huge vending machine replaces village shop

[Sionyn]

[Augustus]

I like the design of that card reader thing. Looks like it's not so happy 

[Richard Crowley]

At first, I thought it was a joke. I expected a shop clerk to to appear around the corner and take the selected item off the shelf and hand it through the window.

[Rick Law]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

[SeanB]

Fake brick skinning on the metal siding, and very likely it will do automatic request for restocking. CCTV is nice, but unless they also included the most massive battery ever it will not run through a one day power outage ( village means single power line and the chance of the 1 day outage after a storm) unlike the store with clerk, who will be able to either run a generator or have extra stock around to refill shelving.

Here it would be taken apart like the ATM units are, and probably faster, seeing as it only has shatterproof glass on the front, not armoured multilayer bullet proof glass. The internal coin and bank store is also likely just a thin walled metal box, like every other vending machine.

You still need somebody who drives around to refill the machines, and as they likely will have to restock daily this will be expensive as well, not like a larger truck with multizone temperature control who can run a weekly route to service a lot of small stores. Shelves can only hold a limited stock, ,and unless you get the levels right and use multiple bays for the most common items it will be shunned after a while as it will be perceived as " always out of X every time I go there", unlike a human clerk who can go in the back to get one from bulk storage.

In an area though with reliable power ( riggght, I have a bridge if you believe that a remote part will have reliable grid power) and only a few tourists a week it will probably work, though a park ranger will still be needed around for those things like S&R and flat tyres.

[rx8pilot]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

That is true for me. I am putting a huge effort into automation so that I can have the smallest possible payroll. Small automation projects in my machine shop had huge payback at the expense of letting people go. To live, they needed a wage that was higher than the value of the work they were able to do. I was able to automate the process to run 24hrs/day for the annual salary of just one of them. People can only work 8-10hrs day, they need breaks, sick days, and vacation and they they cost far more per part produced than the automation was able to deliver. Done, goodbye and good luck. To be fair, I gave everyone the opportunity to help plan, design, and build the automation solution and none of them took the challenge. At least a few of them could have moved up and been the ones that worked on all the automation solutions I have been planning. They looked at me with dumbfounded looks waiting for specific instructions on exactly what to do on that day. Fired. The useful work is in figuring it out - not turning the screwdrivers.

Now, I am on the war path of automation. Good luck to all those that spend their time fighting for a higher minimum wage instead of learning a new and useful skill.

[Marco]

Now, I am on the war path of automation. Good luck to all those that spend their time fighting for a higher minimum wage instead of learning a new and useful skill.

Those people are customers though. We've pretty much hit peak consumption, trickle down won't work any more, for the same skill level there will be ever less opportunity.

It's all about getting far enough up on the wealth pyramid that as it's being stretched by the tip you are on the part following the tip, rather than on the widening base going down. Get while the getting is still somewhat good, although don't be surprised when the widening base resorts to it's strength of numbers to resist. Nor begrudge them, we're all just being rational actors.

[c4757p]

Some people are good employers and leave a good impression on their employees for the rest of their lives. Other people are callous assholes and think of employees as tools. Completely understood if you weren't able to pay them anymore due to costs, but your attitude towards the matter makes it plain to everyone here which of the two groups you're in.

[pickle9000]

Realistically automation will knock out more and more jobs. Just look at pick and place, faster, better, cheaper. That means either more money in your pocket or cheaper prices so you can compete. What will happen when google teams up with a car manufacturer and starts producing automated taxi's?

[zapta]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

It's already happening, automation (combiners, ATMs, car washes, smart warehouses,...) self service (gas stations, supermarkets, hardware stores, ...) and offshore outsourcing.

[edavid]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

[Stonent]

They installed a big vending machine similar to that at the apartment complex in which i used to live.  The prices were way too high and nobody bought stuff.  $2 for a coke when the coke machine 50 feet away was $1.50. Most things were at least twice the normal price.

People would rather drive to a gas station to get it.

[lewis]

I think this machine is an excellent idea! Rural life in the UK means that often there is no shop at all, or it has very limited opening hours.

The costs of running a small shop in the UK are not limited to the employee behind the counter, punitive rents and business rates contribute to rural shops closing down all over the place. If this can make villagers' lives more convenient, while generating a return for the inventor, I'm all for it!

Although I bloody well HATE those automatic checkout things in Tescos.

[rx8pilot]

Some people are good employers and leave a good impression on their employees for the rest of their lives. Other people are callous assholes and think of employees as tools. Completely understood if you weren't able to pay them anymore due to costs, but your attitude towards the matter makes it plain to everyone here which of the two groups you're in.

Its more complicated than that. I have many ex-employees that had a great experience. They are the ones that had a great work ethic and made contributions that were on par with the compensation they received. They did work that I could not do and they continuously improved themselves to the point where they deserved to get paid more and have better benefits. These were positive relationships where both the employee AND the company benefit at the same rate. I am schedule flexible, lunch flexible, everything flexible. I am easy going and understanding. About half of the people I have hired learned skills they never thought they could achieve and moved on to bigger things. I have spent many thousands of off-hours time teaching and mentoring my team. I would not say that I am a bad employer because of that.

My previous post is about the slackers that I am MUCH harder on. At first, I give everyone the benefit of the doubt and allow them ample (to a fault) time to learn the job and get up to speed. I offer lots of training and mentoring. I tell them, however, that if I am holding their hand every day, I cannot do my own job and will have very little motivation to pay them more - they have to get the job done without my help. I have an intense work ethic and I expect anyone on my payroll to only be about half of that intensity. You have to be self-motivated and interested in doing a good job. This is not being a asshole boss that sees employees as machines - it business. It is protecting myself and all the productive employees. If I did not fire the slackers and fill their positions with automation, the business would have been a total loss. The more I can automate, the more I can pay the people that are left over, doing work that I cannot do.

People, more than ever, will always be measured by how much work they can do. If you can only do a job that a cheap automation solution can do, I suggest getting a skill that is harder to automate. You will be replaced either by a machine or cheaper outsourcing.

[rx8pilot]

They installed a big vending machine similar to that at the apartment complex in which i used to live.  The prices were way too high and nobody bought stuff.  $2 for a coke when the coke machine 50 feet away was $1.50. Most things were at least twice the normal price.

People would rather drive to a gas station to get it.

Automation cannot re-write basic economics.

[lewis]

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

It's clearly not a myth. Do a thought experiment - raise the minimum wage to $100,000 an hour. No poverty! No homelessness!

[edavid]

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

It's clearly not a myth. Do a thought experiment - raise the minimum wage to $100,000 an hour. No poverty! No homelessness!

OK, it's not a myth in reductio ad absurdum world, only in the real world 

[rx8pilot]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

It will. The world market does not care about local wages - it only cares about the final price. As a business owner, I can only concern myself with the bottom line - its not a charity or a hobby. When minium wage goes up, automation is the solution. Even if people don't lose their jobs, the job growth will almost certainly slow down. For example, I don't have dedicated shipping people but I am planning to buy equipment and software so that I don't have to hire anyone for a lone time. I can spend $30k now and not have to hire 3-4 minimum wagers.

[c4757p]

Some people are good employers and leave a good impression on their employees for the rest of their lives. Other people are callous assholes and think of employees as tools. Completely understood if you weren't able to pay them anymore due to costs, but your attitude towards the matter makes it plain to everyone here which of the two groups you're in.

Its more complicated than that. I have many ex-employees that had a great experience. They are the ones that had a great work ethic and made contributions that were on par with the compensation they received. They did work that I could not do and they continuously improved themselves to the point where they deserved to get paid more and have better benefits. These were positive relationships where both the employee AND the company benefit at the same rate. I am schedule flexible, lunch flexible, everything flexible. I am easy going and understanding. About half of the people I have hired learned skills they never thought they could achieve and moved on to bigger things. I have spent many thousands of off-hours time teaching and mentoring my team. I would not say that I am a bad employer because of that.

If that's true, then certainly not, you do not sound like a bad employer.

My previous post is about the slackers that I am MUCH harder on.

But when you jump right to this group and immediately start talking about how you're happy to be rid of them, without even thinking to mention the former group, one wonders.

[edavid]

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

It will. The world market does not care about local wages - it only cares about the final price. As a business owner, I can only concern myself with the bottom line - its not a charity or a hobby. When minium wage goes up, automation is the solution. Even if people don't lose their jobs, the job growth will almost certainly slow down. For example, I don't have dedicated shipping people but I am planning to buy equipment and software so that I don't have to hire anyone for a lone time. I can spend $30k now and not have to hire 3-4 minimum wagers.

1. So I should believe 1 person's assertion, based on anecdotal evidence, over a metareview of actual economic studies?  Why?

2. And I should also believe that, if not for those pesky minimum wage laws, you would hire 4 additional employees @ $3/hour?  And that would be a good thing?

[nctnico]

People, more than ever, will always be measured by how much work they can do. If you can only do a job that a cheap automation solution can do, I suggest getting a skill that is harder to automate. You will be replaced either by a machine or cheaper outsourcing.

I agree. Too many people are just expecting to get a seat behind a desk or a spot on a factory floor and get paid doing the same until retirement. That world doesn't exist (anymore). You need to learn continuously and improve yourself. Over here there is a huge demand for skilled technical people and even though a lot of people are unemployed the positions cannot be filled.

[rx8pilot]

But when you jump right to this group and immediately start talking about how you're happy to be rid of them, without even thinking to mention the former group, one wonders.

I can understand that. The topic of automation impacts the entry level positions first so that is where I jumped in. In the case of this thread, the automation got rid of store clerks - an entry level job with probably a a high turnover.

In my case, I almost always hate to push a bad employee out the door for the sympathetic reasons. But after the dust settles, it's almost always better. When a small biz like mine has problems with people, it is me that has to pickup the slack and do the work myself at night and on weekends. It does not take too long for that to get old. I am doing their job and signing their paycheck? Hmmmmm.....not good. At some point, I pull the plug and move on.

When I started to realize there were more options than just replacing someone - it is making it harder to keep hiring the entry level people. The jobs that don't have a practical automation option are safe - but still need good, reliable people.

[pickle9000]

When it comes to profit my expectation is that smaller companies do an ok job of taking care of their workers. When it comes to massive companies (like your Walmart types) the bottom is paramount. Just my perception of things.

Should the minimum wage be higher? Yes no question just look at the numbers. How will that change the economy, who knows.

One trend I do see is real people cleaning up after machines, automated blueberry picker goes first does the work of 30 men then 30 men go in and have 2 days work and leave. Same on an automated production line 5000 items made 50 failed during the run are repaired, tossed or recycled whatever is cheapest.

http://www.dol.gov/minwage/minwage-gdp-history.htm

[rx8pilot]

1. So I should believe 1 person's assertion, based on anecdotal evidence, over a metareview of actual economic studies?  Why?

2. And I should also believe that, if not for those pesky minimum wage laws, you would hire 4 additional employees @ $3/hour?  And that would be a good thing?

I will never claim to be an economist - way outside my skill set for sure. My opinion is just that - a single persons view. Take it or leave it, I was not expecting the world to believe my unsupported opinions.

If I put an ad out for $3/hr employees I would receive no responses. That is easy. The laws are trying to match a vague definition of a 'living wage' with the value of a persons time. There is NO correlation at all. The amount and quality of the work determines it's value. If I am required by law to pay someone $20/hr and the output is worth only $15/hr  - the law is pointless. I will outsource it or automate it. I am not in the minority. The goals of the government should not be raising the minimum wage, but creating more productive citizens and a business friendly economy. I have to compete worldwide every day with very smart and motivated competitors. Raising the minimum wage, in my opinion, will not help the people or the businesses.

[lewis]

I am required by law to pay someone $20/hr and the output is worth only $15/hr  - the law is pointless. I will outsource it or automate it.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page.

[CosPhi]

If there was a shop there, he was just closed because people didn't bought enough stuff there. If enough people would have bought enough stuff the store still would be open.

I also grew up in a small town. The shop in the village is just still open because the village found the shop with tax money. How stupid people are ... instead to really buy things in the shop and bring some money to shop ... the people buy things in the city and pay a bit more tax in the village ... also a way to do (Switzerland).

Anyway ... the thing with the automation did not even really start ...

Why, really why still 1000s of people work in an office and put a peace of paper from the left to the right side? Most people in the big office building in our citys like (banks, insurance ...) Why they have more emplyes than just some software guys. There are several jobs with 10000s of good paid jobs ... The world will change in a few years also for them ... like now allready for the local shop worker.

There are allready the first "just online banks" for example. The traditional banks will have to follow ... That's how the world works.

My only guess why we still have so much paper worker is because the people who would have to setup and buy the system would have no job by themself after it is running.

For my job, I'm not so much worry. Exept it was more fun to change a single part ON the prints on older machines instead of the whole print these days ...

[pickle9000]

I am required by law to pay someone $20/hr and the output is worth only $15/hr  - the law is pointless. I will outsource it or automate it.

 

Exactly the point I was trying to make at the top of this page.

The current US minimum wage is 7.25 USD. I'm not in the US but that's nuts, I'm retired now but did have employees and ran my own show.

[CosPhi]

Sadly a lot of these days high automated machines are not so easy use. "High tech thinking" out of engeneerings minds.

And you have to be able to read. Not all people can...

[zapta]

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

So, the economy is settled and if we like our jobs we can keep them?

https://www.cbo.gov/publication/44995

[Zero999]

Fake brick skinning on the metal siding, and very likely it will do automatic request for restocking. CCTV is nice, but unless they also included the most massive battery ever it will not run through a one day power outage ( village means single power line and the chance of the 1 day outage after a storm) unlike the store with clerk, who will be able to either run a generator or have extra stock around to refill shelving.

Here it would be taken apart like the ATM units are, and probably faster, seeing as it only has shatterproof glass on the front, not armoured multilayer bullet proof glass. The internal coin and bank store is also likely just a thin walled metal box, like every other vending machine.

You still need somebody who drives around to refill the machines, and as they likely will have to restock daily this will be expensive as well, not like a larger truck with multizone temperature control who can run a weekly route to service a lot of small stores. Shelves can only hold a limited stock, ,and unless you get the levels right and use multiple bays for the most common items it will be shunned after a while as it will be perceived as " always out of X every time I go there", unlike a human clerk who can go in the back to get one from bulk storage.

In an area though with reliable power ( riggght, I have a bridge if you believe that a remote part will have reliable grid power) and only a few tourists a week it will probably work, though a park ranger will still be needed around for those things like S&R and flat tyres.

This is in the UK not South Africa.

We have reliable power and outages are rare so very few people have backup generators.

The glass doesn't have to be bullet proof because guns are rare.

Any shop needs to have supplies delivered but it also needs someone to server customers as well as replenish the shelves. In this system, the stock can all be loaded at once. It probably also keeps track of sell by dates.

[AF6LJ]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

[zapta]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

Exactly what we did with the chimney sweepers and watchmakers of the past, nothing. It's up to them to adapt and be marketable.

[lewis]

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

They go on welfare. That's one of the problems with a minimum wage.

[lewis]

The future is one where humans need not apply.

But technological development throughout history has always destroyed jobs but created others.

When the motor car came along I'm sure it put a lot of blacksmiths, carriage makers and stablehands out of work.

But no-one could have foreseen the huge (and not so huge) industries created in roadbuilding, vehicle mechanics, oil refinement, bridge-building, traffic wardens, parking meter manufacturers, speed camera maintainers, delivery drivers, traffic officers, white line painters, raw materials miners, automotive electronics designers, race track engineers, and so on, not to mention car manufacturing itself.

Don't be scared of change, for change creates opportunity. Wachowskian dystopia aside, the technological revolution has not produced the society of leisure we all feared/dreamed of for the past 200 years.

[zapta]

Doing what? Filling the vending machines.

Our economy is much more diverse than that.

[Marco]

It's clearly not a myth. Do a thought experiment - raise the minimum wage to $100,000 an hour. No poverty! No homelessness!

Another thought experiment, libertarian paradise where 1 person owns all the land and machines can supply everything he wants.

PS. not saying minimum wage should be raised, that's just taking the low road. The balance between capital and labour is shifting ever more to capital though, this is an inevitable consequence of automation. Eventually most of us won't have any value to capital, subsistence will be more than what we are worth to them.

[zapta]

Another thought experiment, libertarian paradise where 1 person owns all the land and machines can supply everything he wants.

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

[Mechanical Menace]

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

Are Ayn Rand's views still the gold standard? <-Serious question btw.

Also which school of libertarianism would you be answering that for?

[Marco]

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

It was more referring to the rule of law (ie. absolute property rights) being according to the libertarian ideal.

PS. Rothbard really is more the gold standard for Libertarian thought (NAP as natural law, homesteading as a weird blend between necessary axiom and natural law and a whole lot of semantic bull to pretend a functional ethical framework can be build up from that).

[zapta]

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

Are Ayn Rand's views still the gold standard? <-Serious question btw.

To me? No.

My understanding is that she promoted individualism and objectivism.

I care about freedom and it's up to each individual what the do with it, including charity, religion and co-ops if they choose so. It's not my business to tell others how to live their lives.

[Rick Law]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

Come now, did you look at what site that came from?  DOL and you believe that?

[Rick Law]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

Training, school, colleges...

[mtdoc]

The key point is "Can we continue to grow forever?" The obvious answer is no. Some estimates already say we consume more rapidly than the Earth can replenish.

We're way past the point of consuming more rapidly than can be replenished - and we have been at an accelerating pace for the last 200 years or so.

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest. This means that our economies (and hence civilization) requires continual growth. But infinite growth cannot occur on a finite planet. Ultimately we are subject to the laws of physics.

[EEVblog]

Blah! You can't kick it and tilt it when it jams. Then the whole village is screwed.
Must be the idea of the village idiot 

[NoItAint]

Big vending machines are an old idea


You would think by now they'd have drive through ones by now 
Of course, around here, you just go through the self checkout at the supermarket.   No bags though.
Cameras watching and a big new industry to try to prevent shoplifting from the not so honest.

Progress, get use to it 
https://youtu.be/7Pq-S557XQU

[Mechanical Menace]

To me? No.

My understanding is that she promoted individualism and objectivism.

Which is a big part of a lot of people's definition of libertarianism, though only one of many valid but incompatible definitions. Hence the question tbh.

I care about freedom and it's up to each individual what the do with it, including charity, religion and co-ops if they choose so. It's not my business to tell others how to live their lives.

Which again is one valid definition. One reason I personally find labels like "libertarianism" a bit useless. Too vague, too far apart extremes, too many valid but mutually exclusive definitions that can fall under the one label. It can go from the almost communist to the almost fascist, though I've got to admit I've never understood how it could go to either totalitarian extreme...


Thanks for the answer.

[edavid]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest.

I disagree, there's nothing in our economic system that requires any debt at all. 

How about that demographic transition, though?  Will we see more vending machines when there's a shortage of young people?

[zapta]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest. This means that our economies (and hence civilization) requires continual growth. But infinite growth cannot occur on a finite planet. Ultimately we are subject to the laws of physics.

So you say that our civilization be punished for our sins unless if we will change our sinister ways and adopt your way of life. Hmm, it's sound very familiar. Where did I hear it before?

Anyway, make sure to list it here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_dates_predicted_for_apocalyptic_events

[mtdoc]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest.

I disagree, there's nothing in our economic system that requires any debt at all. 

Well, that's unfortunate. This is a topic way outside the scope of this forum, but just a few points. While it may be true that capitalism can exist without debt that is not my point.  My point is that all industrialized economies that currently exist depend on ever increasing amounts of debt.  If you doubt this is true, feel free to point out an example of a country where this is not the case.

The whole topic of debt as it relates to the industrialized economy as it has come to be, is huge.  A simplified explanation can be found here

[mtdoc]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest. This means that our economies (and hence civilization) requires continual growth. But infinite growth cannot occur on a finite planet. Ultimately we are subject to the laws of physics.

So you say that our civilization be punished for our sins unless if we will change our sinister ways and adopt your way of life. Hmm, it's sound very familiar. 

     I said no such thing.  I just stated a few very simple facts - but your response seems to indicate they are threatening to you. If there is a particular point in my post that you disagree with feel free to point it out otherwise this just looks like your usual trolling strawman BS.

[Stigaard]

Just as a comparison when talking about minimum wage, in Denmark the minimum is around $20USD, and currently have an unemployment rate of 6.3% compared to the US of 5.4% (both for April 2015). Holland is 7.0% where they have a minimum wage of ~$10USD.
To make a full comparison requires a lot more factors, however the point is that a $20 minimum wage does not necessarily result in outrageously high unemployment rates.

[mtdoc]

Just as a comparison when talking about minimum wage, in Denmark the minimum is around $20USD, and currently have an unemployment rate of 6.3% compared to the US of 5.4% (both for April 2015). Holland is 7.0% where they have a minimum wage of ~$10USD.
To make a full comparison requires a lot more factors, however the point is that a $20 minimum wage does not necessarily result in outrageously high unemployment rates.

Good points. I do not think there is much, if any correlation between minimum wages and unemployment.  That said, I don't think increasing minimum wages really solves much, though it probably does provide some short term relief. The problems go much deeper than that.

BTW,  official unemployment rates, at least as they are calculated here in the U.S., are close to meaningless IMO since they do not take into account the long term unemployed.  A look at the historical labor force participation rate is more meaningful.  It has been declining for over 15 years.  There's been a very sharp decline in the last 6 years despite the fall in the "unemployment rate" and despite no change  in the minimum wage.

[zapta]

I just stated a few very simple facts - but your response seems to indicate they are threatening to you.

Catastrophic predictions are dime a dozen. Stand in line and take a number.

[mtdoc]

I just stated a few very simple facts - but your response seems to indicate they are threatening to you.

Catastrophic predictions are dime a dozen. Stand in line and take a number.

I made no predictions. Another strawman.

[miguelvp]

Funny thing is that humans are behind that vending machine. Make sure the products are not expired and fill them up.

But if you open a 7-11 next to that machine I will bet the 7-11 will have more revenue just because the machine doesn't offer enough product.

[rx8pilot]

There is no question that the details of making this thing profitable and have some consumer acceptance is nuts. One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

Lots and lots of challenges to make it work.

[zapta]

But if you open a 7-11 next to that machine I will bet the 7-11 will have more revenue just because the machine doesn't offer enough product.

"Electrical engineer Peter Fox invented it after the village shop closed down."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2585171/The-future-village-shop-Giant-VENDING-MACHINE-pub-car-park-dispenses-everyday-essentials-rural-community-lost-local-store.html


http://villagevending.com/


http://villagevending.com/live-stock?machine=00004

[rx8pilot]

well.....I guess it did not displace any jobs.

[lewis]

There is no question that the details of making this thing profitable and have some consumer acceptance is nuts. One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

Lots and lots of challenges to make it work.

Very true, but I think it can be designed to be extremely reliable. I would guess most faults would be due to produce jamming in the dispensing mechanism, a fault which would only put one product out of action and could be corrected by the guy who restocks the machine.

Making it profitable might be difficult, although other vending machines exist which make a profit. For example, my local gym has three vending machines and the gym is literally next to a major supermarket.

I still think it's an absolutely excellent idea.

[Marco]

Our economic system is based on continual expansion of debt which must be paid back with interest. This means that our economies (and hence civilization) requires continual growth.

Fiscal redistribution in the long term and monetization in the short term can keep this in check.

The fact that the long term solution has become an alien thought due to neo-liberalism is unfortunate, the short term solution dominates now. People in government still universally believe that redistribution is only necessary to smooth the waves. Eventually democracy will be where the rock meets the hard place, unfortunately the people who it will put in power probably won't be the brightest so that's going to be a rough transition. This is why TPTB are so desperate for TTP/TTIP in my opinion, they see the rising tide and are trying to put up sandbags. They are only going to make the whole thing messier. Society needs full employment, especially multicultural society.

[Mechanical Menace]

One limit switch will shut your store down until a $150/hr technician is flown in from another city to fix it.

This is about as far from civilisation as you can get on this silly little island. The nearest city probably isn't more than half an hours bus ride away. This has been put there so they don't have to travel a mile to the next town and the shops there. So nobody will have to be flown in lol. And there's absolutely no chance a vending machine technician is going to be paid even half that. That technicians boss might earn $50/hr at a push. When called out at 2 in the morning. When they aren't actually on call. Including any expenses.

[rx8pilot]

This is about as far from civilisation as you can get on this silly little island. The nearest city probably isn't more than half an hours bus ride away. This has been put there so they don't have to travel a mile to the next town and the shops there. So nobody will have to be flown in lol. And there's absolutely no chance a vending machine technician is going to be paid even half that. That technicians boss might earn $50/hr at a push. When called out at 2 in the morning. When they aren't actually on call. Including any expenses.

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment. Recently I had my AC and refrigerator serviced at my house - they were $75/hr and it took them days to fit me in. On the commercial side, my CNC machines are a $175/hr minimum and those are for the very common machines with local service. For a Kitamura CNC, technicians have to be flown in from another city to diagnose the problem and then they have to paid while they wait for a part to arrive from Japan so they can install and test it. Almost nothing in the CNC shop can be repaired in less than two days with traditional service - generally it takes longer. This vending machine will likely have all kinds of unique parts and software all blended together in a way that is probably much more complicated than a CNC mill. $150/hr seems like a very low guess.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up. They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

[Mechanical Menace]

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment.

And all I can say to that is when it comes to skilled work America is much happier to pay for those skills than the UK is. I've known people with much better qualifications and skills than I give up good sounding jobs to do things like night shifts at abattoirs because they paid much, much better. Just so they could afford to live and pay back their student loans at the same time.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up.

It's a vending machine. The only difference between this and one at any train station is it's twice the width. I know for a fact most people who work on them earn at most £15 (about $24) an hour*. The technicians are also the same people who stock them up etc. They aren't as complicated as a CNC machine. I'd go as far to say they aren't as complicated as a dishwasher. My local hackspace manages to keep an ancient one running (full of Arduinos and stuff) no problem too.

They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

In this case the fella who made it does live just up the street


*And this isn't going to be like your case where you get a technician employed by the CNC company so 60%+ of what you pay per hour is that companies mark up. The people who own the vending machines will directly employ those technicians.

[lewis]

It is only a guess, but based on lots and lots of real world experience owning and maintaining unique and complicated pieces of commercial equipment. Recently I had my AC and refrigerator serviced at my house - they were $75/hr and it took them days to fit me in. On the commercial side, my CNC machines are a $175/hr minimum and those are for the very common machines with local service. For a Kitamura CNC, technicians have to be flown in from another city to diagnose the problem and then they have to paid while they wait for a part to arrive from Japan so they can install and test it. Almost nothing in the CNC shop can be repaired in less than two days with traditional service - generally it takes longer. This vending machine will likely have all kinds of unique parts and software all blended together in a way that is probably much more complicated than a CNC mill. $150/hr seems like a very low guess.

I would guess there are VERY VERY few people that are qualified to diagnose and repair a problem on this vending machine and therefore the cost goes up. They probably don't live down the road and they they have to be far more specialized than a typical appliance repair-person. Hopefully the design is forgiving of problems and can keep running with multiple faults.

Servicing CNC machines in the UK is very expensive too. My pick and place machine costs about £1500 for a guy to open the lid and blow out the dust. Reflow oven is similar.

But this is a vending machine, like many millions of others around the world which get serviced economically just fine. Almost ANYONE could be trained to maintain it.

[pickle9000]

Vending machines are "designed for service" on board testing for limit and drop switches, boards on plugs, large easy access covers. Techs carry replacement boards and will often swap out everything and get the pcbs tested back home.

[rx8pilot]

This is a one-off (so far) machine that seems to be far more specialized than the typical drink machine. I doubt the local candy machine tech would know where to start. In my experience, the more obscure a machine is the more it costs to service and the more time it takes. This machine is not exactly common with service centers and toll-free service hotlines.

It's one thing for the designer to service his own machine, and another for it to be deployed in a place where he does not live. The goal of my post was to point out the practical challenges of making this a viable automation solution. Since it appears to target tiny remote towns/villages, it has to be designed and manufactured very well. At some point it is going to start smashing eggs or get a machine stopping error that will need  help. This thing has much more motion control than a 3 axis CNC. There is really not much to a CNC, it is just intimidating because its huge and can kill you.

Also, companies charge 3x-4x the hourly rate of the technician. When I am paying $175/hr for service, I know for a fact that he is only making $30/hr because he told me - nearly 6x! Non-factory freelancers can be found for $100/hr but it voids any warranty and they will possibly refuse even paid service if the machine has been "tampered" with. Liability I guess. 

When this thing breaks, call the local appliance/vending machine repair guy and see how far you get.

[AF6LJ]

When the cost of having a sales clerk exceeds the cost of a machine, automation is the way to go.

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

Exactly what we did with the chimney sweepers and watchmakers of the past, nothing. It's up to them to adapt and be marketable.

Well that doesn't always work, besides chimney sweepers and watch maters are still in demand, just not as much. As things are now we here in Southern Kalifornia (California to the rest of the world) are the dumping ground for the country's unemployable. At some point in the future if you don't have some art skill you will not have a job, the software and hardware engineering will all be done by computers and robots. That time is closer than a lot of folk think.

Sooner or later we will have to scrap the old economic paradigm in favor of ether giving away goods and services or paying people to do nothing.
(more than we already do here in the US.)

[AF6LJ]

So I have to ask; What do you do when all the low wage workers are unemployed?

They go on welfare. That's one of the problems with a minimum wage.

The minimum wage issue is a problem, because from the Git-Go it is inflationary.
People on fixed incomes will suffer and within a year or so those who got their raise in the minimum wage will be back where they started economically speaking.

[AF6LJ]

The future is one where humans need not apply.

But technological development throughout history has always destroyed jobs but created others.

When the motor car came along I'm sure it put a lot of blacksmiths, carriage makers and stablehands out of work.

But no-one could have foreseen the huge (and not so huge) industries created in roadbuilding, vehicle mechanics, oil refinement, bridge-building, traffic wardens, parking meter manufacturers, speed camera maintainers, delivery drivers, traffic officers, white line painters, raw materials miners, automotive electronics designers, race track engineers, and so on, not to mention car manufacturing itself.

Don't be scared of change, for change creates opportunity. Wachowskian dystopia aside, the technological revolution has not produced the society of leisure we all feared/dreamed of for the past 200 years.

There is a strong argument to be made for the advancement of technology being more of a ball and chain on the leg of the average worker than even fifty years ago when the American Dream was a house and a small business for every family, now it is just a house you hope will be paid off before you are forced out of work due to age and you will have a chance to reverse montage the house to provide a bit of income in your non-productive years. Yes people still have small businesses, it is just not as common as it use to be. Not here anyway....

[AF6LJ]

Let me guess, that notion of 'libertarian paradise' is something you made up, even though you are not libertarian yourself.

Are Ayn Rand's views still the gold standard? <-Serious question btw.

To me? No.

My understanding is that she promoted individualism and objectivism.

I care about freedom and it's up to each individual what the do with it, including charity, religion and co-ops if they choose so. It's not my business to tell others how to live their lives.

Watch out; you are starting to make too much sense.
/From one Libertarian to another.

[AF6LJ]

I don't know if there is a minimum wage law in the UK.  In the USA, we have a trend going in raising the minimum wage.  So here in the USA, we would expect more automation and less employment as well.

Minimum Wage Mythbusters
http://www.dol.gov/minwage/mythbuster.htm

Myth: Increasing the minimum wage will cause people to lose their jobs.

Not true: A review of 64 studies on minimum wage increases found no discernable effect on employment. Additionally, more than 600 economists, seven of them Nobel Prize winners in economics, have signed onto a letter in support of raising the minimum wage to $10.10 by 2016.

Come now, did you look at what site that came from?  DOL and you believe that?

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

[zapta]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

And is Kalifornia, the unions ask for a special waiver  ;-)

http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-exemption-20150726-story.html#page=1

[Mechanical Menace]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

Here we have a lot of problems with people not getting enough hours to get tax credits etc so end up on the dole. Companies will take people promising 30+ hours then only give people 16ish so they don't have to pay their share of the national insurance and tax for "full time" staff.

[zapta]

Here we have a lot of problems with people not getting enough hours to get tax credits etc so end up on the dole. Companies will take people promising 30+ hours then only give people 16ish so they don't have to pay their share of the national insurance and tax for "full time" staff.

Complain to the geniuses that made 30+ hours disproportionally expensive.

[Deathwish]

It's not just another Vending machine though is it really, what it really is is an indictment of our ever growing insular societies, as such things become more popular and easy to get hold of people become less interested in socializing, look at the internet,it has it's place but it is also creating a generation of people who sit in and play games, abuse each other on facebook etc and ultimately not go out of their door !.

In fact we used to have a mobile shop and chippy where I used to live until some prat complained and so the council stopped them trading. Nice one for the village idiot who complained

[Mechanical Menace]

Complain to the geniuses that made 30+ hours disproportionally expensive.

I don't think £30 per full time employee on minimum wage is that bad. £18.60 if that person only just falls into paying national insurance at 24ish hours a week. You have places like some Mc'Donald's franchises avoiding paying any single staff member a penny more than £154.99 a week to avoid that. Then if someone gets another part time job to make up the slack they are suddenly earning enough to pay NI, so their employers do too, so they lose said jobs...

That isn't the results of any new costs either, it's the results of new loopholes. I'm sorry but while your argument there may be valid in some places in some situations it's not in this one.


And don't get me started on the whole working tax credits thing, those really are just a corporate subsidy disguised as a handout to the worker.

[zapta]

I don't think £30 per full time employee on minimum wage is that bad. £18.60 if that person only just falls into paying national insurance at 24ish hours a week. You have places like some Mc'Donald's franchises avoiding paying any single staff member a penny more than £154.99 a week to avoid that. Then if someone gets another part time job to make up the slack they are suddenly earning enough to pay NI, so their employers do too, so they lose said jobs...

That isn't the results of any new costs either, it's the results of new loopholes. I'm sorry but while your argument there may be valid in some places in some situations it's not in this one.

And don't get me started on the whole working tax credits thing, those really are just a corporate subsidy disguised as a handout to the worker.

People engineer a system that penalizes employment and are then surprised that potential employers include it in their considerations. That's so divorced from reality.

As for this vending machine, chapeau to the engineer/entrepreneur that made it on his own dime. I wish him and his small business well.

[lewis]

People engineer a system that penalizes employment and are then surprised that potential employers include it in their considerations. That's so divorced from reality.

Indeed. Consider also the taxes on employment versus the tax deductibility of buying machinery. Employ 50 workers to hand solder boards and you have to hand over lots of money to the government. Buy a pick and place machine, and you get it knocked off your tax bill. So what's a business gonna do?

As for this vending machine, chapeau to the engineer/entrepreneur that made it on his own dime. I wish him and his small business well.

Agree absolutely totally.

[Mechanical Menace]

People engineer a system that penalizes employment and are then surprised that potential employers include it in their considerations. That's so divorced from reality.

Nah, I'm not surprised at all. Just saying how it's not always due to employing people incurring new costs but sometimes trying to suck up to crony capitalists. It really seems like we unfortunately can never actually get a pro free market balance worked out, everything seems to go too far socialist or corporatist...

As for this vending machine, chapeau to the engineer/entrepreneur that made it on his own dime. I wish him and his small business well.

He'll have had startup and development grants. But as much as it's doomed to failure (in that locale anyway, the reason it managed to go 12 years without a shop is there's not enough call for one in that dying community) I wish him well.

[lewis]

He'll have had startup and development grants.

Maybe, but not necessarily. My business has grown to where it is today without any external funding whatsoever.

But as much as it's doomed to failure (in that locale anyway, the reason it managed to go 12 years without a shop is there's not enough call for one in that dying community) I wish him well.

The shop probably closed down and never re-opened because of punitive business rates, punitive rents, and punitive employee costs. It's happening everywhere outside of London, not just in 'dying' communities.

[McBryce]

I doubt he designed it at all. Holland and Belgium are full of these kind of huge vending machines, some even cook/heat the food for you first. It may be new to the UK, but I'd say he just imported a commercially available device from somewhere else in Europe.

McBryce.

[Mechanical Menace]

He'll have had startup and development grants.

Maybe, but not necessarily. My business has grown to where it is today without any external funding whatsoever.

Have any employees? Do any of them claim working tax credits? Help towards child care? I bet you anything there's something the government funded that you wouldn't be able to have set up your business and keep it going without.

The shop probably closed down and never re-opened because of punitive business rates, punitive rents, and punitive employee costs. It's happening everywhere outside of London, not just in 'dying' communities.

Not including supermarkets there're 6 shops within 10 minutes walk from me. So no it's not happening everywhere at all. What does where I live not have in common with Clifton? A population worth mentioning. The town Clifton is a part of only has a population of 7-8k. It's rapidly falling and ageing population was only 2000 people in 1999. So it's not "dying" it is dying. In fact it's brain dead and on life support. Places like that should give up and die already. If they did it on their own money fair enough but they get a lot more tax payer money per person in than they put in.

If rates are punitive move town. If rent is punitive find another location, or do you think private landlords shouldn't be allowed to charge what they can for their properties? If employee costs are punitive they can't afford their staff so their business isn't viable should be going bust anyway.

[lewis]

Have any employees? Do any of them claim working tax credits? Help towards child care? I bet you anything there's something the government funded that you wouldn't be able to have set up your business and keep it going without.

You're twisting my words. Nobody has given or lent me any money to start or grow the business. We've had no (quote) startup and development grants (unquote).

But to elaborate your point, which is not the one I was making: The 'government' has provided education and security for me and my employees, but it also takes a vast amount of money from me and them via taxation, and will continue to do so at ever increasing rates for the rest of my life.

Not including supermarkets there're 6 shops within 10 minutes walk from me. So no it's not happening everywhere at all. What does where I live not have in common with Clifton? A population worth mentioning. The town Clifton is a part of only has a population of 7-8k. It's rapidly falling and ageing population was only 2000 people in 1999. So it's not "dying" it is dying. In fact it's brain dead and on life support. Places like that should give up and die already. If they did it on their own money fair enough but they get a lot more tax payer money per person in than they put in.

If rates are punitive move town. If rent is punitive find another location, or do you think private landlords shouldn't be allowed to charge what they can for their properties? If employee costs are punitive they can't afford their staff so their business isn't viable should be going bust anyway.

Yes, we should all move to London.

Google "Death of the High Street", it's happening throughout the UK for a huge variety of reasons that should be well known to you. And in a free market, it should happen (don't get me wrong, I'm not sentimental about it).#

The idea of this machine is to provide a service to a community where no other service is viable. And if it works, I'm all for it. Got to be better than executing the villagers.

[AF6LJ]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

And is Kalifornia, the unions ask for a special waiver  ;-)

http://www.latimes.com/local/cityhall/la-me-union-exemption-20150726-story.html#page=1

Indeed they do, so much for equal treatment under the law...
A very smart man once said, "The day the people of this country realize they can legislate their own paycheck; that will spell the end of America.".
Thank You Chuck Harder.

[AF6LJ]

Funny in Washington state where the new minimum wage went into effect the workers are asking for fewer hours to retain their welfare benefits.

Here we have a lot of problems with people not getting enough hours to get tax credits etc so end up on the dole. Companies will take people promising 30+ hours then only give people 16ish so they don't have to pay their share of the national insurance and tax for "full time" staff.

You know what the answer to that is, I am not going to get into it here, people deserve the government they will put up with, including all its problems.

[Mechanical Menace]

and will continue to do so at ever increasing rates for the rest of my life.

Unless you're upper middle class upwards, in which case your tax burden is on the down and down percentage wise and has been since the 80s. Your business rates will be lower now than then too.

Yes, we should all move to London.

Why should I, I like Yorkshire very very much.

The death of the high street is a overhyped myth. City centre retail is dying, but the same shops are on retail estates not far from them. Local "town streets" are doing better than ever. It's not like the high street has anything that isn't at the least a massive franchise on it anyway so that isn't relevant to uncivilised backwaters not having a shop

The idea of this machine is to provide a service to a community where no other service is viable. And if it works, I'm all for it. Got to be better than executing the villagers.

I wouldn't suggest executing them, was just pointing out what you just did, that the reason there's no shop there is because the community couldn't support it, not like you claimed and they were taxed out of existence.

[lewis]

Unless you're upper middle class upwards

Unfortunately not, working class through and through.

Yorkshire

uncivilised backwaters

 

the reason there's no shop there is because the community couldn't support it, not like you claimed and they were taxed out of existence.

Being taxed out of existence is one of the reasons why the community couldn't support it.

[Mechanical Menace]

Yorkshire

uncivilised backwaters

 

I've never owned a whippet, flat cap, nor a kestrel. We have a world class ballet company and symphony close by, inside water closets and wall to wall carpet unless we've nice wood floors. This isn't South Yorkshire

the reason there's no shop there is because the community couldn't support it, not like you claimed and they were taxed out of existence.

Being taxed out of existence is one of the reasons why the community couldn't support it.

Maybe, probably not. And communities like that which receive more tax money than they pay so they can pretend it's Victorian times without the filth, child prostitutes*, and us working class folkes about can't really complain about high taxes.


*Actually scratch that if any Radio DJs live there.

[lewis]

I've never owned a whippet, flat cap, nor a kestrel. We have a world class ballet company and symphony close by, inside water closets and wall to wall carpet unless we've nice wood floors. This isn't South Yorkshire

Ha! Made me smile. [I can't talk anyway, I'm in Norfolk  ]

[zapta]

I doubt he designed it at all. Holland and Belgium are full of these kind of huge vending machines, some even cook/heat the food for you first. It may be new to the UK, but I'd say he just imported a commercially available device from somewhere else in Europe.

McBryce.

That's not what the guy says:





Edit: after watching the above video, Youtube suggested this one:

[McBryce]

People claim anything is "their design" even if they only designed a tiny part of it. I still think he bought an existing machine and his part of the "design" was the dodgy looking shop and brick wallpaper.

Bryce.

[kwass]

Big vending machines are an old idea

You bet! I used to go to this place for lunch when I was a kid, it was around until 1991.

http://exhibitions.nypl.org/lunchhour/exhibits/show/lunchhour/automat