Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 19304 times)

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Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #25 on: December 07, 2018, 04:00:18 am »
When China (People's Republic of China) replaced ROC in the UN, it is unclear to me as to whether China "inherited" ROC's obligations.  I hope it does, and I hope this is an NPT-triggered sanction arrest - and case adjudicated accordingly.

If an NPT nation can enjoying the benefits of NPT while doing nuclear development anyway, that makes the whole NPT a joke.  This would open the flood gates for any other NPT to do the same making the whole NPT meaningless.

The PRC is an NPT country since 1988.

There's no concrete evidence that China is physically developing new nukes, but China is indeed using computer simulation to improve nukes, which is what triggered USA's ban on Intel Xeon E5/E7/Phi products to China if the recipient company is a state owned one.

To be fair, US is doing the same thing. US is/was experimenting (using simulation) with EBW detonators instead of primary explosives to make safer, longer-shelf life nukes.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #26 on: December 07, 2018, 05:48:49 am »
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.
 
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #27 on: December 07, 2018, 06:17:24 am »
cyberpunk communist 2.0 capital of the world. neuromancer meets animal farm
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #28 on: December 07, 2018, 06:19:37 am »
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.

you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.

i am pretty sure I received a document that was intentionally photocopied a whole bunch of times over to make a certain table hard to read and mistake (1 number off from being something you might consider quality).

if you read it wrong you think, wow these guys did their homework found out all the little nuances and tried to make a good product (looked like weird good custom stuff).

if you decipher it correctly you think wow their trying to sell us shit they built with stuff pulled out of the trash
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 06:23:44 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #29 on: December 07, 2018, 06:23:13 am »
basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.

Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2018, 06:23:46 am »
you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.
Bullshit. You get what you pay for and apparently most want to pay very little. If you choose to do business with the cheapest, sketchiest outfit you can find you'll invariably get the results you mention.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2018, 06:24:33 am »
yea but my investigatory reports had more credibility because you can read the charts properly
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2018, 06:24:49 am »
Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
Or use basic interpunction, capitals or nuance.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2018, 06:25:55 am »
you don't really get a spec from china, more like some shit they photocopied 16 times so you can bearly read it and find out its probably falsified after your 5th email attempt with someone you were doing business with for 4 years already. basically you need to approach them with a much higher level of annoying check the facts mac paranoia then you would most other vendors.
Bullshit. You get what you pay for and apparently most want to pay very little. If you choose to do business with the cheapest, sketchiest outfit you can find you'll invariably get the results you mention.

no way... we were at the point that someone was going to be sent to actually verify if they have a production line at all based on the crap we were getting. sounded too good to be true and I never found the end of it, perhaps to my benefit. I am kinda glad I got away from that shit.

based on what we were getting, it appeared they might not have had the equipment they claimed they owned.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 06:28:19 am by coppercone2 »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2018, 06:30:33 am »
Your words have better credibility if you can spell "than" correctly.
Or use basic interpunction, capitals or nuance.

i make wheel
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2018, 06:33:35 am »
no way... we were at the point that someone was going to be sent to actually verify if they have a production line at all based on the crap we were getting. sounded too good to be true and I never found the end of it, perhaps to my benefit. I am kinda glad I got away from that shit.

based on what we were getting, it appeared they might nave had the equipment they claimed they owned.
That sounds like a fair bit of inexperience with having things manufactured overseas, to be honest. It's customary to visit China to inspect the factory and capabilities, or have an intermediary do this for you. It's also wise to have someone well aware of Chinese culture and business practices on the ground to help you with the process. Only heading out to check out things well into the process suggests inexperience. If you just wave some money at random people from a distance, they're likely to be glad to take it off you.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2018, 06:37:44 am »
having to visit to make sure the #1 seller of a well known product that advertises a crazy high end process on their website with no pride and extremely shady documentation is pretty bad if thats the best in the nation, are you supposed to bring protection against kidnapping when you visit #4?

not really my problem anymore though  ^-^


your not far off though, i called it cyber punk for a reason, its like doing business outside of a bar in a dark street with someone that has spiky pink hair and a leather jacket. maybe a little red book too... but as an engineer i don't want to get involved in that side of things. hire a detective.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2018, 06:42:02 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline vk6zgo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2018, 06:54:16 am »
Quote
Can't wait for that to happen. I am sick of all the chinese garbage that flooded Canada. The world was a better place before china madness.

I am sure China to is sick and tired of being blamed for Western business men's and women's decisions to order goods of inferior quality and sell it to domestic markets and then "blame" the manufacturer for poor specs.

I'm glad you pointed out that it was the decision of business people.
The usual rejoinder is "If the public don't want cheap crap, they wouldn't buy it".

In reality, we don't get to make that choice, as even the upmarket brands which are high priced by any standards are also made in China, to similar, & sometimes even inferior standards to the cheapest unknown brands.

After going through several name brands of electric kettle which were obviously designed to look pretty, rather than work properly ( they leaked like sieves), we are now using an "el Cheapo" unit which is properly designed & made.

That said, when I worked at a place where we had five  transmitters made (to what seemed to be, a reasonable spec ) in the PRC, I guess we didn't have the excuse of it being someone else's decision.
(I can honestly say that personally, because the order was sent before I started there).

On arrival, one "sort of" worked, but not a "peep" out of the others.
We sent them back ----Profuse apologies by our contact person at the company (a really nice bloke, who really didn't have a clue what was happening).

After another month or so, they came back
This time, one worked pretty much as it should have, three "sort of", & one not at all.

We decided to try to fix them ourselves, which we did, with very little assistance from the manufacturer.

Every time we spoke to them, they had some reason to fob us off, from national holidays to component shortages, to just plain denying we asked them to do something.

After trying to have technical conversations with them, we came to the conclusion that the guys who designed the transmitters were from "rent an EE", probably recent graduates with little or no knowledge of RF equipment other than what they could find on the Internet.
Once the job was done, they were let go, disappearing into the cloud of young EEs buzzing around in that
country.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2018, 08:23:52 am »
Coppercone,
I was referring to the specification the buyer for the importer for the distributor for the retailer purchases against a spec.
The buyer's spec not manufacturer's spec irrespective of who actually writes the spec since the purchase order lists attributes of purchased goods.

It is usually businessmen who do the deals and consumers don't have much of an option. aka Walmart syndrome.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #39 on: December 09, 2018, 03:33:55 am »
...
After going through several name brands of electric kettle which were obviously designed to look pretty, rather than work properly ( they leaked like sieves), we are now using an "el Cheapo" unit which is properly designed & made.
...

This problem really drives me nuts also.  The trouble isn't so much as cheap stuff sold as cheap stuff, but it is hard to find things that isn't cheaply made even if you are willing to pay the price.

I am totally at a lost as to where to buy reasonable quality stuff - you know, like the stuff you could find before Walmart existed.  It seems now different stores are selling different brands at different price points but all made in the same cheap factory somewhere in the land of no-quality.
 
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2018, 03:47:22 am »
It appears that China is now threatening Canada to release her or else.  The bluster is reminiscent to the similar threat made by Russia to the USA when we arrested Maria Butina.  It appears the threat is predicated on a similar premise -- to get the person out of the country before they can be questioned or prosecuted.  My guess is there's more to this story than we've heard so far.


Brian
 

Online Marco

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2018, 04:59:13 am »
It's bad enough the US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions ... for Canada to cooperate with that is elevating the value of US laws to ridiculous level, Trump is truly emperor of the western world I guess.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:04:23 am by Marco »
 

Offline edy

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2018, 05:04:59 am »
Now Canada stuck in the middle of this diplomatic sh!tstorm....

"China warns Canada of 'consequences' if it fails to release Huawei CFO"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/

The first line of the article... "China warned Canada on Saturday that there would be severe consequences if it did not immediately release Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's chief financial officer, calling the case 'extremely nasty'."   Apparently she faces charges of conspiracy to defraud multiple financial institutions, with a maximum sentence of 30 years for each charge!

So now because of this situation Canada is being sucked into this mess, and torn between China and US. What a disaster... will be very interesting to follow what happens, this could have major repercussions not only to trade. Sounds like Canada is screwed no matter what it does!
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:11:53 am by edy »
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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2018, 05:09:10 am »
The US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions? And Canada is cooperating with that bullshit?


Yeah, it would be bullshit if anyone working for the company is vulnerable to prosecution, but since that isn't the case and she's being accused of active participation that would substantially change your argument.  We can argue whether or not the US sanctions are appropriate, but when a company knowingly sells US made goods in contravention to the sanctions you best not find yourself in a country that is likely to extradite you to the US for prosecution.  If she had participated in selling Chinese goods we wouldn't be talking about this.  In essence, the dealing of said materials is kind of like selling weapons on the black market -- Iran wanted it and likely paid more than retail for it.


Brian
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2018, 05:13:20 am »
Now Canada stuck in the middle of this diplomatic sh!tstorm....

"China warns Canada of 'consequences' if it fails to release Huawei CFO"

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/world/article-china-warns-canada-of-consequences-if-it-fails-to-release-huawei-cfo/

The first line of the article... "China warned Canada on Saturday that there would be severe consequences if it did not immediately release Huawei Technologies Co Ltd's chief financial officer, calling the case 'extremely nasty'."   Apparently she faces charges of conspiracy to defraud multiple financial institutions, with a maximum sentence of 30 years for each charge!

So now because of this situation Canada is being sucked into this mess, and torn between China and US. What a disaster... will be very interesting to follow what happens, this could have major repercussions not only to trade.


Yes, I mentioned this a few posts ago and the aggressiveness of the Chinese is reminiscent of the Russian effort to get Maria Butina out of the USA -- they made ominous threats but she's still in jail in the USA.  In fact, the very fact that the Chinese are being as aggressive leads me to believe there's more to this story then we've thus far be made aware of.  My guess is there's systematic sanctions violations taking place and China doesn't want that to be exposed.  Similarly, the US may see this as an opportunity to do just that -- expose it.


Brian
 

Online Marco

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2018, 05:20:16 am »
best not find yourself in a country that is likely to extradite you to the US for prosecution.

Which under Trump is apparently almost any non Russia/China aligned nation for any law the US wants to put on the book. With that level of isolation we are driving China and Russia into each other's arms, time for cold war 2.0.
 

Online Sredni

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2018, 05:29:38 am »
Can someone enlighten me on the security risks of using Huawei gear for critical infrastructure?

From what I've read, I understand that if the military in China wanted Huawei to put dead rats in their hardware or software, they would have no choice but to comply. My question is: how hard is for the recipient of said hardware (and software) to find any dead rats?

Is it practically unfeasible due to the complexity of the systems (decapping and scrutinizing all chips to find suprises) and frequency of updates (reading all software in detail at every patch)? Closed source firmware and the such? Sheer quantity of code?
Or is there some other more cogent reason that escapes me?

I mean, it seems reasonable to get the pieces of any critical infrastructures from countries that are your military allies, so that they are the ones spying on you (Echelon, if I am not mistaken came out of the Five Eyes countries: USA UK NZ AU and CA), so that you can spare the effort of scrutinizing everything...

Shouldn't all critical infrastructure be open source, from the firmware up?
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Offline Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2018, 05:30:01 am »
What a great opportunity for Canada to cut chinese ties. Cant wait for it.  :-+
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Online Marco

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2018, 05:42:30 am »
Can someone enlighten me on the security risks of using Huawei gear for critical infrastructure?

From what I've read, I understand that if the military in China wanted Huawei to put dead rats in their hardware or software, they would have no choice but to comply. My question is: how hard is for the recipient of said hardware (and software) to find any dead rats?

If you put in a plausibly deniable backdoor in the form of a remote exploit which lets you inject code and then exfiltrate data through some low bandwidth timing based side channels it's almost impossible to detect. Neither the backdoor, nor the exfiltration. That said we have a saying here, roughly translating to "as the host is he trusts his guests". If the US is getting paranoid about it, I'm sure they are doing it :)

PS. it still takes a big conspiracy to put such things in place and information about such things can easily leak ... and proof of Huawei backdooring their hardware would have crippled their business, although in the end vague assertions is all it took.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 05:48:14 am by Marco »
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2018, 06:31:27 am »
What a great opportunity for Canada to cut chinese ties. Cant wait for it.  :-+

It's a better opportunity to give Trump the middle finger for dragging your country into another international mess.

You are being made a party to 'poor us' the big bad evil empire of X has imposed tariff barriers over our exports. This is pathetic as one of the largest imposers (outside of maybe the EU) of Tariffs is the US on other countries including yours and ours. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership The last in a long line of BS US walkouts.

Australia as a 'special best friend' of the US sees us tarred with all the negatives internationally and very very few positives.
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