Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 43232 times)

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Offline coppice

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #175 on: December 14, 2018, 09:25:47 am »
A more apt example would be how the US stole supersonic technology from the Brits. The Americans essentially dotted the i's and claimed the whole thing. Fairly dickish move, all things considered.

"In 1944, design work was considered 90 per cent complete and Miles was told to proceed with the construction of a total of three prototype M.52s. Later that year, the Air Ministry signed an agreement with the United States to exchange high-speed research and data. Miles Chief Aerodynamicist Dennis Bancroft stated that the Bell Aircraft company was given access to the drawings and research on the M.52; however, the U.S. reneged on the agreement and no data was forthcoming in return."
Britain handed over gas turbine technology and actual engine designs to Russia as well. I've never even seen an attempt at trying to explain a strategy behind this. Then Britain wondered why it was sinking into irrelevance in the modern world.
 

Offline edyTopic starter

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #176 on: December 14, 2018, 02:35:41 pm »
Back to Mrs. Wanzhou, so Canadian and American officials meeting over next few days in Washington to decide what to do with the situation, and how to guarantee the release of the Canadians that were arrested as well. A prisoner swap may be in order but Americans would never agree, there is no way to know if China will comply on their end and Canada needs the US to help them as they have the muscle to deal with China, although it seems Canada can no longer rely on US under Trump as an ally. Look what happened with Saudi Arabia criticism by Canada for human rights abuses... Diplomats ambassadors kicked out, and foreign students and investments withdrawn, while US stood by silently and even in support of Saudi regime (since they give us cheap oil and buy our weapons - good for business - if we don't do it someone else will). Now if Canada complies as it most likely will, US gets their bargaining chip, works out a better trade deal, Canada gets shafted by both China and US for the long haul. Will be interesting to see what happens as this story continues to develop.  :popcorn: ...it's a good thing Canadians have weed... going to need it...  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 02:43:36 pm by edy »
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Offline Gribo

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #177 on: December 14, 2018, 05:22:25 pm »
Sadly (Or luckily), Canada doesn't have a list of targets.
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Offline BravoV

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #178 on: December 14, 2018, 05:36:11 pm »
... Canada gets shafted by both China and US for the long haul ...

That is the price that Canada has to pay as US puppy, too bad, imho, you guys Canuckians are not under big threat say like Russia on your Europeans counterparts, and your land and soil is well protected by Pacific & Atlantic oceans, why need to hide under the Uncle Sam's arm pit for protection ?  :-//


Read here recent development -> Yale’s Stephen Roach questions why Huawei has been ‘singled out’ for sanctions violation

Quote :

...  “A number of financial institutions, including JP Morgan, Bank of America, Wells Fargo and international banks, were all judged guilty and paid enormous fines for violating sanctions in the last several years, ” Roach told CNBC’s Eunice Yoon on Friday. “None of their executives, of course, went to jail — why is Huawei being singled out for the sanctions violations?” ....


No offence, I'm not buying on Canada's crap at abiding & upholding laws superiority as an excuse to publicly kidnap foreign citizen.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2018, 05:40:26 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #179 on: December 14, 2018, 11:04:21 pm »
The US did arrest the Volkswagen CEO for the diesel emissions scandal.
 
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Offline jmelson

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #180 on: December 14, 2018, 11:19:26 pm »
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #181 on: December 14, 2018, 11:41:51 pm »
The leadership of the German rocket scientists were eager to surrender to the Americans. And not the Red Army. For very good reasons.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 12:00:04 am by cdev »
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #182 on: December 15, 2018, 12:28:08 am »
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #183 on: December 15, 2018, 12:49:53 am »
It was a different era then than today. Back then genocide counted for far more than IP theft.

</SARCASM>

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Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #184 on: December 15, 2018, 04:09:17 am »
As I mentioned several pages ago the US effectively stole the beginnings of it's rocketry and space program from the Germans as did the Russians on the other side. Add to this whatever else they have 'borrowed' from the USSR since by covert means.
Wait a minute!  The Germans STARTED a war, which by THEIR actions eventually involved almost the whole world.  Then, they LOST that war.  Germany was divvied up by the victors and occupied, as a defeated power.  The victors de-milled Germany to prevent them becoming a military power again.

This is ALL very different from "stealing" technology.

Jon

Doesn't matter why it was done but when, it wasn't your technology to start with, you didn't buy it from their legal government or companies (such as it was left and yes they still existed in the legal sense) and it was stolen long before Germany was 'divided up' as you put it.

So apart from the old adage about to the victors go the spoils it was still IP theft. But another old adage says history is written by the victors. Neither has any legal standing or had at the time as far as I am aware (I stand to be corrected on that).

Yes I know the most of the Germans Scientists jumped at the chance to head West over the USSR. Along with any of the population able to.

There is a good comparison to be made between the USSR/Communist belief and the Blob. And there is the little cinematic in the original Red Alert game that shows it spreading like a blob on a map.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #185 on: December 15, 2018, 06:48:01 am »
I am going to leave my feelings out of this but what you say is a 2 quadrant solution to a 4 or more quadrant problem

There is the size of the government (big or small government)
-size of the government indicates how much group protection you want

there is the style of government
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
-something in between like elected officials is a mixture , you trust some people at certain times for certain things (ideal not possible without something like Deus Ex 2's nano hive mind endings with the omar and denton due to the existence of time constants (even in politics you can say socialism has a severe lag or any sort of command economy has a severe temporal lag).

I think this complicates your simple statement.

You also need to consider not only the size of the government but its responsibilities. What is privatized and what is not privatized. Something like 'private police force' relates directly to the 'cowardice' you mention

The general statement is extremely confusing and propagandistic .
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 06:51:07 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #186 on: December 15, 2018, 03:57:31 pm »
A lot of the issues involving business relations across borders are in fact in the hands of the WTO, which shouldnt inspire any confidence that they would handle them right.

Basically the WTO was set up by the biggest countries economically at the time to protect and facilitate their investment in other countries under terms they wanted at the time. (Special statuses: look up 'National Treatment' 'Most Favored Nation')

Countries where they felt they could extract the highest yields on investments. But the deals are reciprocal and now we have problems in that they made commitments and made countries make commitments which don't work for their people, only for their wealthiest.

These deals commit countries to constantly reduce "non-tariff" barriers to trade (this is called 'progressive liberalisation' and its just totally inconsistent with democratic rule of law on the national level because its invariably things that people do not want.)

Trade barriers as WTO frames them are as often as not good things, not bad, a category that includes basically all the good things that PEOPLE VOTED FOR over the last 100 years. (Everything that protects them from the maxing out of what amounts to a feudal exploitation of the country by corporations)

Thanks to the ever rising power of corporations - the WTO meets every two years to pressure countries to privatize more, to give up more of their social safety nets, irreversibly (there is a ratchet there)

In order to 'justify' this they are insisting that it will help the poor countries corporations as much or more than the rich ones, but that is really debatable. Also is it really wise to prop up dictators with what amount to special concessions for foreign firms (they may get to establish businesses that have much lower costs than domestic firms, which have certain standards they must apply, like paying wages that are many times higher to their workers) Foreign firms simply must pay a 'legal' wage.

Trade barriers are the things that make it possible for families to manage - But they stand in the way of profit maximization- So virtually all - even in the poor countries - they are all supposed to go away to facilitate international trade. (in other words the WTO model has a race to the bottom on things like the hard won improvements in wages and working conditions as well as not discriminating against various groups and safety regs).

Of course they aren't going to rub this in peoples faces so there is a lot of lying going on. Because otherwise people would not be quiet.

For example, in the US the WTO is the real reason the health insurance for people with pre-existing conditions has to be rolled back (to its state 20 years ago, in February 1998) not a very recent federal court decision. Thats going to mean that a lot of people may have to leave the country to find affordable health care. The current system isnt up to the challenge. Same thing in the other wealthy countries. Wages have not kept up with the prices of things like drugs and medical care, which can often bankrupt families.

So basically we're unlikely to be able to figure out whats going on, just from what we read in the news. WTO involvement is much harder to follow.

I have to say though, if Huawei agreed to not share this technology but shared it then they broke a bargain which had been conditional on their not doing that and that is a violation of both US law and contract law which is pretty much the same everywhere.

And the risk of arms proliferation is a serious one.

We made a big mistake by de-emphasizing human rights in the WTO - because thats the area where attention needs to be focused. Setting up an intentionally human rights and labor rights -blind WTO leaves us in a bad position where we have few in the way of ways to stop really bad things. And people everywhere are going to suffer greatly.

The human race may not survive the century because of this stupidity. Because it becomes impossible to encourage improvements in any area when the official line is that they were all impermissible trade barriers, and must be temporary because 'the market' and increased global trade and elimination of rules which raise wages and allow a middle class to exist were all mistakes and now trade is the only permissible solution to all problems and lacks of affordability.

So expect a return to child labor and illiteracy and a sort of dark age of feudalism run and sham politics 'owned' in the worst sense by corporations because thats what the WTO and similar trade organizations and deals are pushing us back to. Of course this is what the oligarchs in the least equal nations want because they are sick of paying taxes to support an infrastructure and population they no longer think they need as business automates.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2018, 04:28:30 pm by cdev »
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #187 on: December 15, 2018, 04:26:46 pm »
The timid preys go for democracy. The vicious predators go for dictatorship.
Resorting to force is a sign of weakness. It's no coincidence that the least stable dictators need the most force to assert their often waining power. If you're secure about your position, you don't need to reassert it continually, and can even afford to have it challenged. I'll quote myself.

Fear is worthless, in the sense that it disappears as soon as you turn around. Respect is much more productive, as it stays when you're gone. It's also much harder to earn, which is why lesser men tend to prefer fear as their main instrument.
 

Offline IconicPCB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #188 on: December 15, 2018, 08:26:01 pm »
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.
 

Online Bud

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #189 on: December 15, 2018, 09:27:29 pm »
Is the Mao's little book is still sold in China?
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Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #190 on: December 15, 2018, 09:49:23 pm »
In an "off the cuff" comment many years ago on a free to air TV show a former Labor minister, Barry Jones, commented he was a member of a mission to former Yugoslavia in late eighties charged with negotiating access of Western capital to Yugoslav economy.
In other words an effort to gain control of Yugoslav economy.
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.

Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

It is my understanding that the largest deposits of European brown coal in Serbia's district of Kosovo are now under the control of Enron  headed by General Wesley Clark's son and the telecom's infrastructure in Kosovo is under the control of Madeleine Allbright.

All of the other major resource industries like steel smelting, copper and gold mines etc are under foreign control.

Market democracy in action.

Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.
 

Offline cdev

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Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #192 on: December 16, 2018, 12:08:52 am »
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #193 on: December 16, 2018, 12:39:46 am »
The then government of Yugoslavia thanked them for the offer and rejected it.
Jones concluded by saying ",,, and than is why Yugoslavia had to be destroyed..."

Western hypocrisy at its finest moment.
This is why in China we say weak countries don't have diplomacy. A quote from Mao.

China is just starting down that 'Belt and Road' with 'Loans' to other governments too just give it a little time to work then China will have leverage when repayments aren't met!  :--
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #194 on: December 16, 2018, 12:46:03 am »
Did you ever realize how hard it is to stabilize that country?

The democracy in place now is one of the worlds most complicated (look at how elections take place in Bosnia). It is extremely racially divided. It has in my opinion similar problems to Iraq of all places when it comes to preventing tyranny of the democracy. What was put in place is not great but I am pretty sure those resources would be impossible to divide in a civil manner (without catastrophic loss of life) following the break down of Communist Yugoslavia.

What is in place now in that location is not great but notice how they are not having civil wars and genocides going down? I think given the circumstances it was a good solution.

And yet again 'assuming' you are Zimbabwean you ignore your own countries non democracy and state sanctioned torture and murders. Not to mention inter tribal conflict violence and Murders .....

People who live (or even don't live) in glass houses should not throw stones. You keep ranting about failures in other countries but seem to conveniently avoid your own? Hypocrisy or selective omission?
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Offline beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #195 on: December 16, 2018, 01:21:25 am »
Belt and Road was meant to be a play on words.

Wonder if China start using 'their' island of Tonga for Communist Party members holidays  ::) https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-19/tonga-to-start-repaying-controversial-chinese-loans/10013996

A loan is not 'Aid' in any sense of the word I know. https://chineseaidmap.lowyinstitute.org/
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Offline IanB

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #196 on: December 16, 2018, 01:28:43 am »
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #197 on: December 16, 2018, 01:50:06 am »
Adjustment to democracy is extremely difficult if something was held together in a high stress configuration like dictators that threaten unity or else when enough elements of society don't want unity.

IMO belt and road is a predatory loaning practice, partially like John Gotti handing out free turkeys out the back of a (stolen) truck (publicity stunt).

Blue Skulls description is correct. But its like taking money from the Mafia. Pampering poor kids a bit for odd jobs so they can grow into members.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:53:42 am by coppercone2 »
 

Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #198 on: December 16, 2018, 01:51:27 am »
All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability.

This I don't think is accurate at all. Democracy promotes instability and frequent change. Observing the operation of any Western democratic state should convince you of that. A worst case being Italy.

From observation the evidence shows that dictatorship leads to the longest lasting and most stable governments.
Well, yes, but I didn't mean stability in government in that sense. You could say democracy is very noisy, but long term it should average out and be more stable overall. Democracies has lot of drama, but stays roughly on the same heading over time while with dictatorships you have the same aristocracy in power year after year and no public dissent, but they can easily end up implementing extreme policy since there are no checks and balances. That said, modern "liberal democracies" haven't existed for very long.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 01:55:02 am by apis »
 

Online coppercone2

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #199 on: December 16, 2018, 01:56:07 am »
-dictatorship means you don't trust most people and you wanna find a solid monolithic system
-democracy means you want a distributed system, you trust most people somewhat
I wouldn't put it like that.

Democracy is designed the way it is because to avoid putting too much trust into a single person or group. That is why you have separation of power, and why you can only be, e.g., POTUS for at most 8 years. All the important components of democracy helps to provide stability. Like popular voting for example, surely, the majority won't vote for a complete ignoramus right (:palm:). But even if they did, (s)he wouldn't have total power and would stay in power only for a limited time. Conversely, in dictatorship you will be stuck with the same idiot until he dies, after which he is usually replaced by an even bigger disaster. Even if you believe in the benevolent dictator, the philosopher king, people change and eventually die, sooner or later even the perfect leader becomes unfit for duty and has to be replaced, and history shows dynasties quickly deteriorate.

Not like democracy is a perfect system or without problems, but:
Quote
Indeed it has been said that democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time. —Churchill

It's time limited but you still decided that in the initial condition (well not really because it was a revolutionary government formation built under struggle) in an initial condition everyone can vote on who gets elected so over enough time it should clean itself from the initial conditions (i.e. voluntary government positions or government based on military achievement).

 What you are saying is that the form of government has a paranoia built in (which is defiantly does) based on psychological factors. I kind of see that like changing a part once in a while based on MTBF only, we are allowed one inspection every 4 years but its hard limited to 8 years continuous service with a four year duty cycle kinda (maybe comparable to looking for strain relaxation related fracture or something). maybe someone can re sharpen it?

I kinda see it like trying to make sure there is even wear on all parts in the system, like making sure a cutter does not develop a slant.

https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfvCJ1eHimngDysCuJzgA9cE_5fK96LsdMd9EaxF2Mc4El0dr70w

A dictatorship is some hard ass machining soft butter on a single sided cutter till the lathe explodes  :-DD  . Someone put a cutting torch aiming at the work piece and added some expensive pamper ass water cooling on the cutter and does not give a shit what happens because you never did any maintenance.
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 02:01:28 am by coppercone2 »
 


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