I. HATE. KEYSIGHT. SO. MUCH. RIGHT. NOW.

[neverendingstudent]

So, I recently scored a cheap 3458A in parts/repair status and got it working.  The rear plastic bezel was broken and I just wanted to know if I could buy a replacement and how much it would be.  So I sent off a request to Keysight.

Tad over a week goes by (in fairness, Thanksgiving was inside that wait period).  They responded asking me to supply information about myself *and you had better be a business you filthy plebeian!*, so fine, I gave them my business name (my last name) contracting in addition to all the personal information they demanded and DEFINITELY DIDN'T NEED TO JUST QUOTE ME A PRICE.

A day or two goes by.  They respond again asking for the serial number of the unit.  As far as I know there are no different versions of the back plastic bezel, not counting the black color scheme they switched to a while back (and I let them know in my original email it was a beige one, not a black one, along with the year it was manufactured according to the date stamped on the inside of the cover).

Fine, whatever, have the serial number too.  Certainly not like you could have asked for everything you needed up front.

Another day goes by, and I get another email from them.

"Hi Your Name,
Thank you for choosing Keysight Technologies, Inc for your services and solutions needs.
We are pleased to send you the attached quotation Purchase Agreement #xxx as well as Keysight Technologies Service Terms and the Service Exhibits for Return to Keysight Calibration and/or Return to Keysight Repair . Before I complete processing your request, I need to know your method of payment."

A PDF invoice is attached requesting payment up front of $7,079.60.

You assholes could have just told me you don't sell parts, or maybe that you don't feel like selling ME parts in particular.  Telling me to send you f*cking SEVEN THOUSAND DOLLARS and ship you my meter, just for a plastic rear bezel so you can screw in 4 SCREWS, was a completely unnecessary insult.

[Smokey]

Go look up how much it costs in parts and labor to replace a headlight in a Bugatti Chiron... It should make you feel better.

[neverendingstudent]

No, it will not.  One company being more evil and/or exploitative shall not deter, defang, nor redirect my ire at Keysight.  I am firm and set in my anger over this insult and no other injustice shall distract me!

[Psi]

How common are spare parts for that model? are they rare?
It's definitely not a fair price and totally ridiculous but I can kind of understand why they would do that if they only have a box of 20 left and they still servicing/fix those units for high end customers. Like med/mil/aero.

The main thing that is so annoying is not telling you upfront that the cost will be in the $1000's so they're not wasting your time.
But my guess is the person answering emails likely has no idea or access to the price of old equipment parts without filing an internal request and waiting for the reply.

The world should work in a way where goods are priced fairly with regard to their cost to make, but it does not work that way. It works by what people will pay.
In this case they're not just giving you a stupid price for no reason, there will be a reason why that part is worth so much to them. Some customers are obviously paying it.

There are cases where companies will give you as stupid high price for something to make you go away, but that is usually because they have no internal polity/procedure so it's a pain to manually get permission and organize a sale.
In this case Keysight obviously have a process to sell spare parts so that's not the issue.

[neverendingstudent]

Parts are not particularly common (on the secondary market) - part of the reason for that might just be that over the years Keysight have been putting up more and more barriers to customers to actually be able to buy parts.

I'm moderately skeptical about them running out of parts - the meter has been in service for ~37 years and is still in production.  Individuals and institutions service and repair these meters on an ongoing basis.  But maybe.

Your point about the person answering emails needing to file an internal request is perfectly logical and I reject it because I'm not done being irate.  I'll consider your logic later, after I have been irate for a suitable length of time.

But this:

In this case they're not just giving you a stupid price for no reason, there will be a reason why that part is worth so much to them. Some customers are obviously paying it.

I have to disagree with.  They wouldn't even sell me the part.  They sent an invoice for me to SEND THEM MY METER so they could charge me $7K for that plastic rectangle and to screw in 4 screws themselves, rather than letting me do it.

At this point I'll just buy a Prusa XL or something that has the print bed space for the 42.5cm bezel and make the damn thing myself.  BUYING THE TWO THOUSAND DOLLAR PRINTER WILL BE CHEAPER.

Grumble grumble grumble.

[Psi]

When they gave you the send-in repair quote did you reply and correct them that you only want a price to send you the part?  and they refused to do so?
Or did you just assume they wont because they sent you an invoice to send the unit in for fixing?

I can totally see things getting mixed up and them not reading your original message and the request turning into a service request somewhere along the many people it went through?

[Psi]

Your point about the person answering emails needing to file an internal request is perfectly logical and I reject it because I'm not done being irate.  I'll consider your logic later, after I have been irate for a suitable length of time.

 

I could make an assumption, but i wont.

[neverendingstudent]

Did you correct them and ask for just the price to send you the part and they refused to do so?
Or did you just assume they wont because they sent you an invoice to send the unit in for fixing?

Their last email just came in a bit ago, the one with the invoice.  I don't feel it would be productive to try to continue trying to communicate by email further and am planning on calling one of the numbers they provided with the invoice tomorrow so I can make sure I can discuss this with a person and ensure they understand I just want to buy the part.  I don't have high hopes for results, but I'll try.

[Psi]

If you want some logic to try and argue for them just sending you the spare part you could..

- Say the equipment is part of a larger custom machine and heavily integrated so you can't send it in.
- Or maybe a better one is to say the equipment has a custom in-house module attached that is proprietary and cannot be removed due to internal policy, or shipped outside of the company for the same reason. So buying the part is the only option.

If they do have a policy of not supplying spare parts they probably do have clauses that can remove that constraint if you can tick that box when talking with them.
Just getting angry that they won't ship you the part probably wont tick that box.

[alpher]

My experience with them was all but possitive (could be cause I suppled them a legit bussiness info), and they sold me pair of plastic feets for more than 25 years old piece, quite reasonably, (it was ~10 to 15 bucks each for quite unique feet of first generation  Infiniium scope).
Yet I agree, the general trend seems to be cutting corners at the support level everywhere.

[aeg]

FWIW...

I searched for 3458A in the "Product Search" tab at https://www.keysight.com/us/en/ecom/parts.html

It comes back with three rear bezels:

Part Number: 03458-47901
Part Description: NFTS Bzl Rear SN 2823A21099
Item Status: Not orderable, Contact Keysight for repair service

Part Number: 03458-47911
Part Description: NFTS Bezel Rear SN2823A21100
Item Status: Not orderable, Contact Keysight for repair service

Part Number: 03458-47921
Part Description: Rear Bezel, Phantom Gray
Item Status: Orderable

Manual 03458-90011 says that 03458-47911 is for "new case colors" which are serial numbers greater than 2823A21100, and -47901 is for "old case colors".

Keysight has removed the pricing from their website, but someone looked it up and made a spreadsheet in 2018: https://docs.ampnuts.ru/eevblog.docs/HP_Agilent_Keysight/3458A/ListPartSearchResult.xls

-47901 was $151 in 2018 and -47911 was $86.

Keysight has a knowledge base entry explaining the "NFTS" prefix in the part description: https://docs.keysight.com/kkbopen/what-does-the-not-for-trade-sales-nfts-status-that-s-used-on-some-parts-mean-620697205.html

"Not For Trade Sales (NFTS) parts are restricted parts.  Part numbers that are flagged with this status are normally reserved for internal use, typically by our Service Centers. These parts are not available for customer sales."

[squadchannel]

about Tek,
Tek Japan had us order parts through distributors. they provided pricing and lead times.
I ordered from a well-known dealer in akihabara and received the TDS7K front bezel and power button from Beaverton in two weeks.

did you try contact to a dealer?

Relationships like the signal path are the best.

[Halcyon]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

[neverendingstudent]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

I wonder if, under the aegis of Austrailian law, Dave could order it for me and I could reimburse him? (chuckling while I type this - not actually asking)

[Halcyon]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

I wonder if, under the aegis of Austrailian law, Dave could order it for me and I could reimburse him? (chuckling while I type this - not actually asking)

I suspect companies like Keysight probably have no clue about the law, and will just stick to the same script anyway. I mean, who is going to take them to court over a plastic cover?

[lowimpedance]

So is that $7000 for the new grey color plastic ? or the beige ?

  Maybe this is Keysight's standard  ;  'send us your broken one, and after a suitable $$$ exchange we will send you a refurb unit' 

You might get back a unit thats had a full color change 

Otherwise yeah ..... 3D print one.

[neverendingstudent]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

I wonder if, under the aegis of Austrailian law, Dave could order it for me and I could reimburse him? (chuckling while I type this - not actually asking)

I suspect companies like Keysight probably have no clue about the law, and will just stick to the same script anyway. I mean, who is going to take them to court over a plastic cover?

Louis Rossmann maybe?  Unfortunately he isn't in Australia to take advantage of that law.  Steven Rhine of Rhine Labs would - but same issue, he's also in the US.

[neverendingstudent]

about Tek,
Tek Japan had us order parts through distributors. they provided pricing and lead times.
I ordered from a well-known dealer in akihabara and received the TDS7K front bezel and power button from Beaverton in two weeks.

did you try contact to a dealer?

Relationships like the signal path are the best.

After some searching, I find only 2 secondary companies that reference this part number: Alltest Instruments and FC Equipments - FC is in France and I'm getting website failures when I try to switch to their English site, but I sent an availability/price query to Alltest.  We'll see if anything comes of it.

[Halcyon]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

I wonder if, under the aegis of Austrailian law, Dave could order it for me and I could reimburse him? (chuckling while I type this - not actually asking)

I suspect companies like Keysight probably have no clue about the law, and will just stick to the same script anyway. I mean, who is going to take them to court over a plastic cover?

Louis Rossmann maybe?  Unfortunately he isn't in Australia to take advantage of that law.  Steven Rhine of Rhine Labs would - but same issue, he's also in the US.

Yeah, true

[coppercone2]

Hmm I think most enigneers might take up a full on 3d-print design job for 400USD and then 350 to get it printed very nicely, for like 900 you can get it made with engineering cast resin (prototyping part epoxy) with molds made that will have 80% or sometimes nearly full strength of the thermoplastic casting


Also I was thinking about next level plastic repair, that is to get thin fiberglass rods and swiss drills, then use a small hand drill (precise) to make holes and bond it all together with a good epoxy, so you don't have metal in your dielectric (for isolation), for those that don't want little staples or metal rods in their plastic repairs, to make it like rebars in cement
p.s. the reason why your micro-drill sucks is that the drill bit is a piece of crap and you got one with a bad collet, you need like $10 dollar drill bit and its a wonder tool

[squadchannel]

After some searching, I find only 2 secondary companies that reference this part number: Alltest Instruments and FC Equipments - FC is in France and I'm getting website failures when I try to switch to their English site, but I sent an availability/price query to Alltest.  We'll see if anything comes of it.

If it's a dealer that offers repair (adjustment) services, they should be able to order the part.
3D printing large parts looks really bad. if can get a bezel for $151, that's definitely the better option.

[coppercone2]

Also I fixed a stupid ear muff thing from 3m with 2x m3 screws and tiny washers, they wanted like $100 for some bullshit plastic on a 200$ earmuff.

I will do nearly anything to spite that business man (fake engineer) that wants to make some kind of 'service/subscription model' out of cheap hardware brackets. It seems that you can usually defeat them with tiny drills and bolts along with some clever fixture. Its nothing more then a clever scam by someone that figured out how to time crack propagation, corrosion and material fatigue. Business plan inspired by the St. Nazaire submarine pen raid involving timers?


The interesting thing is that the proliferation of 3d printer now comes with rather common knowledge of cheap plastics engineering parts, usually the people that 3d print alot can tell you when/how some kinda similar manufactured hardware will break.

[neverendingstudent]

Hmm I think most enigneers might take up a full on 3d-print design job for 400USD and then 350 to get it printed very nicely, for like 900 you can get it made with engineering cast resin (prototyping part epoxy) with molds made that will have 80% or sometimes nearly full strength of the thermoplastic casting


Also I was thinking about next level plastic repair, that is to get thin fiberglass rods and swiss drills, then use a small hand drill (precise) to make holes and bond it all together with a good epoxy, so you don't have metal in your dielectric (for isolation), for those that don't want little staples or metal rods in their plastic repairs, to make it like rebars in cement
p.s. the reason why your micro-drill sucks is that the drill bit is a piece of crap and you got one with a bad collet, you need like $10 dollar drill bit and its a wonder tool

I think for the $900 range I would elect to spend twice as much and buy the large-format printer rather than spend half the investment of the printer on a single part production.  I am interested in your idea for repair though - the bezel I have is complete (as in no bits are missing), it's just badly cracked and coming apart.

After some searching, I find only 2 secondary companies that reference this part number: Alltest Instruments and FC Equipments - FC is in France and I'm getting website failures when I try to switch to their English site, but I sent an availability/price query to Alltest.  We'll see if anything comes of it.

If it's a dealer that offers repair (adjustment) services, they should be able to order the part.
3D printing large parts looks really bad. if can get a bezel for $151, that's definitely the better option.

I don't think it would be impossible, or even excessively hard.  Dimmog makes excellent rear bezels for some of the more common HPAK half-rack gear (I bought his 34401A bezels in bulk and they are excellent).  I actually ran this by him first, but he's full up on space and would have to buy a large-format printer (like the Prusa XL) to print this bezel, and he doesn't have room for the additional printer right now.  There is also the issue of investing in an expensive printer to cover the needs of a single part that will likely have an order of magnitude less demand than the 34401a rear bezel.

Depending on how the conversations that I already have started go, I may widen my search to other companies as suggested.

[coppercone2]

The premium service involves making a mold and casting the part (not that simple) but it will still beat out keysight substantially I think.

As for 3d printing yourself, so long you can make the model, it will payoff even a midrange 3d printer lol. But I suspect the repair can often be done for very cheap (once you invest in the drills and clamps and such to figure out how it will be repaired), just don't fall into the trap of the 30 micro drill bit set for $10 from china that has the nice aluminum nitride yellow on it, those drills will make you think the work you are trying to do is impossible even on a plastic.

https://www.esslinger.com/swiss-made-carbide-twist-drills-3-32-inch-shank-drill-bits-50-to-2-30mm-please-select-size/

Expect to break a few drill bits when learning, even if you have a nice proxxon rotary tool, its skilled labor

the vanadium carbide ones might be easier, I only ever tried carbide ones, they seem to work OK but I am not saying their the best


You will need to make a comfortable fixture to work comfortably, sometimes involving hot glue or other tricks like building a scafolding out of scrap wood to keep the part in position when you work (and sometimes it needs to be stretched a little bit). I thought to over drill the size of the hole, so you can put a fiberglass rod in there that is a little loose, so when your two holes don't line up, it can still interface properly, then put glue and put it all together.



If you need some inspiration, look at what these guys do for cast iron and 'stitching' techniques

I am told that method is one of the harder ways to repair stuff

[voltsandjolts]

I wonder how that kind of conduct would fly here in Australia. The law states "When a consumer buys a product, the manufacturer or importer must provide spare parts and repair facilities for a reasonable time after purchase. This applies even if the consumer did not buy the goods directly from the manufacturer or importer. This guarantee does not apply if the consumer is told at the time of purchase that repair facilities and spare parts will not be available after a certain time."

Considering the part is clearly available, but they are refusing to sell it, would that constitute a breach of consumer law? $7000+ for a simple plastic part does not seem very "reasonable" to me.

Some years ago now Keysight said FU to consumer customers and went B2B only, precisely to avoid having to conform to consumer laws like the above, and right to repair etc. They are now free to behave in the unfriendly manner described in this thread and others. But I would argue that goods sold prior to the policy change would still be covered by consumer law if sold to a consumer; perhaps that's why they ask for unit serial number - "oh, that dmm was sold to a business in 2002, so we are free so screw you". IDK.