Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 17992 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Wan Huang Luo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
  • 顽谎骆 from the Shenzhen Market
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #150 on: December 13, 2018, 03:51:08 pm »
I think in China the lines between high-ranking businesspeople and government officials are blurred. In Meng's case, that certainly seems to be true. So their upper echelons respond accordingly.
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1957
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #151 on: December 13, 2018, 03:58:49 pm »
My thoughts on working and production and consumerism...

Ultimately the supply of cheap goods and labor whether it be in China or other countries has been able to supply a high standard of living in richer countries. By "higher" I don't necessarily mean better quality necessarily or healthier, although they would have more resources to pay for things that do help in those ways. What I mean is that people can buy goods and accumulate a lot of stuff. Consumerism, commercialism, and also waste. This situation though is unsustainable.

Part of what we may be seeing over the next stage in societal evolution is less focus on cheap disposable wasteful consumer goods and more on recycling, reusing, repurposing, refurbishing, etc. I'm not saying for every type of product, obviously tech keeps advancing. But there are things that it may be better to pay for quality and use it longer, than pay cheap and throw it out all the time.

Chinese and other cheap goods have allowed Canada, USA and other countries to keep relatively stagnant wages with little inflation over much longer periods of time than before. It has also allowed the growth of Walmart, Amazon, eBay and so on, and killed most of the brick-and-mortar stores like Sears that catered to the middle-class. However, my Chinese toaster and Chinese-made leather shoes do not last as long as my German toaster and Italian shoes.... But the average worker who is not seeing a raise in their salary in years does't care because they can still buy stuff and enjoy a comfortable wage.

For US, Canada and others to abandon China and other cheap-goods manufacturing countries would be more psychology than anything. They have to abandon this idea of buying cheap and disposable and keep stuff longer and repair things. No more phone-update cycle of 2 years. People need to keep their tech for 5 years and longer. That may be the most difficult pill to swallow.
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 
The following users thanked this post: cdev, schmitt trigger

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 12433
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #152 on: December 13, 2018, 05:05:59 pm »
I think in China the lines between high-ranking businesspeople and government officials are blurred. In Meng's case, that certainly seems to be true. So their upper echelons respond accordingly.

What's wrong with Chinese government for demanding its people's lawful rights to be protected abroad?
AFAIK, she did nothing wrong while physically being abroad.
My understand of laws tells me that if I ordered assassination of Donald Trump while in China, and Chinese government refuses to expel me, then I can legally travel to US without being charged for anything.
And that's wrong for Chinese government capturing the two Canadian spies? They violated Chinese laws while physically staying in China. Anything wrong with that?

This is exactly why I chose not to go along H1B and green card path. I'm going back to China once my OPT ends.
The Western politics is filled with so much bullshit. Laws are not important, human right is.
According to what you guys say, if one supports dictator governments (in this case, Iran), even if he/she is lawful in his/her country, he/she should be punished.
And if one fights for human rights, even if he/she violated laws, he/she should be freed.

What a pile of bullshit it is. LAW IS ABSOLUTE AUTHORITY. You mess with it, you get f*ed. You get around with it, you can do anything.
 
The following users thanked this post: all_repair, bd139

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6203
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #153 on: December 13, 2018, 06:00:38 pm »
The Western politics is filled with so much bullshit. Laws are not important, human right is.
According to what you guys say, if one supports dictator governments (in this case, Iran), even if he/she is lawful in his/her country, he/she should be punished.
And if one fights for human rights, even if he/she violated laws, he/she should be freed.

What laws ? And what human right are you talking about ?  :-//

Fresh from memory as these happened in 2018.

Look what happened to Russia that get bullied in the Sergei Skripal assassination accusation, even Russia "denies" it.

.. and now compared to ..

Jamal Khashoggi butchering at Turkey (NATO member), even officials from Arab Saudi "admitted" it, see how US and puppies (UK, Canada, Australia, French etc) reaction ? They can not even make up their mind how and where to stand in position on this matter, let alone react to it.  :palm:

Now, imagine this ...

China officials publicly admit they've sent a dead squad to kill one of China critic abroad, exactly like Arab Saudi did to Khashoggi ...

 ... must be really funny to watch how US & puppies reaction on this.  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:05:44 pm by BravoV »
 
The following users thanked this post: wraper, Bud, blueskull

Offline Wan Huang Luo

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 137
  • Country: us
  • 顽谎骆 from the Shenzhen Market
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #154 on: December 13, 2018, 06:15:24 pm »
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 12433
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #155 on: December 13, 2018, 06:23:03 pm »
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.
 
The following users thanked this post: wraper, bd139

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #156 on: December 13, 2018, 06:41:27 pm »
Corporations, nomatter who or what they are, should not be above the law.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:43:48 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline edy

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1957
  • Country: ca
    • DevHackMod Channel
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #157 on: December 13, 2018, 06:47:31 pm »
Before this thread gets derailed and locked by the admin, let's get back to the main subject!  ;)

Mrs. Meng Wanzhou is now released on bail, she is able to roam around Vancouver, but must stay in her house at night. Otherwise she is free to go about her daily business while awaiting official decisions. She wears an ankle bracelet and has a personal security detail following her (possibly as much for her protection as it is for making sure she doesn't flee).

What we know is that the USA could take it's sweet time actually to file the extradition papers. That means Mrs. Wanzhou could be stuck in her Vancouver home for months. The longer the better, perhaps, as it could give her time for some way out of the extradition. Sadly, Trump claims he is not above using this to "twist arms" during trade negotiations with China, something even his own party warned him against. Justice is blind and people should be treated fairly... not some political weapon to be used to gain advantages when needed.

Here is some more details on the story:

https://globalnews.ca/news/4756109/meng-wanzhou-extradition-jody-wilson-raybould/

BTW: Mrs. Wanzhou ordered a whole bunch of boxes of pizza the other day while dozens of news reporters were outside her house filming and trying to probably get an interview with her or catch a photo. After the pizza guy delivered the pizza, she took a couple boxes in and gave all the other boxes to the reporters outside.  :-+

It sounds like Canada is being very careful each step of the way and making sure to drag it's heels to delay the process as long as possible, ensure justice is served, while Mrs. Wanzhou tries to live out her time as comfortably as possible in her Vancouver home, where she is free to roam around the city.

Meanwhile.... back in China we have 2 Canadians who are now being detained (in probably not very nice conditions, certainly not as nice as Mrs. Wanzhou) for doing what is seemingly considered anti-Chinese activities by the Chinese government, *in* China. Like that action is any surprise. The fact that China decided to act on it now is precisely because of Mrs. Wanzhou's arrest by Canadian authorities. If and when she is extradited to the USA to face charges, we may see US citizens in China also getting "removed". I am sure China already has a target list if they aren't working on one, ready to press the button depending on what happens. If I was a US citizen in China I would have bought a ticket out already.

Now while all this is going on, hopefully business as usual for the rest of us. I just ordered 3 items from China off eBay and I hope they arrive in a reasonable amount of time and in good shape. Many businesses rely on Chinese supply chains and how and what will be the outcome of these trade negotiations nobody knows. If tariffs are charged to increase the cost of Chinese goods, those extra tariffs will simply fill up the US government coffers. Chinese stuff will *still* be cheaper even with tariffs.

For example, something ordered from China may cost me $1, whereas here it will cost be $2-3 from a local supplier (and even then it is made in China, the local supplier just imports it). Even with 50% markup, I am still paying less on the Chinese item. If it is a business using Chinese components, it will just drive up their BOM cost even if they are assembling locally and increase their overall product cost. The field of play is so uneven that tariffs would have to multiply Chinese goods by 2-5x costs to even make it even! How is Trump going to approve or negotiate that?

By the way, I'm talking about electronics stuff... not other types of goods which I am not familiar with. Perhaps the outcome of these trade negotiations is not to even out electronics (which seems hopeless) but to force China to buy more US products they don't have (like pork bellies, grain, etc). The sum end-game would then even out trade, but I doubt it will affect electronics components costs and therefore tariffs on these just go to penalize consumers on stuff we cannot buy anywhere else anyways.
« Last Edit: December 13, 2018, 06:58:35 pm by edy »
YouTube: www.devhackmod.com
"Ye cannae change the laws of physics, captain" - Scotty
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 12433
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #158 on: December 13, 2018, 06:52:44 pm »
Corporations, nomatter who or what they are, should not be above the law.

True. BTW, the law means the applicable law in which the corporate action is taking place.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8084
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #159 on: December 13, 2018, 07:17:08 pm »
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position. It's estimated the average American commits three felonies a day every day, mostly because of the massive amount of laws being applicable at any time. These are generally not people out to break laws, just normal people. Law makers can't even actually say how many laws are applicable at any one time, so pretending anyone can reasonably adhere to them all isn't realistic.

This is actually one of the arguments against total surveillance. It would incriminate each and any one of us, which would allow governments to target people at will. Functioning societies have always been about a reasonable application of law which takes the reason for the law to exist into account, rather than laws being absolute.
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3542
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #160 on: December 13, 2018, 07:29:17 pm »
For US, Canada and others to abandon China and other cheap-goods manufacturing countries would be more psychology than anything. They have to abandon this idea of buying cheap and disposable and keep stuff longer and repair things. No more phone-update cycle of 2 years. People need to keep their tech for 5 years and longer. That may be the most difficult pill to swallow.
Put me in the front line for it,edy. The idea of buying chip has been long abandoned, my phone is 6 years old and updating it is the least of my worries.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6203
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #161 on: December 13, 2018, 07:29:49 pm »
Before this thread gets derailed and locked by the admin, let's get back to the main subject!  ;)

... <snip> ....

How is Trump going to approve or negotiate that?

... <snip> ...

Understand you're trying to pull back and stay on the subject on electronics market, but sorry, you have to see the whole picture to understand, that what are you questioning basically is meaningless.

Again, I don't mean to derail, and drag these into politic, but the fact is this is all politic moves.

Just search for news, subject "Huawei", you see, there have been recent massive "coordinated" attack at multiple fronts on Huawei product embargo, not only in US, but to all US puppies, say like Australia, New Zealand, Canada, Western European countries and heck, even recently Japan just officially joints the Huawei embargo club, really, poor Japan as they depends heavily on China and they aware of it.

All of these are coordinated and planned steps, starting from ZTE .. and it seems like Chinese can't be easily provoked, then US raises the bar, like adding up with recent multiple military provocation at Taiwan strait and South China Sea near their military base by US war ships, and then with this recent these Huawei massive global embargo + their CFO hostage arrest.

All US want to see is China's next "move", cause all the provocations seems doesn't yield as US expected, seems like China still really calm and cool headed.

And also, please, stop calling on how Canada's court and laws has the power on the CFO extradition to US, cause once you see the bigger picture, its sounds like a joke.  :-DD

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Banned!
  • Posts: 12433
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #162 on: December 13, 2018, 07:30:20 pm »
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position.

Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8084
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #163 on: December 13, 2018, 07:40:11 pm »
Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.
Fear is worthless, in the sense that it disappears as soon as you turn around. Respect is much more productive, as it stays when you're gone. It's also much harder to earn, which is why lesser men tend to prefer fear as their main instrument.
 

Online bd139

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 11916
  • Country: gb
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #164 on: December 13, 2018, 07:44:07 pm »
Fear works on the average man.

Respect works on the intelligent people.

Sad but true. Look at management styles in technology vs manufacturing firms for analogous behaviour.
 

Offline BrianHG

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3141
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #165 on: December 13, 2018, 09:58:20 pm »
Next update:

__________
BrianHG.
 

Offline Rick Law

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2696
  • Country: us
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #166 on: December 13, 2018, 10:00:34 pm »
...
Sadly, Trump claims he is not above using this to "twist arms" during trade negotiations with China, something even his own party warned him against. Justice is blind and people should be treated fairly... not some political weapon to be used to gain advantages when needed.
...

I agree with you to a large extend, but I think some "arm-twisting" is not always bad.  Frankly, I think many of us would agree even if this arrest is pure "arm twisting" during the trade negotiation, it may well be superior to full scale trade war.  Or perhaps a warning shot like "if you don't agree to stop doing those other bad things (such as lifting others intellectual property) we will begin throwing the books at you on all your miss-steps. starting right now..."  Neither of these two would be out of line in my view.

However, if this arrest is purely to slow Huawei down with 5G infrastructure, or if this is a move to show our other trading partner that you better stop illegal trade or else...  Either of those would not be a good thing in my mind.  I hope this move is pure (as in what you see is really what is going on and no other hidden agenda).
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8084
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #167 on: December 13, 2018, 11:14:48 pm »
I agree with you to a large extend, but I think some "arm-twisting" is not always bad.  Frankly, I think many of us would agree even if this arrest is pure "arm twisting" during the trade negotiation, it may well be superior to full scale trade war.  Or perhaps a warning shot like "if you don't agree to stop doing those other bad things (such as lifting others intellectual property) we will begin throwing the books at you on all your miss-steps. starting right now..."  Neither of these two would be out of line in my view.

However, if this arrest is purely to slow Huawei down with 5G infrastructure, or if this is a move to show our other trading partner that you better stop illegal trade or else...  Either of those would not be a good thing in my mind.  I hope this move is pure (as in what you see is really what is going on and no other hidden agenda).
Just don't come crying when China does some arm-twisting of its own.
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1285
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #168 on: December 13, 2018, 11:45:58 pm »
Democracy is the dictatorship of the law.... Gerhard Schroeder  German chancellor

Discuss
 
The following users thanked this post: blueskull

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3905
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #169 on: December 14, 2018, 12:09:12 am »
So what it actually boils down to then is two children squabbling and making threats about a contents of the huge toy box and the means to control of it.

Maybe we need say and Motherly way to sort out that childish dispute Mmmmm oh wait we do have one it's called media manipulation of the sheepizens the WTO.

How it started to heat up and when  https://www.wto.org/english/news_e/news18_e/ds565rfc_27aug18_e.htm That's right China sought to use the correct mechanism to get a resolution but Trump and Chronies didn't like it so here we are after much inflated bs and hypocrisy from bothsides.

Facts are for most of us zero difference to our work or daily lives or access to anything we need. There is always another way to get it done that is why we are Engineers.





Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8084
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #170 on: December 14, 2018, 12:10:25 am »
Democracy is the dictatorship of the law.... Gerhard Schroeder  German chancellor

Discuss
No thanks, we're good.
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3384
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #171 on: December 14, 2018, 02:35:29 am »
china is kidnapping canadians though
 

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3905
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #172 on: December 14, 2018, 02:43:48 am »
china is kidnapping canadians though

Not at all China has 'used' their extremely harsh Totalitarian and protectionist laws as they are allowed to. If as reported he was not conforming to the BS law due to unworkable requirements and permits it really doesn't matter he and his organisation was in breech.

What they fail to understand is demanding another country ignore their laws (Canadian) to please China is  :bullshit: and this seemingly tit for tat response just adds to the pile of  :bullshit:
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6203
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #173 on: December 14, 2018, 02:44:13 am »
china is kidnapping canadians though

You must be not surprised by that are you ? Just two words ... Guantanamo Bay.  >:D

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3384
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #174 on: December 14, 2018, 02:45:53 am »
The law being an absolute authority is a silly position.

Go ask Lee Kuan Yew. See how his "absolute fear to law" solution made Singapore the most developed country in Asia.

One of his quotes being between being loved and being feared, I have always believed Machiavelli was right. If nobody is afraid of me, I'm meaningless.

Lee Kuan Yew, Mao Ze Dong and Chiang Kai Shi are all some of the most successful dictators, and both did absolutely great things to their countries, though horrible.

ok this is just fucking ridiculous. do you call killing something like 20 mil people during a reign to be some how atonable by deeds? how much great stuff could all those people that starved and were purged done? dude this is the most brain washed shit I ever read. His policies resulted in mass murder to numbers we can't even imagine. It's like if you took a city off a map and someone said your great for fixing something else.

WHat you can say is that he managed to run a country by killing 20 million or more people. The people there did stuff. Are you saying the people there would have done less stuff if there was no massive catastrophes? He signed papers and ranted at a podium, like hitler, chinese people did all the great shit (yea it is impressive, they managed to keep it together with a genocidal nut running the government).

If I had a factory, decided to kill or fire 20% of the work force so I can use my shitty management practices to run things better, did I do things better, or would it be better if I had better management practices and 100% of my manufacturing force?


"oh yea the accounting department and human resources is over loaded because we have lazy slugs that work there, fuck the investors, my ego is more important, I will reduce numbers until things can run right with the current people in place". Bro he is a fucking criminal. The thing between canada and China reads like some fucking Godfather episode.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 02:50:33 am by coppercone2 »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf