Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 18648 times)

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Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2018, 08:12:49 am »
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

And again, the fact that China is playing hardball, or trying to, certainly raises the spectre that this is not a single transaction.  Canada is not going to be invaded by China for lawfully holding someone charged with a crime.


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Online beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2018, 08:53:00 am »
So if say company X from country Y brought ANY US component or item added it to their own and on sold it to Iran, North Korea etc then the US will 'uni laterally' decide to take action against whoever they like?

Currently the UN is reducing and removing sanctions against Iran https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Security_Council_Resolution_2231 but the US has 'decided' they are in breach.

Trump needs the political strongman points so lets keep it up after all the next election is under 2 years away and he needs to hide his own current local 'real' issues .....   :--
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 08:56:20 am by beanflying »
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Online Kleinstein

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2018, 09:57:39 am »
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

And again, the fact that China is playing hardball, or trying to, certainly raises the spectre that this is not a single transaction.  Canada is not going to be invaded by China for lawfully holding someone charged with a crime.

Brian

It depends on the conditions / treaties how the US good were sold to the Chinese. If Intel sold there chips with just normal orders and paperwork, the buyer is free to sell them like he wants - US laws would no longer apply. If at all the US might go after the US company (e.g. Intel) who exported those items without proper permissions  / treaties that oblige the buyer no to sell those parts to some countries. Even than it can be tricky on which law applies to those papers and what are the consequences.

US companies are quite ignorant in claiming that US law should apply to license agreements - though in many cases that means they get the lesser of the US and foreign law if outside the US.

The US are kind of fast in calling for trade sanctions, but are not really willing to pay the price, which are trade disadvantages for there companies.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2018, 11:10:49 am »
Some of the laws US imposes are downright stpid.

I order goods from Mouser say...they ask me to sign of on a non resale to certain proscribed countries.
They even insist on knowing the application into whihc the part will be inbuilt.

Almost enforced industrial espionage,.

I purchase the same part locally ...I can do with it  what ever i want to no questions ask.

 
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Offline Marco

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2018, 02:24:58 pm »
Hey, I'm no fan of Trump and the justification for reimposition of sanctions is also suspect, but the charge is that a Chinese firm sold US goods to Iran in spite of those sanctions.  China was within there right to sell Chinese goods to Iran but not US goods.  This isn't hard people.

From the point of few of might makes right it's easy. Fom the point of view that first sale doctrine is the morally correct way to trade it's also easy. From the point of view of contract law it completely depends on the treaties China is party to and which contracts Huawei signed. Even then, breach of contract is hardly something I would expect any civilized nation to perform arrest and extradition for.
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2018, 08:29:47 pm »
It's bad enough the US makes it a personal liability crime for a foreign national to be part of a company breaking US sanctions ... for Canada to cooperate with that is elevating the value of US laws to ridiculous level, Trump is truly emperor of the western world I guess.
I'm not a lawyer, but I have work in publicly owned company near "fat city" (ie: executive suite) a bit here and there...

It is pretty typical in the western world that officers of the company are legally responsible for the action of the company - hence they are officers of the company.  It may seem odd at first, but if you think about Bhopal (India) disaster where over 3700 died by actions of a company, you would agree the responsible officers of the company should have some responsibility if the actions were careless or illegal.

Typically for a publicly owned company in the USA, officers are corporate VP level minimum - divisional/subsidiary entities' VP would be liable only to the extend of that division/subsidiary.  In some instances, it extends down to lower level depending on specific role.  For example, you are a grunt working on a buy-out/merger... (you guys are smart here, I don't need to go into the details of how/why there would be legal constrains for one with advance knowledge about pending buy-out/merger).

In the case of CFO/CEO regarding financial statements, after one of the collapses, a new law to more clearly spell out the responsibilities was passed.    [I don't recollect when the law was passed, could have been Enron, or could have been the 2008 collapse].

Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

[Edit:] added the paragraph about Bhopal disaster that was missed when I first clicked save.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 08:45:27 pm by Rick Law »
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2018, 09:59:23 pm »
And, once again, the very fact that China is playing hardball here should be ringing bells.  I mean, if a Chinese national is arrested for some crime it might be reasonable for China to request justification and perhaps, if they feel its unwarranted, log a protest, but for them to jump the shark and threatened both the US and Canada is ringing that bell all the louder.

Apparently the investigations began back in 2016, before Trump was president, so the types of violations would seem to have been before the Trump admin reinstated sanctions again.  There are nations that are on a prohibited list for a range of products and that goes beyond the sanctions related to there nuclear program.  Back in the 80's Toshiba and the Swedish company Konigsborg (sp?) were prosecuted for providing the then USSR machine tools capable of making more silent Submarine propulsion screws (props). 

So, the aggressiveness that China is engaging in has my bullshit detector going off and I think we're going to learn more before long -- and that is why China wants her back home.


Brian
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2018, 04:20:02 pm »
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2018, 05:15:18 pm »
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2018, 05:17:52 pm »
china has no problems putting American citizens in jail because of their political actions. I think there was a high profile tourist couple with dual citizenship put in jail recently.
 

Offline coppice

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #60 on: December 10, 2018, 05:28:04 pm »
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.
If HuaWei exported products containing US technology, in contravention of the conditions under which they obtained that technology, the only jurisdiction issue the US has is whether they can get their hands on the perpetrator. Any US devices not classified as EAR99 come with strings attached. On more than one occasion senior people from HuaWei have been to the Sstate Department in Washington to personally petition for certain advanced devices to be supplied to them, promising to only use them for purposes approved by the State Department.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #61 on: December 10, 2018, 06:01:17 pm »
china has no problems putting American citizens in jail because of their political actions. I think there was a high profile tourist couple with dual citizenship put in jail recently.

China demands absolute loyalty from it's  citizens, thus China doesn't allow dual citizenship. The moment you walk into Chinese border with two passports, one being Chinese passport, you are already asking for troubles.
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #62 on: December 10, 2018, 06:52:22 pm »
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #63 on: December 10, 2018, 06:57:02 pm »
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
"I.... hate manuuuure!"
 

Offline Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2018, 06:59:54 pm »
What i read in a local newspaper it is not about Huawei but a supplier company which the chinese say is a separate entity, but the americans consider it the same Huawei, pointing it is managed and operated by same people, even at employee level. Do not know, fake news are everywhere so taking it with a grain of salt.
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Offline Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2018, 07:05:58 pm »
their like Biff in back to the future. What do you expect?
You mean they always end up in bull's shit?
"I.... hate manuuuure!"

....  brought to you by D. Jones, Manure Hauling
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Offline Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2018, 07:12:51 pm »
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
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Offline Wan Huang Luo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #67 on: December 10, 2018, 07:18:12 pm »
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
Natch, China up until now loved everything about Canada and many Chinese aspired to own second residences in Canada.
Things now a little more complicated, but I imagine that everything will blow over unless the brinkmen win and make this into a diplomatic menage a trois between the US, Canada and China.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #68 on: December 10, 2018, 07:36:38 pm »
And by the way, the arrested CFO  owns two houses in Vancouver, Canada. Did not feel safe home in China?
How many houses does she have in China?
 

Offline raptor1956

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #69 on: December 10, 2018, 08:47:30 pm »
What i read in a local newspaper it is not about Huawei but a supplier company which the chinese say is a separate entity, but the americans consider it the same Huawei, pointing it is managed and operated by same people, even at employee level. Do not know, fake news are everywhere so taking it with a grain of salt.

Standard practice is to use cutouts to limit prosecution in case they get discovered.  The use of cutouts doesn't actually avoid the crime though it does muddy the waters as to who to go after.

In organized crime prosecution the ring leaders often use underlings (cutouts) to avoid getting there hands dirty, but they can still be prosecuted if they have the evidence that there was coordination from the leadership.


Brian
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #70 on: December 10, 2018, 09:42:38 pm »
Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China.
By your logic, China should put everyone in jail, if they ever participated any anti-communism acts or any other movements against Chinese government, even abroad.
By that definition, half Chinese-Americans living in China should go to jail.

So far, I am sure that the law she allegedly broke is Iran trade related but I am not sure which one.  I would like to be able to narrow down to the U.S.C. numbers from official sources to be able to discuss the issue on firm grounds.  Thus far, most news description is merely "violating US Iran Sanction..." or similar which is no help.

But you did raised an interesting point in your reply: "If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China."

The point you raised is the reason I hope whichever law(s) she allegedly broke is one of those laws that re-affirms UN sanction originated from NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).  Re-affirm as in "if you break this UN sanction, it is breaking US law".  (I believe) An NPT driven UN sanction should have wide international support since NPT is the most-signed UN treaty.  That would be least disruptive to international trade.  If the law in question is one of those "domestic" US laws but Huawei is constrained by applicable US laws because they have an operation in the USA...  While I can see the rationale behind that, but I think that link would be too tenuous.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #71 on: December 10, 2018, 10:46:28 pm »

It is pretty typical in the western world that officers of the company are legally responsible for the action of the company - hence they are officers of the company.  It may seem odd at first, but if you think about Bhopal (India) disaster where over 3700 died by actions of a company, you would agree the responsible officers of the company should have some responsibility if the actions were careless or illegal.

Typically for a publicly owned company in the USA, officers are corporate VP level minimum - divisional/subsidiary entities' VP would be liable only to the extend of that division/subsidiary.  In some instances, it extends down to lower level depending on specific role.  For example, you are a grunt working on a buy-out/merger... (you guys are smart here, I don't need to go into the details of how/why there would be legal constrains for one with advance knowledge about pending buy-out/merger).

In the case of CFO/CEO regarding financial statements, after one of the collapses, a new law to more clearly spell out the responsibilities was passed.    [I don't recollect when the law was passed, could have been Enron, or could have been the 2008 collapse].

Yeah, she is the CFO, so if indeed laws were broken, she could be held liable.  It is as yet unclear what exact law she broke because I am reading different things on different news outlets.

[Edit:] added the paragraph about Bhopal disaster that was missed when I first clicked save.

I think that statements from official sounding people in the years after the Bhopal disaster that the now defunct company took responsibility are likely to have been a hoax. 

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhopal_disaster
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Online beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #72 on: December 11, 2018, 12:37:53 am »

So far, I am sure that the law she allegedly broke is Iran trade related but I am not sure which one.  I would like to be able to narrow down to the U.S.C. numbers from official sources to be able to discuss the issue on firm grounds.  Thus far, most news description is merely "violating US Iran Sanction..." or similar which is no help.

But you did raised an interesting point in your reply: "If she indeed violated some export laws, most likely she did it in China. US has no jurisdiction in things happening in China."

The point you raised is the reason I hope whichever law(s) she allegedly broke is one of those laws that re-affirms UN sanction originated from NPT (Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty).  Re-affirm as in "if you break this UN sanction, it is breaking US law".  (I believe) An NPT driven UN sanction should have wide international support since NPT is the most-signed UN treaty.  That would be least disruptive to international trade.  If the law in question is one of those "domestic" US laws but Huawei is constrained by applicable US laws because they have an operation in the USA...  While I can see the rationale behind that, but I think that link would be too tenuous.

I thought that was what the ICC was for the UN legal system?

Other than being a member of the UN the USA doesn't have jurisdiction other than the Uni Lateral action it takes all to often I suspect. Rubbery charges to an 'alleged' crime of the UN sanctions for extradition to another 'Country' and not to the ICC spells BS and Bluster if they keep pushing UN sanctions.

If she and Huawei are being charged with breaching US laws on exports of goods indirectly headed for Iran then they need to prove it with a fully traceable paper trail of all parts or items. Good luck with 'demanding' Huawei release its Chinese documents to the USA.

If the USA is going to use a really rubbery link in that Huawei has Businesses in the USA and another corporate entity exported 'product' (not necessarily of USA origin or even exported from the USA) so your 'company' is guilty of breaking USA sanctions on imports to Iran banning export of anything to Iran. This is so thin it will break.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #73 on: December 11, 2018, 01:48:29 am »
the retaliation begins

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774

but why only older models? surely they can find reasons to also ban everything else fruity totally?

Warning shot.
 

Offline edy

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #74 on: December 11, 2018, 01:53:28 am »
the retaliation begins

https://www.wsj.com/articles/apple-hit-with-iphone-sales-ban-in-china-qualcomm-says-1544450774

but why only older models? surely they can find reasons to also ban everything else fruity totally?

This seems to be more of an Apple vs. Qualcomm issue as they are fighting each other around the globe regarding patent infringements and payments for the privilege of using certain chips in devices. However, it was expected China would look the other way and not accept Qualcomm's argument.... allowing iPhones to still be sold. Perhaps the latest tensions of trade and Huawei tainted the judgement here and they favored a win for Qualcomm to stifle Apple iPhone sales.

As you noted, it only affects older phones and it is unlikely that it can really be enforced as there is a healthy market within and outside of China where there are plenty of people who are moving these devices around, refurbishing, etc. I am not sure how Qualcomm is going to stop it and how. What you need is Chinese military blockade of Foxconn stopping all new iPhones from being made in their factory. Then Apple can move manufacturing back to the USA and charge $2000 for their next model.... oh wait, we're already paying that:

https://vancouversun.com/technology/personal-tech/canadians-pricing-for-new-iphones-range-from-1029-to-1999

 :-DD
« Last Edit: December 11, 2018, 01:56:17 am by edy »
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