I Hate Batteries

[engrguy42]

Has anyone stepped back to consider how annoying and stupid they are?

My multimeter was starting to act a bit goofy. Turn it on, and sometimes it comes on for a sec then goes off. Other times it's fine. I'm thinking "Hmm...battery??". But no battery indicator. And no way of verifying whether it has 10 minutes or 10 months of charge left.

So I find another pair of AAA's (of course the freakin' thing needs AAA's, not the crap-ton of AA's I have...so I had to steal from another device, after spending 1/2 hour looking around for a device that uses AAA's). And I try them and it's even worse. Apparently those batteries were dead. Who knew??

So I scrounge some more and fine 2 more AAA's, and, VOILA !!! They seem to work. Of course it's always a crap shoot to guess the state of the battery. And they never give you warning, they just die. And it's never the size that you have a supply of. Oh, I hope they're AA's...nope, its a 9V...or shoot, it's 6 AAA's...or a couple of D cells...and so on.

And no, I'm not going to go out and buy multiple battery analyzer devices for all the different types of batteries I encounter. Or different chargers for them all. I just pulled a couple of unmarked, 4v lead acid batteries from a device, and who the hell knows what analyzers or chargers will work. And then you have to get into the science of CV and CC charging for different types? No freakin' way. I'll just toss them.

Oh, but I can't because the battery drop off place is closed due to COVID. 

And when you go to the store they don't give you the intelligent choice (rechargeables), but instead give you racks full of packs of 64 freakin' AAA's that you'll never use, and it costs an arm and a leg. So you need to keep a stock of 6 different battery types, most of which you'll never use. Until you need it and don't have it. Just to annoy you.

And then when you tear down a piece of equipment you're gonna use for parts, and find some specialized batteries you might be able to use you then have to figure out how the hell to charge that particular type of battery without it blowing up the house. And how to solder wires on them without blowing up the house.

I hate batteries. 

[jogri]

There is a simple fix to that:
1) Have all your batteries that you don't currently use in one place, together with a volt meter for the AA & 9V variants. If you need one, just grab it and check the voltage.
2) Get a universal charger for rechargable batteries. I can recommend a charger from iSDT, they are cheap and cover everything from lead acids to li-ions. Just build yourself a few XT60 cables with different attachements (bare wires, AA/AAA mounts etc) and you are good to go. If you don't fancy doing that attach a machine screw to the end of the cable and use neodymium magnets to attach the cable to the battery terminals. Or just use your bench power supply, it will most definitely support CC and CV charging.

And i rarely see anything other than AA, AAA, 18650 and maybe 9V blocks. Just keep a bunch of those in stock and use Amazon prime if you run into a weird format.

[magic]

So you hate rubbish DMMs which fail to report undervoltage before it affects their operation?

Sorry man, even my old $10 UNI-T gets this right with a latched low battery indicator which triggers at some 2/3 nominal voltage, well before the meter starts to act up

[vk6zgo]

So you hate rubbish DMMs which fail to report undervoltage before it affects their operation?

Sorry man, even my old $10 UNI-T gets this right with a latched low battery indicator which triggers at some 2/3 nominal voltage, well before the meter starts to act up

You must have the improved version, as the first time I ran into just this problem, it was with an old UNI-T.(when it wasn't that old).

The dumb thing measured low on the resistance range, & some "gurus" were trying to troubleshoot a device where  some other dumb  people had fitted a resistor which was too high in value.---A perfect storm!

The resistor was supposed to be 15k, & the UNI-T said it was 14k, so the "gurus" passed the resistor as OK, & went off with all sorts of silly theories about the fault.

"Blind Freddie" (with the help of a penlight) could see the colour code read 27k.
My Fluke 77 read it as around 22k (it had a few other higher value resistors hanging off it in the circuit).

[T3sl4co1l]

I have a set of rechargeable AA, AAA and 18650 laying around.  The A series are low self-discharge NiMH.  Which, hmm, they've probably been sitting around long enough I need to top them up again, come to think of it; I don't use them very often after my old camera died.  Anyway, and the 18650s are Li ion of course, which I mainly use in projects like flashlights.

Just swap out a set and go.  Put the used ones on the charger, then put them back in the pile.  $20 will buy you enough for several meters and a decade or more of use.  Don't get the cheap, "high capacity" cells: they self-discharge painfully quick (possibly faster than your meter uses them while on!), and wear out quickly.  Plus if they're cheap enough, they'll lie about their capacity to begin with.  Don't get an overly cheap charger either: it'll cook the cells rather than stopping when full.  (Can also slum it with a bench supply, if you so choose; monitor them carefully, NiMH has an odd charging curve.)

Tim

[engrguy42]

So you hate rubbish DMMs which fail to report undervoltage before it affects their operation?

Sorry man, even my old $10 UNI-T gets this right with a latched low battery indicator which triggers at some 2/3 nominal voltage, well before the meter starts to act up

Well, no. The timing of the reporting of the meter is absolutely irrelevant isn't it? Even if the meter reported a low battery earlier the issue remains. You need replacements. You don't know the status of the replacements. You need a stock of  many types of replacements. And so on....

BTW, as I mentioned, to highlight the issue (and for those who are somehow convinced this is an easy issue to resolve)...

I pulled some totally unmarked batteries out of a device. I measured the open circuit terminal volts with my meter, and it reads 4.15 volts. How long will they last?

If you like batteries, then fine. I hate them. With good reason. 

[rdl]

For AA, AAA, and 9 volt, I switched to rechargeables a while back. I've saved hundreds of dollars so far. Enough to pay for the chargers and batteries many times over.

[Red Squirrel]

What I would love to see is a standard moving towards lithium ion. 18650 and similar cells.  Maybe have one the size of an AAA but not quite same size, and then 18650 for larger devices. 

Or another thing would be for devices to be designed around the voltage of rechargeable alkaline replacements instead of non rechargeable.  The lower voltage of Ni-MH compared to alkaline usually means the device won't perform or last as long as it will hit the low voltage cut off sooner.  Especially devices that need 4+ in series as the voltage drop adds up.  I try to use rechargeables where I can though.  There are places I found where they just don't work, like Wii remotes.  Would be interesting to see if you could retro fit lithium ion in those. Not sure what the voltage tolerance is though.  A single lithium cell is going to be a little bit more voltage than two alkalines and it might not like that and it might let the magic smoke out.

[engrguy42]

For AA, AAA, and 9 volt, I switched to rechargeables a while back. I've saved hundreds of dollars so far. Enough to pay for the chargers and batteries many times over.

Good point. I did the same thing. So you need a stock of 3 types of rechargeable batteries, plus two chargers. Oh wait, you forgot the C and D cells for flashlights and R/C and other stuff. So that's 5 types. And more chargers. And remembering to keep them all in stock and charged. And do you have one of those battery powered drills? 

BTW, have you noticed how difficult it is to find AA/AAA/9V rechargeables in the supermarket?

The whole thing is a huge PITA.

[deadlylover]

If you have an IKEA nearby (or if they deliver cheaply), the IKEA LADDA AA and AAA NiMH batteries are very good. The made in Japan models come out of the only NiMH factory in Japan, which is where some of the famous Eneloops come from.

I tested them a while back and comparing them to the latest generation Eneloop they only showed 1% lower capacity or so, very nice considering they are a quarter the cost! 

Not only do I save money in the long run, I don't worry about leaking alkalines any more. On the other hand sometimes friends and family do me a favour and replace the batteries when they borrow stuff... 

[pardo-bsso]

If you like batteries, then fine. I hate them. With good reason.

You can always build a battery eliminator  and forget about them.

[engrguy42]

Out of curiosity I decided to make a quick scan of those devices around the house that require batteries. At least the ones I can think of off the top of my head.

Below is a list of them. Wow.

Turns out I have at least 30 batteries in various devices, but when all is said and done I'm sure it's closer to 40 total. I know there's another TV remote around here somewhere, and I was too lazy to open up my R/C boat to see how many D (??) cells are in there. Oh yeah, and I know I've got another bluetooth mouse around here somewhere.

There are 5 different sizes, and I have no clue what charge state ANY of them are in. So yeah, trying to manage 40 batteries of 5 different sizes and varying (& unknown) ages and states in 15+ different devices is a freakin' PITA.   

[PTR_1275]

I have a text file on my phone with all the batteries in test gear and when they were last charged.

I bought a crap load of ikea ladda batteries and keep a spare set in each instrument case (some equipment lives at work, some in the car, some in my toolbag and some at home).

Things I don’t use often are stored with the batteries out of the device. I found having a list there makes it harder to forget the obscure thing tucked away on a shelf.

I have a isdt charger from hobby king that handles eneloops and other chemistries and gives quite a lot of information. The self discharge on the eneloop / Ladda batteries really is quite low.

Since I started doing this I’ve not been caught with a flat battery in about 3 years and it doesn’t take that much effort.

[engrguy42]

If you like batteries, then fine. I hate them. With good reason.

You can always build a battery eliminator  and forget about them.

Actually I just did that with a portable LED light. Bought a cool little buck converter and wired it up and it's wonderful. Unfortunately that won't work with stuff like my flashlights and multimeter and R/C stuff and TV remote and magnifying glass and blood pressure meter and so on....

[coppercone2]

get a dewalt organizer box to put batteries in, they hold AA, AAA, C and 9V quite well. The smaller one.

1) don't mix cell types (brands). If you are paranoid, don't even mix cells from different boxes. Organizer box is important for this!. Due to their nature they are not a stable component as we are used to with things like foil capacitors.
2) don't mix cells used with different loads. You can't just measure voltage after its used and expect a reliable battery If you start making franken batteries out of multiple cells, If you have to resort to doing this, don't leave them in the device but keep the frankenbats separate. If you pull a cell out of an alarm clock and a cell out of a flashlight and combine them, expect bad things to happen eventually. The dewalt organizer is good because you get alot of compartments that the cells fit in, so you can segregate them (throw in a piece of post it note). This is considered really cheap, typically you are not supposed to mess with them after you install them till they are dead.. but they are expensive unfortunately. This has to do with electrolye migration and state of charge and gas pressure buildup. Measuring voltage is good, for making survivalist/emergency stockpile BACKUP (i.e. convenience). Not even a primary emergency stock.
3) respect the battery life date.
4) Spend a couple of dollars on good NiMH to put in stuff that is a bastard incase of leaks (i.e. barrel flashlights that you leave in car). Alkaline is a good value if its in something beefy that you check some what frequently, it's capacity and discharge characteristics are good. Keep spares for lower capacity NiMH stuff if you are in a bind (alkaline backup).
5) realize alot of devices suck and they have too high a standby current which can kill batteries. Most reliable is hard switch. Soft switch devices can be hit or miss. Designers can't make the circuit good enough in consumer objects with price points on soft switches sometimes so companies end up selling leaky BS.
6) avoid Zinc/Carbon unless you really can't afford alkaline. They are set to blow.
7) battery reuse is risky

Batteries are great but they are not easy to use because of price psychology. If you are cheap with everything you do, you will naturally suck with batteries because they are complex. I recommend a 6 month review, its like checking to make sure you don't have a leak under the sink.. yea, when you first realize it takes effort, anxiety... I was purging shady cells for like 2 months before I got everything on track. I feel like you can go through a big portion of life without thinking about batteries, but eventually you get into some kind of systemic failure situation that makes you change your ways.

[engrguy42]

Wow, coppercone2, you mean they're even FAR more of a PITA than I thought??? 

[coppercone2]

It's a electrochemical reactor filled with caustics or flammables that lasts for 5-10 years that you buy for like 1.25, so yes

Good value, eliminates voltage regulators, low noise, small.. you can't hate on batteries. Also, watch out for brand name OEM stuff. Its better then Chaobang but still. Freebee batteries included with stuff have a surprise on the label, even if they look mostly good. Less QC etc.

The problem with cheap stuff is the time constants are so long, process variations occur (just look at Amazonbasics quality change!)... its hard to determine experimentally whats going on.. you need like frathernity knowledge, or pay for top5 brand.

Not to mention massive intrinsic safety on alkaline.

[james_s]

For AA, AAA, and 9 volt, I switched to rechargeables a while back. I've saved hundreds of dollars so far. Enough to pay for the chargers and batteries many times over.

Good point. I did the same thing. So you need a stock of 3 types of rechargeable batteries, plus two chargers. Oh wait, you forgot the C and D cells for flashlights and R/C and other stuff. So that's 5 types. And more chargers. And remembering to keep them all in stock and charged. And do you have one of those battery powered drills? 

BTW, have you noticed how difficult it is to find AA/AAA/9V rechargeables in the supermarket?

The whole thing is a huge PITA.

You're doing it wrong.

Forget the supermarket, buy the batteries online ahead of when you need them. You need AA, AAA and 9V in most cases, C and D can be handled with adapters or you can buy alkaline C and D cells for the rare application that needs them. At least 95% of my needs are met with AA, AAA and 9V. I have an organizer tray in the desk drawer where I keep the stock of charged batteries, the charger lives on the desk and next to it is a dish in which to deposit batteries that need charging if the charger is already occupied. There's always a fresh stash in the drawer so whenever something needs them I grab a set and toss the drained ones in the charger. If I start to have too many in circulation to keep an adequate supply I simply order some more. It's a complete non-issue.

RC stuff is separate, I have a box of LiPo packs and the chargers I use for that stored in my gear bag that I haul to the field with me, I'd need all that stuff anyway and it's a lot less hassle than messing with glow fuel.

I also have some 18650s and a charger for those, again that's specialist stuff that meets a particular need.

Oh and I have 2 cordless drills, a reciprocating saw, circular saw and screw gun, I gave away my corded drill, I use my bigger corded circular saw when I need to cut something big. I've been shopping around planning to get a cordless electric string trimmer because dragging a cord around is a PITA and I got tired of messing with the gasoline powered one and gave that away.

I love batteries, I hate being tethered by wires. I've been using rechargeable batteries in everything for more than a decade now and don't have any of the troubles you complain about.

[coppercone2]

And they are good because if you have them, you can make banks for different voltage rails and when you are done testing a circuit's power systems (i.e. your own PCB), you hook it up to batteries while you run analog/performance tests.. then if you like it, you can work on the mains, rechargable, etc power system (like most circuits have local regulation then you do pre regulation with a switcher, transformer/cap, etc). For low power stuff its good. You can turn off some supplies and get rid of some cabling dangling around and make it more mobile temporarily, even if your final solution is going to be mains powered. Bit of a luxury though, to use this method.. if you are good with crimps/adapters you can really clean things up, and reduce lab heat.

I.e. if you have RF equipment racks, and a complicated power system with many rails, it makes sense to test the basic stuff on a basic work bench then power it on batteries and then work on the advanced bench. In some cases. I sometimes feel like I am being stormed by dials and knobs and stuff for no reason, but I am not at the point where I want to make the mains part of a circuit.

I am focusing on lab use of batteries. Of course any power tool thats modern is usually better with batteries, even gardening equipment now, unless you are doing alot of work.. IMO. But you need good stuff.

[engrguy42]

Wow, never thought there's actually a group of battery fanboys out there 

Especially ones who make long lists of the issues and annoyances with batteries, and then claim they're awesome 

Apologies. Here I thought with the wall outlet you just plug it in and it works, but with batteries it's a whole annoying management process and science project.

DOH!!! 

What was I thinking??

[coppercone2]

they are advanced.. I don't know if you can call it an annoyance, electronics is just hard. Makes some sense anyway if you don't want to leave 3 supplies running over a week to test a 5mA draw circuit or something. To me its like clamps in a wood shop or welding. More options less stress with a bit of management.

[engrguy42]

they are advanced.. I don't know if you can call it an annoyance, electronics is just hard. Makes some sense anyway if you don't want to leave 3 supplies running over a week to test a 5mA draw circuit or something.

Ahh..okay..they're only for the really smart guys 

[coppercone2]

pretty much seems like it

[coppercone2]

MOM!!!!!! WHY WONT PHYSICS WORK!!!!!!>?!??!?!

[james_s]

Wow, never thought there's actually a group of battery fanboys out there 

Especially ones who make long lists of the issues and annoyances with batteries, and then claim they're awesome 

Apologies. Here I thought with the wall outlet you just plug it in and it works, but with batteries it's a whole annoying management process and science project.

DOH!!! 

What was I thinking??

I have no idea, I wouldn't call myself a "battery fanboy" but I certainly love not being tethered by power cords. Come up with an alternative to batteries that doesn't require wires or noisy temperamental engines and I'll get in line to get one. Anyway it just sounds like you are ranting about a non-issue, something many of us solved so many years ago that we're having difficulty comprehending the problem.