General > General Technical Chat
I feel.... Dirty...
tooki:
--- Quote from: artag on April 30, 2023, 07:23:19 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on April 29, 2023, 10:31:20 pm ---
I guess that argument just makes NO sense to me whatsoever. Every IDE attempts to "do everything" because that's literally the point of an integrated development environment. First-party IDEs (MPLAB X, Cube MX, Keil, etc.) do all the same things, sometimes more...
Are you sure you're not actually annoyed at Visual Studio Code, which merely happens to be the most common host for PlatformIO? But you can use it in other IDEs, or use just the CLI version.
--- End quote ---
Platform i/o makes it worse by trying to do everything for every processor. This might be a strength but usually isn't. Proprietary IDEs are sometimes saved
by at least limiting the damage to one.
I don't need an IDE, I've got Unix. The entire OS is an IDE and does indeed do everything - and does it well. Not in a half-arsed way like most job-specific IDEs. That makes even less of a use-case for platform i/o : it fails to have processor-specific goodness by being all-encompassing and fails to be universal by trying to integrate less and poorer tools than you need. But that's not why I dislike it as that applies to many IDEs.
Yes, the default editor doesn't help. It's possibly not as bad as the previous default editor.
What I don't like about the 'you can change the editor' argument is that you tend to have to dig in pretty deep to change it. By which time you've learnt the wretched thing. Idk if this is the case for PIO, as I said, I was put off it by my first encounter and have avoided it like the plague ever since.
--- End quote ---
Forgive me for being blunt, but this reply kinda tells me that you don’t know what you’re talking about.
UNIX isn’t an IDE. It can be used as a development environment, but it’s not integrated. The entire UNIX philosophy of small, single-purpose utilities is the exact antithesis of “integrated”.
“Default editor”? PlatformIO has no default editor. The editor is whatever you choose to use, be it a command line tool, a standalone graphical text editor, or the editor in whatever IDE you choose to install PlatformIO into (if you do that).
As for “trying to do everything for every processor” — what the hell are you talking about?
artag:
--- Quote from: tooki on May 01, 2023, 09:27:08 am ---
UNIX isn’t an IDE. It can be used as a development environment, but it’s not integrated. The entire UNIX philosophy of small, single-purpose utilities is the exact antithesis of “integrated”.
--- End quote ---
You're completely wrong and have entirely missed the point of Unix.
The intention of the Unix philosophy, to have those small, single-purpose utilities that are good at just one thing is that the shell and OS integrate them. As I said, the whole system is an IDE. It doesn't need half-assed partial IDEs to live inside it. Just more utilitiies that fit the integration.
What's an IDE ? An Integrated Development Environment. An enviroinment in which to develop <something> providing all the tools with which to do that and, in a well-designed system, the ability to add tools in a way that integrates into the existing system.
tooki:
--- Quote from: artag on May 01, 2023, 01:04:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: tooki on May 01, 2023, 09:27:08 am ---
UNIX isn’t an IDE. It can be used as a development environment, but it’s not integrated. The entire UNIX philosophy of small, single-purpose utilities is the exact antithesis of “integrated”.
--- End quote ---
You're completely wrong and have entirely missed the point of Unix.
The intention of the Unix philosophy, to have those small, single-purpose utilities that are good at just one thing is that the shell and OS integrate them. As I said, the whole system is an IDE. It doesn't need half-assed partial IDEs to live inside it. Just more utilitiies that fit the integration.
--- End quote ---
No, I am not wrong. And I am well aware of the UNIX philosophy.
You’ve just got a rather inventive idea of what the word “integrate” means.
UNIX shells don’t integrate anything.
You, the user, are left to integrate everything yourself. That’s a VERY different thing. It’s very powerful, but it’s all on the user to daisy-chain things together, use scripts and macros to make them work together in complex ways. The utilities aren’t inherently aware of each other or of the context, which is what the integration in IDEs does.
tooki:
--- Quote from: artag on May 01, 2023, 01:04:11 pm ---What's an IDE ? An Integrated Development Environment. An enviroinment in which to develop <something> providing all the tools with which to do that and, in a well-designed system, the ability to add tools in a way that integrates into the existing system.
--- End quote ---
Yes. But saying UNIX is an IDE is really a stretch. It’s not integrated, it’s not specifically a development system. It’s an uncommitted blank slate. The fact that you can use it as your development environment doesn’t mean it is an IDE!
You aren’t entirely alone in your belief. But that doesn’t mean you’re right (nor conclusively mean you’re wrong!), and it certainly doesn’t make it a widely accepted notion.
Further reading:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integrated_development_environment
https://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/
artag:
It has all the tools - pipes, shared memory etc. to integrate with.
Many tasks - those that lend themselves to piping or filtering - are already done that way, and new tools tend to be built along the same lines.
Imported tools require it to be done, it's true : but there are easy tools to do that (make and configurable filters such as awk)
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