada to cut chinese ties. Cant wait for it.  :-+

It's a better opportunity to give Trump the middle finger for dragging your country into another international mess.

You are being made a party to 'poor us' the big bad evil empire of X has imposed tariff barriers over our exports. This is pathetic as one of the largest imposers (outside of maybe the EU) of Tariffs is the US on other countries including yours and ours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership The last in a long line of BS US walkouts.

Australia as a 'special best friend' of the US sees us tarred with all the negatives internationally and very very few positives.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 09, 2018, 08:12:49 am
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

And again, the fact that China is playing hardball, or trying to, certainly raises the spectre that this is not a single transaction.  Canada is not going to be invaded by China for lawfully holding someone charged with a crime.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 09, 2018, 08:53:00 am
So if say company X from country Y brought ANY US component or item added it to their own and on sold it to Iran, North Korea etc then the US will 'uni laterally' decide to take action against whoever they like?

Currently the UN is reducing and removing sanctions against Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2231 but the US has 'decided' they are in breach.

Trump needs the political strongman points so lets keep it up after all the next election is under 2 years away and he needs to hide his own current local 'real' issues .....   :--
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Kleinstein on December 09, 2018, 09:57:39 am
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

And again, the fact that China is playing hardball, or trying to, certainly raises the spectre that this is not a single transaction.  Canada is not going to be invaded by China for lawfully holding someone charged with a crime.

Brian

It depends on the conditions / treaties how the US good were sold to the Chinese. If Intel sold there chips with just normal orders and paperwork, the buyer is free to sell them like he wants - US laws would no longer apply. If at all the US might go after the US company (e.g. Intel) who exported those items without proper permissions  / treaties that oblige the buyer no to sell those parts to some countries. Even than it can be tricky on which law applies to those papers and what are the consequences.

US companies are quite ignorant in claiming that US law should apply to license agreements - though in many cases that means they get the lesser of the US and foreign law if outside the US.

The US are kind of fast in calling for trade sanctions, but are not really willing to pay the price, which are trade disadvantages for there companies.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 09, 2018, 11:10:49 am
Some of the laws US imposes are downright stpid.

I order goods from Mouser say...they ask me to sign of on a non resale to certain proscribed countries.
They even insist on knowing the application into whihc the part will be inbuilt.

Almost enforced industrial espionage,.

I purchase the same part locally ...I can do with it  what ever i want to no questions ask.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Marco on December 09, 2018, 02:24:58 pm
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

From the point of few of might makes right it's easy. Fom the point of view that first sale doctrine is the morally correct way to trade it's also easy. From the point of view of contract law it completely depends on the treaties China is party to and which contracts Huawei signed. Even then, breach of contract is hardly something I would expect any civilized nation to perform arrest and extradition for.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 09, 2018, 08:29:47 pm
It's bad enough the US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions ... for Canada to cooperate with that is elevating the value of US laws to ridiculous level, Trump is truly emperor of the western world I guess.
I'm not a lawyer, but I have work in publicly owned company near "fat city" (ie: executive suite) a bit here and there...

It is pretty typical in the western world that officers of the company are legally responsible for the action of the company - hence they are officers of the company.  It may seem odd at first, but if you think about Bhopal (India) disaster where over 3700 died by actions of a company, you would agree the responsible officers of the company should have some responsibility if the actions were careless or illegal.

Typically for a publicly owned company in the USA, officers are corporate VP level minimum - divisional/subsidiary entities' VP would be liable only to the extend of that division/subsidiary.  In some instances, it extends down to lower level depending on specific role.  For example, you are a grunt working on a buy-out/merger... (you guys are smart here, I don't need to go into the details of how/why there would be legal constrains for one with advance knowledge about pending buy-out/merger).

In the case of CFO/CEO regarding financial statements, after one of the collapses, a new law to more clearly spell out the responsibilities was passed.    [I don't recollect when the law was passed, could have been Enron, or could have been the 2008 collapse].

Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

[Edit:] added the paragraph about Bhopal disaster that was missed when I first clicked save.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 09, 2018, 09:59:23 pm
And, once again, the very fact that China is playing hardball here should be ringing bells.  I mean, if a Chinese national is arrested for some crime it might be reasonable for China to request justification and perhaps, if they feel its unwarranted, log a protest, but for them to jump the shark and threatened both the US and Canada is ringing that bell all the louder.

Apparently the investigations began back in 2016, before Trump was president, so the types of violations would seem to have been before the Trump admin reinstated sanctions again.  There are nations that are on a prohibited list for a range of products and that goes beyond the sanctions related to there nuclear program.  Back in the 80's Toshiba and the Swedish company Konigsborg (sp?) were prosecuted for providing the then USSR machine tools capable of making more silent Submarine propulsion screws (props). 

So, the aggressiveness that China is engaging in has my bullshit detector going off and I think we're going to learn more before long -- and that is why China wants her back home.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 10, 2018, 04:20:02 pm
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 10, 2018, 05:15:18 pm
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 10, 2018, 05:17:52 pm
china has no problems putting American citizens in jail because of their political actions. I think there was a high profile tourist couple with dual citizenship put in jail recently.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 10, 2018, 05:28:04 pm
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.
If HuaWei exported products containing US technology, in contravention of the conditions under which they obtained that technology, the only jurisdiction issue the US has is whether they can get their hands on the perpetrator. Any US devices not classified as EAR99 come with strings attached. On more than one occasion senior people from HuaWei have been to the Sstate Department in Washington to personally petition for certain advanced devices to be supplied to them, promising to only use them for purposes approved by the State Department.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 10, 2018, 06:01:17 pm
china has no problems putting American citizens in jail because of their political actions. I think there was a high profile tourist couple with dual citizenship put in jail recently.

China demands absolute loyalty from it's  citizens, thus China doesn't allow dual citizenship. The moment you walk into Chinese border with two passports, one being Chinese passport, you are already asking for troubles.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 10, 2018, 06:52:22 pm
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 10, 2018, 06:57:02 pm
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
"I.... hate manuuuure!"
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 10, 2018, 06:59:54 pm
What i read in a local newspaper it is not about Huawei but a supplier company which the chinese say is a separate entity, but the americans consider it the same Huawei, pointing it is managed and operated by same people, even at employee level. Do not know, fake news are everywhere so taking it with a grain of salt.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 10, 2018, 07:05:58 pm
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
"I.... hate manuuuure!"

....  brought to you by D. Jones, Manure Hauling
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 10, 2018, 07:12:51 pm
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 10, 2018, 07:18:12 pm
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
Natch, China up until now loved everything about Canada and many Chinese aspired to own second residences in Canada.
Things now a little more complicated, but I imagine that everything will blow over unless the brinkmen win and make this into a diplomatic menage a trois between the US, Canada and China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 10, 2018, 07:36:38 pm
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
How many houses does she have in China?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 10, 2018, 08:47:30 pm
What i read in a local newspaper it is not about Huawei but a supplier company which the chinese say is a separate entity, but the americans consider it the same Huawei, pointing it is managed and operated by same people, even at employee level. Do not know, fake news are everywhere so taking it with a grain of salt.

Standard practice is to use cutouts to limit prosecution in case they get discovered.  The use of cutouts doesn't actually avoid the crime though it does muddy the waters as to who to go after.

In organized crime prosecution the ring leaders often use underlings (cutouts) to avoid getting there hands dirty, but they can still be prosecuted if they have the evidence that there was coordination from the leadership.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 10, 2018, 09:42:38 pm
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.

So far, I am sure that the law she allegedly broke is Iran trade related but I am not sure which one.  I would like to be able to narrow down to the U.S.C. numbers from official sources to be able to discuss the issue on firm grounds.  Thus far, most news description is merely "violating US Iran Sanction..." or similar which is no help.

But you did raised an interesting point in your reply: "If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China."

The point you raised is the reason I hope whichever law(s) she allegedly broke is one of those laws that re-affirms UN sanction originated from NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).  Re-affirm as in "if you break this UN sanction, it is breaking US law".  (I believe) An NPT driven UN sanction should have wide international support since NPT is the most-signed UN treaty.  That would be least disruptive to international trade.  If the law in question is one of those "domestic" US laws but Huawei is constrained by applicable US laws because they have an operation in the USA...  While I can see the rationale behind that, but I think that link would be too tenuous.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 10, 2018, 10:46:28 pm

It is pretty typical in the western world that officers of the company are legally responsible for the action of the company - hence they are officers of the company.  It may seem odd at first, but if you think about Bhopal (India) disaster where over 3700 died by actions of a company, you would agree the responsible officers of the company should have some responsibility if the actions were careless or illegal.

Typically for a publicly owned company in the USA, officers are corporate VP level minimum - divisional/subsidiary entities' VP would be liable only to the extend of that division/subsidiary.  In some instances, it extends down to lower level depending on specific role.  For example, you are a grunt working on a buy-out/merger... (you guys are smart here, I don't need to go into the details of how/why there would be legal constrains for one with advance knowledge about pending buy-out/merger).

In the case of CFO/CEO regarding financial statements, after one of the collapses, a new law to more clearly spell out the responsibilities was passed.    [I don't recollect when the law was passed, could have been Enron, or could have been the 2008 collapse].

Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

[Edit:] added the paragraph about Bhopal disaster that was missed when I first clicked save.

I think that statements from official sounding people in the years after the Bhopal disaster that the now defunct company took responsibility are likely to have been a hoax. 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 12:37:53 am

So far, I am sure that the law she allegedly broke is Iran trade related but I am not sure which one.  I would like to be able to narrow down to the U.S.C. numbers from official sources to be able to discuss the issue on firm grounds.  Thus far, most news description is merely "violating US Iran Sanction..." or similar which is no help.

But you did raised an interesting point in your reply: "If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China."

The point you raised is the reason I hope whichever law(s) she allegedly broke is one of those laws that re-affirms UN sanction originated from NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).  Re-affirm as in "if you break this UN sanction, it is breaking US law".  (I believe) An NPT driven UN sanction should have wide international support since NPT is the most-signed UN treaty.  That would be least disruptive to international trade.  If the law in question is one of those "domestic" US laws but Huawei is constrained by applicable US laws because they have an operation in the USA...  While I can see the rationale behind that, but I think that link would be too tenuous.

I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?

Other than being a member of the UN the USA doesn't have jurisdiction other than the Uni Lateral action it takes all to often I suspect. Rubbery charges to an 'alleged' crime of the UN sanctions for extradition to another 'Country' and not to the ICC spells BS and Bluster if they keep pushing UN sanctions.

If she and Huawei are being charged with breaching US laws on exports of goods indirectly headed for Iran then they need to prove it with a fully traceable paper trail of all parts or items. Good luck with 'demanding' Huawei release its Chinese documents to the USA.

If the USA is going to use a really rubbery link in that Huawei has Businesses in the USA and another corporate entity exported 'product' (not necessarily of USA origin or even exported from the USA) so your 'company' is guilty of breaking USA sanctions on imports to Iran banning export of anything to Iran. This is so thin it will break.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 11, 2018, 01:48:29 am
the retaliation begins

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774)

but why only older models? surely they can find reasons to also ban everything else fruity totally?

Warning shot.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 11, 2018, 01:53:28 am
the retaliation begins

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774 (https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774)

but why only older models? surely they can find reasons to also ban everything else fruity totally?

This seems to be more of an Apple vs. Qualcomm issue as they are fighting each other around the globe regarding patent infringements and payments for the privilege of using certain chips in devices. However, it was expected China would look the other way and not accept Qualcomm's argument.... allowing iPhones to still be sold. Perhaps the latest tensions of trade and Huawei tainted the judgement here and they favored a win for Qualcomm to stifle Apple iPhone sales.

As you noted, it only affects older phones and it is unlikely that it can really be enforced as there is a healthy market within and outside of China where there are plenty of people who are moving these devices around, refurbishing, etc. I am not sure how Qualcomm is going to stop it and how. What you need is Chinese military blockade of Foxconn stopping all new iPhones from being made in their factory. Then Apple can move manufacturing back to the USA and charge $2000 for their next model.... oh wait, we're already paying that:

https://vancouversun.com/technology/personal-tech/canadians-pricing-for-new-iphones-range-from-1029-to-1999 (https://vancouversun.com/technology/personal-tech/canadians-pricing-for-new-iphones-range-from-1029-to-1999)

 :-DD
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 11, 2018, 02:10:03 am

So far, I am sure that the law she allegedly broke is Iran trade related but I am not sure which one.  I would like to be able to narrow down to the U.S.C. numbers from official sources to be able to discuss the issue on firm grounds.  Thus far, most news description is merely "violating US Iran Sanction..." or similar which is no help.

But you did raised an interesting point in your reply: "If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China."

The point you raised is the reason I hope whichever law(s) she allegedly broke is one of those laws that re-affirms UN sanction originated from NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).  Re-affirm as in "if you break this UN sanction, it is breaking US law".  (I believe) An NPT driven UN sanction should have wide international support since NPT is the most-signed UN treaty.  That would be least disruptive to international trade.  If the law in question is one of those "domestic" US laws but Huawei is constrained by applicable US laws because they have an operation in the USA...  While I can see the rationale behind that, but I think that link would be too tenuous.

I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?

Other than being a member of the UN the USA doesn't have jurisdiction other than the Uni Lateral action it takes all to often I suspect. Rubbery charges to an 'alleged' crime of the UN sanctions for extradition to another 'Country' and not to the ICC spells BS and Bluster if they keep pushing UN sanctions.

If she and Huawei are being charged with breaching US laws on exports of goods indirectly headed for Iran then they need to prove it with a fully traceable paper trail of all parts or items. Good luck with 'demanding' Huawei release its Chinese documents to the USA.

If the USA is going to use a really rubbery link in that Huawei has Businesses in the USA and another corporate entity exported 'product' (not necessarily of USA origin or even exported from the USA) so your 'company' is guilty of breaking USA sanctions on imports to Iran banning export of anything to Iran. This is so thin it will break.

re: "I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?"

Not all UN member nations recognize the authority of the ICC - only 123 signed.  USA is one of the non-signers.  However, all 198 nations that signed the NPT (by signing) declared their willingness to comply by the treaty's rules of adjudication and punishment.  Absence more signatures or withdrawals, ICC would be able to handle situations with only 62% of the NPT nations.

NPT is the Treaty with the most signatories, so, it would be mathematically impossible to find "another UN authority" that covers every NPT nations (except of course the General Assembly which is everyone in the UN, and probably what most people consider as the UN).

re: "If the USA is going to use a really rubbery link in that Huawei has Businesses in the USA and another corporate entity exported 'product' (not necessarily of USA origin or even exported from the USA) so your 'company' is guilty of breaking USA sanctions on imports to Iran banning export of anything to Iran. This is so thin it will break."

I agree with you.  That is why I said earlier I hope the law she allegedly broke trace itself back to the NPT (which implies it trace back to a UN sanction).  That is the most solid, most agreed-to, least complication and would not add as much international tension.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 11, 2018, 02:25:02 am
However, it was expected China would look the other way and not accept Qualcomm's argument.... allowing iPhones to still be sold.

I don't think so. Chinese government always favors Qualcomm, as it favors Chinese government. Chinese government had made a few requests to QC, and QC all agreed:

1. Sell licenses to Chinese phone makers at % royalty no more than competing western customers (say, an iPhone X pays $20 to QC, which is 2% of MSRP, then a Chinese $200 phone using the same IP pays no more than $4).
2. Allow Chinese companies (this case, a spun-off of Xiaomi) to roll chips under a very competitive royalty (basically, allowing Chinese companies to roll the same chip without paying copyright fee, and only pay for the patents used).
3. Use certain standards made by Chinese companies, like Datang and Huawei, as part of their proposed 5G standard, so they can share patent revenue.

QC tried to mess with Chinese government before, and it learned that being submissive is the only way to live in China, the hard way.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 11, 2018, 02:32:37 am
QC tried to mess with Chinese government before, and it learned that being submissive is the only way to live in China, the hard way.
China played off QC against MTK, and won.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 02:39:46 am
re: "I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?"

Not all UN member nations recognize the authority of the ICC - only 123 signed.  USA is one of the non-signers.  However, all 198 nations that signed the NPT (by signing) declared their willingness to comply by the treaty's rules of adjudication and punishment.  Absence more signatures or withdrawals, ICC would be able to handle situations with only 62% of the NPT nations.

NPT is the Treaty with the most signatories, so, it would be mathematically impossible to find "another UN authority" that covers every NPT nations (except of course the General Assembly which is everyone in the UN, and probably what most people consider as the UN).

Thanks. Not surprising the USA hasn't signed this one along with all the others that give the UN some power to act.  ::)

Wonder when the USA will pay the UN the money they have owed for a few decades too but I am sure non compliance with a UN agreement isn't and issue in this case 'because reasons' :box:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 03:04:37 am
re: "I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?"

Not all UN member nations recognize the authority of the ICC - only 123 signed.  USA is one of the non-signers.  However, all 198 nations that signed the NPT (by signing) declared their willingness to comply by the treaty's rules of adjudication and punishment.  Absence more signatures or withdrawals, ICC would be able to handle situations with only 62% of the NPT nations.

NPT is the Treaty with the most signatories, so, it would be mathematically impossible to find "another UN authority" that covers every NPT nations (except of course the General Assembly which is everyone in the UN, and probably what most people consider as the UN).

Thanks. Not surprising the USA hasn't signed this one along with all the others that give the UN some power to act.  ::)

Wonder when the USA will pay the UN the money they have owed for a few decades too but I am sure non compliance with a UN agreement isn't and issue in this case 'because reasons' :box:


What money does the USA owe to the UN -- care to elaborate?

From Wikipedia...

The United States of America is a charter member of the United Nations and one of five permanent members of the UN Security Council.

The United States is host to the headquarters of the United Nations, which includes the usual meeting place of the General Assembly in New York City, the seat of the Security Council and several bodies of the United Nations. The United States is the largest provider of financial contributions to the United Nations, providing 22 percent of the entire UN budget in 2017 (in comparison the next biggest contributor is Japan with almost 10 percent, while EU countries pay a total of above 30 percent).[1] From July 2016 to June 2017, 28.6 percent of the budget used for peacekeeping operations was provided by the United States.[2] The United States had a pivotal role in establishing the UN.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 03:33:18 am
The 'arrears' are fairly minor by nation standards but it is a matter of politics why it doesn't get paid. Seems how you want to quote wikipedia use this link and scroll to the section on Arrears https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations It goes to hypocrisy selective (self interested) adherence and demands of adherence by others of the UN decisions and mandates or agreements.

Perhaps read the entire page as it is mostly balanced fair commentary on the relationship between the USA and UN and not driven by 'fake news'

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 03:53:33 am
The 'arrears' are fairly minor by nation standards but it is a matter of politics why it doesn't get paid. Seems how you want to quote wikipedia use this link and scroll to the section on Arrears https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_and_the_United_Nations It goes to hypocrisy selective (self interested) adherence and demands of adherence by others of the UN decisions and mandates or agreements.

Perhaps read the entire page as it is mostly balanced fair commentary on the relationship between the USA and UN and not driven by 'fake news'

OK, the US is the largest contributer and the the nation most in arrears.  Part of the argument made by the US is that the amount to US pays is too high and, not surprisingly, not many other UN nations wish to change that.  This argument isn't new and goes back more than three decades so if there was going to be a reallocation of expenditures it should have happened by now.  India, for example, pays less than 1% even though they have 17% of the worlds population.  In fairness, however, the charge should be weighed against income as well so first world nations like the USA should expect to pay more than population figures would indicate. 

So I guess we're left with a chicken and egg situation where until the percentages are redone to be more equitable then you probably shouldn't hold your breath waiting for the USA to pay up.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 04:10:19 am
As I said it isn't about the money it is about the ongoing Hypocrisy.

The USA took us and other nations to war against the information and UN sanctions/compliance/mandate in the 2nd Iraq war. Using things like this gem "The U.S. replied by saying that the responsibility of proof of disarmament was upon Iraq, not on the UN or the U.S. Guilty because it suited the USA's agenda without proof or any evidence before or since. How many lives did that BS cost and is still costing?

Simple Trumpesque China, North Korea, Iran, Russia ..... bashing and brinkmanship isn't a resolution mechanism.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 11, 2018, 04:12:46 am
So latest is that Meng's lawyer is arguing for bail to involve $15,000,000 collateral (their two Vancouver homes and $1 million CAN) plus she privately pays a security monitoring agency and has to wear an ankle bracelet and be allowed to move around the Vancouver area. Plus she is apparently suffering from some health issues. Wouldn't it be ironic if the ankle bracelet used GPS tech made by China for which their government had a hackable back door and conveniently made her "disappear".
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 11, 2018, 04:13:16 am
WTO telecommunications treaty may require that the transnational corporations of any WTO member treat the TNCs of other member countries's money equally now no matter what they do.

Human rights, arms proliferation, power disputes between countries, etc. are a slippery slope that these money-oriented global economic governance organizations just don't care at all about.

People do and should but to the TNCs who now basically own countries, not the other way around, its hard to say what they care about. Its unlikely to be what they say it is. Much of what we see is signalling behavior, where some issues are proxies for other issues.

The WTO, OECD, World Bank, and other organizations regulating trade, are where the power seems to be - seem to me to see all governments as equivalent, no matter how despotic, sort of like the divine right of kings. These orgs are inherently non-democratic.

We set this system up so that corporations would be held accountable to nobody. Not so they would or could be held accountable. Any failure to see things our way (whatever that is) is caused by the intentionally amoral system we've set up to give corporations certainty no matter what people want.

We've created a monster.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 11, 2018, 05:30:36 am
Wouldn't it be ironic if the ankle bracelet used GPS tech made by China for which their government had a hackable back door and conveniently made her "disappear".

Well that would be a convenient excuse for Canada to get out of this, wouldn't it.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 06:09:39 am
I made reference in past posts to the similar aggressive bluster Russia engaged in vis a vis Maria Butina and we now know that she's about ready to plea, though just how far that goes no one outside of the FBI and her lawyers will say just now.  If this is so and she does spill the beans it could be real bad for Trump and also embarrassing to Putin though not so much as Trump.  The fact that Russia played hard to get her released suggests they wanted her to be taken out of the country before we could get any further.

I've felt all along that this case with Huawei was very similar with respect to wanting to get her out of harms way before the FBI can nail convict-able crimes against her.  The idea that China would start WWIII because the US wanted to prosecute her is ridiculous and failure to call China's bluff will only embolden them in the future.  I think we'll know more about this shortly -- either they have something and she's extradited to the USA for prosecution or she will be released.  If she's released under any circumstance I expect the next we hear of her she will be back in China.  I think daddy will have little problem righting off a couple homes in Canada if years in prison is the alternative. 


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 06:32:32 am
As I said it isn't about the money it is about the ongoing Hypocrisy.

The USA took us and other nations to war against the information and UN sanctions/compliance/mandate in the 2nd Iraq war. Using things like this gem "The U.S. replied by saying that the responsibility of proof of disarmament was upon Iraq, not on the UN or the U.S. Guilty because it suited the USA's agenda without proof or any evidence before or since. How many lives did that BS cost and is still costing?

Simple Trumpesque China, North Korea, Iran, Russia ..... bashing and brinkmanship isn't a resolution mechanism.


The blow-back from Bush/Cheney forcing the west to go back into Iraq is still with us -- the decision to go back is in my mind the single greatest foreign policy fuckup the USA has ever made.  We learned, only with the help of a Scottish newspaper, that the Bush admin was filled with members of the PNAC (Plan for the New American Century) that had been pushing to go back into Iraq since the mid 90's -- they seized upon 911 to convince the American people and other western nations that Saddam Hussein was part of OBL's terrorist group and needed to be taken out.  They fooled many but not all. 

In late 2001, November or December, I remember watching an interview with Admiral Woolsey, who I would later learn was a member of the PNAC, and his answers to the questions had my bullshit detector going off big time.  I don't remember who the interviewer was but this was not long after we (USA) had started fighting alongside the Northern Alliance in Afghanistan and after some initial problems we were making great progress and pushing the Taliban back on all fronts.  What I found odd was that no matter what the question posed to Woosley was he ignored it so he could resume talking about our need to go back to Iraq.  He'd be asked about our progress in Afghanistan and he ignored the question and would talk about nothing but going back to Iraq.

So, after the war in Iraq started and the story from the Scottish paper came out we then learned additional facts about what the Bush/Cheney admin and the PNAC team around them were doing -- within not weeks or even days but hours Rumsfeld was coordinating an effort to push the Iraq plan.

Once the strongman Saddam was out of the way the country descended into warring factions that ultimately lead to the rise of ISIS in the northern reaches and with the war now waging in Syria, a war also enabled by the turmoil in the region, ISIS was able to extend to the west and into Syria. 

All of that propagated the migration of millions from the region and that has resulted in the rise of right wing nationalists in many countries in Europe, east and west.

When asked if we should have gone into Iraq Cheney still says it was the right thing to do -- he'll never admit a failure of this magnitude nor his role in tricking the incompetent Bush into it. 

The Britts and others went along for the ride in Iraq but the French knew better and opted out.  If only we had listened to the French just this one time...


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 07:01:28 am
Our Prime Minister (Howard) of the time was 'shown the evidence of WMD's' before he committed a few thousand of our troops in his visit to the USA so we were there on day 1 and to this day still doesn't admit it was based on a lie or that uni lateral action was wrong. As you say the fallout is on going.

The Chinese have much better tools of war toward the USA than guns and that is what the bluster is all about.

Interesting read on the WTO vs the USA, China and who has made claims against who. https://theconversation.com/why-trumps-wrong-about-wto-treating-us-unfairly-102562

The US is still one of the most protected economies of the world and protesting other countries for doing similar is  :bullshit:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 11, 2018, 07:08:23 am
Our Prime Minister (Howard) of the time was 'shown the evidence of WMD's' before he committed a few thousand of our troops in his visit to the USA so we were there on day 1 and to this day still doesn't admit it was based on a lie or that uni lateral action was wrong. As you say the fallout is on going.

As foreigner, I'm wondering, why there is no any significant sign of voicing objections on that, like demonstration, or thru people representatives and etc until today ? Suppressed ?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 07:26:50 am
Partly because he got dumped by the opposition party who rolled into power for a thing called 'work choices' giving way to much power to employers and other unpopular ideological 'reforms' this resulted in him losing his 'safe seat' in 2007 so was thrown from being PM to out of politics overnight  >:D

As a side player we were sold a lie by others is why I suspect we didn't as a nation see the need to lynch him personally in the Legal sense but he got his reward for not listening to the people in 2007 some of which was likely anti Iraq war related.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 07:36:37 am
Our Prime Minister (Howard) of the time was 'shown the evidence of WMD's' before he committed a few thousand of our troops in his visit to the USA so we were there on day 1 and to this day still doesn't admit it was based on a lie or that uni lateral action was wrong. As you say the fallout is on going.

The Chinese have much better tools of war toward the USA than guns and that is what the bluster is all about.

Interesting read on the WTO vs the USA, China and who has made claims against who. https://theconversation.com/why-trumps-wrong-about-wto-treating-us-unfairly-102562

The US is still one of the most protected economies of the world and protesting other countries for doing similar is  :bullshit:


There are two eras here with respect to the USA -- Before Trump and after Trump.  Tariffs are useful when there is disparity in wages, working conditions and environmental conditions but when there is little or no disparity there should be no tariffs.  In the absence of tariffs when one nation has much lower wages and less is spent on workplace safety and environmental controls the effect is to move production to the cheaper country which increases pollution because the product is no longer being made where compliance is tougher, it increases the injuries and death when workers have less adequate workplace safety controls, and it puts a downward pressure on wages in the more developed country.  All these things are evident and have been evident for decades.  OTH, there is little to be gained from applying tariffs when the two trading nations have a comparable standard of living, wages, and workplace safety and environmental controls EXCEPT when one country is cheating in some way.

The truly odd thing is that Trump is applying tariffs to nations with comparable economies and the only justification is when a nation is cheating in some way.  Much of Trumps actions are political in nature as he's playing to a base that's been shit on by multinational companies and are susceptible to demagogues like Trump. 

I hope we can weather the Trump admin, but, sadly, there is little hope the opposition will change its ways and we can expect more of the same if he's reelected.  To make matters worse the situation in the USA is not the only tragedy in the world as many other western nations are being swept up by nationalism.  So, Trump is our problem and his problem has ramifications beyond our borders, but Trump is not to blame for the rise of nationalism in the other western nations.  We went through this last century and it cost 60M lives -- the next time could be 10X that ... or worse.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 08:18:21 am
That's why I said a page or so ago Canada should show the US the middle finger after being hit with Tariffs to the US on raw materials.

Protectionism will ultimately fail as it hides the outside world from industries that haven't come close to keeping up and the deficit economics can't be sustained forever by any government. So you either get smarter or innovate faster than the lower wage or lower cost countries or perish in the long term.

Nothing anti Chinese in this but broadly speaking China is still copying the West not creating new innovations and this is where we can compete 'for now'. It is still a cultural and population mix issue but they are learning very very fast. By the next Generation anyone left over from the Cultural revolution will be dead or out of power and the educated (Western in a lot of cases) University graduates will be running the country.

As Chinas wages and expectations grow however their manufacturing will have to change or suffer like a lot of Western manufacturing is suffering at their hands now. We are seeing some of this already with a shift into other parts of SE Asia to manufacture to keep tracking low wages.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 11, 2018, 12:38:29 pm
Meng Wangzhou sounds a lot like Wun Hung Low  :-DD

Her comrades in Communist Party are screaming she should be set free. Something to do with Huawei's PLA goon that has a very close relationship with the corrupt communist government maybe? Trusted companies that have integrity like Ericsson will do well out of this.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on December 11, 2018, 01:15:07 pm
Well they would be doing well out of this if they didn't have O2 and softbank going after them for £100m+ in compensation for their recent cock up.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: StillTrying on December 11, 2018, 01:44:45 pm
Imagine if Micro$oft were a Chinese company. :)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 11, 2018, 02:10:24 pm
It is getting closer to it, it is already an Indian company.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 11, 2018, 04:43:02 pm
re: "I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?"

Not all UN member nations recognize the authority of the ICC - only 123 signed.  USA is one of the non-signers.  However, all 198 nations that signed the NPT (by signing) declared their willingness to comply by the treaty's rules of adjudication and punishment.  Absence more signatures or withdrawals, ICC would be able to handle situations with only 62% of the NPT nations.

NPT is the Treaty with the most signatories, so, it would be mathematically impossible to find "another UN authority" that covers every NPT nations (except of course the General Assembly which is everyone in the UN, and probably what most people consider as the UN).

Thanks. Not surprising the USA hasn't signed this one along with all the others that give the UN some power to act.  ::)

Wonder when the USA will pay the UN the money they have owed for a few decades too but I am sure non compliance with a UN agreement isn't and issue in this case 'because reasons' :box:


USA is already paying the most.  We pay 22% of UN funding.  All nations of Europe put together pays 33%, that is all of them together.  You can hardly say we are not paying our "fair" share.  In some cases, those are activities we have not agreed to or they are incompatible with our laws, we are hardly owing the money when we never agreed to fund that to being with.

To avoid getting into a political discussion, I am just sharing facts here to explain the incompatibility.  Lets not discuss the pro/con of any political stands.

In so far as ICC is concern, there is some USA Constitutional issues.  USA is one of the few countries that go with much of of John Locke's ideas (the British Political Philosopher in the 1600's) -  we believe in individual rights being innate to the individual rather than individual rights being granted by the government.  Thus the US Constitution limits what the government can do - negotiating a treaty is a power given to the Federal Government, but eliminating Constitutional Rights of our individuals is not a power given to the Federal Government.

So, unless ICC has an exemption to exclude all issues that may step on our Bill of Rights and other Constitutional limits placed on the government (of which Criminal Justice is a part), there would be a Constitutional issue.  (Again, I am not discussing should/should not or good/not good, I am laying out facts to understand where the two sets don't intersect to explain why they are incompatible) Free Speech for example - some western countries has laws in place to limit or penalize Holocaust denial (Holocaust as in NAZI killing of Jews during WWII).  Such law would be smack against our Free Speech rights.  If it is a US law, it would be ruled unconstitutional, and eliminated from our laws.  I can name a ton of such incompatibilities, but one is enough for illustration.

Yeah, our Constitution can be amended; but that would be a very high bar.  Politicians can probably dance around things enough to get anything pass, but handing it over is pretty much giving the shop away (ie: outsourcing enforcement of a whole chunk of our Constitution).  So, I am of the school that ICC is incompatible with our Constitution.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 07:41:29 pm
As anticipated, China has arrested a Canadian and did so a few days ago it appears. 

"Former Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig was the person detained, two sources had said earlier. Kovrig works for the International Crisis Group, an independent conflict resolution think-tank which said it was seeking his prompt and safe release."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-huawei/canadian-detained-in-china-as-huawei-cfo-returns-to-court-idUSKBN1OA0M4 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-huawei/canadian-detained-in-china-as-huawei-cfo-returns-to-court-idUSKBN1OA0M4)


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 11, 2018, 09:44:49 pm
As anticipated, China has arrested a Canadian and did so a few days ago it appears. 

"Former Canadian diplomat Michael Kovrig was the person detained, two sources had said earlier. Kovrig works for the International Crisis Group, an independent conflict resolution think-tank which said it was seeking his prompt and safe release."

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-huawei/canadian-detained-in-china-as-huawei-cfo-returns-to-court-idUSKBN1OA0M4 (https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-china-huawei/canadian-detained-in-china-as-huawei-cfo-returns-to-court-idUSKBN1OA0M4)


Brian
The brinkmen will have their way.  :palm:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 11, 2018, 10:20:46 pm
The brinkmen will have their way.  :palm:

Collaborating with foreign force to weaken reign of Chinese government, especially allying with the West and human right organizations, is punishable up to death in China. It's written in the laws, so what's wrong with Chinese government's move to seize that person?

It is always been used as a political tools -- to allow certain foreign citizen's unlawful actions in China, but when the time comes, this privilege can be taken back by Chinese government at will.

Make no illusion. In China, everyone has to work for Chinese government, even seemingly anti-China propaganda spreaders, such as the Youtuber laowhy86 and his South African friend.

Their videos are very clear that they do bash on Chinese society, but not badmouthing the actual government a lot. Chinese government uses them to spread the idea that it is the corrupted society made the government, not the corrupted government made the society.

Even the hard core anti-Communist cult, Falungong, is kind of working for the current Chinese government. If you read their newspaper, you will see they never attack China's current president. It always attacks the system and more often, the former president, Jiang. Also, their papers are almost intentionally written like BS to discredit themselves.

The goal is very clear -- everyone gets what they want. Current Chinese government wants a weapon to attack the previous government, as it is an ongoing political mass murder. The people who join the cult never truly believed it and only wants US EB4 green card, and the organizer wants donation form big rich Chinese companies seeking political help.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 11, 2018, 10:48:36 pm
OK, so China is going to execute a Canadian national because ... reasons -- give me a break.  If China did anything like that they'd lose billions in business overnight through a combination of voluntary departures and ones imposed by law in Canada, the USA, and likely many other western countries.

Early this year when Trump began the tariff fight China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed more tariffs and China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those new tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed still more tariffs and at this point China, realizing that the balance of trade would hurt them more than the USA, realized the the USA was finally exercising the clout the US market provides and China all of a sudden was more circumspect.  This is the game they play and unless confronted they will continue to play and benefit from playing.  When the west realizes the clout there money has and begins to exercise it then China will be forced to play fair, but until then China will continue to play this game.

In truth, China has allies in the multi-national companies doing business in China and this was very evident in the wake of the Tiananmen Square slaughter as many western companies, hoping to do business in China, lobbied there governments to not penalize China for the brutal crackdown.  For many, money trumps morality.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 11, 2018, 11:00:55 pm
OK, so China is going to execute a Canadian national because ... reasons -- give me a break.  If China did anything like that they'd lose billions in business overnight through a combination of voluntary departures and ones imposed by law in Canada, the USA, and likely many other western countries.

Early this year when Trump began the tariff fight China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed more tariffs and China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those new tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed still more tariffs and at this point China, realizing that the balance of trade would hurt them more than the USA, realized the the USA was finally exercising the clout the US market provides and China all of a sudden was more circumspect.  This is the game they play and unless confronted they will continue to play and benefit from playing.  When the west realizes the clout there money has and begins to exercise it then China will be forced to play fair, but until then China will continue to play this game.

In truth, China has allies in the multi-national companies doing business in China and this was very evident in the wake of the Tiananmen Square slaughter as many western companies, hoping to do business in China, lobbied there governments to not penalize China for the brutal crackdown.  For many, money trumps morality.


Brian
You repeatedly say that China's response was "VERY aggressive" but the total tariffs imposed by the Chinese are only half of the US imposed ones, each Chinese step only matched the one from the US at worst and each and every step was a response to a move first made by the US. How can that be construed as very aggressive, other than viewing the moves made by the US as considerably more aggressive?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 11, 2018, 11:12:48 pm
Collaborating with foreign force to weaken reign of Chinese government, especially allying with the West and human right organizations, is punishable up to death in China. It's written in the laws, so what's wrong with Chinese government's move to seize that person?

It is always been used as a political tools -- to allow certain foreign citizen's unlawful actions in China, but when the time comes, this privilege can be taken back by Chinese government at will.

Make no illusion. In China, everyone has to work for Chinese government, even seemingly anti-China propaganda spreaders, such as the Youtuber laowhy86 and his South African friend.

Their videos are very clear that they do bash on Chinese society, but not badmouthing the actual government a lot. Chinese government uses them to spread the idea that it is the corrupted society made the government, not the corrupted government made the society.

Even the hard core anti-Communist cult, Falungong, is kind of working for the current Chinese government. If you read their newspaper, you will see they never attack China's current president. It always attacks the system and more often, the former president, Jiang. Also, their papers are almost intentionally written like BS to discredit themselves.

The goal is very clear -- everyone gets what they want. Current Chinese government wants a weapon to attack the previous government, as it is an ongoing political mass murder. The people who join the cult never truly believed it and only wants US EB4 green card, and the organizer wants donation form big rich Chinese companies seeking political help.

Winston and Matt as residents (not citizens) of China obviously tread a very fine line when it comes to the Chinese Government and being critical of it for obvious reasons they like living and remaining out of jail! I would suggest to you they talk as openly as they can about the 'reality' of living in China and people and what China is like behind the western biased news media. There is positives and negatives like ALL COUNTRIES have!

No Country or People of that country (mine included) should not get so butt hurt every time someone passes critical observations about them. China and the People have a long way to go to understand that concept.

Your modern country was founded only 70 years ago when Mao and his Friends revolted against a legitimate regime (be is as corrupt and despotic as it was) but clearly they took issue with the status quo. Did they magically rise up no it started decades before that. But they were 'critical' of a government to the point of armed revolt.

So deal with it no one is perfect and governments even less so.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 11, 2018, 11:24:24 pm
Latest news... she's been granted bail!

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/huawei-meng-wanzhou-bail-hearing-vancouver-1.4940849 (https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/british-columbia/huawei-meng-wanzhou-bail-hearing-vancouver-1.4940849)

Added on.... quote from news article:

Quote
Huawei's chief financial officer will be released on $10 million bail — with five guarantors — as she awaits possible extradition to the United States on fraud charges, a B.C. Supreme Court justice has ruled.

Meng Wanzhou, 46, was granted bail after three days of hearings concluded on Tuesday afternoon.

In delivering his reasons for granting the bail, Justice William Ehrcke said $7 million of that bail payment must be made in cash.

Meng must also report to a bail supervisor, maintain good behaviour, live at a house owned by her husband, Liu Xiaozong, and stay in that house between the hours of 11 p.m. and 6 a.m.

She will not be allowed to leave the province of B.C.

She must also surrender her passports, wear an electronic monitoring bracelet on her ankle and live under surveillance 24/7. Meng has been ordered to pay the surveillance costs herself.

That really sucks. It sounds like she has some time though to figure things out in the comfort of her own home though...

Quote
The extradition process could take months. Meng is scheduled to appear in court again on Feb. 6 to set a date for those proceedings.

Once she is in the US it will not be so cozy, so they will try to procrastinate and delay as much as possible the stay in Canada until maybe something happens, maybe a miracle, or there is some other high-profile capture which could perhaps initiate an "exchange" of sorts of prisoners. Not good! I don't think China will take it sitting down, but then again Canada is going to have to hand her over to the USA, I don't see them getting out of that at all.

One more thing... CNN's new article:

CHINESE COMPANIES THREATENING TO BAN EMPLOYEES USING APPLE PHONES!   :-DD  :scared:  :palm:

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/11/business/huawei-apple-china-tech-us/index.html (https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/11/business/huawei-apple-china-tech-us/index.html)

It's getting out of hand...
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 11, 2018, 11:37:09 pm
OK, so China is going to execute a Canadian national because ... reasons -- give me a break.  If China did anything like that they'd lose billions in business overnight through a combination of voluntary departures and ones imposed by law in Canada, the USA, and likely many other western countries.

Bullshit. If you come to China, you obey Chinese law. Don't like it? Then don't come. If a government can't enforce its own law, then what power does it has?
If Donald Trump breaks a Chinese law in China outside US embassy or consulate, Chinese government can also seize him. He will of course receive a courtesy, but I can't say the same for other US citizens.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 12, 2018, 12:25:45 am

And speaking of hacking
Quote
The plan for Meng's potential release calls for round-the-clock physical surveillance combined with an electronic ankle monitor using GPS to mark her location. The heads of two security firms testified to the reliability of their products.

But Gibb-Carsley noted that neither man could guarantee Meng wouldn't escape. He asked them about the possibility of their electronic systems being compromised.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 12, 2018, 12:32:34 am
OK, so China is going to execute a Canadian national because ... reasons -- give me a break.  If China did anything like that they'd lose billions in business overnight through a combination of voluntary departures and ones imposed by law in Canada, the USA, and likely many other western countries.

Bullshit. If you come to China, you obey Chinese law. Don't like it? Then don't come. If a government can't enforce its own law, then what power does it has?
If Donald Trump breaks a Chinese law in China outside US embassy or consulate, Chinese government can also seize him. He will of course receive a courtesy, but I can't say the same for other US citizens.

Ahem, just to be annoying...  Let me point out, in your scenario, China would need Trumps approval to arrest Trump.

Trump as US President visits China is a visiting diplomat with full diplomatic immunity inside or outside of a USA embassy.  Diplomatic immunity is a legal concept under international law accepted by both USA and China and not mere courtesy because Xi and Trump are good pals.

So, China need to US States Department for an okay to arrest this diplomat who is Trump.  Arresting such a high level person means US State Department has to go all the way up to the President for decision.  So, from this layman's understanding, China needs Trump's approval to arrest Trump.

Now for any other US Citizen that is not a high level government employee - you are absolutely right.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 12, 2018, 12:42:21 am
Ahem, just to be annoying...  Let me point out, in your scenario, China would need Trumps approval to arrest Trump.

I stand corrected.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 12, 2018, 12:59:08 am
Ahem, just to be annoying...  Let me point out, in your scenario, China would need Trumps approval to arrest Trump.

I stand corrected.

Just friendly overhead fire to lighten your day.

[Just so everyone else doesn't think I was starting a fight with that earlier reply...  BullSkull and I had friendly personal message exchanges before, so I know he would consider my post there fun poking from a friend...]
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 12, 2018, 05:57:00 am
OK, so China is going to execute a Canadian national because ... reasons -- give me a break.  If China did anything like that they'd lose billions in business overnight through a combination of voluntary departures and ones imposed by law in Canada, the USA, and likely many other western countries.

Early this year when Trump began the tariff fight China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed more tariffs and China was VERY aggressive in response.  Trump imposed those new tariffs and China responded with there own.  Trump then imposed still more tariffs and at this point China, realizing that the balance of trade would hurt them more than the USA, realized the the USA was finally exercising the clout the US market provides and China all of a sudden was more circumspect.  This is the game they play and unless confronted they will continue to play and benefit from playing.  When the west realizes the clout there money has and begins to exercise it then China will be forced to play fair, but until then China will continue to play this game.

In truth, China has allies in the multi-national companies doing business in China and this was very evident in the wake of the Tiananmen Square slaughter as many western companies, hoping to do business in China, lobbied there governments to not penalize China for the brutal crackdown.  For many, money trumps morality.


Brian
You repeatedly say that China's response was "VERY aggressive" but the total tariffs imposed by the Chinese are only half of the US imposed ones, each Chinese step only matched the one from the US at worst and each and every step was a response to a move first made by the US. How can that be construed as very aggressive, other than viewing the moves made by the US as considerably more aggressive?


The aggression of which I spoke was about the verbal threats China made repeatedly but after about the third round of tariff and counter-tariff China was much less aggressive verbally and in fact you could detect a degree of resignation as they realized they were on the losing end of the fight.  The US, as a country, is the largest market by far, and with that comes clout, clout the US had not used while China continued to steel IP and undercut US goods.  As I mentioned in a prior, I oppose tariffs between relative equals but support tariffs when the two countries are not equal.  So, the US and western nations with higher wages and better workplace safety and environmental controls should impose a tariff equal to about 2/3 of the cost advantage the other nation has.  In this way production will not automatically move to places where pollution controls etc are less and therefore pollution actually increases.  This would also reduce the wage stagnation problem and lessen the wage disparity that has grown to monumental levels in the last four decades.  And here's the last point ... when the wage levels and workplace safety and environmental controls are improved in the other country the tariff goes down automatically.  This will result in an incentive to raise wage levels and improve workplace safety and environmental controls.

But, the rules are written by people that don't care about the working class and in fact the era we live in, the era that's about 40 years old, is largely governed by the idea that cost is everything and chief among the cost centers is labor cost.  The flat-lining of wages for the lower 90% has coincided exactly with the unheard of levels of income disparity and these two facts are not unrelated.  Trump's ham fisted approach is not what I'd propose and applying tariffs to relative equals is unnecessary and unwise unless there is some cheating that warrants a penalty. 


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2018, 06:09:54 am
The aggression of which I spoke was about the verbal threats China made repeatedly but after about the third round of tariff and counter-tariff China was much less aggressive verbally and in fact you could detect a degree of resignation as they realized they were on the losing end of the fight.  The US, as a country, is the largest market by far, and with that comes clout, clout the US had not used while China continued to steel IP and undercut US goods.  As I mentioned in a prior, I oppose tariffs between relative equals but support tariffs when the two countries are not equal.  So, the US and western nations with higher wages and better workplace safety and environmental controls should impose a tariff equal to about 2/3 of the cost advantage the other nation has.  In this way production will not automatically move to places where pollution controls etc are less and therefore pollution actually increases.  This would also reduce the wage stagnation problem and lessen the wage disparity that has grown to monumental levels in the last four decades.  And here's the last point ... when the wage levels and workplace safety and environmental controls are improved in the other country the tariff goes down automatically.  This will result in an incentive to raise wage levels and improve workplace safety and environmental controls.

But, the rules are written by people that don't care about the working class and in fact the era we live in, the era that's about 40 years old, is largely governed by the idea that cost is everything and chief among the cost centers is labor cost.  The flat-lining of wages for the lower 90% has coincided exactly with the unheard of levels of income disparity and these two facts are not unrelated.  Trump's ham fisted approach is not what I'd propose and applying tariffs to relative equals is unnecessary and unwise unless there is some cheating that warrants a penalty. 


Brian
Looking at it on a per country basis doesn't make much sense. The US market is third behind the EU and Asian market for China. The reality is that the US needs China more than China needs the US. If all trade between the US and China were to cease tomorrow, the US would certainly have it harder than China. The Chinese won't go that far though, as they own far too much US assets. They'd be shaking money out of their own pockets.

Protectionism never works, regardless of the motivation. It can only lead to isolating your own country while the rest of the world happily overtakes you, if they hadn't already.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 12, 2018, 06:14:43 am
1. <snip> while China continued to steel IP and undercut US goods.

2. So, the US and western nations with higher wages and better workplace safety and environmental controls should impose a tariff equal to about 2/3 of the cost advantage the other nation has. <snip> This will result in an incentive to raise wage levels and improve workplace safety and environmental controls.

3. But, the rules are written by people that don't care about the working class <snip>

1. I agree. My guess the end of the trade war is China will give up stealing western IPs tp certain degree, under a condition that the West promises never to sanction China by limiting high tech export to China. From Chinese government's perspective, the West uses high tech sanction to protest dictatorship and Taiwan problem. If China is given a green unconditionally on high tech, China will have no excuse to fund cloning of Western technology.

2. BS. If you can't compete, you deserve to die. China will deal with pollution and many other social problems, but human competing and phasing out human will never change. That's the thrust of natural selection.

3. Politicians know what is good for the human as a race, not the humanity BS. If evolution requires, everyone not up to the standard should and can die.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 12, 2018, 06:33:00 am
1: Chinese 'people' will get better at thinking for themselves and will start creating innovation instead of copying it. You really don't won't to go into discussing Taiwan or we may then have to get into the Chinese invasion of Tibet or expansionist claims in the south China Sea etc. (way off topic and won't end well)!

2: Agreed in principal. As I posted yesterday agreed keep in front by innovation, creation and manufacturing productivity or die. China is already having to deal with rising wages and some of the other issues western economies face.

3: In your one party totalitarian state you are told to believe implicitly in the infallibility of politicians. This is absolutely false politicians are driven by self interest and are fallible like all of us no matter which country. The idea of 'The Chinese Communist Party' being in charge while some of it's members are worth billions is I am afraid to say 'quaint' being very polite. Even allowing for some western media exaggeration https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/chinas-200-richest-lawmakers-gathering-congress-worth-415-billion/ (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/04/chinas-200-richest-lawmakers-gathering-congress-worth-415-billion/)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 12, 2018, 07:34:04 am
The aggression of which I spoke was about the verbal threats China made repeatedly but after about the third round of tariff and counter-tariff China was much less aggressive verbally and in fact you could detect a degree of resignation as they realized they were on the losing end of the fight.  The US, as a country, is the largest market by far, and with that comes clout, clout the US had not used while China continued to steel IP and undercut US goods.  As I mentioned in a prior, I oppose tariffs between relative equals but support tariffs when the two countries are not equal.  So, the US and western nations with higher wages and better workplace safety and environmental controls should impose a tariff equal to about 2/3 of the cost advantage the other nation has.  In this way production will not automatically move to places where pollution controls etc are less and therefore pollution actually increases.  This would also reduce the wage stagnation problem and lessen the wage disparity that has grown to monumental levels in the last four decades.  And here's the last point ... when the wage levels and workplace safety and environmental controls are improved in the other country the tariff goes down automatically.  This will result in an incentive to raise wage levels and improve workplace safety and environmental controls.

But, the rules are written by people that don't care about the working class and in fact the era we live in, the era that's about 40 years old, is largely governed by the idea that cost is everything and chief among the cost centers is labor cost.  The flat-lining of wages for the lower 90% has coincided exactly with the unheard of levels of income disparity and these two facts are not unrelated.  Trump's ham fisted approach is not what I'd propose and applying tariffs to relative equals is unnecessary and unwise unless there is some cheating that warrants a penalty. 


Brian
Looking at it on a per country basis doesn't make much sense. The US market is third behind the EU and Asian market for China. The reality is that the US needs China more than China needs the US. If all trade between the US and China were to cease tomorrow, the US would certainly have it harder than China. The Chinese won't go that far though, as they own far too much US assets. They'd be shaking money out of their own pockets.

Protectionism never works, regardless of the motivation. It can only lead to isolating your own country while the rest of the world happily overtakes you, if they hadn't already.

You are delusional if you think the US would be harder hit than China.  The value of goods and services each country has with the other results in a balance of trade that hugely favors China so it, for example, the trade was to zero out then China would be impacted about 2X as much in dollar value as the USA and given the relative monetary systems the effect would in fact be more like 4X as much or even greater.  Mind you I'm not suggesting we engage in a trade war but having a balance of trade in the ballpark of -$500B every year is not sustainable.


Brian

The EU and Asia are not a country but a continent or group of nations and the USA is most definitely the country with the largest market on the planet and with that market has clout. 
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 12, 2018, 07:45:03 am
1. <snip> while China continued to steel IP and undercut US goods.

2. So, the US and western nations with higher wages and better workplace safety and environmental controls should impose a tariff equal to about 2/3 of the cost advantage the other nation has. <snip> This will result in an incentive to raise wage levels and improve workplace safety and environmental controls.

3. But, the rules are written by people that don't care about the working class <snip>

1. I agree. My guess the end of the trade war is China will give up stealing western IPs tp certain degree, under a condition that the West promises never to sanction China by limiting high tech export to China. From Chinese government's perspective, the West uses high tech sanction to protest dictatorship and Taiwan problem. If China is given a green unconditionally on high tech, China will have no excuse to fund cloning of Western technology.

2. BS. If you can't compete, you deserve to die. China will deal with pollution and many other social problems, but human competing and phasing out human will never change. That's the thrust of natural selection.

3. Politicians know what is good for the human as a race, not the humanity BS. If evolution requires, everyone not up to the standard should and can die.


2.  There are about 7B people on the planet and the vast majority of them live in poverty.  There will never be an end to the outsourcing and when China gets too pricey the multi-nationals will take there business elsewhere -- remember Japan?

3.  Social Darwinism was never a good idea and supporting the extermination of the less worthy caries several problems not the least of which is who gets to decide who is worthy and who is not.  This ideology was central to the Nazi's and it had many followers, then and now.  You can make claims for and against, but ultimately, if one group gets to decide who can live and who must die then this is what happens.  The group decides such-and-such must be eliminated and when they are all gone is the world the utopia they envisioned?  No, it isn't and before long they realize that others in there midst need to be pruned and when they are gone the process repeats until there's no one left.  Purging the world of people you don't think belong has but one endgame.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 12, 2018, 07:46:45 am
How long can the USA sustain federal debt levels above 100% of GDP and who owns a chunk of that debt? As I said yesterday China doesn't need guns against the USA. Trump led BS and Bluster is not a game you can win in the long term.

Protectionism and cutting taxes to 'save' your economy, industries and jobs hasn't worked. Unfortunately to turn around your system built on the ideals of low tax, minimal (perceived) government and the 'American Dream' is going to take some real pain and commitment and to elect that unelectable someone or party willing to do it isn't anywhere on the horizon.

Sorry for going way off topic too  :palm:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 12, 2018, 08:56:04 am
Japan was different game back when,,,

Korean war needed a supply base and Japan took off.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 12, 2018, 09:05:41 am
There will never be an end to the outsourcing and when China gets too pricey the multi-nationals will take there business elsewhere -- remember Japan?

Nope, this time is not the same, either Japan (in 50s up to 80s), Taiwan (90s) , Korea (90s) ... are not the same as China, as these countries basically US's puppies, when they asked to bark, they will bark & wiggles.

China perceived as a puppy ... err... dog ... wild wolf that bites ... lethally if happened.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 12, 2018, 11:19:43 am
and there is no bias in that opinion
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2018, 11:46:32 am
You are delusional if you think the US would be harder hit than China.  The value of goods and services each country has with the other results in a balance of trade that hugely favors China so it, for example, the trade was to zero out then China would be impacted about 2X as much in dollar value as the USA and given the relative monetary systems the effect would in fact be more like 4X as much or even greater.  Mind you I'm not suggesting we engage in a trade war but having a balance of trade in the ballpark of -$500B every year is not sustainable.


Brian

The EU and Asia are not a country but a continent or group of nations and the USA is most definitely the country with the largest market on the planet and with that market has clout.
I know Americans don't like to hear it, but the US economy would fall flat on its arse if China decided to call it quits. Look at what gets sold in US shops and stores. It's mostly Chinese made. There's no other country or combination of countries which can fill the gap quickly enough to prevent disaster. It's not just that though. The Chinese own a lot in the US. That's a lot of leverage. Again, the Chinese aren't stupid enough to do that exactly because they own a lot of US assets and about 5% of US debt. You don't choke the life out of your own investments, even if the other threatens to put his own head into the noose.

I'm not getting into a discussion over the balance of trade that gets touted so often, but so few people actually seem to understand. Much more than "big number bad" it generally doesn't appear to be, despite actual economists being very clear about that not being a bad thing.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 12, 2018, 11:53:38 am
The Chinese own a lot in the US. That's a lot of leverage. Again, the Chinese aren't stupid enough to do that exactly because they own a lot of US assets and about 5% of US debt. You don't choke the life out of your own investments, even if the other threatens to put his own head into the noose.


Sorry you understated it a little it is actually over 20% of the USA's government debt.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 12, 2018, 11:58:10 am
Sorry you understated it a little it is actually over 20% of the USA's government debt.
Various sources seem to disagree a bit on that. The actual number is generally the same at around $1.15 trillion, but the percentage differs by quite a bit. I guess it depends on what you actually take into account. It's a lot either way.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 12, 2018, 12:04:17 pm
It was something I had heard. Quick check it seems the Chinese only own 20%+ of the foreign owned bit. For some strange reason the US Goverment is the biggest owner of government debt in some figures (got to love economists and accountants) :o
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 12, 2018, 12:44:48 pm
Just to focus back to the main topic... Apparently it is highly unusual to arrest an individual person that is part of a company when the said company is violating some kind of law. Usually the entire company is sued (like happened to ZTE?) or penalized in some way. So the fact that US is doing this to Meng is being termed "aggressive" and unusual, hence the Chinese assertion of this being a vicious and unfair way of dealing with this issue. Then again, if the US has physical possession of this "asset" (i.e. Meng) then they can exert more pressure on China to resolve things (arm-twisting) and Trump himself even admitted that he could use this (and anything else for that matter) in his trade negotations with China. Perhaps Trump may intervene in letting Meng return back to China in exchange for some sugar-coated deal and then they can work on settling the matter through punishing the company rather than the individual.

I guess one of the main points here that bothers many people is that Meng is being punished individually and facing lengthy prison time when the company itself and many decisions that were made are the result of numerous parties in China. I don't believe Meng masterminded whatever she is being accused of (we still don't know, but people seem to think it has to do with using the US financial system with a subsidiary of Huawei called Skycom that was found selling to Iran). Does Meng deserve to take the fall for this huge company? What other executives are involved? Can this not be resolved through suing or sanctioning the company? Many governments and companies around the world are already avoiding Huawei because of a (yet unproven) fear that there are backdoors in their technology that Chinese government can use to spy. ZTE almost got killed entirely until Trump stepped in and made a last minute deal:

https://gizmodo.com/trump-is-saving-chinas-zte-for-some-reason-and-congress-1826623235 (https://gizmodo.com/trump-is-saving-chinas-zte-for-some-reason-and-congress-1826623235)

So now US is making an example of Huawei, perhaps due to the ZTE fiasco, they wanted to drive home the point even harder this time around? I can only see this as a political arm-twisting "let's get the asset while we can" decision to make sure Meng is retained so that the Chinese can't slip through or delay the process. Unfortunately Canada is caught in the middle of this, but this could have happened to Australia or perhaps any other country that has an extradition agreement with the USA (and there are lots of them).


 
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 12, 2018, 03:12:28 pm

Make no illusion. In China, everyone has to work for Chinese government, even seemingly anti-China propaganda spreaders, such as the Youtuber laowhy86 and his South African friend.

I was wondering why China tolerated that guy.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on December 12, 2018, 03:14:45 pm
Everyone needs a bogeyman to point at and say "look at the irrational fool".

Back in the 1980s my father worked for a company who started another company on the side. The second company placed an advert in one of the local computer magazines advertising their services as fixed rate but really expensive. First company pointed at this in their adverts and said they were insane and got all the business. Same thing.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 12, 2018, 05:00:32 pm
@edy: Sarbanes-Oxley Act establishes top executives' Individual responsibility for certain violations of financial regulations. They become individually accountable. This is in a different area maybe, but illustrates that individual managers may be held accountable.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: jmelson on December 12, 2018, 05:14:52 pm
Just to focus back to the main topic... Apparently it is highly unusual to arrest an individual person that is part of a company when the said company is violating some kind of law.
There definitely have been arrests when export restrictions were violated.  I remember back in 2001, McDonnell-Douglas sold an old CNC machine tool to a permitted aviation shop in China.  That shop then transferred the machine to a military plant.  The company eventually paid a fine.  I'm not sure if jail time was sentenced, but I think some people were at least held in jail and then sentenced to time served.

Jon
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 12, 2018, 08:36:37 pm
Just to focus back to the main topic... Apparently it is highly unusual to arrest an individual person that is part of a company when the said company is violating some kind of law.
There definitely have been arrests when export restrictions were violated.  I remember back in 2001, McDonnell-Douglas sold an old CNC machine tool to a permitted aviation shop in China.  That shop then transferred the machine to a military plant.  The company eventually paid a fine.  I'm not sure if jail time was sentenced, but I think some people were at least held in jail and then sentenced to time served.

Jon

At times, arresting the individual is the only thing that make sense.  Take Costa Concordia sinking for example, 32 people drown because the Captain was reckless.  He took the ship off route and too close to shore.

To quote Daily Mail headline[1], "[the captain] admits he WAS showing off to ship's waiter, a friend on shore and passengers when he attempted fatal 'salute' to island".  You can sue the cruse ship company, penalize the company for X million dollars and jail the conference room for 16 years - what justice would that serve?  It was the Captain, the most senior officer of the ship, he was reckless.   He was found guilty of manslaughter.  He was sentenced to 16 years in prison.  That was justice.

When the illegal/irresponsible act can be traced to particular individual(s), charging them make sense.  It follows that arresting them make sense also.

Applying that to the Huawei case, they will have to trace the act directly to the CFO for the arrest to be "proper".  It is possible that the hardball played by the USA may be just theater.  It would be better had Canada not been involved.  We kind of ask a friend to throw the rock instead of throwing it ourselves.

[Pure speculation here:]  That Canada became involve brings other thoughts into mind - could it be the case that she knew to avoid being on US soil?  If so, it may be indicative of her being aware of what she has done might not have been cool...

[1]
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2857448/I-wanted-kill-three-birds-one-stone-Costa-Concordia-s-Captain-Calamity-admits-showing-attempted-dangerous-salute-island.html (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2857448/I-wanted-kill-three-birds-one-stone-Costa-Concordia-s-Captain-Calamity-admits-showing-attempted-dangerous-salute-island.html)
 
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 12, 2018, 09:09:40 pm
Japan was different game back when,,,

Korean war needed a supply base and Japan took off.

Japan did not become a world industrial power post WWII because they housed some portion of the US military during the Korean war, they did so because US and western companies outsourced manufacturing to them as they were a place with low wages and smart people.  Before long the US and western companies that went to Japan to have products made more cheaply were put out of business by indigenous Japanese companies.  This same game is being played again.  It should also be mentioned that Korea itself benefited and rose to international significance thanks to some portion of world production moving there and the subsequent rise of indigenous Korean companies like Samsung. 

And that's really the point, the world is filled with people that production can be moved to when the current location gets too pricey.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 12, 2018, 09:13:30 pm
You are delusional if you think the US would be harder hit than China.  The value of goods and services each country has with the other results in a balance of trade that hugely favors China so it, for example, the trade was to zero out then China would be impacted about 2X as much in dollar value as the USA and given the relative monetary systems the effect would in fact be more like 4X as much or even greater.  Mind you I'm not suggesting we engage in a trade war but having a balance of trade in the ballpark of -$500B every year is not sustainable.


Brian

The EU and Asia are not a country but a continent or group of nations and the USA is most definitely the country with the largest market on the planet and with that market has clout.
I know Americans don't like to hear it, but the US economy would fall flat on its arse if China decided to call it quits. Look at what gets sold in US shops and stores. It's mostly Chinese made. There's no other country or combination of countries which can fill the gap quickly enough to prevent disaster. It's not just that though. The Chinese own a lot in the US. That's a lot of leverage. Again, the Chinese aren't stupid enough to do that exactly because they own a lot of US assets and about 5% of US debt. You don't choke the life out of your own investments, even if the other threatens to put his own head into the noose.

I'm not getting into a discussion over the balance of trade that gets touted so often, but so few people actually seem to understand. Much more than "big number bad" it generally doesn't appear to be, despite actual economists being very clear about that not being a bad thing.

Yes, given the fact that a substantial percentage of goods sold in the USA is made in China there would indeed be trouble if a full on trade war broke out.  The Chinese would see enormous numbers of people thrown out of work while the US would have to employ millions to rebuild our manufacturing base.  There would be problems for sure but the rebuilding would begin the turnaround.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 12, 2018, 09:25:50 pm
Yes, given the fact that a substantial percentage of goods sold in the USA is made in China there would indeed be trouble if a full on trade war broke out.  The Chinese would see enormous numbers of people thrown out of work while the US would have to employ millions to rebuild our manufacturing base.  There would be problems for sure but the rebuilding would begin the turnaround.
A huge number of jobs can be automated which are not automated while labour costs are low. China has lost an enormous number of jobs to low cost labour countries over the last decade. Most of its clothes manufacturing went to Indonesia and Bangladesh, because that was cheaper than automating the work. It has automated other work, and kept it on shore, but with much lower employment. If it becomes uneconomic to manufacture in China the assembly jobs which are hard to automate will move to countries with better tariff conditions. The jobs which can be automated may move to the US, creating new factories but little employment. The limited number of jobs those factories do create will require highly skilled people. Do enough suitable skills exist in the US?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 12, 2018, 09:41:46 pm
Classical economics would tell us that as the number of jobs shrinks globally wages would fall, not rise. At least thats what economists say about it.

This is why they want to liberalize services, so companies located in high wage countries can take advantage of the cheap labor in various ways. As the tale goes, the Global South nations "demanded it".

The problem with that plan is that things are changing so quickly, even with access to cheap labor its quite likely there will be a large net loss in jobs and sales nomatter what they do if they do that as planned.

Plus that will be throwing away the developed world's trust in the system and the social contract that was hard won after the Depression and WWII.

So many people might stop buying that the global economy might collapse.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 12, 2018, 10:37:02 pm

Yes, given the fact that a substantial percentage of goods sold in the USA is made in China there would indeed be trouble if a full on trade war broke out.  The Chinese would see enormous numbers of people thrown out of work while the US would have to employ millions to rebuild our manufacturing base.  There would be problems for sure but the rebuilding would begin the turnaround.


Brian

You seriously you think a complete breakdown of trade with China would hurt them but the USA would magically employ millions to rebuild its manufacturing base and turnaround using pixie dust and miracles?  :palm:

Perhaps the more likely outcome would be you rely more heavily on the other low cost countries for your imports and your manufacturing base remains in its current state or worse due to the damage this decision would to to your already perilous economic state.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on December 12, 2018, 10:39:09 pm
What manufacturing base. All the tools and equipment and materials are made in China  :-DD

You sold out. Can't go crawling back now. It'll be like the Russians eviscerating the heavy machinery and production capacity from the Eastern Bloc. A 30-40 year mission to build everything from scratch again.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 12, 2018, 10:46:50 pm
And now for a sobering thought....

Imagine China with a middle class consumer base of 300 million consumers.

Wait... that's a reality.. Chinese middle class is approximately the size of American population.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BrianHG on December 12, 2018, 11:01:51 pm
The low-down so far:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRH3_WgmFdU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vRH3_WgmFdU)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 13, 2018, 12:04:56 am
Makes more sense than the 'Truth' you might get on FOX or similar. Not one of subscribers but from time to time his videos run across my recommended ones on youtube and I do like his tongue in cheek style if not always his take on something.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 13, 2018, 12:46:00 am
Its impossible for any of us outsiders to even remotely grok the huge problems of mega-countries like India and China, which both have over 1.5 BILLION people.

Thats almost half the world's entire population in those two mega-countries alone.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2018, 12:52:43 am
What manufacturing base. All the tools and equipment and materials are made in China  :-DD

You sold out. Can't go crawling back now. It'll be like the Russians eviscerating the heavy machinery and production capacity from the Eastern Bloc. A 30-40 year mission to build everything from scratch again.
Meanwhile, China has plenty of other markets to sell to. Asia is a massively larger market and the EU is larger too. Cutting trade relations with the US may dampen growth somewhat, but it won't be the total reset scenario that the US has to face while they essentially build their manufacturing from scratch. The US needs China more than China needs the US.

But once more, China won't do that. They own a fair part of US assets and debt. Why would they burn down the house of which they own the kitchen? They want control, not complete destruction.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 13, 2018, 01:16:53 am
China is in a better economic situation than many other developing countries. But look at all that pollution. Thats a ticking time bomb as far as their health is concerned.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 13, 2018, 03:31:35 am

Yes, given the fact that a substantial percentage of goods sold in the USA is made in China there would indeed be trouble if a full on trade war broke out.  The Chinese would see enormous numbers of people thrown out of work while the US would have to employ millions to rebuild our manufacturing base.  There would be problems for sure but the rebuilding would begin the turnaround.


Brian

You seriously you think a complete breakdown of trade with China would hurt them but the USA would magically employ millions to rebuild its manufacturing base and turnaround using pixie dust and miracles?  :palm:

Perhaps the more likely outcome would be you rely more heavily on the other low cost countries for your imports and your manufacturing base remains in its current state or worse due to the damage this decision would to to your already perilous economic state.


Didn't say that, yes a full scale trade war will be devastating to both sides and that certainly includes the USA.  However, if the USA then focuses on rebuilding its manufacturing that WILL employ millions and that will offset and ultimately reverse the damage.


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: raptor1956 on December 13, 2018, 03:34:07 am
What manufacturing base. All the tools and equipment and materials are made in China  :-DD

You sold out. Can't go crawling back now. It'll be like the Russians eviscerating the heavy machinery and production capacity from the Eastern Bloc. A 30-40 year mission to build everything from scratch again.

Not quite, the USA has lost about half of its manufacturing base and if current trends continue it will all be gone in about 40-50 years.  But, that still mean we have a fairly substantial manufacturing base even now. 


Brian
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 13, 2018, 03:37:25 am
The last few factories Ive been in have been big spaces where a lot was going on but not very many almost no people. The era of large scale manufacturing employment - at least of human workers, is quite likely almost over.

"E-commerce" is being looked to as some kind of savior in many countries and thats an even bigger mistake.

Obviously those folk have no idea what e-commerce actually involves. Its not a job creator either, compared to what it replaces.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 13, 2018, 03:39:35 am
What manufacturing base. All the tools and equipment and materials are made in China  :-DD

You sold out. Can't go crawling back now. It'll be like the Russians eviscerating the heavy machinery and production capacity from the Eastern Bloc. A 30-40 year mission to build everything from scratch again.

Not quite, the USA has lost about half of its manufacturing base and if current trends continue it will all be gone in about 40-50 years.  But, that still mean we have a fairly substantial manufacturing base even now. 

Brian
The 50% the US lost is not evenly distributed. The US lost most of some types of manufacturing, and very little of others. The areas where there are few skilled people left in the US may be very hard to restart.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 13, 2018, 04:07:57 am

Didn't say that, yes a full scale trade war will be devastating to both sides and that certainly includes the USA.  However, if the USA then focuses on rebuilding its manufacturing that WILL employ millions and that will offset and ultimately reverse the damage.


Brian

 :bullshit: If it were viable in anyway why isn't it already being done? It would remain nonviable even in the case of China being excluded. Walmart and Costco would just switch to another Asian Country for it's stock.

Simple economics tells us it isn't viable and practical to make $20 toasters and kettles in a Western wage earning economy even with the most automated factories. Interested to know how you think the USA can make low end products to compete on price without using pixie dust?

One of your large remaining industries vehicles even with handouts and tariffs for protection is shrinking with continuing job losses. Not terminal yet but they had better sort it out before it gets added to the pile of industries in an unrecoverable spiral. Protection doesn't work!
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 13, 2018, 04:25:37 am
Thats just acting, beanflying. Posturing, Acting, look up "overcompensating".

The people who run this country are greedy. They don't want to invest money in educating people because under their ideology it makes no sense to employ them. So they have to pretend they are trying to preserve low paying jobs. This is happening all around the world in every country. The leaders actually couldn't care less.

They don't want the responsibility at this point in history of the expectations put on them that they will act in our best interests because they want to act in their best interests which are very different than ours.

They are pretending in a really evil and cynical way that anybody who can read and write and show up to work can get a good job but they know its bullshit, or course. That hasn't been true since the 70s. The same thing with health insurance.

In many cases they are doing this because they simply don't care about most people. Its not personal, they just don't care. They would like the growing numbers of poor people to just go away, and 'become somebody else's problem'. as they put it.

They are profoundly clueless people who sometimes almost always literally had everything handed to them on a silver platter. They don't know why voters expect so much since we're not the ones paying their campaign expenses. Most are just indifferent, however the worst of them are really evil, mean spirited people. Who would prefer to give the good jobs to others, elsewhere.

They resent the middle class perhaps because narcissists generally dislike "needing" people for any reason, so they tend to try to devalue the worth of people with practical skills. They are fighting an old war between management and labor.

Which is really short sighted.

I wouldn't be surprised if many other countries leadership right now were similar. It seems the world is going through hard times as far as leadership goes.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 13, 2018, 05:01:19 am
Leadership by popularity and because of connections made or inherited then driven by polls. Yep that works for the good of no one  :palm: Australia is not much better and you need to go back a good number of years to find good leadership and government 'for the people' rather than 'for our sides particular ideology'.

When I made my first trip to the US for work a bit over 25 years ago the thing that struck me even then was the disparity the top and bottom of society. The idea of helping yourself rise up and the American Dream were in places no where to be seen at that time. Dropping South of the Loop in Chicago for the first time was interesting to say the least. The factories I went to at the time looked like they were stuck in a time warp and in need of capital spend even then.

At least here we have a reasonable chance no matter how poor your family may be of going on to University (albeit you leave with a debt) and thanks to Universal Free Public Health even the less well off don't suffer poor health outcomes.

Viva La Revolution
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 13, 2018, 11:01:47 am
If Wun Hung Lo has not done anything wrong, why are the comrades in the People's Hypocrisy of China so upset? This issue has exposed the hypocrisy and elitism of the Central Committee of the so-called Communist Party. Any wonder why reporting the elite's personal wealth will make you disappear in China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 13, 2018, 03:51:08 pm
I think in China the lines between high-ranking businesspeople and government officials are blurred. In Meng's case, that certainly seems to be true. So their upper echelons respond accordingly.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 13, 2018, 03:58:49 pm
My thoughts on working and production and consumerism...

Ultimately the supply of cheap goods and labor whether it be in China or other countries has been able to supply a high standard of living in richer countries. By "higher" I don't necessarily mean better quality necessarily or healthier, although they would have more resources to pay for things that do help in those ways. What I mean is that people can buy goods and accumulate a lot of stuff. Consumerism, commercialism, and also waste. This situation though is unsustainable.

Part of what we may be seeing over the next stage in societal evolution is less focus on cheap disposable wasteful consumer goods and more on recycling, reusing, repurposing, refurbishing, etc. I'm not saying for every type of product, obviously tech keeps advancing. But there are things that it may be better to pay for quality and use it longer, than pay cheap and throw it out all the time.

Chinese and other cheap goods have allowed Canada, USA and other countries to keep relatively stagnant wages with little inflation over much longer periods of time than before. It has also allowed the growth of Walmart, Amazon, eBay and so on, and killed most of the brick-and-mortar stores like Sears that catered to the middle-class. However, my Chinese toaster and Chinese-made leather shoes do not last as long as my German toaster and Italian shoes.... But the average worker who is not seeing a raise in their salary in years does't care because they can still buy stuff and enjoy a comfortable wage.

For US, Canada and others to abandon China and other cheap-goods manufacturing countries would be more psychology than anything. They have to abandon this idea of buying cheap and disposable and keep stuff longer and repair things. No more phone-update cycle of 2 years. People need to keep their tech for 5 years and longer. That may be the most difficult pill to swallow.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 13, 2018, 05:05:59 pm
I think in China the lines between high-ranking businesspeople and government officials are blurred. In Meng's case, that certainly seems to be true. So their upper echelons respond accordingly.

What's wrong with Chinese government for demanding its people's lawful rights to be protected abroad?
AFAIK, she did nothing wrong while physically being abroad.
My understand of laws tells me that if I ordered assassination of Donald Trump while in China, and Chinese government refuses to expel me, then I can legally travel to US without being charged for anything.
And that's wrong for Chinese government capturing the two Canadian spies? They violated Chinese laws while physically staying in China. Anything wrong with that?

This is exactly why I chose not to go along H1B and green card path. I'm going back to China once my OPT ends.
The Western politics is filled with so much bullshit. Laws are not important, human right is.
According to what you guys say, if one supports dictator governments (in this case, Iran), even if he/she is lawful in his/her country, he/she should be punished.
And if one fights for human rights, even if he/she violated laws, he/she should be freed.

What a pile of bullshit it is. LAW IS ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. You mess with it, you get f*ed. You get around with it, you can do anything.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 13, 2018, 06:00:38 pm
The Western politics is filled with so much bullshit. Laws are not important, human right is.
According to what you guys say, if one supports dictator governments (in this case, Iran), even if he/she is lawful in his/her country, he/she should be punished.
And if one fights for human rights, even if he/she violated laws, he/she should be freed.

What laws ? And what human right are you talking about ?  :-//

Fresh from memory as these happened in 2018.

Look what happened to Russia that get bullied in the Sergei Skripal assassination accusation, even Russia "denies" it.

.. and now compared to ..

Jamal Khashoggi butchering at Turkey (NATO member), even officials from Arab Saudi "admitted" it, see how US and puppies (UK, Canada, Australia, French etc) reaction ? They can not even make up their mind how and where to stand in position on this matter, let alone react to it.  :palm:

Now, imagine this ...

China officials publicly admit they've sent a dead squad to kill one of China critic abroad, exactly like Arab Saudi did to Khashoggi ...

 ... must be really funny to watch how US & puppies reaction on this.  :-DD
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Wan Huang Luo on December 13, 2018, 06:15:24 pm
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 13, 2018, 06:23:03 pm
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 13, 2018, 06:41:27 pm
Corporations, nomatter who or what they are, should not be above the law.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 13, 2018, 06:47:31 pm
Before this thread gets derailed and locked by the admin, let's get back to the main subject!  ;)

Mrs. Meng Wanzhou is now released on bail, she is able to roam around Vancouver, but must stay in her house at night. Otherwise she is free to go about her daily business while awaiting official decisions. She wears an ankle bracelet and has a personal security detail following her (possibly as much for her protection as it is for making sure she doesn't flee).

What we know is that the USA could take it's sweet time actually to file the extradition papers. That means Mrs. Wanzhou could be stuck in her Vancouver home for months. The longer the better, perhaps, as it could give her time for some way out of the extradition. Sadly, Trump claims he is not above using this to "twist arms" during trade negotiations with China, something even his own party warned him against. Justice is blind and people should be treated fairly... not some political weapon to be used to gain advantages when needed.

Here is some more details on the story:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4756109/meng-wanzhou-extradition-jody-wilson-raybould/ (https://globalnews.ca/news/4756109/meng-wanzhou-extradition-jody-wilson-raybould/)

BTW: Mrs. Wanzhou ordered a whole bunch of boxes of pizza the other day while dozens of news reporters were outside her house filming and trying to probably get an interview with her or catch a photo. After the pizza guy delivered the pizza, she took a couple boxes in and gave all the other boxes to the reporters outside.  :-+

It sounds like Canada is being very careful each step of the way and making sure to drag it's heels to delay the process as long as possible, ensure justice is served, while Mrs. Wanzhou tries to live out her time as comfortably as possible in her Vancouver home, where she is free to roam around the city.

Meanwhile.... back in China we have 2 Canadians who are now being detained (in probably not very nice conditions, certainly not as nice as Mrs. Wanzhou) for doing what is seemingly considered anti-Chinese activities by the Chinese government, *in* China. Like that action is any surprise. The fact that China decided to act on it now is precisely because of Mrs. Wanzhou's arrest by Canadian authorities. If and when she is extradited to the USA to face charges, we may see US citizens in China also getting "removed". I am sure China already has a target list if they aren't working on one, ready to press the button depending on what happens. If I was a US citizen in China I would have bought a ticket out already.

Now while all this is going on, hopefully business as usual for the rest of us. I just ordered 3 items from China off eBay and I hope they arrive in a reasonable amount of time and in good shape. Many businesses rely on Chinese supply chains and how and what will be the outcome of these trade negotiations nobody knows. If tariffs are charged to increase the cost of Chinese goods, those extra tariffs will simply fill up the US government coffers. Chinese stuff will *still* be cheaper even with tariffs.

For example, something ordered from China may cost me $1, whereas here it will cost be $2-3 from a local supplier (and even then it is made in China, the local supplier just imports it). Even with 50% markup, I am still paying less on the Chinese item. If it is a business using Chinese components, it will just drive up their BOM cost even if they are assembling locally and increase their overall product cost. The field of play is so uneven that tariffs would have to multiply Chinese goods by 2-5x costs to even make it even! How is Trump going to approve or negotiate that?

By the way, I'm talking about electronics stuff... not other types of goods which I am not familiar with. Perhaps the outcome of these trade negotiations is not to even out electronics (which seems hopeless) but to force China to buy more US products they don't have (like pork bellies, grain, etc). The sum end-game would then even out trade, but I doubt it will affect electronics components costs and therefore tariffs on these just go to penalize consumers on stuff we cannot buy anywhere else anyways.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 13, 2018, 06:52:44 pm
Corporations, nomatter who or what they are, should not be above the law.

True. BTW, the law means the applicable law in which the corporate action is taking place.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2018, 07:17:08 pm
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position. It's estimated the average American commits three felonies a day every day, mostly because of the massive amount of laws being applicable at any time. These are generally not people out to break laws, just normal people. Law makers can't even actually say how many laws are applicable at any one time, so pretending anyone can reasonably adhere to them all isn't realistic.

This is actually one of the arguments against total surveillance. It would incriminate each and any one of us, which would allow governments to target people at will. Functioning societies have always been about a reasonable application of law which takes the reason for the law to exist into account, rather than laws being absolute.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 13, 2018, 07:29:17 pm
For US, Canada and others to abandon China and other cheap-goods manufacturing countries would be more psychology than anything. They have to abandon this idea of buying cheap and disposable and keep stuff longer and repair things. No more phone-update cycle of 2 years. People need to keep their tech for 5 years and longer. That may be the most difficult pill to swallow.
Put me in the front line for it,edy. The idea of buying chip has been long abandoned, my phone is 6 years old and updating it is the least of my worries.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 13, 2018, 07:29:49 pm
Before this thread gets derailed and locked by the admin, let's get back to the main subject!  ;)

... <snip> ....

How is Trump going to approve or negotiate that?

... <snip> ...

Understand you're trying to pull back and stay on the subject on electronics market, but sorry, you have to see the whole picture to understand, that what are you questioning basically is meaningless.

Again, I don't mean to derail, and drag these into politic, but the fact is this is all politic moves.

Just search for news, subject "Huawei", you see, there have been recent massive "coordinated" attack at multiple fronts on Huawei product embargo, not only in US, but to all US puppies, say like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Western European countries and heck, even recently Japan just officially joints the Huawei embargo club, really, poor Japan as they depends heavily on China and they aware of it.

All of these are coordinated and planned steps, starting from ZTE .. and it seems like Chinese can't be easily provoked, then US raises the bar, like adding up with recent multiple military provocation at Taiwan strait and South China Sea near their military base by US war ships, and then with this recent these Huawei massive global embargo + their CFO hostage arrest.

All US want to see is China's next "move", cause all the provocations seems doesn't yield as US expected, seems like China still really calm and cool headed.

And also, please, stop calling on how Canada's court and laws has the power on the CFO extradition to US, cause once you see the bigger picture, its sounds like a joke.  :-DD
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 13, 2018, 07:30:20 pm
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position.

Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2018, 07:40:11 pm
Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.
Fear is worthless, in the sense that it disappears as soon as you turn around. Respect is much more productive, as it stays when you're gone. It's also much harder to earn, which is why lesser men tend to prefer fear as their main instrument.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on December 13, 2018, 07:44:07 pm
Fear works on the average man.

Respect works on the intelligent people.

Sad but true. Look at management styles in technology vs manufacturing firms for analogous behaviour.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BrianHG on December 13, 2018, 09:58:20 pm
Next update:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i61OuQtsmfY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i61OuQtsmfY)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Rick Law on December 13, 2018, 10:00:34 pm
...
Sadly, Trump claims he is not above using this to "twist arms" during trade negotiations with China, something even his own party warned him against. Justice is blind and people should be treated fairly... not some political weapon to be used to gain advantages when needed.
...

I agree with you to a large extend, but I think some "arm-twisting" is not always bad.  Frankly, I think many of us would agree even if this arrest is pure "arm twisting" during the trade negotiation, it may well be superior to full scale trade war.  Or perhaps a warning shot like "if you don't agree to stop doing those other bad things (such as lifting others intellectual property) we will begin throwing the books at you on all your miss-steps. starting right now..."  Neither of these two would be out of line in my view.

However, if this arrest is purely to slow Huawei down with 5G infrastructure, or if this is a move to show our other trading partner that you better stop illegal trade or else...  Either of those would not be a good thing in my mind.  I hope this move is pure (as in what you see is really what is going on and no other hidden agenda).
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 13, 2018, 11:14:48 pm
I agree with you to a large extend, but I think some "arm-twisting" is not always bad.  Frankly, I think many of us would agree even if this arrest is pure "arm twisting" during the trade negotiation, it may well be superior to full scale trade war.  Or perhaps a warning shot like "if you don't agree to stop doing those other bad things (such as lifting others intellectual property) we will begin throwing the books at you on all your miss-steps. starting right now..."  Neither of these two would be out of line in my view.

However, if this arrest is purely to slow Huawei down with 5G infrastructure, or if this is a move to show our other trading partner that you better stop illegal trade or else...  Either of those would not be a good thing in my mind.  I hope this move is pure (as in what you see is really what is going on and no other hidden agenda).
Just don't come crying when China does some arm-twisting of its own.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 13, 2018, 11:45:58 pm
Democracy is the dictatorship of the law.... Gerhard Schroeder  German chancellor

Discuss
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 12:09:12 am
So what it actually boils down to then is two children squabbling and making threats about a contents of the huge toy box and the means to control of it.

Maybe we need say and Motherly way to sort out that childish dispute Mmmmm oh wait we do have one it's called media manipulation of the sheepizens the WTO.

How it started to heat up and when  https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news18_e/ds565rfc_27aug18_e.htm (https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news18_e/ds565rfc_27aug18_e.htm) That's right China sought to use the correct mechanism to get a resolution but Trump and Chronies didn't like it so here we are after much inflated bs and hypocrisy from bothsides.

Facts are for most of us zero difference to our work or daily lives or access to anything we need. There is always another way to get it done that is why we are Engineers.

(https://whiteoutscomics.files.wordpress.com/2017/02/2-17-17-blustery.png)



Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 12:10:25 am
Democracy is the dictatorship of the law.... Gerhard Schroeder  German chancellor

Discuss
No thanks, we're good.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 02:35:29 am
china is kidnapping canadians though
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 02:43:48 am
china is kidnapping canadians though

Not at all China has 'used' their extremely harsh Totalitarian and protectionist laws as they are allowed to. If as reported he was not conforming to the BS law due to unworkable requirements and permits it really doesn't matter he and his organisation was in breech.

What they fail to understand is demanding another country ignore their laws (Canadian) to please China is  :bullshit: and this seemingly tit for tat response just adds to the pile of  :bullshit:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 14, 2018, 02:44:13 am
china is kidnapping canadians though

You must be not surprised by that are you ? Just two words ... Guantanamo Bay.  >:D
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 02:45:53 am
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position.

Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.

ok this is just fucking ridiculous. do you call killing something like 20 mil people during a reign to be some how atonable by deeds? how much great stuff could all those people that starved and were purged done? dude this is the most brain washed shit I ever read. His policies resulted in mass murder to numbers we can't even imagine. It's like if you took a city off a map and someone said your great for fixing something else.

WHat you can say is that he managed to run a country by killing 20 million or more people. The people there did stuff. Are you saying the people there would have done less stuff if there was no massive catastrophes? He signed papers and ranted at a podium, like hitler, chinese people did all the great shit (yea it is impressive, they managed to keep it together with a genocidal nut running the government).

If I had a factory, decided to kill or fire 20% of the work force so I can use my shitty management practices to run things better, did I do things better, or would it be better if I had better management practices and 100% of my manufacturing force?


"oh yea the accounting department and human resources is over loaded because we have lazy slugs that work there, fuck the investors, my ego is more important, I will reduce numbers until things can run right with the current people in place". Bro he is a fucking criminal. The thing between canada and China reads like some fucking Godfather episode.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 14, 2018, 02:51:57 am
Yeah ..imagine what a great place america would be with all those 20 milion  injuns alive and kicking
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 02:55:52 am
Considering you list your country as Zimbabwe @coppercone2 your own countries last 50 or so years as far from perfect as regards killing each other regardless of which if any side you personally are on. The repressions of both sides and deaths while on a smaller scale still run toward systematic genocide.

We are all the sum of our pasts and our forbearers and their deeds and misdeeds.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 02:56:00 am
Yeah ..imagine what a great place america would be with all those 20 milion  injuns alive and kicking

do I have a remembrance day I celebrate for some insane sea captains that decided to wage biological warfare on the native population? i like thanksgiving inb4 some one starts saying colonial gangsters were shaking down native people for food ::)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 03:05:53 am
I am waiting for some china troll to post a picture of columbus ( yea I know your gonna say columbus day) sitting around on his ship looking at biowar plots and signing off on purges.


(like there is actually evidence of Chinese government officials doing). Ok maybe not advanced for bio war, more like deputizing death squads red guards to beat people with sticks and throw them outside windows. Thats like 'oh shit my department is doing bad i better hang out some pink slips so I can run this thing by myself so no one finds my dirty laundry, I can't risk sharing control'
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 14, 2018, 03:13:47 am
Yeah ..imagine what a great place america would be with all those 20 milion  injuns alive and kicking

australia would be nice with all those aboriginals
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 14, 2018, 04:01:22 am
coppercone2 please stop- are you trying to get this thread locked?

Beanflying, look back to the beginning of March 2016

How it started to heat up and when  https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news18_e/ds565rfc_27aug18_e.htm (https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news18_e/ds565rfc_27aug18_e.htm)

---------
Facts are for most of us zero difference to our work or daily lives or access to anything we need. There is always another way to get it done that is why we are Engineers.


The one from 2016 would impact engineers and many other professionals a LOT more than the one you pointed to. Globally.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 04:06:57 am
Most likely.

I can't be arsed reading them all but there would have to be a heap of tit for tat in this list by a heap of countries against each other :o https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_country_e.htm#chn (https://www.wto.org/english/tratop_e/dispu_e/dispu_by_country_e.htm#chn)

The USA with 23 leads China with 15 to save you all needing to look. Yeah they win  :palm:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 14, 2018, 04:16:37 am
India filed it.

Then look on the net for info on the US dispute with the WTO over Appellate judges for the Dispute Settlement Body.

Here is the problem, they set up this whole system which goes around democracy (http://members.iinet.net.au/~jenks/Sanders.html), has the potential to do some pretty distressing things, and didn't tell our countr(ies) a thing about it.

It seems this is the case in the UK too. There the implications are even worse, I think.

Nobody even understands what I am trying to explain, its that bad.

They aren't ready for it, thats for sure.  Neither are we, here. But we're getting it force fed to us.

BTW, as I tried repeatedly to post this, I have to keep restarting my DNS server so it can load the root zone data. Thats the only way I can post. There is some serious DNS something going on right now.

Ive been dealing with it a lot. I think its some censorship related thing because it only happens when I try to discuss this particular issue, in its many flavors.

Quick course in this thing.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY2tUTA4mzM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BY2tUTA4mzM)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 04:53:31 am
do you call killing something like 20 mil people during a reign to be some how atonable by deeds?

If it is the only way, then it is necessary. When the PRC was founded, most bright brains went to Taiwan, and US refuses to supply any support without the CCP surrenders its dictatorship. USSR gave limited support, and then took it away since China insisted to stay independent, instead of being another USSR state.

With no one to help and with the founding fathers not willing to give up their power (which no founding fathers of any country would ever do), China's only way was to favor technology development and self-supporting over human living condition.

Now if you can propose a good way to keep the West away from China and to keep China independent without having to starve people for forging steel, please do. If not, then just STFU.

Considering you list your country as Zimbabwe @coppercone2 your own countries last 50 or so years as far from perfect as regards killing each other regardless of which if any side you personally are on.

Risking getting banned for doxing, I have to point out that he lives in US. I've traded items with him, and he was so broken that PP refused to let him to receive money.

Also from the posts he made before, I think he worked for the military on some RF things, then left being a mad scientist, wanking on high end RF porns, without having the money to implement them.

And he blames China for competing with US letting him to lose his income to support his mad science endeavor, just like Russia did before.

Now listen, we came to the US for replacing people like you. Chinese, Indians, you name it. We came to work, gave the best labor with the least money, to phase out less competitive locallers.

The work is always given to the lowest bidder with best offerings. If you can't compete, you are welcomed to be phased out.

There is a reason why California is the most developed place in the world. Competitiveness. Open to immigration and all new ideas, and f*ck the Republicans.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 05:05:48 am
Regardless of who lives where and why at this point in time. To claim one side did X without acknowledging what was done before or since is more than a little Hypocritical and one sided. Translated to a Chinese sized population the Zimbabwean mess of the last 50 'ish years would run into millions of deaths too with an effective Dictatorship in control after deposing the preceding repressive regime. None of this is anywhere near on topic so apologies to all.

At least in China you don't have to worry about the Election Cycle. Just two more years for the USA to wait  ::)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 07:14:51 am
1. I agree. My guess the end of the trade war is China will give up stealing western IPs tp certain degree, under a condition that the West promises never to sanction China by limiting high tech export to China. From Chinese government's perspective, the West uses high tech sanction to protest dictatorship and Taiwan problem. If China is given a green unconditionally on high tech, China will have no excuse to fund cloning of Western technology.

2. BS. If you can't compete, you deserve to die. China will deal with pollution and many other social problems, but human competing and phasing out human will never change. That's the thrust of natural selection.

3. Politicians know what is good for the human as a race, not the humanity BS. If evolution requires, everyone not up to the standard should and can die.
So China's stance is basically "give us your technology or we'll steal your technology"? With the distinct possibility the technology will still be copied and stolen?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 07:17:23 am
So China's stance is basically "give us your technology or we'll steal your technology"? With the distinct possibility the technology will still be copied and stolen?

Yes. And it's in Chinese law. If an IP product doesn't have a sales outlet in China, then it's fair game.

Shit, or get off the pot.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 07:20:43 am
Yes. And it's in Chinese law. If an IP product doesn't have a sales outlet in China, then it's fair game.

Shit, or get off the pot.
More like "Give me your money and I won't rob you. Maybe I'll still rob you."

It's funny that this attitude is probably one of the reasons technology is withheld from China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 07:33:12 am
And of course US corporations and the Goverment are pure and squeaky clean when it comes to respecting the IP of others.

As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.

It was then the turn of Evil Japanese to have a trade war with http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1987/12/21/69996/index.htm (http://archive.fortune.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/1987/12/21/69996/index.htm)

Lets come forward to the pure shiny white beacons of hypocrisy https://www.foxnews.com/politics/small-businesses-claim-us-government-stealing-their-ideas (https://www.foxnews.com/politics/small-businesses-claim-us-government-stealing-their-ideas)

Huawei Getting Hacked by the NSA https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html (https://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html)

That's without even going into internal USA corporate IP theft.

Anyone seeing a pattern of the Pot Calling the Kettle Black here and History repeating itself?

Perhaps this time around it has just been more obvious due to the massive scale it is on.

Using a defense of 'Our countries Laws say it is ok' doesn't make it morally and legally right either as it crosses borders in the case of China-USA!
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 07:47:53 am
A more apt example would be how the US stole supersonic technology from the Brits. The Americans essentially dotted the i's and claimed the whole thing. Fairly dickish move, all things considered.

"In 1944, design work was considered 90 per cent complete and Miles was told to proceed with the construction of a total of three prototype M.52s. Later that year, the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. Miles Chief Aerodynamicist Dennis Bancroft stated that the Bell Aircraft company was given access to the drawings and research on the M.52; however, the U.S. reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return."
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 14, 2018, 07:53:51 am
Yes. And it's in Chinese law. If an IP product doesn't have a sales outlet in China, then it's fair game.

Shit, or get off the pot.
More like "Give me your money and I won't rob you. Maybe I'll still rob you."

It's funny that this attitude is probably one of the reasons technology is withheld from China.

It's more like I have the money, whatever amount you want, but give me your IP, or I will rob it.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 14, 2018, 07:55:03 am
You also got screwed about the same time over the Nuclear technology some of your scientists helped create if memory serves me correctly by the US?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 08:00:15 am
It's more like I have the money, whatever amount you want, but give me your IP, or I will rob it.
The point is that it's the opposite of a false dilemma. It looks like a choice but it's no choice at all. China is muscling in, which is why others are muscling it out.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 14, 2018, 09:25:47 am
A more apt example would be how the US stole supersonic technology from the Brits. The Americans essentially dotted the i's and claimed the whole thing. Fairly dickish move, all things considered.

"In 1944, design work was considered 90 per cent complete and Miles was told to proceed with the construction of a total of three prototype M.52s. Later that year, the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. Miles Chief Aerodynamicist Dennis Bancroft stated that the Bell Aircraft company was given access to the drawings and research on the M.52; however, the U.S. reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return."
Britain handed over gas turbine technology and actual engine designs to Russia as well. I've never even seen an attempt at trying to explain a strategy behind this. Then Britain wondered why it was sinking into irrelevance in the modern world.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 14, 2018, 02:35:41 pm
Back to Mrs. Wanzhou, so Canadian and American officials meeting over next few days in Washington to decide what to do with the situation, and how to guarantee the release of the Canadians that were arrested as well. A prisoner swap may be in order but Americans would never agree, there is no way to know if China will comply on their end and Canada needs the US to help them as they have the muscle to deal with China, although it seems Canada can no longer rely on US under Trump as an ally. Look what happened with Saudi Arabia criticism by Canada for human rights abuses... Diplomats ambassadors kicked out, and foreign students and investments withdrawn, while US stood by silently and even in support of Saudi regime (since they give us cheap oil and buy our weapons - good for business - if we don't do it someone else will). Now if Canada complies as it most likely will, US gets their bargaining chip, works out a better trade deal, Canada gets shafted by both China and US for the long haul. Will be interesting to see what happens as this story continues to develop.  :popcorn: ...it's a good thing Canadians have weed... going to need it...  :-DD
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Gribo on December 14, 2018, 05:22:25 pm
Sadly (Or luckily), Canada doesn't have a list of targets.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 14, 2018, 05:36:11 pm
... Canada gets shafted by both China and US for the long haul ...

That is the price that Canada has to pay as US puppy, too bad, imho, you guys Canuckians are not under big threat say like Russia on your Europeans counterparts, and your land and soil is well protected by Pacific & Atlantic oceans, why need to hide under the Uncle Sam's arm pit for protection ?  :-//


Read here recent development -> Yale’s Stephen Roach questions why Huawei has been ‘singled out’ for sanctions violation (https://www.cnbc.com/2018/12/14/stephen-roach-asks-why-us-singled-out-huawei-for-sanctions-violations.html)

Quote :

...  “A number of financial institutions, including JP Morgan, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and international banks, were all judged guilty and paid enormous fines for violating sanctions in the last several years, ” Roach told CNBC’s Eunice Yoon on Friday. “None of their executives, of course, went to jail — why is Huawei being singled out for the sanctions violations?” ....


No offence, I'm not buying on Canada's crap at abiding & upholding laws superiority as an excuse to publicly kidnap foreign citizen.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 14, 2018, 11:04:21 pm
The US did arrest the Volkswagen CEO for the diesel emissions scandal.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: jmelson on December 14, 2018, 11:19:26 pm
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 14, 2018, 11:41:51 pm
The leadership of the German rocket scientists were eager to surrender to the Americans. And not the Red Army. For very good reasons.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 15, 2018, 12:28:08 am
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 15, 2018, 12:49:53 am
It was a different era then than today. Back then genocide counted for far more than IP theft.

</SARCASM>

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 15, 2018, 04:09:17 am
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.

There is a good comparison to be made between the USSR/Communist belief and the Blob. And there is the little cinematic in the original Red Alert game that shows it spreading like a blob on a map.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 15, 2018, 04:40:52 am
Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.

The timid preys go for democracy. The vicious predators go for dictatorship.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 15, 2018, 06:48:01 am
I am going to leave my feelings out of this but what you say is a 2 quadrant solution to a 4 or more quadrant problem

There is the size of the government (big or small government)
-size of the government indicates how much group protection you want

there is the style of government
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
-something in between like elected officials is a mixture , you trust some people at certain times for certain things (ideal not possible without something like Deus Ex 2's nano hive mind endings with the omar and denton due to the existence of time constants (even in politics you can say socialism has a severe lag or any sort of command economy has a severe temporal lag).

I think this complicates your simple statement.

You also need to consider not only the size of the government but its responsibilities. What is privatized and what is not privatized. Something like 'private police force' relates directly to the 'cowardice' you mention

The general statement is extremely confusing and propagandistic .
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 15, 2018, 03:57:31 pm
A lot of the issues involving business relations across borders are in fact in the hands of the WTO, which shouldnt inspire any confidence that they would handle them right.

Basically the WTO was set up by the biggest countries economically at the time to protect and facilitate their investment in other countries under terms they wanted at the time. (Special statuses: look up 'National Treatment' 'Most Favored Nation')

Countries where they felt they could extract the highest yields on investments. But the deals are reciprocal and now we have problems in that they made commitments and made countries make commitments which don't work for their people, only for their wealthiest.

These deals commit countries to constantly reduce "non-tariff" barriers to trade (this is called 'progressive liberalisation' and its just totally inconsistent with democratic rule of law on the national level because its invariably things that people do not want.)

Trade barriers as WTO frames them are as often as not good things, not bad, a category that includes basically all the good things that PEOPLE VOTED FOR over the last 100 years. (Everything that protects them from the maxing out of what amounts to a feudal exploitation of the country by corporations)

Thanks to the ever rising power of corporations - the WTO meets every two years to pressure countries to privatize more, to give up more of their social safety nets, irreversibly (there is a ratchet there)

In order to 'justify' this they are insisting that it will help the poor countries corporations as much or more than the rich ones, but that is really debatable. Also is it really wise to prop up dictators with what amount to special concessions for foreign firms (they may get to establish businesses that have much lower costs than domestic firms, which have certain standards they must apply, like paying wages that are many times higher to their workers) Foreign firms simply must pay a 'legal' wage.

Trade barriers are the things that make it possible for families to manage - But they stand in the way of profit maximization- So virtually all - even in the poor countries - they are all supposed to go away to facilitate international trade. (in other words the WTO model has a race to the bottom on things like the hard won improvements in wages and working conditions as well as not discriminating against various groups and safety regs).

Of course they aren't going to rub this in peoples faces so there is a lot of lying going on. Because otherwise people would not be quiet.

For example, in the US the WTO is the real reason the health insurance for people with pre-existing conditions has to be rolled back (to its state 20 years ago, in February 1998) not a very recent federal court decision. Thats going to mean that a lot of people may have to leave the country to find affordable health care. The current system isnt up to the challenge. Same thing in the other wealthy countries. Wages have not kept up with the prices of things like drugs and medical care, which can often bankrupt families.

So basically we're unlikely to be able to figure out whats going on, just from what we read in the news. WTO involvement is much harder to follow.

I have to say though, if Huawei agreed to not share this technology but shared it then they broke a bargain which had been conditional on their not doing that and that is a violation of both US law and contract law which is pretty much the same everywhere.

And the risk of arms proliferation is a serious one.

We made a big mistake by de-emphasizing human rights in the WTO - because thats the area where attention needs to be focused. Setting up an intentionally human rights and labor rights -blind WTO leaves us in a bad position where we have few in the way of ways to stop really bad things. And people everywhere are going to suffer greatly.

The human race may not survive the century because of this stupidity. Because it becomes impossible to encourage improvements in any area when the official line is that they were all impermissible trade barriers, and must be temporary because 'the market' and increased global trade and elimination of rules which raise wages and allow a middle class to exist were all mistakes and now trade is the only permissible solution to all problems and lacks of affordability.

So expect a return to child labor and illiteracy and a sort of dark age of feudalism run and sham politics 'owned' in the worst sense by corporations because thats what the WTO and similar trade organizations and deals are pushing us back to. Of course this is what the oligarchs in the least equal nations want because they are sick of paying taxes to support an infrastructure and population they no longer think they need as business automates.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 15, 2018, 04:26:46 pm
The timid preys go for democracy. The vicious predators go for dictatorship.
Resorting to force is a sign of weakness. It's no coincidence that the least stable dictators need the most force to assert their often waining power. If you're secure about your position, you don't need to reassert it continually, and can even afford to have it challenged. I'll quote myself.

Fear is worthless, in the sense that it disappears as soon as you turn around. Respect is much more productive, as it stays when you're gone. It's also much harder to earn, which is why lesser men tend to prefer fear as their main instrument.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 15, 2018, 08:26:01 pm
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 15, 2018, 08:59:52 pm
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.
Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 15, 2018, 09:27:29 pm
Is the Mao's little book is still sold in China?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 15, 2018, 09:49:23 pm
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.

Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 15, 2018, 09:54:49 pm
Is the Mao's little book is still sold in China?

Yes, as collectibles.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 15, 2018, 10:41:57 pm
https://www.tni.org/files/download/briefing_on_intra-eu_bits_0.pdf (https://www.tni.org/files/download/briefing_on_intra-eu_bits_0.pdf)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 16, 2018, 12:08:52 am
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 16, 2018, 12:39:46 am
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.
Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.

China is just starting down that 'Belt and Road' with 'Loans' to other governments too just give it a little time to work then China will have leverage when repayments aren't met!  :--
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 16, 2018, 12:46:03 am
Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.

And yet again 'assuming' you are Zimbabwean you ignore your own countries non democracy and state sanctioned torture and murders. Not to mention inter tribal conflict violence and Murders .....

People who live (or even don't live) in glass houses should not throw stones. You keep ranting about failures in other countries but seem to conveniently avoid your own? Hypocrisy or selective omission?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 16, 2018, 01:10:11 am
China is just starting down that 'Belt and Road' with 'Loans' to other governments too just give it a little time to work then China will have leverage when repayments aren't met!  :--

OBOR is not for getting payments. China doesn't need a one shot payment. China wants to expand its industry to other countries, and make cut from its revenue.
China is more than happy to ask just some cut from the operating revenue, instead of the initial investment reimbursement.
That's why all China's OBOR projects are infrastructure ones. Its return is low and slow, but stable. As long as the region doesn't suffer from wars, the need of transportation and communication is constant, stable and consistent.
OBOR IMHO is all about to create a soviet union centered with China. With China providing technology and capital support, and the joining countries providing resource, labor and political affinity. Money is never a goal.
And of course, the state leaders get a private cut. So everyone gets what it needs, as long as you join the alliance.

Don't think OBOR an investment. It's just BRICS 2.0.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 16, 2018, 01:21:25 am
Belt and Road was meant to be a play on words.

Wonder if China start using 'their' island of Tonga for Communist Party members holidays  ::) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/tonga-to-start-repaying-controversial-chinese-loans/10013996 (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/tonga-to-start-repaying-controversial-chinese-loans/10013996)

A loan is not 'Aid' in any sense of the word I know. https://chineseaidmap.lowyinstitute.org/ (https://chineseaidmap.lowyinstitute.org/)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IanB on December 16, 2018, 01:28:43 am
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 16, 2018, 01:50:06 am
Adjustment to democracy is extremely difficult if something was held together in a high stress configuration like dictators that threaten unity or else when enough elements of society don't want unity.

IMO belt and road is a predatory loaning practice, partially like John Gotti handing out free turkeys out the back of a (stolen) truck (publicity stunt).

Blue Skulls description is correct. But its like taking money from the Mafia. Pampering poor kids a bit for odd jobs so they can grow into members.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 16, 2018, 01:51:27 am
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
Well, yes, but I didn't mean stability in government in that sense. You could say democracy is very noisy, but long term it should average out and be more stable overall. Democracies has lot of drama, but stays roughly on the same heading over time while with dictatorships you have the same aristocracy in power year after year and no public dissent, but they can easily end up implementing extreme policy since there are no checks and balances. That said, modern "liberal democracies" haven't existed for very long.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 16, 2018, 01:56:07 am
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill

It's time limited but you still decided that in the initial condition (well not really because it was a revolutionary government formation built under struggle) in an initial condition everyone can vote on who gets elected so over enough time it should clean itself from the initial conditions (i.e. voluntary government positions or government based on military achievement).

 What you are saying is that the form of government has a paranoia built in (which is defiantly does) based on psychological factors. I kind of see that like changing a part once in a while based on MTBF only, we are allowed one inspection every 4 years but its hard limited to 8 years continuous service with a four year duty cycle kinda (maybe comparable to looking for strain relaxation related fracture or something). maybe someone can re sharpen it?

I kinda see it like trying to make sure there is even wear on all parts in the system, like making sure a cutter does not develop a slant.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfvCJ1eHimngDysCuJzgA9cE_5fK96LsdMd9EaxF2Mc4El0dr70w

A dictatorship is some hard ass machining soft butter on a single sided cutter till the lathe explodes  :-DD  . Someone put a cutting torch aiming at the work piece and added some expensive pamper ass water cooling on the cutter and does not give a shit what happens because you never did any maintenance.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 16, 2018, 02:03:49 am
Coopercone,

A small lesson in history... Almost all royal households of Europe are ( were ) linked through blood lines to the Danish ( Germanic ) Royal household.

Charlemaigne comes into play here, a Germanic war lord who was and is recognised as "the barbarian at the gate " of Rome.
Hwe is the one who had himself pronounced the King of Europe at the price of not sacking Rome.

He is the one who gave miltiary strength to the Holy Roman Western empire and made sure the Popes authority was absolute.

Henceforth only those Kings loyal to Rome could be called kings. This is the beginning of European democracy. Pretty sickening ...

And dont think of magna carta as anything else other than what it was.. a POWER SHARING agreement between greedy lords  and a selfish crown.

For a better start to democracy go search for Dushanov zakonik ...

Meanwhile Europe went through two bloody wars and a whole bunch of other earlier wars in order to finally reach Napoleonic times ( post French revolution ) and a series of high moral ground treaties which in the end gave us "The tail wag the dog " scenario alluded to the earlier post.

Now for the measure of the fang... does the end justify the means?

And pre WW2 Yugoslavia was a parliamentary monarchy .. akin to the Westminster model.. it was during WW2 that the western powers supported the communists  and in fact supported them in the civil war which ran in parallel with German occupation.

Again during the '90s it was the west which supported Islamic extremists in Bosnia ( Bin Laden had a Bosnian passport) to the extent of nullifying the outcome of a free and democratic election and installing Izetbegovic ( the author of Islamic declaration a book so often compared to Mein Kampf ).

This is not the Hybrid PI equivalent of a common emitter amplifier.. this is not even the shunt series feed back pair and Miller capacitance effect... this is beyond Your ken.

 
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 16, 2018, 02:05:49 am
Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.
You tout Western hypocrisy a lot, but never properly defined or explained it. Please do so.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppercone2 on December 16, 2018, 02:32:26 am
I believe any early yugoslavian elections after the fall were seen as severely contaminated by the existing deep state which was not necessarily favorable to the demographics

nor was the electoral system properly setup to do this, which is why you needed the brains of europe to find a proper electoral system for such a complicated mess, This ties into why the electoral system of a place like Bosnia now is so complicated, so votes can be weighed fairly. Look how many representatives they need from various regions to properly set this up.

The USA went through this too with things like the 3/5th compromise IMO,
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 16, 2018, 02:36:49 am
Henceforth only those Kings loyal to Rome could be called kings. This is the beginning of European democracy. Pretty sickening ...
Charlemagne had a lot to do with the Christianisation of Europe but nothing with democracy? (There is a reason that period is called the dark ages). Our current democracies grew out of the age of enlightenment, inspired by ideas from antiquity.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 16, 2018, 03:30:23 am
The age of enlightnemnt as You put it is presumably the italian reneisance which according to some Italian scholars was seeded by refugees post the Battle of Kosovo.
At the endof bombing of Serbia in Nineties, italian scholars hurried to Kosov to see what could be salvaged from various monasteries and churchers blown up under the watchfull eye of NATO and kind harted hand of KLA ( some 150 churches and monasteries blown up POST ilegal nato agression some dating to ninth century ) . To their amasement they discovered pre reneisance culture In Kosovo.

At the end of battle of Kosovo ( 1389AD  ) during the subsequent decades, large numbers of population fled to Italy under the pressure from Otoman turk invader and formed bsis for development of reneisance italy according to the italian scholars.

This is not surprising since back in the day  ( 100 or so years prior to the arrival of Ottoman Turk ) French Princess Helen of Anjou became Serbian Queen and under her a girls only school was established.  Some 50 years after the Battle of Kosov that part of the world was a home to the first printing press.

The people there unlike the claim Coppercone makes have a long history and tradition of scholarship and freedoms as attested to by the existence of Dushanov Zakonik  ie Dusan' Canon  ( circa 1349 in present day capital of Macedonia , Skopje ).

We now have a  very derogatory expression... Balkanisation.  Tis is what makes some think of the peoples there as wild and unrully.

It is more likely that the Balkans have been westernised ... and now they look wild and unrully.
The peoples of Bosnia while of of Serbian origins are of  islamic faith,  have been brutalised by Ottomans , Germans, Americans and now Arab Wahabi ( taliban ) to seal in the islamic tradition into the fabric of Europe.

They do not need special European solutions.  They need their own history back. Not some imported " wag the dog " guidance.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 16, 2018, 03:31:34 am
If you read up some of the more recent literature on economics you'll see that democracy and national sovereignty are now viewed as inconsistent with the multilateral trading system and its global economic integration.

That presents a legitimacy problem, yes. Much has been written about that too.

This has been done because of the permanent, irreversible rights awarded international investors by trade agreements conflict with democracy.

Dani Rodrik has written a fair amount about it and has become associated with this trilemma.

The argument goes that were a country to re-implement democracy, people would just vote to fix everything, and 'highly mobile global capital' would flee. But I think thats just total BS.

This is just nuts. We have to do better by people than this! The media should be all over this story. But its not, its hiding it.



Also google "Washington Consensus" .



Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 16, 2018, 05:40:46 pm
The age of enlightnemnt as You put it is presumably the italian reneisance which according to some Italian scholars was seeded by refugees post the Battle of Kosovo.
No I didn't mean the renaissance. No offence but maybe you should refrain from giving history lessons. :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 16, 2018, 07:01:17 pm
What about India? It seemed a few years ago that everybody was predicting India would take off.


Quote

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/01/11/indias-missing-middle-class (https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/01/11/indias-missing-middle-class)


Many companies around the world are looking to India for a repeat performance of China’s middle-class expansion. India is, after all, another country with 1.3bn people, a fast-growing economy and favourable demography. And China’s growth is flagging, at least by the standards of the past two decades. Companies which made a packet there, both incomers such as Apple and locals like Alibaba, are seeking pastures new. Firms that missed the boat on China or, like Amazon and Facebook, were simply not allowed in, want to be sure that they do not miss out this time.

Enthusiasm about India is boundless. “I see a lot of similarities to where China was several years ago. And so I’m very, very bullish and very, very optimistic about India,” Tim Cook, Apple’s boss, recently told investors. A walk around the Ambience Mall in Delhi shows he is not the only multinational boss with big ambitions in the country. Indian brands like Fabindia, a purveyor of fancy clothes and crafts, are outnumbered by Western ones such as Levi’s, Starbucks, Zara and BMW. The slums that host a quarter of all India’s city dwellers feel a long way off.

Beyond the mall, Amazon has committed $5bn to establish a presence in the world’s biggest democracy. Alibaba has backed Paytm, a local e-commerce venture, to the tune of $500m. SoftBank, a Japanese investor, has funded a slew of start-ups premised on the potential buying power of India’s middle class. Uber, the world’s biggest ride-hailing firm, has hit the streets. Google, Facebook and Netflix are vying for online eyeballs. IKEA is putting the finishing touches to the first of 25 shops it plans to open over the next seven years. Paul Polman, boss of Unilever, has described India as potentially the consumer giant’s biggest market. Reports put out by management consultants routinely point to 300m-400m Indians in the ranks of the global middle class. HSBC, a bank, recently described nearly 300m Indians as “middle class”, a figure it thinks will rise to 550m by 2025.

But for some of the firms trying to tap this “bird of gold” opportunity, as McKinsey once called it, an awkward truth is making itself felt: a lot of this middle class has little money to spend. There are many rich people in India—but they number in the mere millions. There are a great many more who have risen above the poverty line—but not so far above it that they spend much on anything other than feeding their families. And there is less in between the two than meets the eye.
Missing the mark

Companies that have tried to tap the Indian opportunity have found that returns fell short of the hype. Take e-commerce. The expectation that several hundred million Indians would shop online was what convinced Amazon and local rivals to invest heavily. Industry revenue-growth rates of well over 100% in 2014 and 2015 prompted analysts to forecast $100bn in sales by 2020, around five times today’s total.

That now looks implausible. In 2016, e-commerce sales hardly grew at all. At least 2017 looks a little better, with growth of 25-30%, according to analysts (see chart 1). But that barely exceeds the 20% the industry averages globally. Even after years of enticing customers with heavily discounted wares, perhaps 50m online shoppers are active in India—roughly, the richest 5-10% of the population, says Arya Sen of Jefferies, an investment bank. In dollar terms, growth in Indian e-commerce in 2017 was comparable to a week or so of today’s growth in China. Tellingly, few websites venture beyond English, a language in which perhaps only one in ten are conversant and which is preferred by the economic elite.

India has yet to move the needle for the world’s big tech groups. Apple made 0.7% of its global revenues there in the year to March 2017. Facebook, though it has 241m users in India, probably the most in the world in one country, registered revenues of just $51m in the same period. Google is growing more slowly in India than in the rest of the world. Mobile phones have become popular as their price has tumbled—but most handsets sold are basic devices rather than the smartphones that are ubiquitous elsewhere in the world.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: MT on December 16, 2018, 07:50:11 pm
We are all doomed!...........in the coming (austerity) financial crash.....All fiat currencies will explode into fragments.
A gigantic debt reset may occur........trillions of people will lose all capital they had(unless some is in gold/platinum).
Enormous bank bail ins, oligarchs will flee to Swizzerland an Kiwiland. 1929 crash will be rewritten as a calm weekend
afternoon in comparison. :-BROKE
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 17, 2018, 11:11:32 am
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.

At least Western governments preach capitalism and practice capitalism.
The Chinese government preaches communism and practices capitalism. The People's Hypocrisy of China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 03:36:19 pm
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.

At least Western governments preach capitalism and practice capitalism.
The Chinese government preaches communism and practices capitalism. The People's Hypocrisy of China.

We still have human evolution.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: SiliconWizard on December 17, 2018, 03:57:45 pm
Capitalism and market economy are two different things.
Many (if not most) communist regimes actually use market economy. That doesn't automatically imply capitalism per se, and the link between market economy and capitalism seems obvious at first sight, but it may be more complex than that.

China has a market economy. Is it capitalism? (China shows many signs of capitalism but the question is still not trivial IMO.)

Another frequent misconception when it comes to communism (same as with liberalism actually) is to associate it with economy only. Both doctrines have deeper roots than just economy. Seeing only the economic side of things is a mistake. It makes everything look deeply amoral, whereas both doctrines are actually essentially moral doctrines (which you may not agree with, but that's another point).

Just a thought.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 17, 2018, 05:03:20 pm
The new doctrine of neoliberalism seems to be the ideology of the 'law and economics movement'. (particularly Coase, et. al)  A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 05:50:11 pm
A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.

The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
Each side will have its supporters, and haters. How about we just believe in what we believed, and STFU?
Dave & Simon: how about we have a zero political thread policy?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 17, 2018, 06:51:13 pm
Steering back to the topic, has anyone seen an effect on electronics industry? Guess it has caused none and that upsets me. I was hoping for a freeze and end of chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box. Come on, dear chinese fellows, show us you have balls. Follow through with your "it is going to he much worse" threat.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 17, 2018, 06:52:01 pm
The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
Each side will have its supporters, and haters. How about we just believe in what we believed, and STFU?
Dave & Simon: how about we have a zero political thread policy?
You mean suppressing a discussion when it no longer suits you? Typical.  ;D
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 07:07:01 pm
chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

Natural selection. Those garbage manufacturers have been phased out.
Huawei is definitely not making garbage. It's a very powerful company that has its army of lawyers and engineers, trying to achieve world dominance on its industry.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 17, 2018, 07:17:19 pm
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

The arguments you're making are pretending they had not made any promises but the US assertion is that they did.   And it may turn out to be true.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important. But in the end we need to also reduce the savage inequalities so that fewer people end up angry enough at one another to commit violent acts.

Business models that ignore the need for improvements in that area are not doing us good.

All that said, I actually think one would have to be blind not to see that we've made big improvements in many areas in the last few years, especially in that people are talking with one another, doing business with each other, and finding more often than not that they have more things in common than not.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: SiliconWizard on December 17, 2018, 07:28:38 pm
I was hoping for a freeze and end of chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

It's entirely OUR responsabiity we import and sell (and buy when we are aware of it) such crap. They are merely taking advantage of our gullibility and greed. We are importing crap, but it's actually pretty tough to get one of our products on the chinese market, and not just for the price tag. Their standards are different and often more stringent than ours on some points. Of course they don't have to comply with these for their export products, so they don't. They often don't really comply with ours either, but that's OUR responsability.

Ironically, the Huawei affair is interesting and not related to this at all. Its direct effect, IMO, is likely to affect the import of good chinese products (with security concerns) much more so than their crap products actually, which will continue to flow in for as long as we let them.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 07:31:51 pm
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important.

How come some telecomm servers be used as to violate NPT? It's not like a super computer cluster that can be used to simulate nukes.
IMHO, the total sanction to Iran is the West showing off muscle to anyone who defies them. How can this be democracy?
Democracy to the people, not the the governments, even though they are dictators. That's not true democracy.
That's using democracy as a cover to gain dominance to defiant countries. Nothing but world domination.

From what I know, the most controversial items Huawei sells are speech control devices, such as firewalls/packet filters, which is exactly what is used in China for implementing GFW.
It has nothing to do with arm trading and proliferation. It's merely a tool to keep the dictators in power. Human right is a completely different thing that nukes, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 17, 2018, 07:33:49 pm
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

The arguments you're making are pretending they had not made any promises but the US assertion is that they did.   And it may turn out to be true.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important. But in the end we need to also reduce the savage inequalities so that fewer people end up angry enough at one another to commit violent acts.

Business models that ignore the need for improvements in that area are not doing us good.

All that said, I actually think one would have to be blind not to see that we've made big improvements in many areas in the last few years, especially in that people are talking with one another, doing business with each other, and finding more often than not that they have more things in common than not.

The problem in this kind of discussion is, not everyone in this world agree that Iran should be punished, or sanction against Iran is something "sacred".

And also since 70s, almost 2 generations in western world (US & puppies) have been heavily brain washed that Iran or Ayatollah is evil, remember that ?  :-DD And every Iranian leaders , even was elected in democracy, still an evil.

See ? While you based your argument about law, and sanction against Iran, totally understandable as you live and raised in western world.

Again, not everyone on this earth see the same thing as you western US & puppies see.

Intermezzo ...
Q: Does anyone remember since when, Iran and it's elected leaders were and are always "stamped" as evil ?  >:D
A: Since the Iranian people de-thrown the CIA's puppet named Shah Iran.  :-DD
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 17, 2018, 10:57:54 pm
I agree, the Shah of Iran was a really horrible leader.

However the issue which is going to be decided in the court has nothing to do with any of that, it simply is, did Huawei violate their agreement not to transfer the technology.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 17, 2018, 11:07:45 pm
Blueskull,

I know you know what I am getting at.

Look, because human people (natural persons) generally want human rights and corporations don't want to be bothered with such things, unless they are profitable. And also because of this web of agreements often require equal rights (as compared to other nation's corporations) be extended to corporations  (a status known as "Most Favored Nation") Also likely since telecommunications was and is the subject of a big and important WTO Treaty, governing the interactions between countries and corporations, which is intentionally human rights agnostic, we now have a growing international milieu where many issues that natural persons ('people') care about are all almost certainly off the table.

Human rights are missing in action in all of the events we see these days. And this is likely no exception.

What I think they will be arguing about is did she break her companies agreement not to transfer the technology.

Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important.

How come some telecomm servers be used as to violate NPT? It's not like a super computer cluster that can be used to simulate nukes.
IMHO, the total sanction to Iran is the West showing off muscle to anyone who defies them. How can this be democracy?
Democracy to the people, not the the governments, even though they are dictators. That's not true democracy.
That's using democracy as a cover to gain dominance to defiant countries. Nothing but world domination.

From what I know, the most controversial items Huawei sells are speech control devices, such as firewalls/packet filters, which is exactly what is used in China for implementing GFW.
It has nothing to do with arm trading and proliferation. It's merely a tool to keep the dictators in power. Human right is a completely different thing that nukes, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 11:14:41 pm
What I think they will be arguing about is did she break her companies agreement not to transfer the technology.

If she did, she would be doing it in China, where US and CA has no jurisdiction at.

FFS, I don't understand why Chinese government don't extract her if she is that important?

It sounds easy. Shoot the guard, break the GPS tracker, and escort her to Chinese embassy, then get her a diplomatic passport and she's free to go under diplomatic exemption.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 17, 2018, 11:19:57 pm
chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

Natural selection. Those garbage manufacturers have been phased out.
Huawei is definitely not making garbage. It's a very powerful company that has its army of lawyers and engineers, trying to achieve world dominance on its industry.

I am sure Huawei makes good products, but the scope of this thread is about the electronics industry in general.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 11:26:52 pm
I am sure Huawei makes good products, but the scope of this thread is about the electronics industry in general.

For the entire industry? Then nothing will happen. The west doesn't have nearly the balls to cut China out of the loop.
China has a controlled and declining cloning of western IP because there are trade treaties. Without the treaties, China will clone everything and dump them for cheap to non western countries.
That will be huge disaster for the west. Consider the huge booming market of South America, Eastern Europe, Russia, India and Africa.
People will get rich, eventually. For those don't essentially have to play with the west, what's the reason not to buy cheap goods from China if the quality is good enough and the price is cheap enough?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: imo on December 17, 2018, 11:37:44 pm
If she did, she would be doing it in China, where US and CA has no jurisdiction at.
You are not informed well, it seems..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction
Almost all employees (US or none-US) working for US companies off shore (ie. in EU, or China), or business partners of US companies, have got somewhere in their contracts or other related documents an information that several US laws have extraterritorial jurisdiction, thus they have to be aware of possible consequences.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 17, 2018, 11:41:32 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction

If US can request Chinese citizens working in China to abide by US laws, then I'm pretty sure all anti-communism activists in all countries with diplomatic relation with China should get tagged, and captured upon entry of Chinese boarder if they ever visited China in their entire life.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: imo on December 18, 2018, 01:23:02 am
The U.S. (and probably Canada) can enforce that easily by applying a typical definition of "US Persons":
Quote
U.S. Persons. Includes any U.S. citizen or permanent resident alien, wherever located, any entity organized under the laws of the United States (including foreign branches), or any person (i.e., individual or entity) within the United States.
Thus when breaching any agreements related to FCPA, OFAC, DPL, SDN List, etc., the CFO is primarily responsible, as the CFO is responsible for Compliance.

When a CFO comes to US, he/she is considered an US Person.

Btw, you cannot do any business in high-tech area with US companies (including their foreign branches), unless you agree to be compliant with above Acts.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 18, 2018, 12:52:12 pm
chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

Natural selection. Those garbage manufacturers have been phased out.
Huawei is definitely not making garbage. It's a very powerful company that has its army of lawyers and engineers, trying to achieve world dominance on its industry.

An army of lawyers and engineers? You got that right... the People's Liberation Army of lawyers and engineers :-DD.

Huawei definitely makes garbage. I owned a Huawei phone once. Crap design. The comrades who designed this clearly tried to get it do perform functions way beyond its limited hardware capability. Battery life was poor too. Huawei: You get what you pay for. The only worse phone I ever had was the American designed HP Compaq HP-6515. This was an unbelievably bad design from a system, hardware and software perspective. It was not not fit for purpose as a phone or anything besides maybe as a door stop, or maybe to help fund Carly Fiorina's payout. A waste of $1,100. HP: You don't get what you pay for - you get ripped off. I have never bought any HP or Huawei product since.

I have a Samsung S8, and it is a terrific phone. Very happy with it. Never had a problem with it in the two years I have had it. Very well designed by competent engineers in South Korea.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on December 18, 2018, 07:16:35 pm
Huawei ran a lot of ads during Stanley Cup hockey season earlier this year here in Canada, not sure if they did in the US.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 18, 2018, 07:29:40 pm
An army of lawyers and engineers? You got that right... the People's Liberation Army of lawyers and engineers :-DD.

Huawei definitely makes garbage.

I have a Samsung S8, and it is a terrific phone.

Huawei spent $13Bn in 2017 on R&D, and it proposed $15+Bn in 2018.
Huawei has 10k+ employees making 1M+ CNY each year, and 1k+ employees making 5M+ CNY each year, as of 2017.
Its research topic is broader than most people think. It's not just making telecom gears and phones.
Due to its special position, it has to worry about the west cutting off its supply, just like ZTE. In return, it has to clone everything they use in their designs.
It doesn't manufacture the cloned artifacts due to IP law restrictions, but it stockpiles the technology, in case one day the west acts up.
For instance, it has its own RF PA transistor technology, though it sells products with NXP parts. If needed, it can make its own RF LDMOS.
Similarly, while its ASICs for telecom gears and phones are taped out by TSMC, it also designs backend processes with GF, Samsung and other fabs, in case Taiwan acts up.
And again, many its low volume products are not FPGA based. Huawei ASIC-ify everything, to circumvent western IP sanction.
That greatly increased its budget, to beyond what a similar western company has to spend to obtain the same product outcome.

Also, it does a lot of emerging businesses, such as EV, EV chargers and telecom center power supply solutions.
My offer from Huawei power electronics was 400k CNY for the first year, 600k for the second year, and from then sky is the limit. I declined it, but I appreciate it.

Which garbage did you buy? If it's a burner phone from your sim card provider, then it is supposed to be made down to a cost, not up to a standard.
Are you comparing a flagship Samsung S series with a free Huawei phone? Because I've used a Samsung Mega series, free phone from China Mobile, and it is a POS, no more.
If you are comparing with S8, you gotta compare with Honor 9 or higher models.

And for the record, Huawei doesn't represent the best quality of phones from China. It's the most advanced in terms of technology, but the building quality is not as good as some more niche brands like OnePlus.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 19, 2018, 04:45:10 am
New Zealand says Huawei ban not because it's Chinese
=> https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/technology/new-zealand-huawei-ban-not-because-chinese-10979130 (https://www.channelnewsasia.com/news/technology/new-zealand-huawei-ban-not-because-chinese-10979130)

Yeah, right, because puppy supposed to obey what master said, just shut up and do it, no need to spin off with silly excuse.


Power of the Five Eyes in Huawei ban
=> https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12179007 (https://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=12179007)

UK, Canada and Australia have been very good puppies, good boys, now bark & bite, and don't forget the wiggle afterwards.


U.S. Steps Up Pressure on Germany Over Huawei Security Concerns
=> https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-18/u-s-is-said-to-ratchet-up-huawei-security-concerns-to-germany (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-12-18/u-s-is-said-to-ratchet-up-huawei-security-concerns-to-germany)

'No evidence' of Huawei spying, says German IT watchdog
=> https://phys.org/news/2018-12-evidence-huawei-spying-german-watchdog.html (https://phys.org/news/2018-12-evidence-huawei-spying-german-watchdog.html)

Traitor ? or naughty German ?


Its hard not to believe that this CFO hostage is part of the grand plan, that was carefully planned and executed.

Curious on the next steps, Lenovo ? Alibaba ?  :-//
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 19, 2018, 06:21:56 am
I think  BravoV this has little to do with anyone being Chinese it has everything to do with Huawei not being a USA owned company therefore bad evil and most of all another easy meal for Trump and Co. This is not China vs the World this is political BS from the US for ideological and political points at home.

Those of us with written alliances and pacts of various sorts with the USA as legal agreements we are obliged to commit to some things at times that are not always in our best interests.

To call us as a nation US puppy's is quite frankly just wrong and pissy at best. We have the right to voice our opinions of dissent to our government or in public and boot their asses to the curb if they upset us to much unlike the Chinese Totalitarian State! Our current Federal mob is on shakey ground already (not intending to start a debate on this just a numerical fact).

The USA's protectionist model does no country any favours including their own and the increases to it under Trump are playing to his selected home audience at the expense of their countries finances.

So please stop towing your parties own line of BS and look at why it is being done rather than playing the butt hurt card.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2018, 06:30:52 am
To call us as a nation US puppy's is quite frankly just wrong and pissy at best.

We have the right to voice our opinions of dissent to our government or in public and boot their asses to the curb if they upset us to much unlike the Chinese Totalitarian State!

Because it is a puppet puppy of the USA. If a country's people and their leaders can't do whatever they want in their boarders with no fucks given to any other countries, then it is not an independent power. Puppet at most, slave more realistically.

And pathetically, the so called western democracy has to be held liable for all of this. People need to wank about democracy, and US is a good example of democracy or at least as it seems, so people cling on US's enslavement. Any political power with any gut in it should not allow such to happen. Keep American democracy from tainting the country is the leader's obligation. And it seems yours didn't do his job well.

And elected or not, the top leaders will always be corrupted and power hungry, given the power. If you are put to the position, you will do the same. Human nature. Just some pretends to be playing nice, some don't.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 19, 2018, 06:45:34 am
You are wrong Economically the USA is number three on our list behind China and Japan. https://dfat.gov.au/trade/resources/trade-at-a-glance/pages/default.aspx

Militarily we and politically we have agreements with a lot of countries including China and the USA and fairly much all countries in the world to use the word Puppies in diminutive of all of those relationships and no more than a generalist put down.

Democracy is not perfect as I have stated a lot previously in this thread but what it grants us is the right to try and improve it. The Chinese people are run over by tanks when they try or dissapeared. This is no more than the lesser of two evils and both fall short.

I like this guys take on China generally and have watched his stuff for a while, he lives there for a chunk of the year has a Chinese wife and is a Canadian. Well worth a watch.

https://youtu.be/4wLBaDiZtP8
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 19, 2018, 02:50:20 pm
When China puts a dissident under house arrest not only can they not leave their house, nobody can visit them either. And I think the rest of their family is also in a state of quarantine.

And they literally have police camped outside on the doorstep.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 19, 2018, 05:20:32 pm
When China puts a dissident under house arrest not only can they not leave their house, nobody can visit them either.

Already a mercy compared of living in a jail.

And I think the rest of their family is also in a state of quarantine.

Evidence?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 19, 2018, 06:57:53 pm
It is better than putting them in jail, thats true.

No, I don't have any "evidence" besides my impression from reading their stories.

I get your point, its a complicated moral situation.

The world deserves better than all this.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 19, 2018, 09:10:54 pm
Cdev,

Extrapolate the living conditions in present day USA to a country with a population which is five times larger living in the same space.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 19, 2018, 09:42:21 pm
You're right, I'm unlikely to ever understand fully what it must be like.

Nor am I able to understand the issues driving US government policy, either. But, as somebody who believes in democracy and especially in the essential nature of a public sphere and discussion and government of by and for the people (not just my own) I think that both Chinese and we Americans as well as people in all of the other countries in the world all deserve far better than what we're getting now from both governments and industries, who have gone to great lengths to hijack where we're all going into a totally wrong direction.

I don't buy into the highly mobile global capital demanding more and more argument, even if it is true, thats what governments job is to do to say no.

I am for a race to the top not a race to the bottom.


Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 19, 2018, 09:56:21 pm
I'm glad you brought that up though, because it needed to be said.

But nor does the existence of these hotbeds of poverty justify the elimination of the positive things that have happened elsewhere. Nor does it justify the continuation of conditions of absolute insane inequality where people cant even afford to send their children to school.

Cdev,

Extrapolate the living conditions in present day USA to a country with a population which is five times larger living in the same space.

Everybody deserves to live better.

We should make our goal being a planet where everybody lives well and nobody lives an hyperconsumption lifestyle or makes hundreds of times more than what a typical worker makes.

 And nobody should have to live in near starvation conditions, or watch their child die or go blind, because they cant afford a common medicine, especially not in countries that have advanced science or space programs or a huge number of wealthy people like the US, China or India.

Nobody should be forced to put up with conditions that cause cancer or other toxic chemical related conditions.

The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 19, 2018, 10:08:23 pm
Ah.. to live in a perfect world.... where everybody works as much as they can and has as much as they need...
 A phrase often mentioned by my father.. who had heard it from his father... who had heard it during the October revolution...
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: edy on December 19, 2018, 10:46:40 pm
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.

Yes that's why you have revolutions and wars. The only problem is, you have bloodshed, people die, more aggressive elements come into power and then want to consolidate it and tend to corrupt the final result as they wish to stay in power. People exploit other people, it has been happening throughout history, and today is no different. There are few "benevolent patriarchs/matriarchs" who really truly lead the people with unselfish motivation and full respect of the population and step down when their time is due, giving themselves and their all to the end. History is much more rife with power-hungry leaders and politics in a way selects for this trait. When it comes to revolutions and wars, I would say it is even more so. But even in cases where the population and leaders truly believed in the "cause" initially (typically social justice movements, socialism, communism, etc)... once the system is established, human nature degenerates it again into a corrupt system where those in power misappropriate funds, try to posture themselves and give advantages to their inner circle. You will be hard-pressed to find too many "G-d" fearing or upstandingly moral individuals who always tell the truth and are unselfishly helping their fellow humans.

The system of democracy we have today, especially in the US, seems to put huge power in the hands of a few elitists, corporations, campaign contributors (PAC's) and so on.... to influence voters and elections and policies in their favor, especially after people are elected, all sorts of laws and rules and regulations are passed to benefit them (payback). Transparency, oversight and rules have tried to reduce this and people are more aware of it, so the system... while not perfect... is at least aware of issues and the population can work to improve things. I think the media and free speech is essential to this, as is the right to gather, protest and collectively organize. You could argue that in the US, the right to bear arms also is a major factor. One of the first things a dictatorship does is stop communication, isolate people and suppress them, create mistrust between neighbours, punish anyone who resists or voices dissent, reduces their ability to fight, spreads rumors, obfuscates the truth. The "organized chaos" that is a typical democracy is much preferable to the "oiled production machine" of a dictatorship or uniform society. One elevates the individual and brings out the best in people and rewards them, the other drives them into submission and fear. We don't need to debate this, history has shown us already what systems people prefer to be in. Don't confuse the fact that despotic regimes still exist with the idea that they work... No, they persist due to an iron fist and given the chance, the population would revolt. Unfortunately if most citizens are born inside a prison, live in the prison their whole life, and never see outside that prison, never learn about any others (or are fed propaganda about how their system is superior than all others) they will be brain-washed and compliant and stick to the party line until the day they die.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: coppice on December 19, 2018, 11:10:32 pm
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.
"Some else should fix it" always ends well.  :)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 19, 2018, 11:24:53 pm
The people of the planet need to slap the governments in the face with a cold wet rag and get them to start working to fix these things instead of putting their collective elitist wagons in a circle and trying to obfuscate what they are doing.

The system of democracy totalitarian communist state we have today, especially in the US China , seems to put huge power in the hands of a few elitists, corporations, campaign contributors (PAC's) and so on.... to influence ......

See not very far removed at all. Just some food for thought keep your minds and hearts open but be wary of BS, hypocrisy and propaganda.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 19, 2018, 11:59:32 pm
A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.

The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
??? Human rights gives citizens a minimum of protection from the state. It says the state (and anyone else) isn't allowed to murder me, torture me or turn me into a slave. I prefer to keep my human rights thank you. Your definition of cult is strange.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 12:05:44 am
I'm not sure how insisting the law is absolute and calling human rights go together. Human rights are legal rights and therefore law too.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 12:50:08 am
I'm not sure how insisting the law is absolute and calling human rights go together. Human rights are legal rights and therefore law too.

According to Chinese constitution, the existence of communist party goes first.

Human right terms in Chinese constitution go from article 33 to article 40. Articles 13 and 16~18 protect property ownership, and article 4 protects ethnicity and belief freedom.
However, literally the very first clause defines communism being China's fundamental society system and Chinese Communist Party being the most intrinsic feature.
Any organisation or person shall not sabotage the leadership of communist party.

Also, all rights given to the people aren't essentially given to the citizens. In China, all people are citizen, but not all citizens are people.
People is defined as citizens who are not the enemy of the state and its idealism.
In other words, if you propose anti-communism, you violate article 1 of Chinese constitute, hence you are not given certain rights as people.

Being citizen you have certain rights, regardless being people or not. Despite having the rights, you are not given any power to practice them.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: imo on December 20, 2018, 01:04:53 am
After having a lot of fun, here is an interesting technical comparison of network infrastructure components of Huawei, Ericsson, Nokia.
Interestingly, the Huawei boxes are full of Xilinxes, Alteras, ADs, TIs, NXPs, MAXIMs, etc. Try to purchase the chips in larger quantities without confirming the base stations will not be sold to certain entities.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcLvF2C8eM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcLvF2C8eM)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiO97E7lZWU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PiO97E7lZWU)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3zzL8f67A0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3zzL8f67A0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9-KhfQM3nI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9-KhfQM3nI)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO127zY3voE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qO127zY3voE)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNaAQ3a7Duc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HNaAQ3a7Duc)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 01:13:07 am
Quote
article 4 protects ethnicity and belief freedom.
but you cant really because
Quote
citizens who are not the enemy of the state and its idealism
combined with members of the communist party being as wealthy as all get out. You have a basic conflict maximising the power of the state over its population whenever it wants to signed off as LAW.

And there lies the fundamental hypocrisy of the Chinese government it is not a communist one in any traditional sense of the word it is about control by a select few over all and is Totalitarianism. Australia with our social programs and support for those in need is more communist than China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 01:15:37 am
According to Chinese constitution, the existence of communist party goes first.

Human right terms in Chinese constitution go from article 33 to article 40. Articles 13 and 16~18 protect property ownership, and article 4 protects ethnicity and belief freedom.
However, literally the very first clause defines communism being China's fundamental society system and Chinese Communist Party being the most intrinsic feature.
Any organisation or person shall not sabotage the leadership of communist party.

Also, all rights given to the people aren't essentially given to the citizens. In China, all people are citizen, but not all citizens are people.
People is defined as citizens who are not the enemy of the state and its idealism.
In other words, if you propose anti-communism, you violate article 1 of Chinese constitute, hence you are not given certain rights as people.

Being citizen you have certain rights, regardless being people or not. Despite having the rights, you are not given any power to practice them.
How is that less hypocritical than the west you like to regularly qualify as such here? That's just deciding that as a government you're number one and that you can decide on a whim who has rights. I'm not saying western governments are never inconsistent, but they do seem to be more consistent than "whatever we feel like". Not to mention that lumping the west together like that isn't likely to be very accurate.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 01:47:25 am
We (western countries) have done something similar with capitalism. Under the free market system money is free speech. Money talks, literally. It is protected free speech.

If you propose some change that will make you twenty million dollars and I have another idea of what to do that I can claim will make five hundred (million dollars) chances are I will win if its plausible.

People can vote for anything that is capitalism. This emerged out of the post WWII economic order because of Bretton Woods and the desire for a means of preventing the unpredictability of democracy and national politics from impacting investments.

See How to understand policy trilemmas | World Economic Forum
https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/04/how-to-understand-policy-trilemmas/ (https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2015/04/how-to-understand-policy-trilemmas/)

In the US its enforced by treaties, such as the one described below, that preempt state laws that represent inconsistencies with certain treaties, which ensure the rights of international investment remain consistent.

Basically everything that was done during and after the New Deal era is off the table, and the parts of it which remain are being gradually phased out. They're framed as trade barriers..

See Jeffry C. Clark, The United States Proposal for a General Agreement on Trade in Services and its Preemption of Inconsistent State Law,

https://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1532&context=iclr (https://lawdigitalcommons.bc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1532&context=iclr)

Deregulation is mandated by these treaties. It has to be one way, pretty much.

Otherwise people would just vote for things they wanted, and corporations would have to buy expensive all risk insurance like they used to.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 20, 2018, 01:50:57 am
"We are ready to govern....

We have a spending plan for 6.6 bilion dollars..."

Bill Shorten's words somewhat paraphrased
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 01:51:47 am
How is that less hypocritical than the west you like to regularly qualify as such here?

Chinese government is unfair, that's true. But it didn't try to hide it.
Literally in the constitution is says the power belongs to the people, practiced through the representatives of the people, which are elected by lower level of people's representatives recursively.
Due to the human nature of clinging onto power, the higher level the election goes, the higher level of elitism it is.
In other words, power of China as a country is practiced by the elites. The constitution never tried to hide that.

Human rights gives citizens a minimum of protection from the state. It says the state (and anyone else) isn't allowed to murder me, torture me or turn me into a slave.

China has a fairly loose political principle among dictator countries. In China, the law allows you to say anything, as long as you don't suggest acts and you don't invade other people's freedom, such as doxing people.
Similarly, even if you said something that suggests acts that damages Chinese communist party's fundamental interests, you are just asked to shut up.
Many Chinese people looking for immigration to the west use this trick. Conduct anti-communism, get a few month of sentence, maybe even carried out out of jail, then get political asylum of a western country.
For most of the time, even that will not happen. You only get your posts deleted, or your government ID banned on several major forums, and that's it.

Only people with death wish to take down the government get erased.
For anyone with any amount of flex in political views, they will live in China just fine.
If you choose to fight Chinese government, and made it clear that only one can survive, then you've asked for it.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 02:02:18 am
Chinese government is unfair, that's true. But it didn't try to hide it.
Literally in the constitution is says the power belongs to the people, practiced through the representatives of the people, which are elected by lower level of people's representatives recursively.
Due to the human nature of clinging onto power, the higher level the election goes, the higher level of elitism it is.
In other words, power of China as a country is practiced by the elites. The constitution never tried to hide that.

China has a fairly loose political principle among dictator countries. In China, the law allows you to say anything, as long as you don't suggest acts and you don't invade other people's freedom, such as doxing people.
Similarly, even if you said something that suggests acts that damages Chinese communist party's fundamental interests, you are just asked to shut up.
Many Chinese people looking for immigration to the west use this trick. Conduct anti-communism, get a few month of sentence, maybe even carried out out of jail, then get political asylum of a western country.
For most of the time, even that will not happen. You only get your posts deleted, or your government ID banned on several major forums, and that's it.

Only people with death wish to take down the government get erased.
For anyone with any amount of flex in political views, they will live in China just fine.
If you choose to fight Chinese government, and made it clear that only one can survive, then you've asked for it.
Hold on. It's unfair and doesn't try to hide it, but proclaims its power belongs to the people? Isn't that proclaiming you're by and and for all and not actually being it, even by law?

I accept that coming from different backgrounds and environments creates different views, but I'm trying to wrap my head around this one.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 02:03:51 am
In defense of our Legislators it appears to me that only the Senate really knows about this huge change they made. Possibly only a few Senators really understand it in its full sense.

The House has plausible deniability in case the s*** hits the fan in some way. Because it could turn into a MAJOR disaster. It already did actually, in 2008. IMHO.

Read https://docs.wto.org/dol2fe/Pages/FE_Search/FE_S_S006.aspx?Query=(@Symbol=%20gats/sc/*)%20and%20((%20@Title=%20united%20states%20)%20or%20(@CountryConcerned=%20united%20states))&Language=ENGLISH&Context=FomerScriptedSearch&languageUIChanged=true# (Supplement #3)

Filed February 26, 1998 (the very last day)

last page, top, the single line where it says how the Glass-Steagall Act was going to be reformed and why.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 02:13:21 am
The URAA was signed December 8. 1994 by President Bill Clinton, and became effective January 1, 1995. Also thats when the first set of changes went into effect in the US, EU and the other original WTO Member nations. Read up on the progressive liberalisation of services. Progressive in this context means a one way street.  Regulating governments.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHIfSfb-RvM (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LHIfSfb-RvM)

The new plurilateral which is also being sponsored by Australia, is "opt out" instead of "opt in" like its predecessor, so it is really quite 'ambitious' as they put it.

In the people of the EU's case a notice has been provided here: http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6891-2013-ADD-1-DCL-1/en/pdf (http://data.consilium.europa.eu/doc/document/ST-6891-2013-ADD-1-DCL-1/en/pdf)




 

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 02:34:48 am
Hold on. It's unfair and doesn't try to hide it, but proclaims its power belongs to the people? Isn't that proclaiming you're by and and for all and not actually being it, even by law?

The power belongs to the people and is practiced by the elites among the people. Does it contradict itself? It seems perfectly fine to me.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 02:42:27 am
Hold on. It's unfair and doesn't try to hide it, but proclaims its power belongs to the people? Isn't that proclaiming you're by and and for all and not actually being it, even by law?

The power belongs to the people and is practiced by the elites among the people. Does it contradict itself? It seems perfectly fine to me.

Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

Power to change or attempt change is something most countries in the world allow. Totalitarian, Despotic and Religiously run states cling to power by reducing or removing the power of the people.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 02:51:51 am
The power belongs to the people and is practiced by the elites among the people. Does it contradict itself? It seems perfectly fine to me.
It's like saying "this cake belongs to us all" and then eating the entire thing yourself. The initial statement doesn't appear to be true.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 02:53:25 am
Apis,

This varies a lot from country to country. Unfortunately, collectively (speaking of the entire world) we failed to take the advice of Franz Neumann - read up on the arguments advanced by Neumann during the Nuremberg trial of fascist jurist Carl Schmitt in the immediate aftermath of WWII. They laid out some general principles of liberal democracy but those principles have run into a brick wall in the form of the aforementioned neoliberalism.

The governments for some countries are not democratic and they objected. So in the interests of business and investors we now have a world without many 'rights' which should have been established by now. We're actually going backwards. In particular rights to necessities are not established, if they are sold by anybody in a country. It may actually become FTA illegal for countries to reserve food for their poorest members, etc. Freedom is increasingly framed as the freedom to buy and sell.

I also highly recommend Hannah Arendt, "The Origins of Totalitarianism" which can be found online at https://monoskop.org/images/4/4e/Arendt_Hannah_The_Origins_of_Totalitarianism_1962.pdf -

Some treaties have attempted to advance universal human rights, with mixed success.


Human rights gives citizens a minimum of protection from the state. It says the state (and anyone else) isn't allowed to murder me, torture me or turn me into a slave. I prefer to keep my human rights thank you. Your definition of cult is strange.

The best definition of a cult was advanced by Robert J. Lifton in his "Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of "Brainwashing" in China"

There is a page on Wikipedia about it but its deliberately perhaps been obfuscated so the description is not very good or understandable. There are far better web pages to read about Lifton's book if you're not going to buy it. What he says about cults holds true for all cults. We live in a very cult-like society today, with a number of different cults all demanding you suspend your logical mind and give them your complete allegiance.

Another good description of cult-like thinking was written by Irving Janis in his study of 'groupthink' .

North Korea's communism, which is by all accounts, questioned by a larger and larger number of North Koreans is based on Chinese Communism of the 1950s and 60s and is perhaps the purest example of a cult today, but even it is in serious trouble. Other cults are likely found in the US and EU and the other Anglo-speaking countries, with neoliberalism, which is very powerful, and based on a lot of long debunked economic theories, and definitely a cult, perhaps still China, but honestly, I dont feel qualified to say, Om Shinrikyo in Japan, the Aum group was definitely a cult.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 20, 2018, 03:12:36 am
Many "western countries" violate the human rights too, but many at least try. Here in Europe were we have the European Court of Human Rights (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Court_of_Human_Rights) for example, and we no longer use the death penalty. I don't get why China doesn't embrace at least the bulk of it, it's pretty basic stuff. Now the Chinese government just open themselves up to easy criticism. I don't get why they US doesn't abolish the death penalty either though.

Quote
The six communist countries abstentions centred around the view that the Declaration did not go far enough in condemning fascism and Nazism. Eleanor Roosevelt attributed the abstention of Soviet bloc countries to Article 13, which provided the right of citizens to leave their countries.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

cdev:
Thanks for the reading advice, sounds interesting. I also like Hannah Arendt.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 03:15:05 am
Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

The difference being in China, everyone has a chance of being elite.
The majority of successful business persons in China are born just as every other civilian.
You don't be an elite then be successful. You be successful then be an elite.

The earnings elasticity in China is high, at 60%, way higher than average western countries, but very close to certain western countries with high rich people concentration.
The earnings elasticity in US and Italy is 47%, UK being 50%, and Luxembourg at 75%.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 03:17:48 am
Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

Power to change or attempt change is something most countries in the world allow. Totalitarian, Despotic and Religiously run states cling to power by reducing or removing the power of the people.

This is no longer true as I have been trying to explain. because it is framed as conflicting with the new economic governance institutions (http://www.levyinstitute.org/conferences/minsky2011/presentations/Wallach.pdf), who hold the real power. This is not a secret, if you know where to look.

Its a diagnostic sign of totalitarianism (See Arendt, page 413) when real power is held by an power structure which duplicates the functionality of the old traditional institutions and the people are left barking up the wrong tree, in a futile attempt to change policy, when of course that power has moved elsewhere.

Google the phrase 'inverted totalitarianism' .

The test is of course whether the people could vote to actually effect change and have it happen.

If you think about it, in a pluralist state, if both parties are in on the game, there is no way to bring that about.

This is why, for example, in the US in 2016, it was unspoken that Bernie Sanders could not win in the Democratic Party. Because his entire platform was violative of GATS the 1995 treaty and were he to have won, then there would be a demand to implement that platform, which would cause a huge ruckus in the WTO and basically threaten all of the trade deals.

Democracy makes peoples lives better but its being prevented because people voting for things they need would cut into the expected profits of TNCs.



I think that for this reason, the (US) Democrats deliberately lost in 2016. Despite Sanders huge popularity and a guaranteed win there, they couldn't risk a victory, there would be too much pressure to fix things.


Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 03:30:40 am
Please clarify what you mean. Do you mean via the college entrance examination?  What about the Uigurs? Or the millions of children - many the children of North Korean women who are persona non grata and live in fear for their lives in China. Their poor children who have no 'hukou' and don't exist? What about the 'migrants' who are unable to get permission to live in urban areas but who go there for work? What about people with 'bad family background'? I would be surprised if the social mobility there was as good or better than in in the EU's most equal states even with the narrow but significant improvements in income for the well educated and lucky. It depends a lot on who you are and who you know. certainly China HAS done much better than India, though in creating a middle class. They have come a long way, thats true, and thats likely because there has been pressure on them to do right by their people. But in many ways the government there is really clueless - at least as far as understanding what the rest of the world expects of them.

I do understand what you are trying to say and I am mulling your argument that its better to know where people really stand than to be lied to. You have to understand that there are certain things that would drive people half mad if they knew them, especially naive young people. But, they would eventually get a grip on the situation and would make plans based on reality and not false hopes.

Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

The difference being in China, everyone has a chance of being elite.
The majority of successful business persons in China are born just as every other civilian.
You don't be an elite then be successful. You be successful then be an elite.

The earnings elasticity in China is high, at 60%, way higher than average western countries, but very close to certain western countries with high rich people concentration.
The earnings elasticity in US and Italy is 47%, UK being 50%, and Luxembourg at 75%.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 03:35:30 am
I don't get why China doesn't embrace at least the bulk of it, it's pretty basic stuff.

China doesn't execute many people, instead many people are sentenced to death with 2 year buffer time, which automatically gets bumped to life sentence at the end of the two years if no major crimes are conducted in prison during the two years, which then automatically gets bumped to 20 years imprisonment in two years, again, providing no major violations.

So death sentence in China is really 24-year imprisonment.

Death sentence with immediate (read: one month) execution does get sentenced, but very rare. According to Chinese law, at least one, usually two, of the four extremes can qualify death sentence with immediate execution:

1. Crimes with extreme inhumane methods (say, torture to death)
2. Crimes with extreme negative social influence (say, a cop murders a civilian)
3. Crimes with extreme devastating damage (say, blowing up a plane)
4. Crimes with extreme evil motivation (say, raping a child)

According to several international human right organizations' data, every year China sentences ~5000 death sentences, among them ~1500 are actually executed.
Considering every year Chinese DEA busts a number of armed drug syndicates, and armed drug crimes are usually qualified as death penalty with immediate execution, it's not hard to think the majority of the executed are drug gang members.
That makes the executed death penalty condemned only less than a few hundreds, excluding armed gangs.
For a country with 1.4Bn population, only less than a few hundreds executed per year for assorted reasons seems to be a fairly low percentage.

Another reason that death penalty still exists is that Chinese people like it. The traditional ideology for thousands of years is simple - pay lives with lives, pay money with money.
Multiple questionnaires conducted both by authority and civilian organizations both reveal the absolute vast majority population in China encourages death penalty for those did the absolute unthinkable.

//Edit: there are also two crimes in China that automatically result into death penalty, execute immediately, regardless consequence. One being killing a hostage by the kidnapper, the other being hijacking aircraft with casualties (even if the deceased being a terrorist killed by the resist) or extreme property damage.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 03:37:01 am
<snip>

Earnings elasticity is the opposite of social mobility. The higher the elasticity, the higher the fortification between classes.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 03:45:18 am
China doesn't execute many people, instead many people are sentenced to death with 2 year buffer time, which automatically gets bumped to life sentence at the end of the two years if no major crimes are conducted in prison during the two years, which then automatically gets bumped to 20 years imprisonment in two years, again, providing no major violations.

So death sentence in China is really 24-year imprisonment.

Death sentence with immediate (read: one month) execution does get sentenced, but very rare. According to Chinese law, at least one, usually two, of the four extremes can qualify death sentence with immediate execution:

1. Crimes with extreme inhumane methods (say, torture to death)
2. Crimes with extreme negative social influence (say, a cop murders a civilian)
3. Crimes with extreme devastating damage (say, blowing up a plane)
4. Crimes with extreme evil motivation (say, raping a child)

According to several international human right organizations' data, every year China sentences ~5000 death sentences, among them ~1500 are actually executed.
Considering every year Chinese DEA busts a number of armed drug syndicates, and armed drug crimes are usually qualified as death penalty with immediate execution, it's not hard to think the majority of the executed are drug gang members.
That makes the executed death penalty condemned only less than a few hundreds, excluding armed gangs.
For a country with 1.4Bn population, only less than a few hundreds executed per year for assorted reasons seems to be a fairly low percentage.

Another reason that death penalty still exists is that Chinese people like it. The traditional ideology for thousands of years is simple - pay lives with lives, pay money with money.
Multiple questionnaires conducted both by authority and civilian organizations both reveal the absolute vast majority population in China encourages death penalty for those did the absolute unthinkable.
Even if it's "just" 1500 executions, it's still more than all the other nations in the world combined. The fact that the government refuses to release official numbers suggests the numbers aren't favourable. "An eye for an eye" is a common concept in undeveloped parts of the world, which tends to disappear as they develop. It's not a productive or very effective approach. Harsh penalties do not equal effective penalties.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 03:53:36 am
Fundamentally wrong the 'people' have little or no power to change anything. You the 'people' are told how to behave or else by your elite.

The difference being in China, everyone has a chance of being elite.
The majority of successful business persons in China are born just as every other civilian.
You don't be an elite then be successful. You be successful then be an elite.

The earnings elasticity in China is high, at 60%, way higher than average western countries, but very close to certain western countries with high rich people concentration.
The earnings elasticity in US and Italy is 47%, UK being 50%, and Luxembourg at 75%.

And yet you ignore what is a core difference in China the PEOPLE HAVE NO POWER unless you are of the elite or have Guanxi with the elite or pay bribes to the elite. A farmer or factory worker in China has NO ability to ask, speak about much less demand change of the system. To believe people have power in the Chinese system is just swallowing the parties line of BS.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 03:56:04 am
Even if it's "just" 1500 executions, it's still more than all the other nations in the world combined. The fact that the government refuses to release official numbers suggests the numbers aren't favourable. "An eye for an eye" is a common concept in undeveloped parts of the world, which tends to disappear as they develop. It's not a productive or very effective approach. Harsh penalties do not equal effective penalties.

American cops, DEA and troops combined kill a few times more than that amount each year.
When I say 1500, I included those captured armed gang members who shot cops before being captured, and those human vessels transporting kilograms of drugs in a swallowed condom.
For various reasons except for gang and drug activities, the number goes below a few hundreds.

I personally know two murderers, both remote family members. Neither got the needle.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:00:45 am
And yet you ignore what is a core difference in China the PEOPLE HAVE NO POWER unless you are of the elite or have Guanxi with the elite or pay bribes to the elite.

That's exactly how my country is designed to be. It's equal, but not fair. The bribe part is to be eliminated, and I agree with you on that part.

The system stimulates everyone to fight for power, thus exciting productivity.

Even in Mao's time it was in the law that China was led by worker class, which at that time, was considered advanced, compared with farmer class.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 04:12:42 am
Whats going to happen in China when AI starts cutting into the jobs that go to people? When the worker class is no more and there is no longer almost any work. Except for the most skilled, really world class talent.

This is inevitable in the not too distant future, in fact its already happening. lets say its 2045 and only 25% of the population has any work at all and most of those jobs are sporadic. Business just runs itself. How will your elite justify their luxurious lives when people are starving and hungry?

Social safety nets are being dismantled.

In the Western countries all the elites are of one mind.  They want to present a united front against "communism", which they very broadly define as people sharing almost anything. Anything that cuts into profits.

Now granted, I am sure they Chinese elites have a cozy relationship with their Western counterparts on certain levels but, lets face it, people are people. And China is a 'peoples republic'. The original one.

 If the government can no longer keep work flowing to the populace, would there be another 1989?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 04:12:56 am
American cops, DEA and troops combined kill a few times more than that amount each year.
When I say 1500, I included those captured armed gang members who shot cops before being captured, and those human vessels transporting kilograms of drugs in a swallowed condom.
For various reasons except for gang and drug activities, the number goes below a few hundreds.

I personally know two murderers, both remote family members. Neither got the needle.
I honestly can't find that in any numbers from organisations who monitor these kinds of things and the description of what's included seems to describe an actual trial and execution. Not shootings or ad hoc executions during arrest. If this was the case, those DEA deaths would be included too which would level the playing field.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:19:17 am
I honestly can't find that in any numbers from organisations who monitor these kinds of things and the description of what's included seems to describe an actual trial and execution. Not shootings or ad hoc executions during arrest. If this was the case, those DEA deaths would be included too which would level the playing field.

I was including shootings during confronting.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:24:24 am
Whats going to happen in China when AI starts cutting into the jobs that go to people? When the worker class is no more and there is no longer almost any work. Except for the most skilled, really world class talent.

This is inevitable in the not too distant future, in fact its already happening. lets say its 2045 and only 25% of the population has any work at all and most of those jobs are sporadic. Business just runs itself. How will your elite justify their luxurious lives when people are starving and hungry?

I don't think this is going to be a problem in China. Service will be a big part in China's future economy system.
In China, the core value is competition. Human fights human. Everyone wants their kids to win from the starting line.
This means, education, pediatrics and similar fields will have very high market share, over traditional industry.

Even now, China's most rich people, excluding those really rich capitalists and politicians, are doctors and teachers.
It's not hard for a high school teacher to make more than a university professor, thanks the the fierce competition of higher education entrance exam.

Internal competition and cruel society will be the engine of China's society. It provides jobs and circulation of money, at little resource usage.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 04:25:21 am
Large numbers of Americans die of treatable illnesses because of lack of medical care. Even a small medical debt prevents access to the health care system. This is the situation in China and India too. I don't know which is worse.

A LOT of people die because they cant get medical care. They blame it on themselves. This destruction of the poor's self esteem is a particularly insidious form of brainwashing.

In the US its the working poor who fall through the cracks. They make too much to get help but not enough to afford health care.

This guy tried to fix this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBZz070m-k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBZz070m-k)

He died a few weeks after this video was taken.

----

Meanwhile, Trump is bonding with Kim Jong Un..

BBC: "Trump on Kim Jong-un: 'We fell in love'

The US president told a rally in Wheeling, West Virginia that the North Korean leader had sent him "beautiful" letters. The pair met in a landmark summit earlier this year after previously exchanging threats."

Here is the problem, a culture of impunity. Study after study shows that we would be smart to not encourage people to aspire to be rich because the rich are far more likely to be amoral and do ethically anti-social things. They are leading the planet into a situation almost guaranteed to end in disaster with lie after lie.

If you ask me, ideology is a trap, what we need is to give people love and mutual respect but doing that requires ending the extreme cult of competition. Because thats what it is.

We don't need to compete like that any more. We're outgrowing any need to. Thats what they are trying so hard to hide.

Its science that is responsible for our advances, not neoliberalism.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 04:27:57 am
I was including shootings during confronting.
Those don't appear to be included in the numbers in either case.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:29:48 am
This is the situation in China and India too. I don't know which is worse.

Yes, but not to that extent. In China, we have professional drug smugglers smuggling cloned western drugs from unauthorized Indian pharmacies, at a few percent of the original price.
Recently a Chinese film on this topic was aired, and hit top box office revenue quickly. Usually, such sensitive topics would be censored.
If the film was allowed to air, I expect either Chinese government will set up channels to legally import cloned western drugs from India, or Chinese government is starting to clone western drugs on its own.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 04:30:06 am
Large numbers of Americans die of treatable illnesses because of lack of medical care. Even a small medical debt prevents access to the health care system. This is the situation in China and India too. I don't know which is worse.

A LOT of people die because they cant get medical care. They blame it on themselves. This destruction of the poor's self esteem is a particularly insidious form of brainwashing.

In the US its the working poor who fall through the cracks. They make too much to get help but not enough to afford health care.

This guy tried to fix this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBZz070m-k (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWBZz070m-k)

He died a few weeks after this video was taken.
Could the injecting of personal agenda items into random forum discussions perhaps be dialled back a tad?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:31:48 am
I was including shootings during confronting.
Those don't appear to be included in the numbers in either case.

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 04:34:34 am
In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:36:18 am
In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.

My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 04:38:41 am
My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 04:50:35 am
He's pointing out that hundreds of often nonwhite Americans die every year in avoidable confrontations with police where police shoot to kill often when there is no reason to use deadly force, its a serious problem in the US.

And it is different than the whole rest of the world, no other country has this problem.

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 04:50:44 am
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 04:52:35 am
Blueskull, what percentage of convicted Chinese 'criminals' turn out to be innocent on appeal, say when they are exonerated by DNA evidence?

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.

My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 04:56:38 am

That's exactly how my country is designed to be. It's equal, but not fair. The bribe part is to be eliminated, and I agree with you on that part.

The system stimulates everyone to fight for power, thus exciting productivity.

Even in Mao's time it was in the law that China was led by worker class, which at that time, was considered advanced, compared with farmer class.

It is absolutely not equal. Having NO say or option to say it is the opposite of equal. You seem intent on repeating the parties line in BS but it has no basis in truth. If you 'fight for power' in China you disappear or go to jail.

Unfortunately the ideals of Mao of a peoples state have become far more like what came before except you have replaced the Royalty with a peoples Royalty.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 04:58:43 am
My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Its entirely possible that North Korea executes huge numbers of people. For example, a few years ago when they closed down Kwaliso #22 just northeast of Hoeryong, across the Tumengang from China, Some of the prisoners were reportedly transported to Camp 16 near Hwasong (right next to the nuke testing site) but they appear to have been a very small number, they may have starved as many as 30,000 prisoners to death. Selling the food that was supposed to go to them. Now Hoeryong is being groomed to be a foodies paradise. A prisoner would likely have been beaten to death for eating a single apple.

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 05:02:46 am
Bluskull


http://webtv.un.org/meetings-events/human-rights-council/commissions-of-inquiry-hearings/watch/human-rights-in-north-korea-excerpts-from-the-public-hearings-of-the-commission-of-inquiry-23mins/3339582047001 (http://webtv.un.org/meetings-events/human-rights-council/commissions-of-inquiry-hearings/watch/human-rights-in-north-korea-excerpts-from-the-public-hearings-of-the-commission-of-inquiry-23mins/3339582047001)

Then there are four sets if hearings This is a good start,
http://webtv.un.org/search?term=dprk%2Bseoul (http://webtv.un.org/search?term=dprk%2Bseoul)

Its real.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 05:09:41 am
Blueskull, what percentage of convicted Chinese 'criminals' turn out to be innocent on appeal, say when they are exonerated by DNA evidence?

Many convicted in China are not based on any criminal lab examination.

The number one reason for death sentence with immediate execution is drug trafficking. It doesn't need anymore examination. If boarder control found more than 250grams of coke, or more than 50grams of heroin, or more than a kilo of weed, you are on your way to see the creator.

The second reason for death penalty is murder. Chinese cops are lazy. They don't go out to hunt suspects, unless it is a very high profile case. For most of the time, the suspect either got turned in by himself or captured by the witnesses. With such eye witness evidence and the suspect admitting his crime, what else needs to be examined?

The a few got the needle for economical offenses, mostly smuggling or corruption, with very solid evidence collected over months even years.

There are tricky cases, and there are certainly wrongful execution of death penalty, but only few pops on the TV every a long while.

Side fact: about 15% of death executed immediately sentences are rejected by supreme court. Unless the supreme court rules the suspect really deserves an immediate death, it will reject the sentence from lower level courts. In China, all death sentences with immediate execution must be reexamined by supreme court. Highest local courts used to have the rights to sentence death order, but not anymore since a decade ago.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: TerraHertz on December 20, 2018, 05:09:47 am
This matter and its context is so complicated I can't even begin to form any kind of synthesis worth sharing. Hence I've been avoiding it so far. But here's a few points I'd like to make.

Law, and moral justice, are different things. It's only the extent to which government tries to maintain an illusion that laws are Just, that varies from country to country. Most don't try very hard. Neither the USA or China have great track records there. Mostly the structure of Law is used to maintain control of the populace, by whatever Elites stand behind the facade of government and law.

In China there's little pretense of Law standing as a separate body for the common good. And the Elites also show themselves directly as the government. Albeit with the usual factional contests.

In the West and the USA it's much more about sustaining pretenses of freedom and democracy, while in reality it's mostly a farce of heavily rigged elections, highly advanced means of manipulating public opinion and illusions, and ensuring that only politicians/officials with robust blackmail handles get elected or appointed to positions of power. As always the Elites run almost everything, but do it with little public awareness. Mostly via various intermediaries such as large corporations, NGOs, UN/EU structures, but also through members acting as political figureheads. Such as the Bush and Clinton criminal families, with the near-totally Elite controlled MSM maintaining their 'face' despite endless uncovered crimes. Plus the usual factional contests. Some significant grouping names being 'deep state', DNC, MIC, Neocons, and the Z-entity.

There's a near infinity of topics related to incompatibilities between law and morality. Regarding Meng Wanzhou, the root issue is the US sanctions on Iran. These are _completely_ immoral and based on lies. So everything in law derived from those sanctions is also moraly void. Of course that has zero effect on what will actually happen.

The whole Middle East mess, with Iran a part of it, has deep origins. Simplifying, US plans to attack multiple Middle Eastern countries arose before 9/11, with the Neocon 'Project for a New American Century', aka PNAC group.
https://journal-neo.org/2014/10/09/the-neoconservative-hit-list-iraq-libya-and-now-syria-a-plan-for-global-u-s-military-supremacy/ (https://journal-neo.org/2014/10/09/the-neoconservative-hit-list-iraq-libya-and-now-syria-a-plan-for-global-u-s-military-supremacy/)

Targeted by the PNAC group: Iraq, Syria, Iran and Libya.
Right after 911, those war plans were put into action.

youtube   watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years
youtube   watch?v=WGkSNAHqpJM
Gen. Wesley Clark Reveals Middle East Invasion Was Pre-Planned & Iran is NEXT

That post-9/11 target list included Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, plus extras Lebanon, Somalia and Sudan.

Result: Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria suffered massive death and destruction. None of those countries had anything at all to do with 9/11.
Was it about oil? No not really. 'For the oil' is just a convenient cover story. There was a deeper objective. That list just happens to be countries included in Israel's 'Eretz Israel' expansion plans. Countries Israel hopes to destroy in order to subsume them. One can wonder why the USA's actions so closely conform to what Israel wants.

Libya also committed three unforgivable sins in US/Iraeli and Globalist banker eyes- #1 was to propose a gold-backed currency, #2 was Libya nationalizing the foreign oil holdings and using oil sales revenue to provide for the Libyan people, #3 was the Great Man Made River project. That was completed and turning Libya into an irrigated farming major food source in the ME. A success Israel could not allow to stand. So the US bombed the pipelines, pumping stations and even the factories that manufactured the pipes. No more Libyan miracle.

Iran has so far avoided destruction, for only one reason. After the breakup of the Soviet Union Iran bought some black market nukes from an ex-Soviet country. They presumably still have them, and no doubt were able to maintain them. Iran's missiles are pretty good, so they presumably can deliver those nukes if needed. This is why neither Israel or their proxy USA has attacked Iran.
All the US & Israeli administration hysteria about "Iran is about to develop nukes" is bullshit, and a code phrase for something else, quite real, that totally freaks out the US military.

Iran has a civilian nuclear power program, that works. They have their own rich uranium mines. They can refine uranium, and international inspections repeatedly verify they only refine to concentrations suitable for their power reactors. But that's what enrages the US/Israeli military.

Since you see, refining uranium to fuel, at any concentration, produces a waste product - nearly pure U238, aka depleted uranium. This has few uses, but one of them is militarily extremely significant. Munitions made of DU due to the metal's extreme density can penetrate heavy armor. The US & Israeli armies have _never_ fought an opponent who possesses DU weaponry. For all practical purposes they _cannot_ fight such a war. Because they rely on their weapons 'sophistication' and high tech, rather than quantity. But there's no sophistication that defends against a DU round. In such a fight attrition in armor and personnel would be very high. Beyond what the US can sustain, either practically or politically.

And so, Iran's peaceful nuclear program and growing DU stockpile, hence US inability to attack with conventional armor and defeat them easily like Iraq, drives the Neocons and Z-entity types into hysterics. It blocks the Eretz Israel (insane) dream. Meanwhile Iran could glassify both major cities in Israel if poked, so sneak nuclear attacks are fraught too.

That impasse and hysteria underlies everything done and said against Iran by Western powers. The sanctions are just more of the same. To what extent Pres. Trump is aware of this background, or what he gets told by mil. advisers, I have no idea.

But overall, the basis of sanctions against Iran are utter crap and lies. Sure, not a terribly nice government. To a large extent that is the fault of the USA and CIA's messing with Iranian politics for many decades. That just made things worse, and promotes the religious fanatics. Iran used to be an open and secular society.



As for Huawei's phones and coms gear, what I gather is that it's not so much a matter of them containing possible Chinese backdoors (which they may), but that they _don't_ contain the backdoors mandated by the US government. Unlike virtually all other phone manufacturers, that folded to NSA demands. Every now and then there's some MSM production designed to pretend most phones (eg Apple's) do not have backdoors and are immune to government attempts to pry, but it's all bullshit.
Probably Huawei is going to suffer painfully until they agree to comply. Sucks to be them.


Another factor is the ongoing struggle between the Globalist/Leftists/Dems/Deep State, vs Donald Trump. So, Pres Trump was making some significant progress in negotiations with China regarding tariffs and trade imbalance. Naturally, since that's something he's pretty good at.
Suddenly a massive spanner in the works, as Canada kidnaps a Chinese woman under color of law. She's not just well known in China, she's the daughter of a Chinese national hero - the head of Huawei. Who is also tight with the Chinese military and government.

The timing is extraordinarily bad. A disaster really. One can safely assume this was done to make things worse for Pres. Trump.  It certainly looks bad, and will make negotiations terribly difficult. Though he seems to be making the best he can of a 'complicated situation.'

That brings us to the 'impartiality and fairness of the courts.' Give me a break. Anyone who believes such fairy stories has never had anything to do with the legal system, and also has had their fingers in their ears for general news, their whole lives. Please stop watching so much TV, it damages the brain.

Here's a quote from an Australian High Court silk, passed to me by a friend (who was being screwed over by the system, totally unjustly.) "There is no justice in the legal system."
This is absolutely true in Australia (I've experienced it myself too), and even worse in the USA. I see no evidence that Canada is any different.

Her arrest, at this time, was clearly politically motivated. One can guess by which faction. The only useful question now is how to clean up the mess.
Sure, the Canadian courts now have to put on a show of being impartial and following the rule of law. Bully for them, but TOO LATE.

Otoh if the USA withdraws the extradition request, the Canadians would have to drop the case and release her.
The question is whether Pres. Trump can override whatever legal process is under way in the USA. Can he order it dropped? I don't know. Whatever he does, 'the optics' are going to be difficult to optimize. I really don't believe he had anything to do with initiating this.

Meanwhile the Deep State are currently trying everything they can think of to start WWIII:
* Ukraine trying to mine and destroy the Kerch Strait bridge with a British demolition nuke, and getting caught at it.
* Ukraine moving masses of heavy armor and artillery up for an imminent attack on the Donbass.
* Ukraine proposing to make another attempt to run warships through the Kerch Strait.
  (Poroshenko needs a state of emergency, to cancel upcoming elections which he'd very likely lose.)
* Turkey threatening to invade northern Syria - which would result in a 6-way fight between Turkey, Kurds, Syria, ISIS, US troops, and Russian forces. Actually 7, since Israel would wade in too.

Neither Trump nor Putin want WWIII. Conceivably Meng Wanzhou's arrest could have also been intended as a distraction, something to divert Trump's attention from other developments. Or someone wishes the Chinese leadership to be angry and perhaps a bit rash at this time. Or... it serves as a 'poisoner' for public attitude to high profile arrests in general? (Gee, I wonder who might be worried about such things?)

High level strategies typically consider multiple effects, weighing up pros and cons.


Oh btw. Here's what I came to this thread to post:
  http://thesaker.is/the-pentagon-realised-what-it-has-done-the-chinese-put-the-us-army-on-its-knees/ (http://thesaker.is/the-pentagon-realised-what-it-has-done-the-chinese-put-the-us-army-on-its-knees/)
About offshoring of critical industrial capacity.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Mr. Scram on December 20, 2018, 05:11:52 am
Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
Let's stick to the subject. War situations governed by entirely different sets of laws are a different subject. The battlefield can't be compared to civilian life. Besides, we're not discussing how many Uighur are killed by direct or indirect action in or outside of the camps in China either. I think neither of us wants to go there.

An execution is also something different than a death during an arrest or raid. While I won't deny the US police forces have some serious issues with the use of violence, those are generally not executions and certainly not deliberate from the perspective of the government. Also, pointing to the US for doing a bad thing doesn't make another bad thing good. The world condemns the extreme violence used by US police forces as well, and it isn't remotely as common in most other countries. It may surprise you that UK cops don't even carry guns. In the entirety of Europe, the total number of people killed by police each year are pretty much negligible.

Even if we assume the US executes more people being second isn't exactly an achievement, and I don't think that assumption is correct either.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 05:17:52 am
If you 'fight for power' in China you disappear or go to jail.

You don't fight the power in China, your fight FOR power (i.e. by getting rich, by being celebrity, by being prestigious, etc.).
This culture starts from kindergarten. Chinese kids are taught to be nice, be smart, and not to get into trouble.
Teachers in China treat smart and well behaving kids well, and trash those kids who fail exams.
The "better kids get more power" thing literally starts with kindergarten, and goes all the way to college graduation, where the treat evolves to monetary benefit when a graduate walks into real life.

Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 20, 2018, 05:20:53 am
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
Just because the US does bad things doesn't mean China should? Isn't the point of not having democracy that the elite can do what is right instead of what is popular. Populism is one of the downsides of democracy. Most of the countries in the world have abolished the death penalty.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 05:25:58 am
Just because the US does bad things doesn't mean China should?

We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
Banning drugs is a declaration on political incompatibility to the west and a declaration of absolute power of the government.
From that perspective, Chinese government has a very good reason on executing every drug dealers.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: TerraHertz on December 20, 2018, 05:36:20 am
Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.

Ahem... Some Australians understand. I think I do. And am very glad I don't have to live that way.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on December 20, 2018, 05:39:49 am
Besides, we're not discussing how many Uighur are killed by direct or indirect action in or outside of the camps in China either. I think neither of us wants to go there.

Separation is a felony in China that can be sentenced death. Standing up against armed force qualifies shoot on contact.
So a separatist standing up against armed force, with himself armed, get shot. What's wrong with it?

BTW, those Uighurs and Tibetans in China actually have privileges, as long as they accept the leadership of Chinese government.
Chinese government subsidize them with a lot of money if they want to move out and move to a Han ethnic majored city.
Also, they get admitted to high schools and universities with much lower exam threshold than Han ethnic students.
They get special treatment on social welfare, and they are allowed to carry cold weapons in observation of their ethnic tradition.
Even the law favors them in order to prevent riots.

With all benefits given, if you still try to fight your benefactor, you are asking for it.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 20, 2018, 05:51:40 am
We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
Banning drugs is a declaration on political incompatibility to the west and a declaration of absolute power of the government.
From that perspective, Chinese government has a very good reason on executing every drug dealers.
The Opium Wars was a dick move by the British empire ("the west" consists of different countries), and I can understand a strict policy against drugs. But the death penalty isn't effective at deterring crime and there is always the possibility of incorrect convictions. The government doesn't have to execute anyone, it has the power to take the moral high ground and not act as a murderer itself.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 05:53:36 am
You don't fight the power in China, your fight FOR power (i.e. by getting rich, by being celebrity, by being prestigious, etc.).
This culture starts from kindergarten. Chinese kids are taught to be nice, be smart, and not to get into trouble.
Teachers in China treat smart and well behaving kids well, and trash those kids who fail exams.
The "better kids get more power" thing literally starts with kindergarten, and goes all the way to college graduation, where the treat evolves to monetary benefit when a graduate walks into real life.

Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.

You need to open your mind  to what I am saying you are only repeating the parties doctrine of hypocrisy as a defense. Communist Styled Doctrine and Dogma have zero to do with getting ahead and are all about getting the 'people' to believe in the infallibility of the State and towing the party line. If you work hard and kiss the right asses you too will be rewarded.....

The Chinese system does not allow the 'people' to have any power. Your elite of lets just say a few thousand rules 1 billion+ who have no say in how they are ruled and 99.99% of them never will. That is not fair to the 'people' that is flawed to the vast majority.

Trying to make the claim that if you become xyz by doing abc might maybe let you have a say but only if the existing minority deems it allowed to anyone BORN with that sort of right for ALL OF THE PEOPLE of a society makes no sense at all.

I can get on social media, pick up a phone send a letter or email to any politician I like call them an asshole or even ask them pretty please with a cherry on top can you change xyz in China you can not do this at all. If I don't like them I get the option to boot them out of power every few years and have MY SAY in how I want in power. Democracy and basic Freedoms as said before are not perfect but they are better than none.

If you have never read anything by Orwell I strongly suggest you do.

Sorry this has gone way off topic.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 20, 2018, 05:57:37 am
Funny some of you guys are forgetting the words like "Native American Indian" .. or ... "Aborigin People", enough said.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on December 20, 2018, 06:01:50 am
We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
The Opium Wars was a dick move by the British empire ("the west" consists of different countries), and I can understand a strict policy against drugs. But the death penalty isn't effective at deterring crime and there is always the possibility of incorrect convictions. The government doesn't have to execute anyone, it has the power to take the moral high ground and not act as a murderer itself.

That was the time when China was "gang banged" by 8 nations, and then drugged using gov. backed & imported opium, pillaged & sucked dried for almost half century, until WWII started. Hence these unique entities so called HongKong, Macau, Taiwan exist for reasons.

And suddenly all of this so called developed, advanced and highly moralled nations starting to tell how China should behave accordingly , yeah, right.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 06:09:18 am
Funny some of you guys are forgetting the words like "Native American Indian" .. or ... "Aborigin People", enough said.

Not at all both have been mentioned in this thread. One of my best mates growing up was Koori and was one of the stolen people (apparently sleeping rough on the streets of Melbourne but no one is really sure  :( ). But Australian governments hypocrisy and piss poor behavior of the past is way off topic.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 20, 2018, 06:38:31 am
That was the time when China was "gang banged" by 8 nations, and then drugged using gov. backed & imported opium, pillaged & sucked dried for almost half century, until WWII started. Hence these unique entities so called HongKong, Macau, Taiwan exist for reasons.

And suddenly all of this so called developed, advanced and highly moralled nations starting to tell how China should behave accordingly , yeah, right.
First opium war was only the British empire, second they got backup from France and the US apparently (if Wikipedia is correct). What other 5 countries? If I understand it correctly, HongKong has been returned to China by the UK now. I understand that it makes Chinese people feel extra strong dislike of drugs and drug dealers, but I don't see why it's an argument for the death penalty, or why the dislike for human rights.

All countries in the world have been treated unjustly in their past, can't even count all the wars Sweden have had with Denmark, probably incited by the Hansa so that neither country could monopolise the sea way out of the Baltic sea. The Vikings used to travel around Europe to rape and plunder. The world is rotten enough without everyone holding grudges for historic injustices.

As we all know, the US also has the death penalty, as does Japan, Iran and Saudi Arabia to name a few. I just find it strange that China keeps using it, it gives its detractors an easy way of criticising them and there isn't really any benefit for the state/government. There isn't anything in the communist ideology that requires it as far as I can understand?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Tomorokoshi on December 20, 2018, 06:51:15 am
That was the time when China was "gang banged" by 8 nations, and then drugged using gov. backed & imported opium, pillaged & sucked dried for almost half century, until WWII started. Hence these unique entities so called HongKong, Macau, Taiwan exist for reasons.

And suddenly all of this so called developed, advanced and highly moralled nations starting to tell how China should behave accordingly , yeah, right.
First opium war was only the British empire, second they got backup from France and the US apparently (if Wikipedia is correct). What other 5 countries?

Those 8 countries were actually in a separate conflict, the Boxer Rebellion:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boxer_Rebellion

Not one of the actual Opium Wars:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opium_Wars

One thing to have in perspective when thinking about either Russian-style "Communism" or Chinese-style "Communism" is that both the Russian and Chinese revolutions replaced dynasties. The subtlety is that dynasties with hereditary lineage were replaced by... dynasties with political lineage. Communism was a good way to keep most of the populace distracted.

The plight of most peasants didn't change, and the relative upward mobility of those who could work within the system didn't change. Dynastic systems require large, segmented bureaucracies with multiple layers to keep any one bureaucrat from obtaining too much power. This allows for a controlled grooming and selection process for those who are allowed to approach the levers of actual political power.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BrianHG on December 20, 2018, 07:00:55 am
This thread has completely left the topic subject matter at hand...
It's going to get locked down...

Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 20, 2018, 07:31:54 am
This thread has completely left the topic subject matter at hand...
It's going to get locked down...

Some of it may be way off and some of it is mine but it shows perhaps the divide in cultures and ideas faced by the world when two bully's start blustering with the rest of us stuck in the middle. Discussing those differences is better than putting up a wall or dare I say Tariff barrier.

As to the topic I really don't see it making a real difference in practical terms to most countries in the world. China has product it makes and needs to sell. While a large part of the market the USA isn't 'the market' it may well be a win in the short term for other countries if China gets into an overstock position.

Longer term and without wanting to start a flame war Trump would have to be on shaky ground in the next Presidential election and I would hope the next one has at least a little less bluster and more brains to sort out whatever mess they may inherit. Worst case we have only six more years of him as US president - what could go wrong in that time.  :palm:
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on December 20, 2018, 11:35:22 am
Six years = four prime ministers
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 20, 2018, 12:42:19 pm
Blueskull, what percentage of convicted Chinese 'criminals' turn out to be innocent on appeal, say when they are exonerated by DNA evidence?

Many convicted in China are not based on any criminal lab examination...


The USA is not much better than their communist friends in China. In China, the communist state almost always wins in convictions, irreespective whether the defendent was innocent. But China is starting to clean up its draconian record on compensating the rare exoneree.

The USA has one of the most deplorable records in the world for convicting innocent people - especially blacks and Hispanics, usually due to corrupt cops, corrupt lawyers, plea bargaining, good 'old white boy racism, or the systemic guilty until proven innocent approach to convictions. The United States of America is completely DISUNITED when it comes to exoneree compensation. About half the states offer no compensation, no support, no job, no nothing to exonerees. A bloke who has spent 25 years in jail or with 10 years on death row for something he never did (often proven through DNA), has little or no prospects of ever getting a job due to widespread discrimination of anyone who has served time, even if they were known to be innocent. Its not only in lynch mob southern states. Chicago Police have framed hundreds of innocent black men and teenagers in recent years, the extent of which is coming out now. The State of New York's "finest" bashed Kalief Browder when they they sent him in Rikers Island prison without him even being charged for 2 years, and then drove the poor innocent teenager who was suffering extreme PTSD to commit suicide. No apology to the family, because that would be admitting guilt which means they could have to pay compensation to a poor family. And lets not forget the Central Park Five. The USA justice system has little to do with justice. Their legal system is not only broken, it is severely retarded.

Australia is not clean either - consider the murder of Colin-Campbell Ross. The pommies have their Birmingham Six, and the Jean-Charles de-Menezes cover-up. Probably all countries have their shameful past in the corruption of justice, but the USA and China would have to top the charts as being international pariahs on justice.

If this woman from Huawei is brought to trial in the USA, one way or the other she will be subject to this US justice system. Because she is loaded with cash, on balance she will receive a better outcome than someone who is poor. Consider the corrupt drug dealer money laundering bank, the HSBC. They got off with a slap on the wrist. But if a poor black man sells cigarettes illegally on the street corner..."I CAN'T BREATH! I CAN'T BREATH!"
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 12:44:11 pm
This is a very well written explanation by cult expert and sociologist Robert J. Lifton, - on cults, it looks at China in the 1960s but it is one of the definitive books on how all cults work.

https://archive.org/details/ThoughtReformAndThePsychologyOfTotalism/page/n3

Here in the US we are also now it seems ruled by a hidden cult.

Re privatized prisons- they basically are creating conditions where they are hoping poor people are tripped up. Then they can convert their misfortune into money.

It used to be almost entirely black people but its shifting to be poor people. And more and more people will be poor. Its a really bad situation we're being led into, one entirely of our own making. We all have to rise above the noise machine and see whats happening clearly.

We deserve better than this, everybody does. We're creating a monster thats hell bent on making everybody miserable, even its own acolytes are. Nobody is happy, everybody realizes something is broken.

The answer is simple, treat everybody with respect and try to share the gains of technology with all.


Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 20, 2018, 12:55:36 pm
The US is based on the free market system so companies have a right to sell everything and nothing is free. So it's arguably a crime to be poor. If you are committed of a crime you can be enslaved. (The 13th Amendment is about not enslaving people by race.) The US Constitution is under attack by right wingers who want to hold a Constitutional Convention to complete the corporate takeover of the country and provide cover for the hidden trade deals which are what is really ruling the world now. Both US 'parties' are right wing now, and have been for a long time. We currently still have in theory a right to the 'unenumerated rights' by default, but not for long if they get their way. What we're seeing is a second enclosure (like the Inclosure Acts in the UK that stole the land from its people for the aristocracy.) of the entire planet. Except its basically the planet and the rights to live and occupy space, breathe, without paying fees to/being stolen by huge transnational corporations. Led by several big power blocs, China is one, the US is another. Some small blocs are semi independent still but not for long.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 21, 2018, 10:05:38 am
This is a very well written explanation by cult expert and sociologist Robert J. Lifton, - on cults, it looks at China in the 1960s but it is one of the definitive books on how all cults work.

https://archive.org/details/ThoughtReformAndThePsychologyOfTotalism/page/n3

Thanks for the link. Even today most of the Chinese look on Chairman Mao favourably. In China, especially country areas, there are many portraits of Mao hanging on walls of homes. Most of them believe the lie fed to them by their CCP comrades: "Mao was 70% good, 30% bad", despite Mao being responsible for the deaths of 70 million people, creating civil war and plummeting the entire country into extreme poverty. The best thing Mao did for China was to die.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on December 21, 2018, 10:47:46 am
Interesting saw my first Huawei adds on Australian Free to air TV tonight. Charm offensive or counter offensive?  :-//

"Make it Possible" ....
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 21, 2018, 10:30:22 pm
I think what he actually said was something like "n% of all people are good" and the Mao crazed populace interpreted that in those bizarre times as meaning the rest (n) were bad. I will have to go digging for what he said that morphed into that because that period and the mass madness that occurred is really quite interesting - not just because of communism, because it seems to happen as a result of orthodoxy and anti-intellectual hysteria .

Another symptom are famines which are portrayed as non-intentional but clearly occur as a result of deliberate incompetence. There were actually five very similar famines, one was in the former Soviet Union in the Ukraine in the 1930s, one was in China in the late 1950s, one was in North Korea, in the late 1990s, and two were in the British Empire, one in Ireland in the 1840s and another in Bengal in India in the early 1940s. They all killed millions of people and had strong structural similarities. The fact that two of them occurred under extreme capitalism makes it clear to me that whatever malady that they occurred as a result of is not Communism per se, its something else , some lack of vision or particular spiteful aspect that both the UK of that era and the aforementioned three Communist countries shared.

This is a very well written explanation by cult expert and sociologist Robert J. Lifton, - on cults, it looks at China in the 1960s but it is one of the definitive books on how all cults work.

https://archive.org/details/ThoughtReformAndThePsychologyOfTotalism/page/n3 (https://archive.org/details/ThoughtReformAndThePsychologyOfTotalism/page/n3)

Thanks for the link. Even today most of the Chinese look on Chairman Mao favourably. In China, especially country areas, there are many portraits of Mao hanging on walls of homes. Most of them believe the lie fed to them by their CCP comrades: "Mao was 70% good, 30% bad", despite Mao being responsible for the deaths of 70 million people, creating civil war and plummeting the entire country into extreme poverty. The best thing Mao did for China was to die.

Also, by "Civil War" - China's civil war was the struggle between the Nationalists and Communists and if we ignore the conflict between the PRC and the Nationalists which to some extent persists to this day, as far as the mainland it mostly ended in 1949 when - (with the exception of some groups who fought on for some time in the Golden Triangle area) the conflict mostly ended in the Nationalist government fled to Taiwan.

Undoubtedly Maybe the PRC (and Soviet and DPRK) governments portray/portrayed their various 'struggles' against dissent as a civil war (this is definitely true even today in the DPRK with their 'songbun' caste system (https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.north-korea.narod.ru/control_lankov.htm)). but the fact is the opposition that existed (which they went to great lengths to root out and destroy, as totalitarian nations do) was as far as I can ascertain to the (arguably self-destructive) extremist policies and not to the governments.

Basically everybody who had an opinion of any kind, everybody who cared for their country, literally the best and the brightest in the country were attacked and many lost their lives or their lives were ruined.

I think that now the two remaining countries (even DPRK) may have internally (although quite tentatively at this time) realized that at least to some extent. But they cant admit it.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on December 22, 2018, 02:16:19 am
Even today most of the Chinese look on Chairman Mao favourably. In China, especially country areas, there are many portraits of Mao hanging on walls of homes. Most of them believe the lie fed to them by their CCP comrades: "Mao was 70% good, 30% bad", despite Mao being responsible for the deaths of 70 million people, creating civil war and plummeting the entire country into extreme poverty. The best thing Mao did for China was to die.
Well, kind of hard to compare but Bush's invation of Iraq has cost 0.5 million lives, many more mutilated and millions of refugees fleeing to neighbouring regions like Europe. And since it led to ISIS and terrorism we should probably add those casualties too (another 0.5 from the Syrian war) etc. Yet, not that many people seem all too concerned. And that was much more recent. People are strange.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cdev on December 22, 2018, 03:27:26 am
For a good chunk of our recent history the US was allied with Saddam Hussein BTW. Also, Irans nuclear program was started by the Shah of Iran. See attached document here (http://nsarchive2.gwu.edu/nukevault/ebb521-Irans-Nuclear-Program-1975-vs-2015/).

---
Re China. China became communist because of the US mistake in supporting the incredibly corrupt admittedly fascist Nationalist government which because of the US educated and articulate Madame Chiang Kai Shek got a sympathetic ear in Washington it didnt deserve - meanwhile most of the aid we sent them was getting siphoned off. They were almost as brutal as the Japanese.

The fall of the Qing Dynasty led to a three way power struggle between the Japanese who were most successful in northeastern part of China/Manchuria and an uncomfortable coalition between Nationalists and Communists and after the Japanese fell all out civil war, that civil war represented just the latest century of many millennia of nothing that could be called prosperity, and many incredibly hard times, and we need to realize that the inequality we complain about in Western nations is luxury compared to the extremes of Asia and Africa where life has been cheap, rulers incredibly corrupt, for a long long time. This is the situation that western countries made themselves wealthy by exploiting, forming alliances between the elites in those countries and themselves to divide the spoils that persist to this day.

I'm afraid that rapprochement between the US and North Korea could lead to some particularly bad alliances. We dont want to offshore our prisoners to North Korea, for example. But that could happen if they join the WTO. Comparative Advantage, look it up.

The stateless children (https://www.nytimes.com/2018/11/25/world/asia/north-korean-children-defectors.html) of terrified North Korean women in China have had it bad also.

We should look back in time to the so called Yalta Percentages Agreement, when the fate of Eastern Europe was sketched out ona cocktail napkin, the spirit of which led to the partitions of both Korea and Vietnam as well as Europe, and resolve never to do it again.

Also, Operation Keelhaul, resulted in the deaths of millions of refugees from Russia when they were 'repatriated' back to Stalin who killed them. A history which remains largely unknown. We cant do that with North Korea.

As we can see Asia and Africa remain a place of extremes in a world of extremism. The only way to fix that is just to do it, to lose the greed and just do it. We can afford to. We have to STFU and dump the greed.

The conditions many (the vast majority) of people lived (and in most cases still live under) was extreme bone-grinding poverty.

Read about colonialism in Africa under King Leopold of Belgium (http://en.lisapoyakama.org/the-hacked-hands-of-the-belgian-congo/) in Joseph Conrad's Heart of Darkness. In order to force Africans to work in the rubber trade they would enslave villages and if anybody resisted they were mercilessly slaughtered and their hands cut off to show that they had been killed. These hands were used as proof.

People in the US and Europe don't realize how hard the past has been - how hard many Asian and African and American countries had it under colonialism. And still do with Western countries (like the US) largely propping up the governments that are the most compliant in looting them. Thats the deal. Democracy is not what they want. Far from it. They want a compliant ruling class that helps them skim off the wealth and give back as little as possible. High returns on investments. Why invest domestically why educate when you can exploit? We're returning to that today. We force credit on them, but make sure it goes to the most corrupt compliant people. Anybody tries to start a union, we support repression. I'm being quite kind in my use of terms here. The real descriptive term is death related.  This has happened again and again. Basically they are looted by their rich and our rich.

Building up huge debts that countries cant ever repay.  When the people chafe under these debts, we send in the troops, or the CIA.

William Blum wrote a book, Killing Hope that enumerates the history of these US interventions. An old version of it is on the web. Its a must read. But, the most recent interventions arent covered.

In 1995 we shifted to a new method of hegemony, the IMF, WTO and World Bank.

In part it was because they want to continue the looting even under a so called rule of law.

Now expecting their repayment out of the taxpayers hard earned money, never from the globe-trotting aristocracy which loots them again and again. They want to trade away the middle classes jobs, robbing Peter to pay Paul. To keep the Global South oligarchs in power.

A modern standard of living is a fairly recent development in Asia. Oligarchs in the US and Europe unfortunately now want their countries to support them like their friends in India, China etc live.

They are tired of having a middle class. What can we look forward to?

Famines were not infrequent and killed huge numbers, often millions of people. Tropical countries are known for tropical diseases, many of those diseases, chronic diseases basically created lives of pain and illness. Now those diseases are diversifying geographically, northward and southward, while illnesses are being made profitable again.

Also grinding hunger, vulnerable to the variations in climate cause failure of crops and then large numbers of people died. Also many people made lots of money.

Under colonial Europe's influence, India and China would export and convert land to grow various cash crops, not always food people needed, (then they could import food and sell that making two profits) even as people starved by the millions.

Thats the real free market system. Seriously. Many people are still very poor. Even in cities. Example (https://allthatsinteresting.com/cage-homes-hong-kong).

Various forms of slavery are still common.

To understand how we got where we are today we must read some history.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: VK3DRB on December 24, 2018, 03:57:23 am
Well, kind of hard to compare but Bush's invation of Iraq has cost 0.5 million lives, many more mutilated and millions of refugees fleeing to neighbouring regions like Europe. And since it led to ISIS and terrorism we should probably add those casualties too (another 0.5 from the Syrian war) etc. Yet, not that many people seem all too concerned. And that was much more recent. People are strange.

You forgot the US government bombing the civilian hospital in Kunduz. It was definitely no accident. This barely got a whimper out of the American population - not even from so-called Christians. But if a hospital was bombed in the USA, all hell would break loose. Yes people are strange.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on January 07, 2019, 05:22:25 am
Huawei demoted two employees for tweeting from an iPhone

https://nationalpost.com/news/world/huawei-demoted-two-employees-for-tweeting-from-an-iphone-their-rival (https://nationalpost.com/news/world/huawei-demoted-two-employees-for-tweeting-from-an-iphone-their-rival)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: vk3yedotcom on January 23, 2019, 02:24:45 am
Huawei are not very nice people.

Their ads rip off material eg

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNDVdMWqVo&fbclid=IwAR3uGEfi8l4A8iyhEMmVRErTe9tqI-A66UfNlwMpPIl5BN0f6-k6gLcqi6Q (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNNDVdMWqVo&fbclid=IwAR3uGEfi8l4A8iyhEMmVRErTe9tqI-A66UfNlwMpPIl5BN0f6-k6gLcqi6Q)

vs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oItpVa9fs&fbclid=IwAR0G45BTBOmUZ-fYxs0--ikykyeUJkX61WvSZCvmh2UIsGHFHnsSsZEbG-8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3oItpVa9fs&fbclid=IwAR0G45BTBOmUZ-fYxs0--ikykyeUJkX61WvSZCvmh2UIsGHFHnsSsZEbG-8)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on March 07, 2019, 11:04:18 am
Well itis an interrsting exercise in free market democracy.  Kindof like american led attack on former Yugoslavia simply because the Yugoslav government did not want to do business with the west.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: jonovid on May 22, 2019, 07:36:04 am
spoiler alert!  it's the same old plot!
here we go , another US war in the name zionism.  looks like its Iran this time.
on top of a Chinese trade war
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: bd139 on May 22, 2019, 09:28:54 am
Nailed it. US foreign policy is about as opaque as a window.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: technix on May 22, 2019, 07:35:52 pm
spoiler alert!  it's the same old plot!
here we go , another US war in the name zionism.  looks like its Iran this time.
on top of a Chinese trade war
This gives China a huge opening in the trade war really. War burns money like no end, and US treasury might not have enough funds to maintain a war for that long.

Previously whenever US want to start a war US increases import from China first so people will increase purchasing. Chinese laws prohibits local trade from using any currency other than Renminbi, so all those dollars that ended up in Chinese hands have to be sent to Chinese banks to be exchanged for Renminbi. Then Chinese banks, including the central bank, buy US treasury bonds with those dollars Chinese businesses just handed over, so the dollars ended up in the hands of US governments so they can burn it to fuel the war.

Now the central bank of China have all kinds of ways to break this cycle and de-fund US war efforts, with all the dollar cash and US treasury bonds they hold. This can break hell on US economy when money is sourced from nowhere and drained into the war.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: apis on May 22, 2019, 09:56:59 pm
Now the central bank of China have all kinds of ways to break this cycle and de-fund US war efforts, with all the dollar cash and US treasury bonds they hold. This can break hell on US economy when money is sourced from nowhere and drained into the war.
China can keep lending money to the US but it only means something if they pay back the loan. They haven't always done so in the past. Just sayin'.

"In February 1965 [French] President Charles de Gaulle announced his intention to exchange its U.S. dollar reserves for gold at the official exchange rate." which eventually led to the Nixon shock: "The Nixon shock was a series of economic measures undertaken by United States President Richard Nixon in 1971, in response to increasing inflation, the most significant of which were wage and price freezes, surcharges on imports, and the unilateral cancellation of the direct international convertibility of the United States dollar to gold."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nixon_shock
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: beanflying on May 22, 2019, 10:48:30 pm
The Orange faced wannabe strongman needs his 'war' to try and get another term  :horse:

Add more troops and assets to the Iranian area and sure there is then an 'increased threat' to USA troops so add more troops to protect those and ..... This is almost certainly 'assisted' by Israeli/Zionist lobbying (not Jewish!) and not wanting anyone else in the area to also have the possibility of Nuclear weapons. And how dare anyone besides the USA support acts of instability, sabotage or terrorism in another country only the CIA has that 'power'. If that is the reason to go to a war footing most of the world should be on that footing with the USA permanently!

Trade wars and Tariff protections won't work to protect the USA and the actual public will be the ones paying for it with their purchases. More expensive equipment imported to make locally with more expensive imported raw ingredients will make the USA uncompetitive as an exporter of product let alone the retail sales hit to the average person buying imported goods.

Dumb on all levels.

Sorry woke up grumpy will now have a second Coffee  :)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 12:03:01 am
Just bought a Huawei Mate 20
Three month left before it starts becoming a brick   >:(
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: blueskull on May 23, 2019, 12:17:38 am
Just bought a Huawei Mate 20
Three month left before it starts becoming a brick   >:(

Didn't Google say Huawei phones released before the ban are still under Google's care?
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on May 23, 2019, 12:18:24 am
 In Canada Huawei is sponsoring Stanley Cup play-off translations with P30 and P30 Pro ads popping up several times during a game.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: IconicPCB on May 23, 2019, 12:56:35 am
Bean,

You remind the reader of the Sevendwarfs after Snow white left them.
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: EEVblog on May 23, 2019, 01:04:44 am
Just bought a Huawei Mate 20
Three month left before it starts becoming a brick   >:(
Didn't Google say Huawei phones released before the ban are still under Google's care?

Not that I'm aware of  :-//
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: Bud on October 26, 2019, 04:54:58 am
ARM will continue to supply Huawei

https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1X40YU-OCATC (https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1X40YU-OCATC)
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: BravoV on October 26, 2019, 06:36:35 am
ARM will continue to supply Huawei

https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1X40YU-OCATC (https://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN1X40YU-OCATC)

At the end, the word "capital" always win in capitalism.  >:D
Title: Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
Post by: cs.dk on October 26, 2019, 02:57:22 pm
Just bought a Huawei Mate 20
Three month left before it starts becoming a brick   >:(
Didn't Google say Huawei phones released before the ban are still under Google's care?

Not that I'm aware of  :-//

They are;

Quote
The US‌ trade ban has barred Huawei from bundling Google apps and services on its smartphones. Fortunately for older Huawei phones, they will continue to receive new Android OS updates with Google services as the trade restrictions don’t affect the devices launched before the ban. So users can expect Huawei to roll out the updates according to its original timeline, irrespective of the political situation that affects newer devices.