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General => General Technical Chat => Topic started by: strangersound on April 06, 2019, 04:29:47 am

Title: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: strangersound on April 06, 2019, 04:29:47 am
...it lasted 3 weeks. :D

I was working on this laptop that hadn't even really had any use, but this thing just would not run and I could not figure it out. I may not get paid for it, but I know wtf I'm doing. It had Windows 8 (the original one), which is so absurd I still can't believe it. I'm one of these people that still has work machines that are offline and run XP, because it's the only MS OS that ever worked (besides NT/2000). But they've lost their minds. They ate the Apple and now we're all screwed.

Anyway, this HP laptop should have just gone right in the trash, but I could at least disable secure boot and boot from the cd-rom drive, so I just kept going in circles and eventually it just started working. I've never seen anything like it. I managed to finally get it to 8.1, which some people seemed to have claimed was an improvement. Yeah, ok. Sure. No.  :box: :scared: :bullshit:

So me and my assistant took a vote and we voted to nuke Windows. It's now running Linux Mint 18. I did 13 first and it was lightning fast responsive, but I decided to go long term support. I figured the running footprint should be similar. I didn't run any benchmarks, but it doesn't seem quite as snappy as 13 did, but it's been running well. :)

I have another HP with Windows 10 and when I first built it...(My kids generate a lot of e-waste. I try to recycle it building new products from multiple broken ones.)...but this thing is truly dickered. I still never got it to boot from the cd-rom drive. I can only assume reflashing the bios is the way to get around it, but I don't have time for that. And I need a damn W10 machine just to run Chrome (and 256 gigs of ram). So I just tweaked it best I could and resigned to using it. I would have put Linux on it, but it wouldn't let me. Secure boot...for who, Windows? ;)  |O :horse:

Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 06, 2019, 09:02:31 am
I am still running Win XP Pro SP3 on my old machines and Linux Mint on my newer machines. There is no way I am installing any newer versions of Windows. No way.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Ampera on April 06, 2019, 01:16:40 pm
Oh boy! A chance to talk about how interesting my choice in operating systems is to everyone!

I'll not start the intra-Linux distro flame war just yet, ya blaspheming Mint user >:D

I can deal with Windows, but my issue with it is that I was never in a position to learn about it, and to do all sorts of neat things I could with Linux. I couldn't even reliably do something as simple in Linux as repairing or reinstalling the bootloader. I ran Windows 2016 soon after it came out, replacing my Windows 7 install, and I lived happily enough with it for a while. Even though Nvidia's drivers broke every month or so and had to be reinstalled, it had constant memory leak issues, I really wanted to radically switch up the UI, and (I could go on forever), I was still able to use it without my eyes exploding out of my head pressure point style.

Now for the rest of it. Why the hell are you trying to boot from the optical drive in 2019? I admit I hung onto optical media so much longer than others, and still use it on my older machines (along with floppies), but get some damn flash sticks, I bet you they'll work a whole lot better. I have a laptop that has a ??? optical drive, that can't be booted from, but I was able to Linux it real good with a flash stick.

Arch Linux by the way.  >:D
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Rerouter on April 06, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Running windows 7, And left feeling literally trapped against a wall seeing as the curtain is soon to fall on it aswell.

Have not yet gone to linux, may have to, defiantly not touching windows 10 if I can help it.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: legacy on April 06, 2019, 01:32:16 pm
Quote from: soldar on April 06, 2019, 09:02:31 am
I am still running Win XP Pro SP3 on my old machines and Linux Mint on my newer machines. There is no way I am installing any newer versions of Windows. No way.

me, too: Win XP SP3 + MobaXterm (professional) on IBM X61S.
And I have recently ordered another IBM X61S.
Linux is the second choice.

I have a lot of professionals programs (e.g. Avocet pro, Metroworks) that do not run on anything > WinXP (since they were designed for NT-v4). I dunno why, but win10 doesn't help, and causes problems.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Mr. Scram on April 06, 2019, 02:23:43 pm
Quote from: Rerouter on April 06, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Running windows 7, And left feeling literally trapped against a wall seeing as the curtain is soon to fall on it aswell.

Have not yet gone to linux, may have to, defiantly not touching windows 10 if I can help it.
Windows 10 is going to happen. Sticking to older versions will only save you another handful of years. Move to another OS or learn to deal with Windows 10.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Vgkid on April 06, 2019, 02:42:44 pm
I went from using Windows Vista for 10 years, to W10. ... Never ran into any real problems with either one  :-//
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: madires on April 06, 2019, 03:02:25 pm
If you have to run old Windows versions for some legacy tools I'd suggest to create VMs for convenience and security reasons. VirtualBox is free and does the job. It offers also some nice features hidden away in the CLI commands, like running a VM with a different date and time.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: legacy on April 06, 2019, 03:07:51 pm
Quote from: madires on April 06, 2019, 03:02:25 pm
VirtualBox is free and does the job. It offers also some nice features hidden away in the CLI commands, like running a VM with a different date and time.

VirtualBox has a great problem with USB devices, such as programming cables.
This is also a GREAT problem when your applications require a license key on the USB port, or on the printer port.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: coromonadalix on April 06, 2019, 03:21:19 pm
Up to win 8 i had no problems with  examples : ftdi interfaces, programmers, arduinos,  avr programmers, stlink  etc ...

With win 8.1  the signed drivers requirement began to be a pain in the buut

With win10    everything seems to be working fine,  old xp era softwares work fine,  my only glitch is with an tl866 programmer,  i cant update it in a x64 os, if i do, it mess the programmer vid/pid, and windows doesnt see it afterwads, must be recovered in a 32 bit os.

Had build 2 old windows vm,  1x win 98 and 1x win 95 for very old stuff :)
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: legacy on April 06, 2019, 03:58:33 pm
Quote from: coromonadalix on April 06, 2019, 03:21:19 pm
ftdi interfaces

FTDI is one simple thing, but cables like the Xilinx programming cables are ... a completely different thing.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: madires on April 06, 2019, 05:17:16 pm
Quote from: legacy on April 06, 2019, 03:07:51 pm
VirtualBox has a great problem with USB devices, such as programming cables.

https://forums.virtualbox.org/viewtopic.php?f=35&t=82639
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 06, 2019, 05:23:56 pm
Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 06, 2019, 02:23:43 pm
Quote from: Rerouter on April 06, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Running windows 7, And left feeling literally trapped against a wall seeing as the curtain is soon to fall on it aswell.

Have not yet gone to linux, may have to, defiantly not touching windows 10 if I can help it.
Windows 10 is going to happen. Sticking to older versions will only save you another handful of years. Move to another OS or learn to deal with Windows 10.


Wanna bet?

I can keep using 7 for another 10 years if need be, I only moved up to it from XP 3 years ago so it's still shiny and new to me. More and more of my machines are on Linux these days but I still have one XP laptop I use for old stuff and yes it connects to the internet although I don't surf on it. Win10 is most definitely NOT going to happen, Windows is dead to me, as far as I'm concerned nothing after 7 exists. If I ever have a machine that lacks drivers for 7 it will be Linux or MacOS.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 06, 2019, 07:04:33 pm
Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2019, 05:23:56 pm
Quote from: Mr. Scram on April 06, 2019, 02:23:43 pm
Quote from: Rerouter on April 06, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Running windows 7, And left feeling literally trapped against a wall seeing as the curtain is soon to fall on it aswell.

Have not yet gone to linux, may have to, defiantly not touching windows 10 if I can help it.
Windows 10 is going to happen. Sticking to older versions will only save you another handful of years. Move to another OS or learn to deal with Windows 10.


Wanna bet?

I can keep using 7 for another 10 years if need be, I only moved up to it from XP 3 years ago so it's still shiny and new to me. More and more of my machines are on Linux these days but I still have one XP laptop I use for old stuff and yes it connects to the internet although I don't surf on it. Win10 is most definitely NOT going to happen, Windows is dead to me, as far as I'm concerned nothing after 7 exists. If I ever have a machine that lacks drivers for 7 it will be Linux or MacOS.
 

Well, another one who is "defiantly" not touching Windows 10. :)

But I would think your "Linux or MacOS" is covered and included and totally comprehended in "another OS" so I can't see any contradiction.

You can add me to the ones who are defiantly not touching Windows 10.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 06, 2019, 09:29:12 pm
Well another OS is one option, but given I have a PC with Win 3.1 on it, and one with Win95, and one with Win2k, I even have a machine with CP/M on it and all of these still work, I see no reason to think that I can't fire up Win7 20 years from now if I really desire to do so. Software doesn't wear out, even long after any compatible original hardware is gone there is still the option of a VM.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 07, 2019, 01:17:47 am
Quote from: Rerouter on April 06, 2019, 01:23:11 pm
Running windows 7, And left feeling literally trapped against a wall seeing as the curtain is soon to fall on it aswell.

Have not yet gone to linux, may have to, defiantly not touching windows 10 if I can help it.

Take the leap now. I started learning Linux seriously about a year ago. It didn't take me long at all to get comfortable with it, especially since I already knew DOS command line and batch scripting, it wasn't such a huge leap.

About a month or so of playing around, I now run Fedora Workstation on my main machine. Most Windows applications that I use run fine under WINE but I have a Windows 7 VM I can spin up if I really get stuck. In some cases, I actually prefer the Linux versions of applications.

It's like a breath of fresh air after you become comfortable with it. I'm forced to use Windows 10 at work and almost every day I have a negative experience with it. Windows 10 is just horrible.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Rerouter on April 07, 2019, 01:33:16 am
Halcyon, any chance of a run through of what you would recommend starting with, and any likely issues one might run into, there are quite a few flavors of linux,
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 07, 2019, 01:58:22 am
The nice thing about Linux is you can download a live image that you can burn to a DVD and boot up from that to try it out. Ubuntu is as close to a de-facto standard as there is for desktop Linux. Personally I like Ubuntu Mate, but Lubuntu is nice for low end machines and Xubuntu is a nice compromise. These differences are just in the default window manager, you can actually convert from one to another as you please. Linux Mint is another popular distro well suited to people coming from Windows, it has a Windows-y feel to it without the bs. I'd recommend trying a few distros before you settle on anything, and if you have a spare machine or an extra hard drive to pop in that's a good way to get your feet wet with a less painfully slow experience than a live DVD. You can even load your existing Windows machine into a VM and boot it up with Virtualbox within Linux.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Ampera on April 07, 2019, 02:39:42 am
Quote from: Rerouter on April 07, 2019, 01:33:16 am
Halcyon, any chance of a run through of what you would recommend starting with, and any likely issues one might run into, there are quite a few flavors of linux,

I can say how I myself started with Linux. After bouncing around distros for a bit, I saw Arch Linux, and got a bit enamored with it. It seemed like the best way to learn what Linux was about, and the ins and outs of how to use it, and today, I know considerably more about Linux than Windows.

I will say this, Linux isn't going to be as easy as Windows, there's learning to be done, and the Arch Wiki is pretty much the best resource for doing that. Even though it might be more effort, trust me, the results are amazing, and you will genuinely gain a life skill, like I have.

The main reason why I suggest Arch Linux is that it requires you to learn about the system you use, but once you have, all of the things that people complain about Linux, the problems and roadblocks people complain about become easy to solve, and eventually rare and unnoticeable..
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 07, 2019, 04:11:23 am
If you want to geek out and learn all the ins and outs of Linux then sure, something like Arch is worth looking at. If you're like most people though, view the computer as a tool and just want to use it to get stuff done then a distro like that is a recipe for frustration. One of the polished, tested, widely used desktop distros that pretty much just works out of the box is a much more appropriate choice.

Look at it this way, suggesting Arch for someone who asks what kind of car to get is a bit like suggesting they go hit the junkyards and buy a bunch of parts to build their own custom car. Yeah they'll learn a lot about cars in the process but if they just want transportation they're going to get frustrated turned off to the whole thing.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 07, 2019, 04:53:57 am
Quote from: Rerouter on April 07, 2019, 01:33:16 am
Halcyon, any chance of a run through of what you would recommend starting with, and any likely issues one might run into, there are quite a few flavors of linux,

One thing I've learnt is that everyone has their personal preference of Linux flavour and window manager. But there is no "right or wrong" or "better or worse", just different. It comes down to your specific tastes and purpose.

Linux Mint and Ubuntu are pretty good for beginners, but they aren't without their problems on certain hardware. GNOME (the default window manager on Ubuntu) is quite resource intensive and can be quite sluggish. I've also tried CentOS (which is based on Red Hat Linux). I didn't mind it but it needed a bit of tinkering to get working properly on my specific hardware.

I now run Fedora 29 Workstation with the Xfce window manager on all my desktop machines. I find it very stable, very easy to use and very customisable.

Here is what I would do to get started:

1. Forget what you know about Windows and remember "everything is a file" in Linux. That means whether you're communicating with a disk, a physical port, or a virtual "something", you're essentially dealing with a "file" which exists on the system.

2. Download a flavour of Linux. For this I recommend Fedora Workstation (https://getfedora.org/en_GB/workstation/). I personally really like it (coming from a Windows power user perspective). Write that ISO to a DVD or a USB drive.

3. Boot from said disc/disk and install. It's all very straight forward.

4. Once you boot into Linux for the first time, install a window manager which you like. By default, Fedora Workstation comes with GNOME installed. I find it slow and too simplistic. To install Xfce (for example), follow these instructions (https://www.hiroom2.com/2018/11/27/fedora-29-xfce-en/). MATE is also very popular.

5. Start playing. Familiarise yourself with the interface and some basic Linux commands (https://linoxide.com/guide/linux-cheat-sheet.png). If you want to run Windows programs, install WINE. If you want to run a VM, install something like Virtual Box.

6. If you're not sure, ask! These is a wealth of knowledge in this forum and people like Ampera live and breathe Linux every day. Better yet, join the EEVBlog IRC channel on irc.austnet.org #EEVBlog and chat to us live!
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: electromotive on April 07, 2019, 05:20:36 am
MacOS for everything in the house.....

Windows 10 for everything in the lab....

I'd run MacOS exclusively if it weren't for a couple of pieces of software...
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 07, 2019, 06:28:38 am
Quote from: electromotive on April 07, 2019, 05:20:36 am
MacOS

I considered Apple for about 30 seconds (yes, even Apple is better than Windows 10). But the way they carry on and the "quality" of their hardware leaves little to be desired. I would sooner learn an entirely new operating system than pay money to that company.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: legacy on April 07, 2019, 10:21:56 am
Quote from: MasterTech on April 07, 2019, 06:55:54 am
I use only Mac hardware with VirtualBox and VMWare on them to run Win7

that means you have never run anything really heavy like a FEM analysis, and this might be dangerous, especially on laptops. Why? Because applications compiled for MacOSX are optimized at several levels, resulting in the best use of the CPU and GPU, which is what you what makes the machine safe from dying for overheating.

Running Windows applications under WMWare and these virtualizers ... well ... read this carefully: my MacBook/Pro literally fried like a bag of fried Chinese chips under FEM analysis.

It was (note the past verb) a super professional 3K euro Apple laptop with all the whistles and bells made by the Apple Marketing for describing it as "a lot of serious stuff", but ... facts are that the GPU fried two times because the cooling system sucks, and this means 899 euro wasted for repairing, and during this process, one of the two RAM-module died also, and the stupid dude made a lot of scratches around the touchpad, so in the end, I trashed the laptop. Oh, and the technical report said something like "it's YOUR fault because of your abuse of the machine"

abuse? of? what? FSK AppleCare or whatever it means ( -> more money for -> more bullshit)

"it's all your fault because: you executed heavy applications, not MacOSX supported, and not under the direct control of the MacOSX"


Apple, seriously:  :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm: :palm:
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: legacy on April 07, 2019, 10:39:18 am
Quote from: MasterTech on April 07, 2019, 10:22:46 am
Louis R would be very interested in your story. I'm extremely happy with my setup.

Even guys with Finalcut are happy on Apple. For those tasks, and natively executed under MacOSX, Apple makes the difference without making your wallet screwed up, and precisely along this line, the suggesting of WMWare as the definitive solution for everything needs some good warning.

Otherwise, I will give you my Paypal account for a donation(1), and you will receive the dead MacBook/Pro I was talking about, so you can verify by yourself how bad it sucks since it still boots, crashing in half a minute with a few dead blue lines on the screen, but applications are still installed on the hard drive, so  ...


(1) kidding  ;D
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: tautech on April 07, 2019, 11:57:25 am
Started with W3.11, then W95, 98, 98SE, Vista, W7, 8.1 and now 10.
Quite happy with W10 after ~1yr and much less time than spent with 98SE and W7.

Yes it's different but not so much, stable hell yeah !  :-+
(home built I3 box)

The only thing that previously held me back from W10 was a good fast 'net connection without a data cap.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: rdl on April 07, 2019, 11:59:05 am
I tried playing around with Windows 10 and after just 30 minutes or so, I had to walk away. I literally almost threw the computer at the wall (it was a little Brix, I could definitely throw it). There will probably come a day when I have to use it because of some game but it'll never be the main machine.

Put some kind of Linux on something now and start using it. There's really not much to worry about. Four or five years ago I started by putting Mint on a Microserver that wasn't being used. It was no trouble at all to install and get on the internet. For many people, that's all they need.

I was able to connect to my NAS and got VLC working with only one minor problem. From that point on I was a Happy Camper. The hardest part was getting rid of that sickly green color they're so fond of from the GUI.

In recent times, I've switched to Debian, but still run Windows 7 on the the living room entertainment machine.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 07, 2019, 12:35:12 pm
Quote from: Halcyon on April 07, 2019, 04:53:57 am
Linux Mint and Ubuntu are pretty good for beginners, but they aren't without their problems on certain hardware.


I'll second Linux Mint. I downloaded a live DVD and ran it from there before doing a "real" install. I have found good help in their forum for things an expert would know but not a beginner. OTOH there are still a few minor irritants that I cannot resolve and I just have to live with them and work around them.

My main advice is do not even consider installing a dual boot with windows on a single disk. Just get a separate disk. Windows does not paly nice with dual boots and it *will* destroy your installation.

I am using 
Code: [Select]
Linux Mint 18.2 Sonya - Kernel 4.4.0-138-generic X64 - Cinnamon 3.4.4 - Nemo - Firefox
and my wife can hardly tell the difference with Windows. She just opens the browser, copies files, etc. It is up to me to repair and maintain the system and that's where it can get complicated.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: rsjsouza on April 07, 2019, 01:20:13 pm
These threads are like the Phoenix: when one dies off, another one respawns...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-is-getting-disgusting/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/windows-is-getting-disgusting/)
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Rerouter on April 07, 2019, 01:31:13 pm
Well the problem hasn't exactly gone away, that some of us are very stubborn

Each new thread is a nudge that A we can feel validated in being stubborn,
and B a new nudge to try something new that doesn't conflict with point A purely out of spite for point A

 :P
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: madires on April 07, 2019, 02:35:07 pm
Quote from: soldar on April 07, 2019, 12:35:12 pm
My main advice is do not even consider installing a dual boot with windows on a single disk. Just get a separate disk. Windows does not paly nice with dual boots and it *will* destroy your installation.

For a beginner it makes sense to stay away from dual boot until he is able to deal with grub. Anyhow, dual/multi boot isn't black magic and works fairly stable. If anything breaks it can be fixed easily by a bootable linux USB stick in the worst case. And dual boot with Win10 works too.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 07, 2019, 02:38:24 pm
Quote from: rsjsouza on April 07, 2019, 01:20:13 pm
These threads are like the Phoenix: when one dies off, another one respawns...

That's the way I feel about those threads about that cheap Chinese power supply circuit. The pop up regularly and I will confess to having started one myself hoping to resolve the issue for once and for all. Little did I know...

So, yes, certain topics are of continuous interest.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Zero999 on April 07, 2019, 03:31:07 pm
The anti-Windows theme has become stronger since the release of 8. People weren't happy with Windblow$ Vista, but they shortly released 7, which solved that problem.

Now M$ are abandoning Windows 10, people are becoming more angry and this place is starting to look more like a Linux forum every day!
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 07, 2019, 03:53:02 pm
I think what happened is that MS saw the mobile computing phase coming and they thought it was a good idea to have Windows mobile and Windows desktop OS that were as similar as possible and this ruined both of them. Windows mobile never really took off and Windows OS for desktops has taken a big hit and more and more people are hating it and the direction it has taken. 

I think transitioning to Linux requires certain effort but at the same time you recover the feeling that you are in control of your computer and that is very important to many of us.

Some people might like the notion that they do not need to take charge because the computer takes care of itself. They are not concerned with being spied or sharing information because "I have nothing to hide" and they are lazy about learning things which require effort.

I don't know what MS could have done differently so their OS could appeal to two very different markets.

My hope is that Linux becomes more dominant, more polished, better, and has more software available. If all my software was available for Linux I would have dumped Windows long ago.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Zero999 on April 07, 2019, 04:39:31 pm
MS could have made Windows appeal to both desktop and phone/tablet markets by having different versions of Windows for each.

I don't think Linux needs as much computer experience to use nowadays, as it used to. I use it as my main OS and hardly know or care about the command line configuration files etc. Most tasks can be accomplished using the intuitive GUI.

If the power users and IT experts slowly adopt Linux more, as a desktop OS, then it will gradually become more popular, even for the home user.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 07, 2019, 06:13:41 pm
For all the hate that Vista gets I'm going to go out on a limb and say it was a good OS. It had a few teething pains but much of the problem was that at the time it was released the average hardware on the market was simply not powerful enough. Combine the vastly improved hardware situation with a few bugfixes and Vista is a rock solid OS, I know several people still using it.

The problem with where Microsoft tried to go after Win7 is they saw the whole mobile thing rising and completely misunderstood what was happening and took entirely the wrong approach, trying to merge both concepts into a unified platform providing the same experience on all devices. There are at least two big problems with this approach, one being the PC is not dead at all and is not going away, rather sales tanked because the platform matured to where most people no longer need to upgrade regularly and the other being there are vast numbers of users who never really needed the full capabilities of a PC, but it was the only practical way to use the internet. These casual users are now finding that mobile devices fulfill the needs they used to use a PC for and they will continue to not need a PC no matter how mobile-like you make it.

The other major problem is that traditional PCs and mobile devices serve quite different use cases with some overlap in the middle and trying to merge the whole experience results in a great deal of compromise and a result that is far from optimal for either. There's the whole lowest common denominator thing, and crippling a large screen desktop machine with a precision pointing device so that the interface can be used on a pocket sized touchscreen is an absolutely absurd idea but this is what they did. I'm not an Apple fanboy but I will say that Apple approached this far more sensibly. They realized early on that it was a bad idea to try to unify the experience and instead focused on making two different platforms, each optimized for their own different use cases, designed to work in harmony with each other. MacOS and iOS share a similar vibe and there is some common ground but Apple has not tried to make them the same because of the compromises that creates.

Then there is the frustration and anger that many of us feel because we feel as if we have been thrown under the bus and the platform that we have used for years or decades and invested heavily in no longer cares about our needs and the attitude from MS has been an extremely rude "too bad, deal with it". From the start with Windows 8 there has been a feeling that MS has been focused not on what the customers need but on what fits the business plan of the company. It's a classic case of trying to have the tail wag the dog. It seems that the operating system gets less flexible and customizable all the time and for people accustomed to having this degree of control we feel powerless.

Win10 feels to me absolutely hostile, it completely ignores my desires and attempts to force feed me something I didn't ask for and my only option is deal with it or go somewhere else, that's a lousy customer experience. Then there is the quality issue, MS fired almost all of their testers and the result of this shows. Sorry but I absolutely refuse to test their products for free, when they agree to pay me say $70k/yr then I'll happily run Win10 and provide them with detailed bug reports but I am not their tester, I'm the customer and I demand a product that is tested and ready to go by the time it is in my hands. I will not pay money for somebody's pet project.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: electromotive on April 07, 2019, 06:25:16 pm
Quote from: legacy on April 07, 2019, 10:39:18 am
Even guys with Finalcut are happy on Apple.

I was until the last updated killed my FinalCut entirely. That was bullsh-t on Apple's part. I won't be buying it's replacement, if you know what I mean.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 07, 2019, 11:28:17 pm
Quote from: soldar on April 07, 2019, 03:53:02 pm
I think transitioning to Linux requires certain effort but at the same time you recover the feeling that you are in control of your computer and that is very important to many of us.

Absolutely spot-on! I couldn't have put it better myself.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Mr. Scram on April 08, 2019, 11:34:57 pm
Quote from: james_s on April 06, 2019, 05:23:56 pm
Wanna bet?

I can keep using 7 for another 10 years if need be, I only moved up to it from XP 3 years ago so it's still shiny and new to me. More and more of my machines are on Linux these days but I still have one XP laptop I use for old stuff and yes it connects to the internet although I don't surf on it. Win10 is most definitely NOT going to happen, Windows is dead to me, as far as I'm concerned nothing after 7 exists. If I ever have a machine that lacks drivers for 7 it will be Linux or MacOS.
Weren't you the guy claiming he doesn't need security updates?
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 09, 2019, 12:51:46 am
Yeah and I don't, I haven't updated Windows in years because I don't trust the updates, and for good reason. I've been burned by updates much more than any other threat.

Linux updates painlessly though, I probably don't need to but I do tend to update it now and then because as of yet I've never once been burned by a bad update to the core OS. Never once had an update install spyware/telemetry, never had one surreptitiously download a whole new OS in the background then proceed to nag me about it. Never once had an update forcibly reboot my PC while I'm using it, or nag nag nag nag NAG me until I relent.

And my outside facing stuff, router and server those are naturally kept fully patched, they're Linux also so painless and trustworthy.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 09, 2019, 11:01:05 am
I have not updated my Win XP computers since.... well since XP ceased to be supported. They are still working fine although I know the hardware will stop working sooner or later. Since I have a few I can replace one with another.

My Linux Mint boxes update very regularly but it is completely painless. I click to update, it downloads, updates and it's done. No restarting, no waiting long time. Very easy and painless.

MS updates were explained in evasive terms which made me suspicious. I tend to trust Linux more so I don't scrutinize updates as much but when I do look into them they do offer more confidence.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Gyro on April 09, 2019, 11:14:37 am
I still have one XP machine getting security updates, you just need to tell it that it's a POS.  :)

https://betanews.com/2014/05/26/how-to-continue-getting-free-security-updates-for-windows-xp-until-2019/ (https://betanews.com/2014/05/26/how-to-continue-getting-free-security-updates-for-windows-xp-until-2019/)
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 10, 2019, 12:11:43 am
Quote from: Gyro on April 09, 2019, 11:14:37 am
I still have one XP machine getting security updates, you just need to tell it that it's a POS.  :)

https://betanews.com/2014/05/26/how-to-continue-getting-free-security-updates-for-windows-xp-until-2019/ (https://betanews.com/2014/05/26/how-to-continue-getting-free-security-updates-for-windows-xp-until-2019/)

Be very careful with this. Despite what some think, regular Windows XP and Windows XP POSReady/Embedded aren't created equally. I tried this workaround years ago when support for XP ended and it worked for a while until an update (or number of updates) rendered my machine unable to boot. This was a risk I knew about so I wasn't too annoyed.

In any case, Windows XP POSReady has now reached the end of extended support and won't be receiving any new updates, then after July, users won't be able to use Windows Update to apply even the old patches as Microsoft disables SHA-1 support (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/4472027/2019-sha-2-code-signing-support-requirement-for-windows-and-wsus) on the Windows update servers. Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 SP2 will receive standalone patches to enable to them use Windows update after July, however Windows XP (all variants) will miss out.

If you still insist on running Windows XP, your best option is to use unofficial service packs (https://msfn.org/board/topic/171171-introducing-unofficial-windows-xp-sp4/) from a reputable developer.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: soldar on April 10, 2019, 10:26:15 am
Quote from: Gyro on April 09, 2019, 11:14:37 am
I still have one XP machine getting security updates, you just need to tell it that it's a POS.  :)


Yeah but no. Getting security updates is precisely what I am trying to avoid.

And everybody knows Windows is a POS ;)
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: rdl on April 10, 2019, 02:34:53 pm
I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to use something like wsusoffline to grab all updates before Microsoft make these changes. Just in case.

Actually, I don't know of anything else besides wsusoffline that could do this.

Quote from: Halcyon on April 10, 2019, 12:11:43 am
...
In any case, Windows XP POSReady has now reached the end of extended support and won't be receiving any new updates, then after July, users won't be able to use Windows Update to apply even the old patches as Microsoft disables SHA-1 support (https://support.microsoft.com/en-au/help/4472027/2019-sha-2-code-signing-support-requirement-for-windows-and-wsus) on the Windows update servers. Windows 7 and Windows Server 2008 SP2 will receive standalone patches to enable to them use Windows update after July, however Windows XP (all variants) will miss out.

If you still insist on running Windows XP, your best option is to use unofficial service packs (https://msfn.org/board/topic/171171-introducing-unofficial-windows-xp-sp4/) from a reputable developer.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: SeanB on April 10, 2019, 04:59:28 pm
To be fair, Win7 was basically Vista with all the kinks ironed out, a slightly different UI look and feel, and all the patches applied to it out of the box. not at all bad to use, and was and still is used by people, who do not notice the differences.

I use Linux Mint, currently Mint17, though I have done the (hidden in update manager by default) kernel upgrades to get to 4.4.0-98, as that does require a reboot.  Only issue was scanner support being broken for some older models, but there is a workaround for that, I just use an older laptop instead with a non supported LTS version on it ( what else to do with an old laptop that is broken a little, has a 40G drive but still works fine) if I need to actually plug the equally old Epson scanner into it.

Other than that, XP in Virtualbox (a good number of copies, one for each application that needs it) and in most cases USB pass through works well enough to use. Otherwise Dosbox and Wine do the job.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Gyro on April 10, 2019, 08:40:17 pm
XP virtual machine running under Win7 64bit works so well for my legacy stuff that I'm questioning the need for my remaining XP machine.  The only thing that's stopped me so far is the lack of a 'proper' parallel port on my newer laptops. I do have an IBM T42 that runs Win7 32bit (pretty well with an SSD) that has a parallel port though, which will hopefully fill that remaining function.

After Win7 I guess I'm going to have to go linux too.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Halcyon on April 11, 2019, 01:59:45 am
Quote from: rdl on April 10, 2019, 02:34:53 pm
I'm wondering if it might be a good idea to use something like wsusoffline to grab all updates before Microsoft make these changes. Just in case.

In preparation, I've just created a base build of Windows XP with key activated and all available updates installed and stored it in a VMDK file. I can then use that in VirtualBox or on my ESXi server if required, I just need to customise it to my needs.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: Mr. Scram on April 11, 2019, 02:39:52 pm
Quote from: james_s on April 09, 2019, 12:51:46 am
Yeah and I don't, I haven't updated Windows in years because I don't trust the updates, and for good reason. I've been burned by updates much more than any other threat.

Linux updates painlessly though, I probably don't need to but I do tend to update it now and then because as of yet I've never once been burned by a bad update to the core OS. Never once had an update install spyware/telemetry, never had one surreptitiously download a whole new OS in the background then proceed to nag me about it. Never once had an update forcibly reboot my PC while I'm using it, or nag nag nag nag NAG me until I relent.

And my outside facing stuff, router and server those are naturally kept fully patched, they're Linux also so painless and trustworthy.
In the previous discussion several IT professionals including those with intelligence experience explained that networking your computer without updates isn't a good idea. If that's not enough I don't think anything is. There are very real reasons and examples why and how it can get you into trouble, even without ever realizing you are in trouble until it's too late. People reading this thread shouldn't make the mistake of thinking it's a very good idea.
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: madires on April 11, 2019, 03:19:07 pm
KB4493472, KB4493446 and a few more solve the problem of updates and networking. >:D On Win 7 SP1, Server 2008 R2 SP1, Win 8.1 and Server 2012 R2 the latest updates may render your network connectivity inoperative. Best security update ever. ;D
Title: Re: I had a hot date with Windows 8...
Post by: james_s on April 11, 2019, 03:52:46 pm
I like MacOS a lot but their current hardware lineup is a joke. My employer issued MacBook Pro is beautifully constructed and has a gorgeous display but the design is severely gimped in order to make it much thinner than necessary. The storage and RAM are soldered to the motherboard, the only ports it has are those stupid USB-C so absolutely every peripheral I use requires a dongle. The keyboard is crap too, it makes a clacking noise and feels like typing on a flip phone. Oh and the touchpad is at least 4x the size it ought to be, it's so huge that it's in the way and pushes the keyboard up to an awkward position. Oh and the touchbar is a gimmick, it's handy for adjusting brightness and volume but otherwise just gets in the way. I've accidentally bumped it much more often than I've used it deliberately. Putting the Esc key onto that instead of a real key was beyond stupid too.

Apple has full on become a fashion company, form over function has taken over design philosophy to the extreme. I would never invest my own money in that platform with its current trajectory.