General > General Technical Chat

I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.

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windsmurf:

--- Quote from: rstofer on May 26, 2019, 06:15:29 pm ---Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

--- End quote ---

So what would "square up" that deal?


--- Quote from: rstofer on May 26, 2019, 06:15:29 pm ---Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?
It's that bet that is causing all the friction.
Maybe restricting their ability to trade will change their thinking but I doubt it.  They are totally committed to the idea of destroying Israel.
I don't want to see any US troops on the ground in the Middle East.

--- End quote ---
 

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-does-iran-really-want-to-destroy-israel-1.6822030

apis:

--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 01:57:33 pm ---
--- Quote from: apis on May 26, 2019, 09:08:29 am --- I agree with much of what you wrote but at the same time it's sad to see China repeat the same mistakes that industrialised nations made in the past. They don't have to ruin the environment like we did, we have identified the problem and come up with solutions already. It's stupid not to use them more.
--- End quote ---

Who are we to tell them what they should do? Is the environment worth more than the lives of people? Where is the right balance?

--- End quote ---
That's a false dichotomy, it's not a choice between peoples lives or the environment, quite the contrary.

The hard earned lesson of the industrialised countries is that humans are not separate from the environment, were just one component in it. Poisoning the environment is poisoning ourselves. The Baltic sea is so poisonous now that no one wants to buy our fish anymore. Air pollution kill hundreds of thousands of people every year.

Although incredibly useful, the environment is valuable more than as a tool, life on earth might truly be unique in the universe. Other lifeforms have a right to exist alongside us humans, but we are driving everything else (and by extension ourselves) to extinction.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 01:57:33 pm ---China is fast developing solar and wind energy industries while America is trying to protect coal mining and while Americans continue to use more energy than anybody else in the world. Really, America is in no moral position to preach environmentalism.

--- End quote ---
The US, the Saudis and Russia have been blocking international attempts to deal with climate change. Sadly their leaders have been too heavily invested in fossil fuels. But climate change is only one of many environmental problems.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 01:57:33 pm ---Is America really so concerned with environmentalism in China? Why don't they send some money to help pay for the cost? How would that go down with the American electorate?

--- End quote ---
Obama actually put things on the right track (wrt Climate Change I mean), unfortunately (half) the US then blessed us with Trump.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 01:57:33 pm ---The ugly truth is that America is not concerned with the global environment. America and Americans are only concerned with trying to conserve and perpetuate their position of privilege even if at the cost of other peoples suffering.  And pretty much the same thing can be said about Europe but at least European countries are more understanding and do not preach like America does.

--- End quote ---
Americans isn't a homogeneous group, nor is Europeans or Asians. it's quite possible the majority wants change but their political system is failing them. The EU and the developing countries are actually the only ones who seems to care about about climate change so far. We mustn't forget history or deny the facts of the world but assigning blame isn't going to help much either. We need to deal with what is.

magic:

--- Quote from: rstofer on May 26, 2019, 06:15:29 pm ---Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?
--- End quote ---
They probably wouldn't use them against NATO unless in retaliation because that's suicide. But it would make any future wars against them difficult so it may be now or never.
The support for Palestinian terrorism is the reason why I check daily if Iran has been invaded yet, I never seriously expected it to happen with North Korea for example. When Trump campaigned on ending wars I believe he meant it and so did his voters.


--- Quote from: technix on May 26, 2019, 08:47:58 pm ---This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.
--- End quote ---
Of all the people in the world, your forefathers had something to do with it? ;)
No one made it a shared holy city, it was owned by various religions at various times and that's the outcome.

bsfeechannel:

--- Quote from: soldar on May 25, 2019, 10:14:29 pm ---
--- Quote ---"Asia is not going to be civilised after the methods of the West. There is too much Asia and she is too old."
- Rudyard Kipling
--- End quote ---

--- End quote ---

He'd have swallowed his words, had he lived long enough to see what Asia has become.


--- Quote from: blueskull on May 26, 2019, 01:48:31 am ---Who cares about Adam Smith? Who is he?
--- End quote ---

You don't know who Adam Smith is, yet you thanked a post that called my post ignorant. Would you like to revise your opinion?

Adam Smith is the guy whose ideas drive your economy. Now go do your homework in economics.


--- Quote ---Who cares about your definition of capitalism? What makes his definition accurate?
My economy teacher gave me a very clean, diluted definition of capitalism: use money to make money, which has been there for centuries.
--- End quote ---

Given your "liquid" definition, we could say that capitalism was invented in China by Peking Man.


--- Quote ---As I said, we have a lot of differences. Doing similar things doesn't mean the goals and the strategies are the same.
--- End quote ---

Don't get me started on China's "goals" and "strategies". You're not gonna like it.


--- Quote ---With the expression of Western supremacy and condescending on other cultures, yes.
--- End quote ---

Your complex of inferiority is getting in the way of your understanding. Get rid of that.


--- Quote from: technix on May 26, 2019, 05:09:30 am ---我固然可以写中文,但是你能看得懂吗?

--- End quote ---

You don't get it. We're not using Chinese as a lingua franca. My knowledge of Chinese is irrelevant. We are using English, which is a Western language.


--- Quote ---By the way, how do you feel about uprooting your life and move to three cities over?
--- End quote ---

Let's cut the crap. It is a commercial dispute. Raise your hand who hasn't been in a trade war against the US or any other nation. No big deal. But because one of the countries in the dispute is China, do we have to be lectured every time about "the imminent demise of the West and how China is going to mend all the defects of this decadent culture and lead the whole world to a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity"?

Gimme a break!

Other Asian nations have been equally successful as China is and they're less strident.

technix:

--- Quote from: magic on May 26, 2019, 10:52:47 pm ---
--- Quote from: technix on May 26, 2019, 08:47:58 pm ---This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.
--- End quote ---
Of all the people in the world, your forefathers had something to do with it? ;)
No one made it a shared holy city, it was owned by various religions at various times and that's the outcome.

--- End quote ---
I mean collectively all of us. Even China has a good portion of the country, however minority, being Muslims; and I myself am raised in a family with a Protestant backdrop.


--- Quote from: soldar on May 26, 2019, 08:53:27 pm ---I guess that's one way of seeing things. Then there are facts.

For two centuries Great Britain and Russia occupied and colonized and competed for influence in the area that is now Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq as part of the so-called Great Game.

With the discovery of oil in the region in the early 20th century Great Britain and America established oil companies and political protectorates.

When in 1951 Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mosaddeq tried to nationalize the oil industry The USA and UK pressured the Shah to remove him. When popular revolts supported him he was reinstated by the Shah and in 1953 the USA organized a military  coup to overthrow the democratically elected government. Neat, huh?

Iran was ruled as an autocracy under the shah with American support from that time until the revolution. The Iranian government entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies which ran the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years splitting profits fifty-fifty with Iran but not allowing Iran to audit their accounts or have members on their board of directors. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. In 1961, Iran initiated a series of economic, social, agrarian and administrative reforms to modernize the country that became known as the Shah's White Revolution.  (Wikipedia)

The secret police supported by the USA tortured and killed dissidents and communist sympathizers. Those Iranians are so ungrateful to America!

In 1978 a popular movement in reaction to the Sha's rule overthrew the Sha. Since then America has done all it could to destabilize the country. It prodded Iraq into a war with Iran which cost both sides millions of dead. It has carried out terrorist covert operations inside Iran. America is truly a great threat to Iran and Iran feels the need to be able to defend itself and I don't blame them. Look what happened to Iraq or other countries without the capacity to defend themselves.

That part of the world would have enough problems without foreign powers intervening but the intervention of foreign countries because of the oil has doomed them. America has a hard-on for Iran. 

If I was Iran I would be working on getting the bomb pronto.

A fragile agreement was reached with Iran so they would stop developing nuclear weapons and America has unilaterally cancelled it. European nations are not happy at all about this. Because America is again messing in this part of the world and it will be Europe who will pay a high price.

--- End quote ---
When the West trashed its collective credibility, no wonder people don't believe in you.


--- Quote from: bsfeechannel on May 27, 2019, 05:09:43 am ---Other Asian nations have been equally successful as China is and they're less strident.

--- End quote ---
Simple as: they have a government the West can control, and specifically for Japan and ROK US have military bases on their soil. Now only China and DPRK is resisting, so you want to destabilize it so you can install some form of pro-Western government.

Just admit that you are preaching neo-colonialism.

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