Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 18808 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3960
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #200 on: December 15, 2018, 12:28:08 am »
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #201 on: December 15, 2018, 12:49:53 am »
It was a different era then than today. Back then genocide counted for far more than IP theft.

</SARCASM>

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 
The following users thanked this post: beanflying

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #202 on: December 15, 2018, 04:09:17 am »
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.

There is a good comparison to be made between the USSR/Communist belief and the Blob. And there is the little cinematic in the original Red Alert game that shows it spreading like a blob on a map.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12479
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #203 on: December 15, 2018, 04:40:52 am »
Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.

The timid preys go for democracy. The vicious predators go for dictatorship.
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #204 on: December 15, 2018, 06:48:01 am »
I am going to leave my feelings out of this but what you say is a 2 quadrant solution to a 4 or more quadrant problem

There is the size of the government (big or small government)
-size of the government indicates how much group protection you want

there is the style of government
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
-something in between like elected officials is a mixture , you trust some people at certain times for certain things (ideal not possible without something like Deus Ex 2's nano hive mind endings with the omar and denton due to the existence of time constants (even in politics you can say socialism has a severe lag or any sort of command economy has a severe temporal lag).

I think this complicates your simple statement.

You also need to consider not only the size of the government but its responsibilities. What is privatized and what is not privatized. Something like 'private police force' relates directly to the 'cowardice' you mention

The general statement is extremely confusing and propagandistic .
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 06:51:07 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #205 on: December 15, 2018, 03:57:31 pm »
A lot of the issues involving business relations across borders are in fact in the hands of the WTO, which shouldnt inspire any confidence that they would handle them right.

Basically the WTO was set up by the biggest countries economically at the time to protect and facilitate their investment in other countries under terms they wanted at the time. (Special statuses: look up 'National Treatment' 'Most Favored Nation')

Countries where they felt they could extract the highest yields on investments. But the deals are reciprocal and now we have problems in that they made commitments and made countries make commitments which don't work for their people, only for their wealthiest.

These deals commit countries to constantly reduce "non-tariff" barriers to trade (this is called 'progressive liberalisation' and its just totally inconsistent with democratic rule of law on the national level because its invariably things that people do not want.)

Trade barriers as WTO frames them are as often as not good things, not bad, a category that includes basically all the good things that PEOPLE VOTED FOR over the last 100 years. (Everything that protects them from the maxing out of what amounts to a feudal exploitation of the country by corporations)

Thanks to the ever rising power of corporations - the WTO meets every two years to pressure countries to privatize more, to give up more of their social safety nets, irreversibly (there is a ratchet there)

In order to 'justify' this they are insisting that it will help the poor countries corporations as much or more than the rich ones, but that is really debatable. Also is it really wise to prop up dictators with what amount to special concessions for foreign firms (they may get to establish businesses that have much lower costs than domestic firms, which have certain standards they must apply, like paying wages that are many times higher to their workers) Foreign firms simply must pay a 'legal' wage.

Trade barriers are the things that make it possible for families to manage - But they stand in the way of profit maximization- So virtually all - even in the poor countries - they are all supposed to go away to facilitate international trade. (in other words the WTO model has a race to the bottom on things like the hard won improvements in wages and working conditions as well as not discriminating against various groups and safety regs).

Of course they aren't going to rub this in peoples faces so there is a lot of lying going on. Because otherwise people would not be quiet.

For example, in the US the WTO is the real reason the health insurance for people with pre-existing conditions has to be rolled back (to its state 20 years ago, in February 1998) not a very recent federal court decision. Thats going to mean that a lot of people may have to leave the country to find affordable health care. The current system isnt up to the challenge. Same thing in the other wealthy countries. Wages have not kept up with the prices of things like drugs and medical care, which can often bankrupt families.

So basically we're unlikely to be able to figure out whats going on, just from what we read in the news. WTO involvement is much harder to follow.

I have to say though, if Huawei agreed to not share this technology but shared it then they broke a bargain which had been conditional on their not doing that and that is a violation of both US law and contract law which is pretty much the same everywhere.

And the risk of arms proliferation is a serious one.

We made a big mistake by de-emphasizing human rights in the WTO - because thats the area where attention needs to be focused. Setting up an intentionally human rights and labor rights -blind WTO leaves us in a bad position where we have few in the way of ways to stop really bad things. And people everywhere are going to suffer greatly.

The human race may not survive the century because of this stupidity. Because it becomes impossible to encourage improvements in any area when the official line is that they were all impermissible trade barriers, and must be temporary because 'the market' and increased global trade and elimination of rules which raise wages and allow a middle class to exist were all mistakes and now trade is the only permissible solution to all problems and lacks of affordability.

So expect a return to child labor and illiteracy and a sort of dark age of feudalism run and sham politics 'owned' in the worst sense by corporations because thats what the WTO and similar trade organizations and deals are pushing us back to. Of course this is what the oligarchs in the least equal nations want because they are sick of paying taxes to support an infrastructure and population they no longer think they need as business automates.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 04:28:30 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8156
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #206 on: December 15, 2018, 04:26:46 pm »
The timid preys go for democracy. The vicious predators go for dictatorship.
Resorting to force is a sign of weakness. It's no coincidence that the least stable dictators need the most force to assert their often waining power. If you're secure about your position, you don't need to reassert it continually, and can even afford to have it challenged. I'll quote myself.

Fear is worthless, in the sense that it disappears as soon as you turn around. Respect is much more productive, as it stays when you're gone. It's also much harder to earn, which is why lesser men tend to prefer fear as their main instrument.
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1299
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #207 on: December 15, 2018, 08:26:01 pm »
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12479
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #208 on: December 15, 2018, 08:59:52 pm »
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.
Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.
 

Offline Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3613
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #209 on: December 15, 2018, 09:27:29 pm »
Is the Mao's little book is still sold in China?
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #210 on: December 15, 2018, 09:49:23 pm »
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.

Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12479
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #211 on: December 15, 2018, 09:54:49 pm »
Is the Mao's little book is still sold in China?

Yes, as collectibles.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #213 on: December 16, 2018, 12:08:52 am »
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill
 

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3960
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #214 on: December 16, 2018, 12:39:46 am »
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.
Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.

China is just starting down that 'Belt and Road' with 'Loans' to other governments too just give it a little time to work then China will have leverage when repayments aren't met!  :--
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3960
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #215 on: December 16, 2018, 12:46:03 am »
Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.

And yet again 'assuming' you are Zimbabwean you ignore your own countries non democracy and state sanctioned torture and murders. Not to mention inter tribal conflict violence and Murders .....

People who live (or even don't live) in glass houses should not throw stones. You keep ranting about failures in other countries but seem to conveniently avoid your own? Hypocrisy or selective omission?
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12479
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #216 on: December 16, 2018, 01:10:11 am »
China is just starting down that 'Belt and Road' with 'Loans' to other governments too just give it a little time to work then China will have leverage when repayments aren't met!  :--

OBOR is not for getting payments. China doesn't need a one shot payment. China wants to expand its industry to other countries, and make cut from its revenue.
China is more than happy to ask just some cut from the operating revenue, instead of the initial investment reimbursement.
That's why all China's OBOR projects are infrastructure ones. Its return is low and slow, but stable. As long as the region doesn't suffer from wars, the need of transportation and communication is constant, stable and consistent.
OBOR IMHO is all about to create a soviet union centered with China. With China providing technology and capital support, and the joining countries providing resource, labor and political affinity. Money is never a goal.
And of course, the state leaders get a private cut. So everyone gets what it needs, as long as you join the alliance.

Don't think OBOR an investment. It's just BRICS 2.0.
 

Online beanflying

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3960
  • Country: au
  • Toys so very many Toys.
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #217 on: December 16, 2018, 01:21:25 am »
Belt and Road was meant to be a play on words.

Wonder if China start using 'their' island of Tonga for Communist Party members holidays  ::) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/tonga-to-start-repaying-controversial-chinese-loans/10013996

A loan is not 'Aid' in any sense of the word I know. https://chineseaidmap.lowyinstitute.org/
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order :)
 

Offline IanB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9593
  • Country: us
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #218 on: December 16, 2018, 01:28:43 am »
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
I'm not an EE--what am I doing here?
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #219 on: December 16, 2018, 01:50:06 am »
Adjustment to democracy is extremely difficult if something was held together in a high stress configuration like dictators that threaten unity or else when enough elements of society don't want unity.

IMO belt and road is a predatory loaning practice, partially like John Gotti handing out free turkeys out the back of a (stolen) truck (publicity stunt).

Blue Skulls description is correct. But its like taking money from the Mafia. Pampering poor kids a bit for odd jobs so they can grow into members.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:53:42 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #220 on: December 16, 2018, 01:51:27 am »
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
Well, yes, but I didn't mean stability in government in that sense. You could say democracy is very noisy, but long term it should average out and be more stable overall. Democracies has lot of drama, but stays roughly on the same heading over time while with dictatorships you have the same aristocracy in power year after year and no public dissent, but they can easily end up implementing extreme policy since there are no checks and balances. That said, modern "liberal democracies" haven't existed for very long.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:55:02 am by apis »
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #221 on: December 16, 2018, 01:56:07 am »
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill

It's time limited but you still decided that in the initial condition (well not really because it was a revolutionary government formation built under struggle) in an initial condition everyone can vote on who gets elected so over enough time it should clean itself from the initial conditions (i.e. voluntary government positions or government based on military achievement).

 What you are saying is that the form of government has a paranoia built in (which is defiantly does) based on psychological factors. I kind of see that like changing a part once in a while based on MTBF only, we are allowed one inspection every 4 years but its hard limited to 8 years continuous service with a four year duty cycle kinda (maybe comparable to looking for strain relaxation related fracture or something). maybe someone can re sharpen it?

I kinda see it like trying to make sure there is even wear on all parts in the system, like making sure a cutter does not develop a slant.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfvCJ1eHimngDysCuJzgA9cE_5fK96LsdMd9EaxF2Mc4El0dr70w

A dictatorship is some hard ass machining soft butter on a single sided cutter till the lathe explodes  :-DD  . Someone put a cutting torch aiming at the work piece and added some expensive pamper ass water cooling on the cutter and does not give a shit what happens because you never did any maintenance.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 02:01:28 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1299
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #222 on: December 16, 2018, 02:03:49 am »
Coopercone,

A small lesson in history... Almost all royal households of Europe are ( were ) linked through blood lines to the Danish ( Germanic ) Royal household.

Charlemaigne comes into play here, a Germanic war lord who was and is recognised as "the barbarian at the gate " of Rome.
Hwe is the one who had himself pronounced the King of Europe at the price of not sacking Rome.

He is the one who gave miltiary strength to the Holy Roman Western empire and made sure the Popes authority was absolute.

Henceforth only those Kings loyal to Rome could be called kings. This is the beginning of European democracy. Pretty sickening ...

And dont think of magna carta as anything else other than what it was.. a POWER SHARING agreement between greedy lords  and a selfish crown.

For a better start to democracy go search for Dushanov zakonik ...

Meanwhile Europe went through two bloody wars and a whole bunch of other earlier wars in order to finally reach Napoleonic times ( post French revolution ) and a series of high moral ground treaties which in the end gave us "The tail wag the dog " scenario alluded to the earlier post.

Now for the measure of the fang... does the end justify the means?

And pre WW2 Yugoslavia was a parliamentary monarchy .. akin to the Westminster model.. it was during WW2 that the western powers supported the communists  and in fact supported them in the civil war which ran in parallel with German occupation.

Again during the '90s it was the west which supported Islamic extremists in Bosnia ( Bin Laden had a Bosnian passport) to the extent of nullifying the outcome of a free and democratic election and installing Izetbegovic ( the author of Islamic declaration a book so often compared to Mein Kampf ).

This is not the Hybrid PI equivalent of a common emitter amplifier.. this is not even the shunt series feed back pair and Miller capacitance effect... this is beyond Your ken.

 
 

Offline Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8156
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #223 on: December 16, 2018, 02:05:49 am »
Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.
You tout Western hypocrisy a lot, but never properly defined or explained it. Please do so.
 

Offline coppercone2

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3460
  • Country: us
  • 💎
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #224 on: December 16, 2018, 02:32:26 am »
I believe any early yugoslavian elections after the fall were seen as severely contaminated by the existing deep state which was not necessarily favorable to the demographics

nor was the electoral system properly setup to do this, which is why you needed the brains of europe to find a proper electoral system for such a complicated mess, This ties into why the electoral system of a place like Bosnia now is so complicated, so votes can be weighed fairly. Look how many representatives they need from various regions to properly set this up.

The USA went through this too with things like the 3/5th compromise IMO,
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 02:35:51 am by coppercone2 »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf