Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 19364 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #225 on: December 16, 2018, 02:36:49 am »
Henceforth only those Kings loyal to Rome could be called kings. This is the beginning of European democracy. Pretty sickening ...
Charlemagne had a lot to do with the Christianisation of Europe but nothing with democracy? (There is a reason that period is called the dark ages). Our current democracies grew out of the age of enlightenment, inspired by ideas from antiquity.
 

Offline IconicPCB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1302
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #226 on: December 16, 2018, 03:30:23 am »
The age of enlightnemnt as You put it is presumably the italian reneisance which according to some Italian scholars was seeded by refugees post the Battle of Kosovo.
At the endof bombing of Serbia in Nineties, italian scholars hurried to Kosov to see what could be salvaged from various monasteries and churchers blown up under the watchfull eye of NATO and kind harted hand of KLA ( some 150 churches and monasteries blown up POST ilegal nato agression some dating to ninth century ) . To their amasement they discovered pre reneisance culture In Kosovo.

At the end of battle of Kosovo ( 1389AD  ) during the subsequent decades, large numbers of population fled to Italy under the pressure from Otoman turk invader and formed bsis for development of reneisance italy according to the italian scholars.

This is not surprising since back in the day  ( 100 or so years prior to the arrival of Ottoman Turk ) French Princess Helen of Anjou became Serbian Queen and under her a girls only school was established.  Some 50 years after the Battle of Kosov that part of the world was a home to the first printing press.

The people there unlike the claim Coppercone makes have a long history and tradition of scholarship and freedoms as attested to by the existence of Dushanov Zakonik  ie Dusan' Canon  ( circa 1349 in present day capital of Macedonia , Skopje ).

We now have a  very derogatory expression... Balkanisation.  Tis is what makes some think of the peoples there as wild and unrully.

It is more likely that the Balkans have been westernised ... and now they look wild and unrully.
The peoples of Bosnia while of of Serbian origins are of  islamic faith,  have been brutalised by Ottomans , Germans, Americans and now Arab Wahabi ( taliban ) to seal in the islamic tradition into the fabric of Europe.

They do not need special European solutions.  They need their own history back. Not some imported " wag the dog " guidance.
 
The following users thanked this post: beanflying

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #227 on: December 16, 2018, 03:31:34 am »
If you read up some of the more recent literature on economics you'll see that democracy and national sovereignty are now viewed as inconsistent with the multilateral trading system and its global economic integration.

That presents a legitimacy problem, yes. Much has been written about that too.

This has been done because of the permanent, irreversible rights awarded international investors by trade agreements conflict with democracy.

Dani Rodrik has written a fair amount about it and has become associated with this trilemma.

The argument goes that were a country to re-implement democracy, people would just vote to fix everything, and 'highly mobile global capital' would flee. But I think thats just total BS.

This is just nuts. We have to do better by people than this! The media should be all over this story. But its not, its hiding it.



Also google "Washington Consensus" .



« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 07:46:41 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #228 on: December 16, 2018, 05:40:46 pm »
The age of enlightnemnt as You put it is presumably the italian reneisance which according to some Italian scholars was seeded by refugees post the Battle of Kosovo.
No I didn't mean the renaissance. No offence but maybe you should refrain from giving history lessons. :P
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_Enlightenment
« Last Edit: December 16, 2018, 05:49:45 pm by apis »
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #229 on: December 16, 2018, 07:01:17 pm »
What about India? It seemed a few years ago that everybody was predicting India would take off.


Quote

https://www.economist.com/briefing/2018/01/11/indias-missing-middle-class


Many companies around the world are looking to India for a repeat performance of China’s middle-class expansion. India is, after all, another country with 1.3bn people, a fast-growing economy and favourable demography. And China’s growth is flagging, at least by the standards of the past two decades. Companies which made a packet there, both incomers such as Apple and locals like Alibaba, are seeking pastures new. Firms that missed the boat on China or, like Amazon and Facebook, were simply not allowed in, want to be sure that they do not miss out this time.

Enthusiasm about India is boundless. “I see a lot of similarities to where China was several years ago. And so I’m very, very bullish and very, very optimistic about India,” Tim Cook, Apple’s boss, recently told investors. A walk around the Ambience Mall in Delhi shows he is not the only multinational boss with big ambitions in the country. Indian brands like Fabindia, a purveyor of fancy clothes and crafts, are outnumbered by Western ones such as Levi’s, Starbucks, Zara and BMW. The slums that host a quarter of all India’s city dwellers feel a long way off.

Beyond the mall, Amazon has committed $5bn to establish a presence in the world’s biggest democracy. Alibaba has backed Paytm, a local e-commerce venture, to the tune of $500m. SoftBank, a Japanese investor, has funded a slew of start-ups premised on the potential buying power of India’s middle class. Uber, the world’s biggest ride-hailing firm, has hit the streets. Google, Facebook and Netflix are vying for online eyeballs. IKEA is putting the finishing touches to the first of 25 shops it plans to open over the next seven years. Paul Polman, boss of Unilever, has described India as potentially the consumer giant’s biggest market. Reports put out by management consultants routinely point to 300m-400m Indians in the ranks of the global middle class. HSBC, a bank, recently described nearly 300m Indians as “middle class”, a figure it thinks will rise to 550m by 2025.

But for some of the firms trying to tap this “bird of gold” opportunity, as McKinsey once called it, an awkward truth is making itself felt: a lot of this middle class has little money to spend. There are many rich people in India—but they number in the mere millions. There are a great many more who have risen above the poverty line—but not so far above it that they spend much on anything other than feeding their families. And there is less in between the two than meets the eye.
Missing the mark

Companies that have tried to tap the Indian opportunity have found that returns fell short of the hype. Take e-commerce. The expectation that several hundred million Indians would shop online was what convinced Amazon and local rivals to invest heavily. Industry revenue-growth rates of well over 100% in 2014 and 2015 prompted analysts to forecast $100bn in sales by 2020, around five times today’s total.

That now looks implausible. In 2016, e-commerce sales hardly grew at all. At least 2017 looks a little better, with growth of 25-30%, according to analysts (see chart 1). But that barely exceeds the 20% the industry averages globally. Even after years of enticing customers with heavily discounted wares, perhaps 50m online shoppers are active in India—roughly, the richest 5-10% of the population, says Arya Sen of Jefferies, an investment bank. In dollar terms, growth in Indian e-commerce in 2017 was comparable to a week or so of today’s growth in China. Tellingly, few websites venture beyond English, a language in which perhaps only one in ten are conversant and which is preferred by the economic elite.

India has yet to move the needle for the world’s big tech groups. Apple made 0.7% of its global revenues there in the year to March 2017. Facebook, though it has 241m users in India, probably the most in the world in one country, registered revenues of just $51m in the same period. Google is growing more slowly in India than in the rest of the world. Mobile phones have become popular as their price has tumbled—but most handsets sold are basic devices rather than the smartphones that are ubiquitous elsewhere in the world.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline MT

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1194
  • Country: fo
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #230 on: December 16, 2018, 07:50:11 pm »
We are all doomed!...........in the coming (austerity) financial crash.....All fiat currencies will explode into fragments.
A gigantic debt reset may occur........trillions of people will lose all capital they had(unless some is in gold/platinum).
Enormous bank bail ins, oligarchs will flee to Swizzerland an Kiwiland. 1929 crash will be rewritten as a calm weekend
afternoon in comparison. :-BROKE
 

Offline VK3DRB

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1566
  • Country: au
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #231 on: December 17, 2018, 11:11:32 am »
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.

At least Western governments preach capitalism and practice capitalism.
The Chinese government preaches communism and practices capitalism. The People's Hypocrisy of China.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #232 on: December 17, 2018, 03:36:19 pm »
Blueskull, your comment is unacceptable and also liable to get you in trouble.

The cult of Western hypocrisy is unacceptable and also liable to get the human race in trouble.

At least Western governments preach capitalism and practice capitalism.
The Chinese government preaches communism and practices capitalism. The People's Hypocrisy of China.

We still have human evolution.
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3779
  • Country: fr
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #233 on: December 17, 2018, 03:57:45 pm »
Capitalism and market economy are two different things.
Many (if not most) communist regimes actually use market economy. That doesn't automatically imply capitalism per se, and the link between market economy and capitalism seems obvious at first sight, but it may be more complex than that.

China has a market economy. Is it capitalism? (China shows many signs of capitalism but the question is still not trivial IMO.)

Another frequent misconception when it comes to communism (same as with liberalism actually) is to associate it with economy only. Both doctrines have deeper roots than just economy. Seeing only the economic side of things is a mistake. It makes everything look deeply amoral, whereas both doctrines are actually essentially moral doctrines (which you may not agree with, but that's another point).

Just a thought.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 04:00:17 pm by SiliconWizard »
 
The following users thanked this post: schmitt trigger

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #234 on: December 17, 2018, 05:03:20 pm »
The new doctrine of neoliberalism seems to be the ideology of the 'law and economics movement'. (particularly Coase, et. al)  A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #235 on: December 17, 2018, 05:50:11 pm »
A sort of cult of evaluation that claims to be based on 'efficiency'.

The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
Each side will have its supporters, and haters. How about we just believe in what we believed, and STFU?
Dave & Simon: how about we have a zero political thread policy?
 

Online Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3634
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #236 on: December 17, 2018, 06:51:13 pm »
Steering back to the topic, has anyone seen an effect on electronics industry? Guess it has caused none and that upsets me. I was hoping for a freeze and end of chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box. Come on, dear chinese fellows, show us you have balls. Follow through with your "it is going to he much worse" threat.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Online Mr. Scram

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8170
  • Country: 00
  • Display aficionado
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #237 on: December 17, 2018, 06:52:01 pm »
The so called human right or Western democracy is another cult. Just one favors the living of current generation, vs the other one favors the living of future generations.
Each side will have its supporters, and haters. How about we just believe in what we believed, and STFU?
Dave & Simon: how about we have a zero political thread policy?
You mean suppressing a discussion when it no longer suits you? Typical.  ;D
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #238 on: December 17, 2018, 07:07:01 pm »
chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

Natural selection. Those garbage manufacturers have been phased out.
Huawei is definitely not making garbage. It's a very powerful company that has its army of lawyers and engineers, trying to achieve world dominance on its industry.
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #239 on: December 17, 2018, 07:17:19 pm »
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

The arguments you're making are pretending they had not made any promises but the US assertion is that they did.   And it may turn out to be true.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important. But in the end we need to also reduce the savage inequalities so that fewer people end up angry enough at one another to commit violent acts.

Business models that ignore the need for improvements in that area are not doing us good.

All that said, I actually think one would have to be blind not to see that we've made big improvements in many areas in the last few years, especially in that people are talking with one another, doing business with each other, and finding more often than not that they have more things in common than not.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online SiliconWizard

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3779
  • Country: fr
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #240 on: December 17, 2018, 07:28:38 pm »
I was hoping for a freeze and end of chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

It's entirely OUR responsabiity we import and sell (and buy when we are aware of it) such crap. They are merely taking advantage of our gullibility and greed. We are importing crap, but it's actually pretty tough to get one of our products on the chinese market, and not just for the price tag. Their standards are different and often more stringent than ours on some points. Of course they don't have to comply with these for their export products, so they don't. They often don't really comply with ours either, but that's OUR responsability.

Ironically, the Huawei affair is interesting and not related to this at all. Its direct effect, IMO, is likely to affect the import of good chinese products (with security concerns) much more so than their crap products actually, which will continue to flow in for as long as we let them.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #241 on: December 17, 2018, 07:31:51 pm »
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important.

How come some telecomm servers be used as to violate NPT? It's not like a super computer cluster that can be used to simulate nukes.
IMHO, the total sanction to Iran is the West showing off muscle to anyone who defies them. How can this be democracy?
Democracy to the people, not the the governments, even though they are dictators. That's not true democracy.
That's using democracy as a cover to gain dominance to defiant countries. Nothing but world domination.

From what I know, the most controversial items Huawei sells are speech control devices, such as firewalls/packet filters, which is exactly what is used in China for implementing GFW.
It has nothing to do with arm trading and proliferation. It's merely a tool to keep the dictators in power. Human right is a completely different thing that nukes, don't you agree?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 07:34:39 pm by blueskull »
 

Online BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 6281
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #242 on: December 17, 2018, 07:33:49 pm »
Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

The arguments you're making are pretending they had not made any promises but the US assertion is that they did.   And it may turn out to be true.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important. But in the end we need to also reduce the savage inequalities so that fewer people end up angry enough at one another to commit violent acts.

Business models that ignore the need for improvements in that area are not doing us good.

All that said, I actually think one would have to be blind not to see that we've made big improvements in many areas in the last few years, especially in that people are talking with one another, doing business with each other, and finding more often than not that they have more things in common than not.

The problem in this kind of discussion is, not everyone in this world agree that Iran should be punished, or sanction against Iran is something "sacred".

And also since 70s, almost 2 generations in western world (US & puppies) have been heavily brain washed that Iran or Ayatollah is evil, remember that ?  :-DD And every Iranian leaders , even was elected in democracy, still an evil.

See ? While you based your argument about law, and sanction against Iran, totally understandable as you live and raised in western world.

Again, not everyone on this earth see the same thing as you western US & puppies see.

Intermezzo ...
Q: Does anyone remember since when, Iran and it's elected leaders were and are always "stamped" as evil ?  >:D
A: Since the Iranian people de-thrown the CIA's puppet named Shah Iran.  :-DD
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 07:46:49 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #243 on: December 17, 2018, 10:57:54 pm »
I agree, the Shah of Iran was a really horrible leader.

However the issue which is going to be decided in the court has nothing to do with any of that, it simply is, did Huawei violate their agreement not to transfer the technology.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5082
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #244 on: December 17, 2018, 11:07:45 pm »
Blueskull,

I know you know what I am getting at.

Look, because human people (natural persons) generally want human rights and corporations don't want to be bothered with such things, unless they are profitable. And also because of this web of agreements often require equal rights (as compared to other nation's corporations) be extended to corporations  (a status known as "Most Favored Nation") Also likely since telecommunications was and is the subject of a big and important WTO Treaty, governing the interactions between countries and corporations, which is intentionally human rights agnostic, we now have a growing international milieu where many issues that natural persons ('people') care about are all almost certainly off the table.

Human rights are missing in action in all of the events we see these days. And this is likely no exception.

What I think they will be arguing about is did she break her companies agreement not to transfer the technology.

Blueskull, you're ignoring the fact that they broke what amounted to a promise to not transfer the technology we sold them to Iran.

Also, I think we all would agree that stopping arms proliferation is very important.

How come some telecomm servers be used as to violate NPT? It's not like a super computer cluster that can be used to simulate nukes.
IMHO, the total sanction to Iran is the West showing off muscle to anyone who defies them. How can this be democracy?
Democracy to the people, not the the governments, even though they are dictators. That's not true democracy.
That's using democracy as a cover to gain dominance to defiant countries. Nothing but world domination.

From what I know, the most controversial items Huawei sells are speech control devices, such as firewalls/packet filters, which is exactly what is used in China for implementing GFW.
It has nothing to do with arm trading and proliferation. It's merely a tool to keep the dictators in power. Human right is a completely different thing that nukes, don't you agree?
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 11:50:44 pm by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #245 on: December 17, 2018, 11:14:41 pm »
What I think they will be arguing about is did she break her companies agreement not to transfer the technology.

If she did, she would be doing it in China, where US and CA has no jurisdiction at.

FFS, I don't understand why Chinese government don't extract her if she is that important?

It sounds easy. Shoot the guard, break the GPS tracker, and escort her to Chinese embassy, then get her a diplomatic passport and she's free to go under diplomatic exemption.
 

Online Bud

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3634
  • Country: ca
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #246 on: December 17, 2018, 11:19:57 pm »
chinese garbage import including electronics which falls apart before you pull it out of the shipping box.

Natural selection. Those garbage manufacturers have been phased out.
Huawei is definitely not making garbage. It's a very powerful company that has its army of lawyers and engineers, trying to achieve world dominance on its industry.

I am sure Huawei makes good products, but the scope of this thread is about the electronics industry in general.
Facebook-free life and Rigol-free shack.
 

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #247 on: December 17, 2018, 11:26:52 pm »
I am sure Huawei makes good products, but the scope of this thread is about the electronics industry in general.

For the entire industry? Then nothing will happen. The west doesn't have nearly the balls to cut China out of the loop.
China has a controlled and declining cloning of western IP because there are trade treaties. Without the treaties, China will clone everything and dump them for cheap to non western countries.
That will be huge disaster for the west. Consider the huge booming market of South America, Eastern Europe, Russia, India and Africa.
People will get rich, eventually. For those don't essentially have to play with the west, what's the reason not to buy cheap goods from China if the quality is good enough and the price is cheap enough?
 

Online imo

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2076
  • Country: 00
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #248 on: December 17, 2018, 11:37:44 pm »
If she did, she would be doing it in China, where US and CA has no jurisdiction at.
You are not informed well, it seems..
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction
Almost all employees (US or none-US) working for US companies off shore (ie. in EU, or China), or business partners of US companies, have got somewhere in their contracts or other related documents an information that several US laws have extraterritorial jurisdiction, thus they have to be aware of possible consequences.
 
The following users thanked this post: cdev

Offline blueskull

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 12480
  • Country: cn
  • Power Electronics Guy
Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #249 on: December 17, 2018, 11:41:32 pm »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extraterritorial_jurisdiction

If US can request Chinese citizens working in China to abide by US laws, then I'm pretty sure all anti-communism activists in all countries with diplomatic relation with China should get tagged, and captured upon entry of Chinese boarder if they ever visited China in their entire life.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf