Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 18677 times)

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Offline edy

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Major news headline around the world of the arrest of Huawei CFO Meng Wanzhou, in Vancouver, Canada on behalf of US. Apparently Huawei is world's largest maker of phones, selling to markets around the world but I think blocked out of the US for alleged spyware backdoors. This follows also a crippling of ZTE, another smaller rival that was also blocked out of buying from US suppliers, in which Chinese President Xi had to intervene to get a reprieve so ZTE could continue functioning.

I am not sure exactly what any of this has to do with... patent issues, sanctions on Iran, trade war... It is all jumbled up and confusing and the stock market is already dropping like crazy so who knows what officials had inside knowledge and taking advantage of it in their portfolios (yet to be seen).

Nevertheless, how does that bode for the average consumer, hobbyist, electronics enthusiast who is relying on Chinese technologies and manufacturing? Does the USA have sole discretion to act according to it's own decisions and affect trade relations of China also with other countries. For example, I'm in Canada and Meng was arrested in Canada because of extradition treaties. China now will also turn a cold shoulder to Canada and any other US allies, and the impact will be unpredictable. Canadian companies doing business with China also could be retaliated against by US, and so it goes on and on.

Many US companies are manufacturing and assembling in China, including Apple. What effects will it have on those and others who are relying on Chinese production lines?
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 05:44:28 pm by edy »
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Offline Kleinstein

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 05:57:56 pm »
The arrest is supposed to be because of the US sanctions against Iran.
The problem here is that the US wants the sanctions for political reasons, but does not want to pay the full prize. So they want other counties to also not sell stuff to Iran, though these companies are not under US jurisdiction. I don't know the details here - especially if Huawei is also sending stuff out from the US, or has offices in the US.

So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Imagine a Arab country enforcing there trade sanctions against Israel also for US managers traveling to Europe.  :popcorn: 
 

Offline edy

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2018, 06:05:16 pm »
So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Yes that is my concern as well, but Canada will often cave to US demands as they are not coming from a strong position. Which means that this could affect trade relations between Canada-China and visiting of Chinese technology firms here also, for fear of being arrested too. May also affect ability of Canadian companies to buy technology for China, and so on.  :scared:  Perhaps this is just a political stunt to turn the thumbscrews on President Xi at the negotiating table, but we'll have to wait and see the repercussions.  :popcorn:
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Online BravoV

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2018, 06:10:19 pm »
Interesting time to watch the reality show at global level by Trump.  >:D

Online TheSteve

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2018, 06:23:18 pm »
Huawei is not sold in the US. In Canada they sell phones and cell base station infrastructure.
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Offline floobydust

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2018, 06:26:21 pm »
Most of us know world domination is the chinese agenda, so of course there's consequences.

Even 10 years ago I couldn't design in Huawei due to backdoors the US Government alleged.
WiFi and Ethernet routers with chinese chipsets are also on the list as a security concern.

What is Canada's stance on chinese telecom and national security?
This whole thing is also pressure for Canada to take a stance instead of being nicey-nice at the cost of the nation. The politics here is interesting. To kiss chinese ass and not extradite? Or have some balls and take a position on the issue. Or to kiss American ass?


 

Offline edy

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2018, 06:28:22 pm »
This article seems to give us some reasoning behind it:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2017-12-28/us-sanctions-keep-western-businesses-out-iran-china-seizes-opportunity

There are the UN sanctions and then there are the US sanctions... which the US tries to impose through various means on other countries to abide by... in this case, they are putting pressure on ZTE, Huawei and other Chinese firms that also do business in Iran. As far as I know, there are no UN sanctions on selling Chinese electronics and smart phones to Iran, are there? Could it be that any possible US patented technology/component found inside a Chinese device is prohibited from entering Iran by US? China is filling the void the West is leaving behind in Iran, primarily due to pressure by US for everyone to follow the "extended" set of US sanctions... and they have no choice unless to face retribution by US in various forms (like may be happening now against China).

As to what Canada is to do in the current situation, it is going to be interesting to watch. I don't doubt for a minute they will side with USA but hopefully for the correct reasons. But our leaders these days are predictably unpredictable. I think there was an old Chinese curse that went something like.... "may you live in interesting times".

Another news article on it...
https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-12-06/top-huawei-executive-has-been-arrested-us-request-clouding-china-trade-truce
« Last Edit: December 06, 2018, 06:40:09 pm by edy »
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Online edpalmer42

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 06:50:02 pm »
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.  Which means that US sanctions are meaningless, only UN sanctions that Canada has adopted are significant.

The process itself if a combination of government/political decisions and a judicial process.  If the judge says 'no' to extradition, then 'no' it is - regardless of what the politicians want.

https://toronto.citynews.ca/2018/12/06/a-look-at-the-process-canada-follows-in-response-to-an-extradition-request/

Just to be clear, IANAL.
 

Offline chris_leyson

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2018, 06:59:58 pm »
Somewhat off topic but I read today that British Telecom are removing Huawei equipment from their 3G and 4G networks and will not accept any bids from Huawei for 5G contracts over security concerns. The British government are still sitting on the fence regarding Huawei and 5G, they haven't said NO, well not yet anyway.
 

Offline IanB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2018, 07:15:22 pm »
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.
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Offline Ice-Tea

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2018, 07:21:08 pm »
Could it be that any possible US patented technology/component found inside a Chinese device is prohibited from entering Iran by US?

That's exactly what it is AFAIK: a US vendor (Qualcom SOCs, Intel modems, ...) sells stuff to Chinese manufacturers but in order to be allowed to do that, the recipient has to sign of on a document that prohibits them from selling to countries that are sanctioned by the US.
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Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2018, 07:36:08 pm »
"she" is the daughter of founder of the company arrested in the immediate time frame post weekend''s agreement between China and USA on reduction of tariffs.
How rude
 

Online edpalmer42

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #12 on: December 06, 2018, 08:40:07 pm »
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

Straight from the Canadian Department of Justice.  No idea what happens in other countries.
Quote
In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html



 

Online coppice

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2018, 08:47:22 pm »
Somewhat off topic but I read today that British Telecom are removing Huawei equipment from their 3G and 4G networks and will not accept any bids from Huawei for 5G contracts over security concerns. The British government are still sitting on the fence regarding Huawei and 5G, they haven't said NO, well not yet anyway.
The problem when you have abandoned making this kind of thing in your own country is you only have choices you really shouldn't trust.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2018, 09:28:57 pm »
Or trust Ericsson.

And half of the country falls flat on its arse as happened here in the UK today.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #15 on: December 06, 2018, 09:32:52 pm »
actual corporate response:

 a speech with the phrase 'a few bad apples....' in it.
 

Offline richnormand

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #16 on: December 06, 2018, 09:45:42 pm »
Also interesting, as reported in some news feeds, is that she is the one that requested a publication ban on this case.....

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46462858


 

Offline shteii01

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #17 on: December 06, 2018, 10:38:35 pm »
Huawei is not sold in the US. In Canada they sell phones and cell base station infrastructure.
I can buy their stuff in US from Newegg: https://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&DEPA=0&Order=BESTMATCH&Description=Huawei&N=-1&isNodeId=1
 

Online vk6zgo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #18 on: December 06, 2018, 11:26:35 pm »
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

Straight from the Canadian Department of Justice.  No idea what happens in other countries.
Quote
In all cases, the conduct for which extradition is sought must be considered criminal in both the requesting country and in Canada. This is known as “dual criminality”.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/cj-jp/emla-eej/tocan-aucan.html
Pretty much the same in Oz.

An extradition hearing is held before a judge to determine the legality of the request.
Obviously this becomes necessary because some countries have crimes on the books which are ridiculous to a modern society, like "sacrilege", " Lese' majeste", & various types of sexual behaviour or orientation
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2018, 12:29:00 am »
The arrest is supposed to be because of the US sanctions against Iran.
The problem here is that the US wants the sanctions for political reasons, but does not want to pay the full prize. So they want other counties to also not sell stuff to Iran, though these companies are not under US jurisdiction. I don't know the details here - especially if Huawei is also sending stuff out from the US, or has offices in the US.

So the logical solution for Canada would be if the court in Canada dismisses the case, if US law is not applicable. This might upset the big Donald however.

Imagine a Arab country enforcing there trade sanctions against Israel also for US managers traveling to Europe.  :popcorn:


It's my understanding that Huawei was selling US made goods to Iran in contravention of the restrictions.  Ignoring for the moment the legitimacy of the US sanctions if Huawei sold US goods to Iran against the sanctions that's a problem and they will be held accountable.  Now, as far as the sanctions are concerned the US is playing games here but then again so is Iran.  In the immortal words of Rodnet King ... "Can't we all just get along".  Sadly, getting along is not in the cards these days...


Brian
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2018, 03:08:02 am »
it will be interesting to see how this plays out.  The only way she could be extradited is if her alleged crime constituted a crime in Canada.

I think this is not how most extradition treaties are written. Someone can be extradited from country C to country A if country A asserts said person has committed a crime and can be charged under the laws of country A. Even if that is not a crime in country C. And even if said person has never set foot in country A.

This is true, however, not having much details of the arrest available yet, my hope is that this arrest is an NPT ([Nuclear] Non-Proliferation Treaty) triggered UN Sanction - which will oblige all NPT nations to enforce the sanction as well.  China is a funny case with NPT.  At the time of the signing, Taiwan (ROC-Republic of China) was in the UN.  When China (People's Republic of China) replaced ROC in the UN, it is unclear to me as to whether China "inherited" ROC's obligations.  I hope it does, and I hope this is an NPT-triggered sanction arrest - and case adjudicated accordingly.

If an NPT nation can enjoying the benefits of NPT while doing nuclear development anyway, that makes the whole NPT a joke.  This would open the flood gates for any other NPT to do the same making the whole NPT meaningless.

NPT is the UN treaty with the most signatories (198) and has been successful in controlling nuclear growth.  If it becomes meaningless, nuclear weapons will grow like mushrooms.  I would like to see this thin-thread tying down this pandora's box remains to keep the box secure.  Plenty of nations with the dollars and ambition to buy/develop a bomb for themselves.  We don't need another few dozen countries with a nuclear arsenal.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2018, 03:23:47 am »
China now will also turn a cold shoulder to Canada and any other US allies, and the impact will be unpredictable.

Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2018, 03:31:20 am »
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.
Isolationism has always proven to be success and certainly not a sure-fire way of having the whole world overtake you.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2018, 03:33:18 am »
i do wonder however how much home improvement got done because of harbor freight in the last 10 years or so.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2018, 03:52:18 am »
The rumors circulate in China is that Huawei has something to do with the death of a Chinese-American scientist innovated some pretty sick nano material. What's more is the particular scientist also runs an angel funding company in China that may have incubated some smaller companies that may touch Huawei's interest.
 


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