Author Topic: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry  (Read 17819 times)

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Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #300 on: December 20, 2018, 04:29:48 am »
This is the situation in China and India too. I don't know which is worse.

Yes, but not to that extent. In China, we have professional drug smugglers smuggling cloned western drugs from unauthorized Indian pharmacies, at a few percent of the original price.
Recently a Chinese film on this topic was aired, and hit top box office revenue quickly. Usually, such sensitive topics would be censored.
If the film was allowed to air, I expect either Chinese government will set up channels to legally import cloned western drugs from India, or Chinese government is starting to clone western drugs on its own.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 04:32:58 am by blueskull »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #301 on: December 20, 2018, 04:30:06 am »
Large numbers of Americans die of treatable illnesses because of lack of medical care. Even a small medical debt prevents access to the health care system. This is the situation in China and India too. I don't know which is worse.

A LOT of people die because they cant get medical care. They blame it on themselves. This destruction of the poor's self esteem is a particularly insidious form of brainwashing.

In the US its the working poor who fall through the cracks. They make too much to get help but not enough to afford health care.

This guy tried to fix this.


He died a few weeks after this video was taken.
Could the injecting of personal agenda items into random forum discussions perhaps be dialled back a tad?
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #302 on: December 20, 2018, 04:31:48 am »
I was including shootings during confronting.
Those don't appear to be included in the numbers in either case.

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #303 on: December 20, 2018, 04:34:34 am »
In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #304 on: December 20, 2018, 04:36:18 am »
In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.

My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #305 on: December 20, 2018, 04:38:41 am »
My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #306 on: December 20, 2018, 04:50:35 am »
He's pointing out that hundreds of often nonwhite Americans die every year in avoidable confrontations with police where police shoot to kill often when there is no reason to use deadly force, its a serious problem in the US.

And it is different than the whole rest of the world, no other country has this problem.

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #307 on: December 20, 2018, 04:50:44 am »
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
 

Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #308 on: December 20, 2018, 04:52:35 am »
Blueskull, what percentage of convicted Chinese 'criminals' turn out to be innocent on appeal, say when they are exonerated by DNA evidence?

In China we are not allowed to have guns, and armed gang members usually quit resisting pretty quickly after their boss dies.
So the number killed during confronting in China is pretty low.
I'm still not sure what point you're trying to make. This isn't much different from large parts of the world.

My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #309 on: December 20, 2018, 04:56:38 am »

That's exactly how my country is designed to be. It's equal, but not fair. The bribe part is to be eliminated, and I agree with you on that part.

The system stimulates everyone to fight for power, thus exciting productivity.

Even in Mao's time it was in the law that China was led by worker class, which at that time, was considered advanced, compared with farmer class.

It is absolutely not equal. Having NO say or option to say it is the opposite of equal. You seem intent on repeating the parties line in BS but it has no basis in truth. If you 'fight for power' in China you disappear or go to jail.

Unfortunately the ideals of Mao of a peoples state have become far more like what came before except you have replaced the Royalty with a peoples Royalty.
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Offline cdev

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #310 on: December 20, 2018, 04:58:43 am »
My point is to find the data that favors China.
Your focus is on total executed with sentence, which doesn't favor China.
My focus is on total executed with out without sentence, which favors China.
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Its entirely possible that North Korea executes huge numbers of people. For example, a few years ago when they closed down Kwaliso #22 just northeast of Hoeryong, across the Tumengang from China, Some of the prisoners were reportedly transported to Camp 16 near Hwasong (right next to the nuke testing site) but they appear to have been a very small number, they may have starved as many as 30,000 prisoners to death. Selling the food that was supposed to go to them. Now Hoeryong is being groomed to be a foodies paradise. A prisoner would likely have been beaten to death for eating a single apple.

"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline cdev

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« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:10:28 am by cdev »
"What the large print giveth, the small print taketh away."
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #312 on: December 20, 2018, 05:09:41 am »
Blueskull, what percentage of convicted Chinese 'criminals' turn out to be innocent on appeal, say when they are exonerated by DNA evidence?

Many convicted in China are not based on any criminal lab examination.

The number one reason for death sentence with immediate execution is drug trafficking. It doesn't need anymore examination. If boarder control found more than 250grams of coke, or more than 50grams of heroin, or more than a kilo of weed, you are on your way to see the creator.

The second reason for death penalty is murder. Chinese cops are lazy. They don't go out to hunt suspects, unless it is a very high profile case. For most of the time, the suspect either got turned in by himself or captured by the witnesses. With such eye witness evidence and the suspect admitting his crime, what else needs to be examined?

The a few got the needle for economical offenses, mostly smuggling or corruption, with very solid evidence collected over months even years.

There are tricky cases, and there are certainly wrongful execution of death penalty, but only few pops on the TV every a long while.

Side fact: about 15% of death executed immediately sentences are rejected by supreme court. Unless the supreme court rules the suspect really deserves an immediate death, it will reject the sentence from lower level courts. In China, all death sentences with immediate execution must be reexamined by supreme court. Highest local courts used to have the rights to sentence death order, but not anymore since a decade ago.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #313 on: December 20, 2018, 05:09:47 am »
This matter and its context is so complicated I can't even begin to form any kind of synthesis worth sharing. Hence I've been avoiding it so far. But here's a few points I'd like to make.

Law, and moral justice, are different things. It's only the extent to which government tries to maintain an illusion that laws are Just, that varies from country to country. Most don't try very hard. Neither the USA or China have great track records there. Mostly the structure of Law is used to maintain control of the populace, by whatever Elites stand behind the facade of government and law.

In China there's little pretense of Law standing as a separate body for the common good. And the Elites also show themselves directly as the government. Albeit with the usual factional contests.

In the West and the USA it's much more about sustaining pretenses of freedom and democracy, while in reality it's mostly a farce of heavily rigged elections, highly advanced means of manipulating public opinion and illusions, and ensuring that only politicians/officials with robust blackmail handles get elected or appointed to positions of power. As always the Elites run almost everything, but do it with little public awareness. Mostly via various intermediaries such as large corporations, NGOs, UN/EU structures, but also through members acting as political figureheads. Such as the Bush and Clinton criminal families, with the near-totally Elite controlled MSM maintaining their 'face' despite endless uncovered crimes. Plus the usual factional contests. Some significant grouping names being 'deep state', DNC, MIC, Neocons, and the Z-entity.

There's a near infinity of topics related to incompatibilities between law and morality. Regarding Meng Wanzhou, the root issue is the US sanctions on Iran. These are _completely_ immoral and based on lies. So everything in law derived from those sanctions is also moraly void. Of course that has zero effect on what will actually happen.

The whole Middle East mess, with Iran a part of it, has deep origins. Simplifying, US plans to attack multiple Middle Eastern countries arose before 9/11, with the Neocon 'Project for a New American Century', aka PNAC group.
https://journal-neo.org/2014/10/09/the-neoconservative-hit-list-iraq-libya-and-now-syria-a-plan-for-global-u-s-military-supremacy/

Targeted by the PNAC group: Iraq, Syria, Iran and Libya.
Right after 911, those war plans were put into action.

youtube   watch?v=9RC1Mepk_Sw
General Wesley Clark: Wars Were Planned - Seven Countries In Five Years
youtube   watch?v=WGkSNAHqpJM
Gen. Wesley Clark Reveals Middle East Invasion Was Pre-Planned & Iran is NEXT

That post-9/11 target list included Iraq, Syria, Iran, Libya, plus extras Lebanon, Somalia and Sudan.

Result: Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya and Syria suffered massive death and destruction. None of those countries had anything at all to do with 9/11.
Was it about oil? No not really. 'For the oil' is just a convenient cover story. There was a deeper objective. That list just happens to be countries included in Israel's 'Eretz Israel' expansion plans. Countries Israel hopes to destroy in order to subsume them. One can wonder why the USA's actions so closely conform to what Israel wants.

Libya also committed three unforgivable sins in US/Iraeli and Globalist banker eyes- #1 was to propose a gold-backed currency, #2 was Libya nationalizing the foreign oil holdings and using oil sales revenue to provide for the Libyan people, #3 was the Great Man Made River project. That was completed and turning Libya into an irrigated farming major food source in the ME. A success Israel could not allow to stand. So the US bombed the pipelines, pumping stations and even the factories that manufactured the pipes. No more Libyan miracle.

Iran has so far avoided destruction, for only one reason. After the breakup of the Soviet Union Iran bought some black market nukes from an ex-Soviet country. They presumably still have them, and no doubt were able to maintain them. Iran's missiles are pretty good, so they presumably can deliver those nukes if needed. This is why neither Israel or their proxy USA has attacked Iran.
All the US & Israeli administration hysteria about "Iran is about to develop nukes" is bullshit, and a code phrase for something else, quite real, that totally freaks out the US military.

Iran has a civilian nuclear power program, that works. They have their own rich uranium mines. They can refine uranium, and international inspections repeatedly verify they only refine to concentrations suitable for their power reactors. But that's what enrages the US/Israeli military.

Since you see, refining uranium to fuel, at any concentration, produces a waste product - nearly pure U238, aka depleted uranium. This has few uses, but one of them is militarily extremely significant. Munitions made of DU due to the metal's extreme density can penetrate heavy armor. The US & Israeli armies have _never_ fought an opponent who possesses DU weaponry. For all practical purposes they _cannot_ fight such a war. Because they rely on their weapons 'sophistication' and high tech, rather than quantity. But there's no sophistication that defends against a DU round. In such a fight attrition in armor and personnel would be very high. Beyond what the US can sustain, either practically or politically.

And so, Iran's peaceful nuclear program and growing DU stockpile, hence US inability to attack with conventional armor and defeat them easily like Iraq, drives the Neocons and Z-entity types into hysterics. It blocks the Eretz Israel (insane) dream. Meanwhile Iran could glassify both major cities in Israel if poked, so sneak nuclear attacks are fraught too.

That impasse and hysteria underlies everything done and said against Iran by Western powers. The sanctions are just more of the same. To what extent Pres. Trump is aware of this background, or what he gets told by mil. advisers, I have no idea.

But overall, the basis of sanctions against Iran are utter crap and lies. Sure, not a terribly nice government. To a large extent that is the fault of the USA and CIA's messing with Iranian politics for many decades. That just made things worse, and promotes the religious fanatics. Iran used to be an open and secular society.



As for Huawei's phones and coms gear, what I gather is that it's not so much a matter of them containing possible Chinese backdoors (which they may), but that they _don't_ contain the backdoors mandated by the US government. Unlike virtually all other phone manufacturers, that folded to NSA demands. Every now and then there's some MSM production designed to pretend most phones (eg Apple's) do not have backdoors and are immune to government attempts to pry, but it's all bullshit.
Probably Huawei is going to suffer painfully until they agree to comply. Sucks to be them.


Another factor is the ongoing struggle between the Globalist/Leftists/Dems/Deep State, vs Donald Trump. So, Pres Trump was making some significant progress in negotiations with China regarding tariffs and trade imbalance. Naturally, since that's something he's pretty good at.
Suddenly a massive spanner in the works, as Canada kidnaps a Chinese woman under color of law. She's not just well known in China, she's the daughter of a Chinese national hero - the head of Huawei. Who is also tight with the Chinese military and government.

The timing is extraordinarily bad. A disaster really. One can safely assume this was done to make things worse for Pres. Trump.  It certainly looks bad, and will make negotiations terribly difficult. Though he seems to be making the best he can of a 'complicated situation.'

That brings us to the 'impartiality and fairness of the courts.' Give me a break. Anyone who believes such fairy stories has never had anything to do with the legal system, and also has had their fingers in their ears for general news, their whole lives. Please stop watching so much TV, it damages the brain.

Here's a quote from an Australian High Court silk, passed to me by a friend (who was being screwed over by the system, totally unjustly.) "There is no justice in the legal system."
This is absolutely true in Australia (I've experienced it myself too), and even worse in the USA. I see no evidence that Canada is any different.

Her arrest, at this time, was clearly politically motivated. One can guess by which faction. The only useful question now is how to clean up the mess.
Sure, the Canadian courts now have to put on a show of being impartial and following the rule of law. Bully for them, but TOO LATE.

Otoh if the USA withdraws the extradition request, the Canadians would have to drop the case and release her.
The question is whether Pres. Trump can override whatever legal process is under way in the USA. Can he order it dropped? I don't know. Whatever he does, 'the optics' are going to be difficult to optimize. I really don't believe he had anything to do with initiating this.

Meanwhile the Deep State are currently trying everything they can think of to start WWIII:
* Ukraine trying to mine and destroy the Kerch Strait bridge with a British demolition nuke, and getting caught at it.
* Ukraine moving masses of heavy armor and artillery up for an imminent attack on the Donbass.
* Ukraine proposing to make another attempt to run warships through the Kerch Strait.
  (Poroshenko needs a state of emergency, to cancel upcoming elections which he'd very likely lose.)
* Turkey threatening to invade northern Syria - which would result in a 6-way fight between Turkey, Kurds, Syria, ISIS, US troops, and Russian forces. Actually 7, since Israel would wade in too.

Neither Trump nor Putin want WWIII. Conceivably Meng Wanzhou's arrest could have also been intended as a distraction, something to divert Trump's attention from other developments. Or someone wishes the Chinese leadership to be angry and perhaps a bit rash at this time. Or... it serves as a 'poisoner' for public attitude to high profile arrests in general? (Gee, I wonder who might be worried about such things?)

High level strategies typically consider multiple effects, weighing up pros and cons.


Oh btw. Here's what I came to this thread to post:
  http://thesaker.is/the-pentagon-realised-what-it-has-done-the-chinese-put-the-us-army-on-its-knees/
About offshoring of critical industrial capacity.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:23:01 am by TerraHertz »
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #314 on: December 20, 2018, 05:11:52 am »
Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
Let's stick to the subject. War situations governed by entirely different sets of laws are a different subject. The battlefield can't be compared to civilian life. Besides, we're not discussing how many Uighur are killed by direct or indirect action in or outside of the camps in China either. I think neither of us wants to go there.

An execution is also something different than a death during an arrest or raid. While I won't deny the US police forces have some serious issues with the use of violence, those are generally not executions and certainly not deliberate from the perspective of the government. Also, pointing to the US for doing a bad thing doesn't make another bad thing good. The world condemns the extreme violence used by US police forces as well, and it isn't remotely as common in most other countries. It may surprise you that UK cops don't even carry guns. In the entirety of Europe, the total number of people killed by police each year are pretty much negligible.

Even if we assume the US executes more people being second isn't exactly an achievement, and I don't think that assumption is correct either.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 05:27:43 am by Mr. Scram »
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #315 on: December 20, 2018, 05:17:52 am »
If you 'fight for power' in China you disappear or go to jail.

You don't fight the power in China, your fight FOR power (i.e. by getting rich, by being celebrity, by being prestigious, etc.).
This culture starts from kindergarten. Chinese kids are taught to be nice, be smart, and not to get into trouble.
Teachers in China treat smart and well behaving kids well, and trash those kids who fail exams.
The "better kids get more power" thing literally starts with kindergarten, and goes all the way to college graduation, where the treat evolves to monetary benefit when a graduate walks into real life.

Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #316 on: December 20, 2018, 05:20:53 am »
None of the numbers really favour China. China executes a ridiculous amount of people compared to pretty much any other nation.

Think twice. How many Iranian and Iraqi civilians and fighters for their independence the NATO kills every year?

Let along those killed by trigger frenzy cops and DEA agents.
Just because the US does bad things doesn't mean China should? Isn't the point of not having democracy that the elite can do what is right instead of what is popular. Populism is one of the downsides of democracy. Most of the countries in the world have abolished the death penalty.
 

Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #317 on: December 20, 2018, 05:25:58 am »
Just because the US does bad things doesn't mean China should?

We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
Banning drugs is a declaration on political incompatibility to the west and a declaration of absolute power of the government.
From that perspective, Chinese government has a very good reason on executing every drug dealers.
 

Offline TerraHertz

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #318 on: December 20, 2018, 05:36:20 am »
Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.

Ahem... Some Australians understand. I think I do. And am very glad I don't have to live that way.
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Offline blueskull

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #319 on: December 20, 2018, 05:39:49 am »
Besides, we're not discussing how many Uighur are killed by direct or indirect action in or outside of the camps in China either. I think neither of us wants to go there.

Separation is a felony in China that can be sentenced death. Standing up against armed force qualifies shoot on contact.
So a separatist standing up against armed force, with himself armed, get shot. What's wrong with it?

BTW, those Uighurs and Tibetans in China actually have privileges, as long as they accept the leadership of Chinese government.
Chinese government subsidize them with a lot of money if they want to move out and move to a Han ethnic majored city.
Also, they get admitted to high schools and universities with much lower exam threshold than Han ethnic students.
They get special treatment on social welfare, and they are allowed to carry cold weapons in observation of their ethnic tradition.
Even the law favors them in order to prevent riots.

With all benefits given, if you still try to fight your benefactor, you are asking for it.
 

Offline apis

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #320 on: December 20, 2018, 05:51:40 am »
We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
Banning drugs is a declaration on political incompatibility to the west and a declaration of absolute power of the government.
From that perspective, Chinese government has a very good reason on executing every drug dealers.
The Opium Wars was a dick move by the British empire ("the west" consists of different countries), and I can understand a strict policy against drugs. But the death penalty isn't effective at deterring crime and there is always the possibility of incorrect convictions. The government doesn't have to execute anyone, it has the power to take the moral high ground and not act as a murderer itself.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #321 on: December 20, 2018, 05:53:36 am »
You don't fight the power in China, your fight FOR power (i.e. by getting rich, by being celebrity, by being prestigious, etc.).
This culture starts from kindergarten. Chinese kids are taught to be nice, be smart, and not to get into trouble.
Teachers in China treat smart and well behaving kids well, and trash those kids who fail exams.
The "better kids get more power" thing literally starts with kindergarten, and goes all the way to college graduation, where the treat evolves to monetary benefit when a graduate walks into real life.

Again, you are Australian, and you will never understand the fierce competitive culture in China. People literally fight for power. No exception.

You need to open your mind  to what I am saying you are only repeating the parties doctrine of hypocrisy as a defense. Communist Styled Doctrine and Dogma have zero to do with getting ahead and are all about getting the 'people' to believe in the infallibility of the State and towing the party line. If you work hard and kiss the right asses you too will be rewarded.....

The Chinese system does not allow the 'people' to have any power. Your elite of lets just say a few thousand rules 1 billion+ who have no say in how they are ruled and 99.99% of them never will. That is not fair to the 'people' that is flawed to the vast majority.

Trying to make the claim that if you become xyz by doing abc might maybe let you have a say but only if the existing minority deems it allowed to anyone BORN with that sort of right for ALL OF THE PEOPLE of a society makes no sense at all.

I can get on social media, pick up a phone send a letter or email to any politician I like call them an asshole or even ask them pretty please with a cherry on top can you change xyz in China you can not do this at all. If I don't like them I get the option to boot them out of power every few years and have MY SAY in how I want in power. Democracy and basic Freedoms as said before are not perfect but they are better than none.

If you have never read anything by Orwell I strongly suggest you do.

Sorry this has gone way off topic.
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Online BravoV

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #322 on: December 20, 2018, 05:57:37 am »
Funny some of you guys are forgetting the words like "Native American Indian" .. or ... "Aborigin People", enough said.

Online BravoV

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #323 on: December 20, 2018, 06:01:50 am »
We don't fight across the world, and most executed in China are drug dealers.
China has a particular hatred to drugs, mainly because drug war was the first war China lost to the west in modern history, and the beginning of Chinese government's lost of independence.
The Opium Wars was a dick move by the British empire ("the west" consists of different countries), and I can understand a strict policy against drugs. But the death penalty isn't effective at deterring crime and there is always the possibility of incorrect convictions. The government doesn't have to execute anyone, it has the power to take the moral high ground and not act as a murderer itself.

That was the time when China was "gang banged" by 8 nations, and then drugged using gov. backed & imported opium, pillaged & sucked dried for almost half century, until WWII started. Hence these unique entities so called HongKong, Macau, Taiwan exist for reasons.

And suddenly all of this so called developed, advanced and highly moralled nations starting to tell how China should behave accordingly , yeah, right.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2018, 06:04:24 am by BravoV »
 

Online beanflying

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Re: Huawei arrest, US-China relations and effect on electronics industry
« Reply #324 on: December 20, 2018, 06:09:18 am »
Funny some of you guys are forgetting the words like "Native American Indian" .. or ... "Aborigin People", enough said.

Not at all both have been mentioned in this thread. One of my best mates growing up was Koori and was one of the stolen people (apparently sleeping rough on the streets of Melbourne but no one is really sure  :( ). But Australian governments hypocrisy and piss poor behavior of the past is way off topic.
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