Author Topic: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.  (Read 36831 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #75 on: October 25, 2011, 09:25:53 pm »
What would you like to see in future meters? 

Mike Fox
Vice President, Product Development
FLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

Hi Mike
Thanks for registering and joining in the conversation, good to see senior people taking an active interest direct at the "coal face".

Seeing as that you asked:
(in no particular order)
- Big screws in brass inserts, and high quality impact resistant plastics
- Nice big battery and fuse doors
- Big well designed input protection
- Good quality and reliable range switches (your one's are famously very "spongy" and lack good detents)
- Big clear display digits with good contrast (you guys already do very well here in many meters)
- Killer battery life
- Fast instant latching continuity buzzer
- Fast autoranging and updating, with no overshoots.
- For the big expensive meters, we want a sense of confidence, continuous improvement, and that it will last a long time and never drift. This means spare parts availability, maybe "lifetime" warranties, and not changing designs all the time so we can build up confidence in a particular model over time (look at the Fluke 80 series for example).

That'll do for now!

Dave.
 

Offline slipjointedTopic starter

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #76 on: October 25, 2011, 10:04:05 pm »
We clearly fumbled when addressing Slipjointed's issue - no excuses.  Sir, I do want to apologize as well because product support is part of my group.   I am happy to hear that your problem was fully addressed, and hopefully the level of service ultimately exceeded your expectations. 

We have an outstanding group in Boston that supports Extech's customers.  They take pride in their work and the Extech brand.  They're not happy with this incident either and they're using this as an opportunity to review and improve their processes and the resources available to support Extech's customers.

Although some of the criticisms in this thread sting a little (to say the least), the feedback is quite valuable.  We are listening, and very interested in your thoughts and opinions regarding service, quality, value, features & functionality, as well as the details like "screws".  We want to build the meters that you wish you could buy!   What would you like to see in future meters? 

Mike Fox
Vice President, Product Development
FLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

Mike,

FYI I'm still working on the questions you posed to me via email. I'm recovering from a pretty nasty burn today, so I haven't been incredibly motivated.

Dave's points are all very good though.

He brought up an interesting point... you have to upgrade your products often enough for people to stay interested, but not so often that they lose trust. That's a fine line to walk.
« Last Edit: October 25, 2011, 10:06:00 pm by slipjointed »
 

Offline amspire

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #77 on: October 25, 2011, 10:30:47 pm »
I think one of the really big issues with all instrument manufacturers is a small number show real pride in the instruments they design. The rest don't - at least at management level.

The good companies go to the press explaining the advances, they make sure that user manuals and service manuals are available particularly for obsolete models. The particular examples I can think of were HP and General Radio who both released journals describing their latest design ideas. They really were proud of what they were doing and they wanted to tell the world. They want people to fix that 30 year old instrument rather then chuck it into the rubbish.

The majority of companies act like they don't want to know about their non-current models.  Not even a mention on their websites. They basically see their products as disposable, and that is they feeling they give to their customers.

How do you expect a customer to feel good about their product if the manufacturer really doesn't care less?

If I find a company that has information on their website about every product they have ever made, I am extremely impressed.

Richard
 

Uncle Vernon

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #78 on: October 25, 2011, 10:57:02 pm »
Although some of the criticisms in this thread sting a little (to say the least), the feedback is quite valuable.  We are listening, and very interested in your thoughts and opinions regarding service, quality, value, features & functionality, as well as the details like "screws".  We want to build the meters that you wish you could buy!   What would you like to see in future meters? 

Mike Fox
Vice President, Product Development
FLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

Great to see participation and interest from a manufacturer/distributor, Mike. You wont find a better place for feedback from a wide range of your potential users. There are some nubjobs amongst the respondents but you get these anywhere and they aren't that hard to spot. The crowd are hard markers but on average pretty realistic.
Dave's own reviews are spot on and reflect his experience actually using this stuff. I'm sure Dave would be interest in putting up genuinely new and interesting product for review and discussion. Not YAMM products though.

My own feedback on your products over time and in direct comparison to Fluke 80 series.

IP rated meter has a good overall feel, solid with little cabinet flex
Switch detent could be more positive,but hasn't been a problem with partial selection
Display is good with larger than usual and very legible digits
9v battery + backlight is dumb. The short and non adjustable auto switch off makes the backlighting useless in workplace situations
A good carry pouch was included, something Fluke etc could take note of. Don't be tempted to drop these to match a price point

My only other comment is that in wishing to grow the brand you need more than a colour change to differentiate your own badged product from any cheaper offerings.

Cheers

David.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #79 on: October 25, 2011, 11:11:36 pm »
We want to build the meters that you wish you could buy!   What would you like to see in future meters? 

Mike Fox
Vice President, Product Development
FLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

The EX505 looks to was made by the Chinese CEM.
I will send my advices directly to them !! 

Sorry for the sting Mike , but at list it is a honest one. 

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=5285.msg69060#msg69060
 

Offline JuKu

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #80 on: October 26, 2011, 10:49:12 am »
What would you like to see in future meters? 
Hi Mike,

Great question! May I suggest you start a new thread on this? I'm sure the discussion would be interesting enough for that.

To start (and I'll post again to the appropriate thread, no need to answer here and threadjack this discussion), a couple of suggestions:
1) A selection guide table on your web site, with approx. retail price information. Right now, you may have what I'm looking for, but I'll never know, as I'm not going to download twenty data sheets to compare.
2) Right now, I'd like to buy an reasonably priced mains power consumption meter with a very low range. In other words: The device on my table is close to the Energy Star requirement of 0.5W power draw from mains in standby. But is it over or under?
3) A short circuit beeper, with very fast detection and low voltage (so not to open logic gates, a diode between the probes should not beep etc).
http://www.liteplacer.com - The Low Cost DIY Pick and Place Machine
 

Offline ejeffrey

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #81 on: October 26, 2011, 02:25:29 pm »
To re-iterate some of Dave's suggestions that are most important to me, roughly in order of importance.

1) Fast latching continuity.  I want to be able to drag a probe across a set of contacts and see if any of them contact.  Continuity one of the most common things I use a meter for, and a bad continuity meter is worse than useless, it is often misleading.
2) Ban the 9V battery.  AA and AAA batteries are cheaper, higher capacity, and easier to replace with low-discharge NiMH batteries if you prefer them.
3) Machine thread screws for battery _and_ fuse replacement.  I personally don't mind self-tapping plastic screws on the main body if you can replace the fuses from the battery compartment, but any screws I need to remove under normal circumstances should be metal threaded so they don't wear out the threads or strip the head.

One thing that I find really frustrating about brands like extech that do a lot of rebadged OEM products is that they have too many products, and a lot of the "minor" usability features change from model to model in a non-intuitive way.  We all expect that when we get a fancier model we are going to get more counts, better accuracy, and wider ranges, and sometimes bonus features like temperature measurement.  However, you might get a worse continuity detector, slower autoranging,  or loose the picofarad capacitance range.  You may need to look very closely at the data sheets to see this.  With fluke or agilent, I can be fairly confident that the basic operation will be uniform across their product line and generally everything gets better as you go up in price. 
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #82 on: October 26, 2011, 02:55:28 pm »
The 98% of the Chinese multimeter, they have slow sampling rate 2-3 times per second.
My guess  = keeping the cost down.

As long they made such slow products, the west world it will keep a distance from them,
speaking about professional use .
Slow multimeter for students and soft hobbyists, there is hundreds out there.

My own positive suggestion to Extech  would be to improve their speed about replacing any faulty product,
and about the product range that they have , its up to their well payed product managers.
To make any new decisions.



« Last Edit: October 26, 2011, 02:57:05 pm by Kiriakos-GR »
 

Offline Excavatoree

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #83 on: October 26, 2011, 05:59:14 pm »
I'll add my two cents worth.

Brass inserts are good as long as they are done properly.  I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I've seen many cases where inserts are not fixed properly to the plastic or the plastic is too thin, weak or brittle to properly support the insert.  A poorly implemented insert is worse than an average designed self tapping screw into a thick enough boss.   




 

Offline firewalker

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #84 on: October 26, 2011, 06:06:09 pm »
They will have to tweak the prices up...

Alexander.

What would you like to see in future meters? 

Mike Fox
Vice President, Product Development
FLIR - Test and Measurement / EXTECH

Hi Mike
Thanks for registering and joining in the conversation, good to see senior people taking an active interest direct at the "coal face".

Seeing as that you asked:
(in no particular order)
- Big screws in brass inserts, and high quality impact resistant plastics
- Nice big battery and fuse doors
- Big well designed input protection
- Good quality and reliable range switches (your one's are famously very "spongy" and lack good detents)
- Big clear display digits with good contrast (you guys already do very well here in many meters)
- Killer battery life
- Fast instant latching continuity buzzer
- Fast autoranging and updating, with no overshoots.
- For the big expensive meters, we want a sense of confidence, continuous improvement, and that it will last a long time and never drift. This means spare parts availability, maybe "lifetime" warranties, and not changing designs all the time so we can build up confidence in a particular model over time (look at the Fluke 80 series for example).

That'll do for now!

Dave.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #85 on: October 26, 2011, 06:43:08 pm »
They will have to tweak the prices up...

Alexander.

Or to tweak the prices down, the magic word is always : competition 

 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #86 on: October 26, 2011, 08:55:28 pm »
They will have to tweak the prices up...

Of course.
Doesn't mean they should do it on all meters though.
But one really high quality high priced kick-arse meter in their portfolio wouldn't go astray.
At the moment they have nothing that can actively compete against the Fluke 80 series.
Look at Agilent, they have designed the U1272A to do that and marketing are pushing heavy on the comparisons.

Dave.
 

Offline Mike-Extech

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #87 on: October 26, 2011, 09:13:51 pm »
This is great input and it's going straight to the development team. Thank you! 

Keep the suggestions coming!  I appreciate that these details are important.
 

Offline Kiriakos-GR

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #88 on: October 26, 2011, 09:34:52 pm »
Looks like that Mike started to like the EEV stings,  that's a progress.  ;D

Mike do not loose that smile !!  ;)

 




 

Offline firewalker

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #89 on: October 26, 2011, 11:11:29 pm »
They will have to tweak the prices up...

Of course.
Doesn't mean they should do it on all meters though.
But one really high quality high priced kick-arse meter in their portfolio wouldn't go astray.
At the moment they have nothing that can actively compete against the Fluke 80 series.
Look at Agilent, they have designed the U1272A to do that and marketing are pushing heavy on the comparisons.

Dave.

Does ExTech design DMMs from scratch? I mean Agilent did it, but it;s Agilent we are talking about.

I have seen examples of companies that really tried and succeeded to develop kick-arse products and the final user turned the back on them. The sales didn't met the money invested and the company went out of business. At the last moment final user would choose the big name product like Fluke e.t.c.

I am not saying that ExTech shouldn't try or can't made it happen. I am just expressing some thoughts.

Alexander.
Become a realist, stay a dreamer.

 

Offline Lightages

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #90 on: October 27, 2011, 12:26:54 am »
My suggestions, not necessarily in order of importance.

1. AA batteries instead of 9V for better battery life, and accessible with a door attached with brass insert nut and screw.

2. Fuses accessible through the same door or separate with isolation dividers.

3. A backlight that can be have a timeout, AND no timeout selectable.

4. Fast update rate with no overshoot.

5. Relative mode

6. Fast continuity mode, latching and non-latching selectable

7. Big display numerals with a large decimal point.

8. A colour scheme that does not hurt the eyes.

9. Nothing with less than accuracy of 0.1% accuracy ±3 LSD.

10. Low burden voltage on all current ranges

11. Replacement parts available for a minimum 10 years.

12. Spare screws included.

13. Spare fuses included.

And, I would be happy to beta test anything new :)
 

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #91 on: October 27, 2011, 12:55:48 am »
And, I would be happy to beta test anything new :)

Now there's a photo opportunity. "Rugged Extech meter survives the rigors, and meets the needs of Astronomy from remote Chilian Alps"   ;) :) :)
« Last Edit: October 27, 2011, 01:39:44 am by Uncle Vernon »
 

Online IanB

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #92 on: October 27, 2011, 01:21:29 am »
3. A backlight that can be have a timeout, AND no timeout selectable.

6. Fast continuity mode, latching and non-latching selectable
I support all of the listed points in principle, but points 3 and 6 above make me wonder about ease of use? If features are to be user selectable, how should that be done without adding more buttons, switches or complexity to the user interface?

There is possibly a trade-off here, but there is also scope for better design. Sometimes you have to think the designers were clueless. For instance, the backlight issue resonates with me. I just bought a meter in which the backlight stays on for about 3 seconds and then turns off again. There is no time to turn away and position the probes before the backlight has gone out. A sensible design would be that if you press and hold the backlight button the light would stay on permanently. Or perhaps if you press the button a second time while the light is on it stays on. But no, on this meter if you press the button while the light is on it turns it off again. It is even in the manual as a feature!  Just in case three seconds is too long you can turn it off after one second and save the batteries. What were they thinking?

So anyway, the summary is a plea to consider design aspects carefully to support verified use cases, but also not to over complicate things.
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #93 on: October 27, 2011, 02:08:27 am »
So anyway, the summary is a plea to consider design aspects carefully to support verified use cases, but also not to over complicate things.

That can be a big thing.
For an everyday use meter, people want something that just works, without fuss.
There is a lot to be said for the simplicity of the Fluke 87.

Dave.
 

Offline Lightages

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #94 on: October 27, 2011, 04:46:43 am »
Most certainly, no fiddling around is better. The option to change timeout behavior for a backlight could be as simple as holding the backlight button for 3 seconds until it beeps and you know it is set for no timeout. Default would be to turn off after 30 seconds for example.

The same should be done for any meter that has auto-shutdown. It should always have an option to defeat the aut0-shutdown.

The same could be done for the continuity mode behavior. Hold down the "HOLD" or "REL" button for more than 3 seconds to switch to non-latched mode. Default would be latched mode. Non-latched mode can be useful for checking for noisy switches or very intermittent behavior of a connection.
 

Offline pp_314156

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Re: HUGE thumbs down for Extech.
« Reply #95 on: November 20, 2011, 02:38:25 pm »
I have two of their moisture meters, a distance meter, RH10 data logger and probably a few more things. Everything is of very low quality. For example, when I pressed in the plastic tab on the RH10 meter case to slide off the housing, the tab snapped.

After a few weeks of logging, the RH10 would no longer download data because the software was convinced the meter was still logging. Software bugs or firmware bugs? Who knows. I then went to exetech.com to see if I could download a software update, but found their website was down (for the last two days).

The distance meter was a joke. It is clunky and grossly inaccurate, as in off by several feet. A friend had a tiny Fluke laser distance meter that actually agreed with a measuring tape and we used them side by side.

It is a shame that ExTech isn't willing to insist on better engineered products to resell. There are some pretty good Chinese products out there -- my Rigol scope is giving me good service for example. All of the antique equipment I have that was made long ago (HP signal generators, power supplies and frequency standards, SOAR multimeter (Japanese and defunct), Keithley, Racal-Dana etc) still works. Almost every consumer grade electronic item I have is less than 10 years old because most only last two or three years. VOIP phones, Kill-A-att meter, computer motherboards, Extech stuff, ipods, stereos -- all disposable crap.

I am curious to know what is missing from modern consumer products that ensures they die young. Do they skip all the static discharge protection, use capacitors that disintegrate, are there problems with surface mount technologies and no-lead solders, are they allergic to fuses ...?

// end rant //
 

 


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