General > General Technical Chat

I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

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magic:

--- Quote from: technix on May 25, 2019, 07:36:55 pm ---Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.

--- End quote ---
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?
Regarding EU I think it's wishful thinking on your side. North-west EU wants immigrants and actively invites them to travel thousands of kilometers to Europe, south-east blames the former rather than America for all problems related to immigrants.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 25, 2019, 09:34:00 pm ---Wow, that's a pretty skewed and self-centered view. I'm glad it is not common.

--- End quote ---
It surely is.


--- Quote from: blueskull on May 25, 2019, 10:00:29 pm ---Communism was the original social structure when people had to share resource to live. It was dated back to prehistory.
Modern communism proposed by the German is a challenge to capitalism, but the original concept was way before capitalism.

--- End quote ---
Communism has nothing to do with prehistoric resource sharing, it's a whole ideology of class struggle and oppression together with supposed solutions. No one in prehistory seriously considered religion "an opium for the masses" and money "a social construct to enslave the workers". It's a toxic ideology of bitter Westerners. And it would likely go nowhere if not for support of some German and American enemies of Russia, where it took its first root.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 25, 2019, 07:22:25 pm ---I share your low opinion of Trump and I disagree that tariffs are a good idea but, in any case, even if you think tariffs are a good idea, there are ways and there are ways to implement them.

Business needs stability and the ability to make plans and investments for the future. If you want to change the rules it should be done with plenty of warning, giving all parties time to prepare and adapt and not like in this case where it is just chaos and instability. This is just bad for business everywhere.

--- End quote ---
Tariffs are probably less radical than an outright ban.
I disagree that there has been no warning. It should have been obvious to anybody that exploitation of third world countries full of desperately poor people uprooted from their traditional life by a commie revolution is a bad idea in the long run. I was saying it for years, couldn't be the only one.
But nobody cared, plebs were getting their shipments of cheap goods, corporations were getting their money, globalists were getting their campaign donations and votes, third world plebs were getting their jobs and had no time to question the shitty regime, everybody was happy.
Trump stirring shit at least forces people to stop pretending that everything is OK. A minor miracle.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 07:51:19 am ---Rich countries polluted their way to riches. Working conditions were terrible, pollution was terrible but people chose to do that rather than remain in misery. But now we get on our high horse and righteously proclaim those who pollute or have harsh working conditions are bad people and we should not buy from them. We do not give them the choice that we gave ourselves between pollution and starvation. No, better they starve than they pollute.
--- End quote ---
No one behind Trump advocates for tariffs for the sake of environment protection. In fact, it's fashionable to believe that most environmental issues are overblown.
The point is protectionism. Not forcing domestic labor to compete with foreigners who don't give a fuck about ecology as that obviously leads to increased pollution and increased domestic unemployment.
Tariffs also increase prices and reduce irresponsible consumption, so I suppose even the greens should be on board.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 07:51:19 am ---In the meanwhile, back in the great U.S. of A. the president is busy dismantling environmental protection regulations because they hamper American businesses.
--- End quote ---
Western environmentalism has gone way too far, to the point that industry moves to other places where they can pollute much more than a reasonable compromise in the West would permit. Also workforce in those places is cheaper so they produce more than is needed, leading to the very overconsumption and disposable culture you just complained about.
Another thing that has been obvious for years.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 07:51:19 am ---So, where is the right balance? Does it have to be for everybody where America says it is?

--- End quote ---
America doesn't say anything consistent and they just made a 180° turn and hell knows what will happen in 2020 and 2024.
I think lots of your grievances with America stem from lumping together different fractions pushing in different directions without quite seeing who is who.

MT:
History lecture for the EEVBLOG's ignorant knowitalls!

rstofer:

--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 04:57:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: technix on May 25, 2019, 07:36:55 pm ---Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.

--- End quote ---
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?

--- End quote ---

Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?

It's that bet that is causing all the friction.

Maybe restricting their ability to trade will change their thinking but I doubt it.  They are totally committed to the idea of destroying Israel.


I don't want to see any US troops on the ground in the Middle East.

technix:

--- Quote from: rstofer on May 26, 2019, 06:15:29 pm ---There is no question they want to wipe out Israel.

--- End quote ---
This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.


--- Quote from: MT on May 26, 2019, 05:43:43 pm ---History lecture for the EEVBLOG's ignorant knowitalls!

*video removed*

--- End quote ---
[better source needed]

Source request aside, Chinese people are not allowed to forget the history of being colonized in early 20th century, and is mandated to remember it as a pain and a shame of the people. This is one thing you really should not rile up, as it can lead to a powder keg of nationalism in China.


--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 04:57:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: technix on May 25, 2019, 07:36:55 pm ---Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.

--- End quote ---
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?
Regarding EU I think it's wishful thinking on your side. North-west EU wants immigrants and actively invites them to travel thousands of kilometers to Europe, south-east blames the former rather than America for all problems related to immigrants.

--- End quote ---
He is on the track for that. While we see his voter base, other hidden forces are at play here.


--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 04:57:21 pm ---Trump stirring shit at least forces people to stop pretending that everything is OK. A minor miracle.

--- End quote ---
One thing commie powers is very good at is grabbing onto that power using whatever mean possible. We had tanks rolling over unarmed college students 30 years ago (do not mention the details beyond this note if you don't want EEVblog to be banned in China.) If you want change you have to do it in a more artful way, for example some deep level manipulation like what Putin is doing to the US.


--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 04:57:21 pm ---Tariffs also increase prices and reduce irresponsible consumption, so I suppose even the greens should be on board.

--- End quote ---
Tariffs means you get hungry poor. Those people is going to be a keg of powder waiting to riot. If you want to use tariff to reduce consumption you need some kind of safety net first to catch those people and keep them fed.

Actually a better way to reduce consumption is to increase the interest rate on savings, so people will pull money out of leisure purchase and save up instead, and the increase to loan interests will reduce the willingness of people to go into debt for leisure items. US have some of the world's lowest savings interest rate and you need to fix that.


--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 04:57:21 pm ---
--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 07:51:19 am ---In the meanwhile, back in the great U.S. of A. the president is busy dismantling environmental protection regulations because they hamper American businesses.
--- End quote ---
Western environmentalism has gone way too far, to the point that industry moves to other places where they can pollute much more than a reasonable compromise in the West would permit. Also workforce in those places is cheaper so they produce more than is needed, leading to the very overconsumption and disposable culture you just complained about.
Another thing that has been obvious for years.

--- End quote ---
Overconsumption is going to happen as long as people is not willing to save up, regardless of where pollution goes. Read above for the rest of the argument.

soldar:

--- Quote from: rstofer on May 26, 2019, 06:15:29 pm --- Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?
--- End quote ---

I guess that's one way of seeing things. Then there are facts.

For two centuries Great Britain and Russia occupied and colonized and competed for influence in the area that is now Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq as part of the so-called Great Game.

With the discovery of oil in the region in the early 20th century Great Britain and America established oil companies and political protectorates.

When in 1951 Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mosaddeq tried to nationalize the oil industry The USA and UK pressured the Shah to remove him. When popular revolts supported him he was reinstated by the Shah and in 1953 the USA organized a military  coup to overthrow the democratically elected government. Neat, huh?

Iran was ruled as an autocracy under the shah with American support from that time until the revolution. The Iranian government entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies which ran the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years splitting profits fifty-fifty with Iran but not allowing Iran to audit their accounts or have members on their board of directors. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. In 1961, Iran initiated a series of economic, social, agrarian and administrative reforms to modernize the country that became known as the Shah's White Revolution.  (Wikipedia)

The secret police supported by the USA tortured and killed dissidents and communist sympathizers. Those Iranians are so ungrateful to America!

In 1978 a popular movement in reaction to the Sha's rule overthrew the Sha. Since then America has done all it could to destabilize the country. It prodded Iraq into a war with Iran which cost both sides millions of dead. It has carried out terrorist covert operations inside Iran. America is truly a great threat to Iran and Iran feels the need to be able to defend itself and I don't blame them. Look what happened to Iraq or other countries without the capacity to defend themselves.

That part of the world would have enough problems without foreign powers intervening but the intervention of foreign countries because of the oil has doomed them. America has a hard-on for Iran. 

If I was Iran I would be working on getting the bomb pronto.

A fragile agreement was reached with Iran so they would stop developing nuclear weapons and America has unilaterally cancelled it. European nations are not happy at all about this. Because America is again messing in this part of the world and it will be Europe who will pay a high price.

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