Author Topic: I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.  (Read 89760 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1667
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
Last time I checked, Adam Smith, the Father of Capitalism, was Scottish. I'm looking at his book, "The Wealth of Nations", right in front of me, while I write this.

Who cares about Adam Smith? Who is he? Who cares about your definition of capitalism? What makes his definition accurate?
My economy teacher gave me a very clean, diluted definition of capitalism: use money to make money, which has been there for centuries.
Capitalism/Communism is about who owns the means of production I think (i.e. if they are owned privately or communally). In theory you can combine a free market economy and communism, but the Soviet Union went with a centralised, planned economy for some reason.
I don't think we have well functioning free market economy in our modern capitalist societies either though, it's obvious by the fact that there are so many monopolies (or at least oligopolies) which is an example of a so called market failure and the worst of both worlds, but no one seems to care much.
I'm out of my depth here though, I don't know that much about political/economic theory.
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1667
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
I share your low opinion of Trump and I disagree that tariffs are a good idea but, in any case, even if you think tariffs are a good idea, there are ways and there are ways to implement them.
Well I'm not an economist and frankly most aspects of business and finances make my eyes glaze over so unlike Trump I'm not going to belligerently push to implement things I do not fully understand. It's just that on the surface they sound like a reasonable idea, a way to even out the playing field a bit given much of the reason China is able to be so competitive is that they are allowed to trash their environment and abuse the workers who do not enjoy nearly the standard of living or the protections those of us in many of the places buying these cheap goods have come to expect. Again though this is not my area of expertise so I'm not flat out saying I think they're a good idea, but I do feel the pinch of competing with people overseas who can live for a fraction of what it costs me and I'm frustrated by the race to the bottom with a lot of formerly good quality products being steadily cheapened to compete with low cost garbage.
Every country have tariffs unless you share the same market (like within the EU or the US) for all the reasons you mention. I believe it's commonly agreed that tariffs are a necessary evil.

That's what free trade agreements are superficially about, trying to agree on standards and subsidies that level the playing field so that the tariffs and bureaucracy can be minimalised. Personally I don't trust the "agreement" process of those free trade agreements thought. The bigger country (or the mulitnationals) are going to set the terms at the expense of the smaller countries (or the poor in either country). Once a free trade agreement is in place, the agreed upon standards are written in stone and will be very difficult and cumbersome to change, it will be very hard for a country to introduce new regulations without upsetting the trade balance (which will result in the country getting sued in special draconian arbitration courts that lack democratic oversight/legitimacy).

A trade war is when you start using tariffs for increasingly protectionstic reasons, it causes a negative spiral which hurts everyone. To use Wikipedia's definition:
"A trade war is an economic conflict resulting from extreme protectionism in which states raise or create tariffs or other trade barriers against each other in response to trade barriers created by the other party. Increased protection causes both nations' output compositions to move towards their autarky position."
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1667
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
China, as it gets richer, is already implementing pollution laws and will continue to do so as they get richer. Environmental laws are expensive and rich countries can afford them. But lecturing China on this is like lecturing the homeless beggar at the stoplight about showering every day. How is he supposed to do it?
I agree with much of what you wrote but at the same time it's sad to see China repeat the same mistakes that industrialised nations made in the past. They don't have to ruin the environment like we did, we have identified the problem and come up with solutions already. It's stupid not to use them more. And one has to ask who benefits from all the economic growth in China. Is it the people who work in the factories with suicide nets? The wealth-gap in China is much larger than the US.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2019, 10:55:01 am by apis »
 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
I believe American supremacy is waning fast and America is not adapting well to the new world order. America wants to remain "sole superpower" and can only do so militarily so there is danger of America disrupting things and using force. And all will be supported by very good ostensible reasons. Those with the wealth and the power have always found good support in the Bible or any other source of morality.
I really wish that the American supremacy don't go out with a bang literally, as it can take the whole humanity as we know it with it. China being one of the few countries that has proven nuclear force is a whole different beast than those countristan places whose nuclear capability is at beast an unproven one. As of late China has also rescinded the "no first use" nuclear weapon policy, so I have the fear that a war against China can go nuclear pretty quick.

Capitalism/Communism is about who owns the means of production I think (i.e. if they are owned privately or communally). In theory you can combine a free market economy and communism, but the Soviet Union went with a centralised, planned economy for some reason.
I don't think we have well functioning free market economy in our modern capitalist societies either though, it's obvious by the fact that there are so many monopolies (or at least oligopolies) which is an example of a so called market failure and the worst of both worlds, but no one seems to care much.
I'm out of my depth here though, I don't know that much about political/economic theory.
The Chinese system is currently a hybrid one.

State-owned enterprises forms a safety net in certain capital-intensive life-critical fields of business (e.g. infrastructure, power grid, telecommunication, banking, public transport etc.) They are actually designed not to be competitive in the market but as a provider of last resort, and there is no law banning private companies entering the field, however no private company is currently rich enough to take up the task nation-wide though since it is just too capital intensive. It is not unlike there aren't local attempts at those critical fields though and they can be successful if the owner is smart enough.

As of all other fields the current policy is to promote competitiveness among small players while a bit limiting on bigger ones - think this as a more aggressive form of antitrust law that prohibits not only a monopoly but also an oligopoly from forming. Just look at the example I used above - Huaqiang North SEG - instead of a market with 4 or 5 player Chinese government prefer a market with 1000+ players.

Better educated people will benefit all aspects of society I believe, it makes people smarter which means they make better choices on average.

I'm not sure it's the US falling back as much as China that has shifted up a gear or two. Creativity wise It's even worse here in Europe, if you are tinkering in your garage here, unless it's with an old car, people will look at you suspiciously. Lot of people doesn't like change. I don't really know what it's like in China, but China is huge and things are changing quickly. Maybe people there are more open new ideas, or maybe it's just the size (2.8 times as big population as EU), or maybe it's the rapid economic growth?
Ooh the environment though... The super short supply chain, cheap component prices and extreme fast turnaround time in Shenzhen really promotes experimentation and innovation at all levels. It is so easy and cheap to experiment with things, things rolls on an extremely fast pace, and failures don't hit the wallet too hard.

As of education, education is very cheap and heavily subsidized in China, at least for Chinese citizens. Primary education is free and mandatory, secondary education is very cheap - free in some cities even, as of higher education for an undergraduate engineering degree the yearly tuition is usually no more than US$1000, and postgraduate degrees are usually free again between all the national general scholarship and national academic scholarship. The standardized tests is heavily used in primary and secondary education to keep the quality of education high and uniform, so the difference between public and private schools differ little. Chinese companies pays a fairly hefty education tax to fund this, as if the companies are paying the government to train up their future employees for them.

Chinese government is also heavily subsidizing patent applications by college students, young people and small companies - up to 80% subsidized at a national level, likely as much at a local level if Shenzhen follows the Shanghai example, and those subsidization stacks, resulting in people only having to pay 4% of the full price if they want to apply for a patent.

I agree with much of what you wrote but at the same time it's sad to see China repeat the same mistakes that industrialised nations made in the past. They don't have to ruin the environment like we did, we have identified the problem and come up with solutions already. It's stupid not to use them. And one has to ask who benefits from all the economic growth in China. Is it the people who work in the factories with suicide nets? The wealth-gap in China is much larger than the US.
At least not until recently China can't afford those solutions though. China is implement such solutions at a breakneck pace though as soon as funds arrived. As of the wealth gap it is a global phenomenon and the fix is going to be global too.
 

Offline windsmurf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • !
  • Posts: 625
  • Country: us
... The wealth-gap in China is much larger than the US.

Not so, according to the GINI index.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1667
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
... The wealth-gap in China is much larger than the US.

Not so, according to the GINI index.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Hmm, yes, I think you're right. The income gap is similar, although I got it much more wrong since I was thinking about the wealth gap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth
 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
... The wealth-gap in China is much larger than the US.

Not so, according to the GINI index.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equality
Hmm, yes, I think you're right. The income gap is similar, although I got it much more wrong since I was thinking about the wealth gap:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_distribution_of_wealth
There are quite a bit of chances for people in China to suddenly get a huge lump sum of money shoved at them. For example when your current resident is to be torn down and redeveloped you get a lump sum compensation based on the current value of the land, and the developer is usually in a rush allowing you to negotiate the prices up quite a bit, resulting in families getting total compensations around the million US$ mark. And there is a lot of such redevelopment going on.
 

Offline SparkyFX

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 676
  • Country: de
The economy is capitalist: a Western invention.
Greed however is a human invention (ok, that might be arguable ... squirrels collect huge stashes, dogs eat as much as they can get, but not as exceedingly as humans can) and that contributed to many problems in practically every system. I don´t talk about the aquisition of wealth in itself, i mean doing it exploitatively (be it nature, resources, social securities, people).

The point is that anyone can explain his actions to be conform to any system, more or less applying a redefinition of what success means or if rules allowed them to do so - morally justified or not.

I think one positive part of capitalism as economic principle is therefore, that it makes this human characteristic the center of that problem and therefore allows it to be regulated in a more stable way - unless you want the free market to sort it out (which it usually does not, it incentivizes exploitation in the short run, the public has to pay for it in the long run; unstable, short term thinking is often preferred because of that).

But this is about trade between different systems and the question goes if a stable balance can only be upheld by exploitation.
Support your local planet.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
But this is about trade between different systems and the question goes if a stable balance can only be upheld by exploitation.
Upholding trade using exploitation is colonialism.
 

Offline soldar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Country: es
I agree with much of what you wrote but at the same time it's sad to see China repeat the same mistakes that industrialised nations made in the past. They don't have to ruin the environment like we did, we have identified the problem and come up with solutions already. It's stupid not to use them more.

Who are we to tell them what they should do? Is the environment worth more than the lives of people? Where is the right balance?

China is fast developing solar and wind energy industries while America is trying to protect coal mining and while Americans continue to use more energy than anybody else in the world. Really, America is in no moral position to preach environmentalism.

Is America really so concerned with environmentalism in China? Why don't they send some money to help pay for the cost? How would that go down with the American electorate?

The ugly truth is that America is not concerned with the global environment. America and Americans are only concerned with trying to conserve and perpetuate their position of privilege even if at the cost of other peoples suffering.  And pretty much the same thing can be said about Europe but at least European countries are more understanding and do not preach like America does.
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7453
  • Country: pl
Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?
Regarding EU I think it's wishful thinking on your side. North-west EU wants immigrants and actively invites them to travel thousands of kilometers to Europe, south-east blames the former rather than America for all problems related to immigrants.

Wow, that's a pretty skewed and self-centered view. I'm glad it is not common.
It surely is.

Communism was the original social structure when people had to share resource to live. It was dated back to prehistory.
Modern communism proposed by the German is a challenge to capitalism, but the original concept was way before capitalism.
Communism has nothing to do with prehistoric resource sharing, it's a whole ideology of class struggle and oppression together with supposed solutions. No one in prehistory seriously considered religion "an opium for the masses" and money "a social construct to enslave the workers". It's a toxic ideology of bitter Westerners. And it would likely go nowhere if not for support of some German and American enemies of Russia, where it took its first root.

I share your low opinion of Trump and I disagree that tariffs are a good idea but, in any case, even if you think tariffs are a good idea, there are ways and there are ways to implement them.

Business needs stability and the ability to make plans and investments for the future. If you want to change the rules it should be done with plenty of warning, giving all parties time to prepare and adapt and not like in this case where it is just chaos and instability. This is just bad for business everywhere.
Tariffs are probably less radical than an outright ban.
I disagree that there has been no warning. It should have been obvious to anybody that exploitation of third world countries full of desperately poor people uprooted from their traditional life by a commie revolution is a bad idea in the long run. I was saying it for years, couldn't be the only one.
But nobody cared, plebs were getting their shipments of cheap goods, corporations were getting their money, globalists were getting their campaign donations and votes, third world plebs were getting their jobs and had no time to question the shitty regime, everybody was happy.
Trump stirring shit at least forces people to stop pretending that everything is OK. A minor miracle.

Rich countries polluted their way to riches. Working conditions were terrible, pollution was terrible but people chose to do that rather than remain in misery. But now we get on our high horse and righteously proclaim those who pollute or have harsh working conditions are bad people and we should not buy from them. We do not give them the choice that we gave ourselves between pollution and starvation. No, better they starve than they pollute.
No one behind Trump advocates for tariffs for the sake of environment protection. In fact, it's fashionable to believe that most environmental issues are overblown.
The point is protectionism. Not forcing domestic labor to compete with foreigners who don't give a fuck about ecology as that obviously leads to increased pollution and increased domestic unemployment.
Tariffs also increase prices and reduce irresponsible consumption, so I suppose even the greens should be on board.

In the meanwhile, back in the great U.S. of A. the president is busy dismantling environmental protection regulations because they hamper American businesses.
Western environmentalism has gone way too far, to the point that industry moves to other places where they can pollute much more than a reasonable compromise in the West would permit. Also workforce in those places is cheaper so they produce more than is needed, leading to the very overconsumption and disposable culture you just complained about.
Another thing that has been obvious for years.

So, where is the right balance? Does it have to be for everybody where America says it is?
America doesn't say anything consistent and they just made a 180° turn and hell knows what will happen in 2020 and 2024.
I think lots of your grievances with America stem from lumping together different fractions pushing in different directions without quite seeing who is who.
 

Offline MT

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1687
  • Country: aq
History lecture for the EEVBLOG's ignorant knowitalls!

 
The following users thanked this post: bsfeechannel

Offline rstofer

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 9963
  • Country: us
Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?

Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?

It's that bet that is causing all the friction.

Maybe restricting their ability to trade will change their thinking but I doubt it.  They are totally committed to the idea of destroying Israel.


I don't want to see any US troops on the ground in the Middle East.

 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
There is no question they want to wipe out Israel.
This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.

History lecture for the EEVBLOG's ignorant knowitalls!

*video removed*
[better source needed]

Source request aside, Chinese people are not allowed to forget the history of being colonized in early 20th century, and is mandated to remember it as a pain and a shame of the people. This is one thing you really should not rile up, as it can lead to a powder keg of nationalism in China.

Speaking of, the whole war on Iran is going to earn Trump even more ire from EU. EU is already having trouble to stomach all the refugees from North Africa amid chaos there. For Iranian citizens trying to take flight it is most likely that they will also try to take refuge in EU, further worsening the refugee problem there.
If a war happens. I don't understand why some people insist that Trump wants a war with Iran to boost his PR when his "America first" crowd hates him for it. What kind of voters in America even support further wars in the Middle East at this point?
Regarding EU I think it's wishful thinking on your side. North-west EU wants immigrants and actively invites them to travel thousands of kilometers to Europe, south-east blames the former rather than America for all problems related to immigrants.
He is on the track for that. While we see his voter base, other hidden forces are at play here.

Trump stirring shit at least forces people to stop pretending that everything is OK. A minor miracle.
One thing commie powers is very good at is grabbing onto that power using whatever mean possible. We had tanks rolling over unarmed college students 30 years ago (do not mention the details beyond this note if you don't want EEVblog to be banned in China.) If you want change you have to do it in a more artful way, for example some deep level manipulation like what Putin is doing to the US.

Tariffs also increase prices and reduce irresponsible consumption, so I suppose even the greens should be on board.
Tariffs means you get hungry poor. Those people is going to be a keg of powder waiting to riot. If you want to use tariff to reduce consumption you need some kind of safety net first to catch those people and keep them fed.

Actually a better way to reduce consumption is to increase the interest rate on savings, so people will pull money out of leisure purchase and save up instead, and the increase to loan interests will reduce the willingness of people to go into debt for leisure items. US have some of the world's lowest savings interest rate and you need to fix that.

In the meanwhile, back in the great U.S. of A. the president is busy dismantling environmental protection regulations because they hamper American businesses.
Western environmentalism has gone way too far, to the point that industry moves to other places where they can pollute much more than a reasonable compromise in the West would permit. Also workforce in those places is cheaper so they produce more than is needed, leading to the very overconsumption and disposable culture you just complained about.
Another thing that has been obvious for years.
Overconsumption is going to happen as long as people is not willing to save up, regardless of where pollution goes. Read above for the rest of the argument.
 

Offline soldar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Country: es
Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?

I guess that's one way of seeing things. Then there are facts.

For two centuries Great Britain and Russia occupied and colonized and competed for influence in the area that is now Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq as part of the so-called Great Game.

With the discovery of oil in the region in the early 20th century Great Britain and America established oil companies and political protectorates.

When in 1951 Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mosaddeq tried to nationalize the oil industry The USA and UK pressured the Shah to remove him. When popular revolts supported him he was reinstated by the Shah and in 1953 the USA organized a military  coup to overthrow the democratically elected government. Neat, huh?

Iran was ruled as an autocracy under the shah with American support from that time until the revolution. The Iranian government entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies which ran the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years splitting profits fifty-fifty with Iran but not allowing Iran to audit their accounts or have members on their board of directors. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. In 1961, Iran initiated a series of economic, social, agrarian and administrative reforms to modernize the country that became known as the Shah's White Revolution.  (Wikipedia)

The secret police supported by the USA tortured and killed dissidents and communist sympathizers. Those Iranians are so ungrateful to America!

In 1978 a popular movement in reaction to the Sha's rule overthrew the Sha. Since then America has done all it could to destabilize the country. It prodded Iraq into a war with Iran which cost both sides millions of dead. It has carried out terrorist covert operations inside Iran. America is truly a great threat to Iran and Iran feels the need to be able to defend itself and I don't blame them. Look what happened to Iraq or other countries without the capacity to defend themselves.

That part of the world would have enough problems without foreign powers intervening but the intervention of foreign countries because of the oil has doomed them. America has a hard-on for Iran. 

If I was Iran I would be working on getting the bomb pronto.

A fragile agreement was reached with Iran so they would stop developing nuclear weapons and America has unilaterally cancelled it. European nations are not happy at all about this. Because America is again messing in this part of the world and it will be Europe who will pay a high price.
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 
The following users thanked this post: apis

Offline windsmurf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • !
  • Posts: 625
  • Country: us
Maybe the ones who remember when Iranian students seized American citizens from the US Embassy and held them for over a year.  Maybe the ones who remember how little Jimmy Carter did to get them back. We're still not square on that deal:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_hostage_crisis

So what would "square up" that deal?

Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?
It's that bet that is causing all the friction.
Maybe restricting their ability to trade will change their thinking but I doubt it.  They are totally committed to the idea of destroying Israel.
I don't want to see any US troops on the ground in the Middle East.
 

https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/.premium-does-iran-really-want-to-destroy-israel-1.6822030
 

Offline apis

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1667
  • Country: se
  • Hobbyist
I agree with much of what you wrote but at the same time it's sad to see China repeat the same mistakes that industrialised nations made in the past. They don't have to ruin the environment like we did, we have identified the problem and come up with solutions already. It's stupid not to use them more.

Who are we to tell them what they should do? Is the environment worth more than the lives of people? Where is the right balance?
That's a false dichotomy, it's not a choice between peoples lives or the environment, quite the contrary.

The hard earned lesson of the industrialised countries is that humans are not separate from the environment, were just one component in it. Poisoning the environment is poisoning ourselves. The Baltic sea is so poisonous now that no one wants to buy our fish anymore. Air pollution kill hundreds of thousands of people every year.

Although incredibly useful, the environment is valuable more than as a tool, life on earth might truly be unique in the universe. Other lifeforms have a right to exist alongside us humans, but we are driving everything else (and by extension ourselves) to extinction.

China is fast developing solar and wind energy industries while America is trying to protect coal mining and while Americans continue to use more energy than anybody else in the world. Really, America is in no moral position to preach environmentalism.
The US, the Saudis and Russia have been blocking international attempts to deal with climate change. Sadly their leaders have been too heavily invested in fossil fuels. But climate change is only one of many environmental problems.

Is America really so concerned with environmentalism in China? Why don't they send some money to help pay for the cost? How would that go down with the American electorate?
Obama actually put things on the right track (wrt Climate Change I mean), unfortunately (half) the US then blessed us with Trump.

The ugly truth is that America is not concerned with the global environment. America and Americans are only concerned with trying to conserve and perpetuate their position of privilege even if at the cost of other peoples suffering.  And pretty much the same thing can be said about Europe but at least European countries are more understanding and do not preach like America does.
Americans isn't a homogeneous group, nor is Europeans or Asians. it's quite possible the majority wants change but their political system is failing them. The EU and the developing countries are actually the only ones who seems to care about about climate change so far. We mustn't forget history or deny the facts of the world but assigning blame isn't going to help much either. We need to deal with what is.
 

Offline magic

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7453
  • Country: pl
Iran exports a lot of stress in the region.  There is no question they want to wipe out Israel, they tell us every day, and, sooner or later, something is going to come unglued.  They are doing their very best to get nuclear weapons.  Anybody want to take a bet on whether they would use them?
They probably wouldn't use them against NATO unless in retaliation because that's suicide. But it would make any future wars against them difficult so it may be now or never.
The support for Palestinian terrorism is the reason why I check daily if Iran has been invaded yet, I never seriously expected it to happen with North Korea for example. When Trump campaigned on ending wars I believe he meant it and so did his voters.

This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.
Of all the people in the world, your forefathers had something to do with it? ;)
No one made it a shared holy city, it was owned by various religions at various times and that's the outcome.
 

Offline bsfeechannel

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1668
  • Country: 00
Quote
"Asia is not going to be civilised after the methods of the West. There is too much Asia and she is too old."
- Rudyard Kipling

He'd have swallowed his words, had he lived long enough to see what Asia has become.

Who cares about Adam Smith? Who is he?

You don't know who Adam Smith is, yet you thanked a post that called my post ignorant. Would you like to revise your opinion?

Adam Smith is the guy whose ideas drive your economy. Now go do your homework in economics.

Quote
Who cares about your definition of capitalism? What makes his definition accurate?
My economy teacher gave me a very clean, diluted definition of capitalism: use money to make money, which has been there for centuries.

Given your "liquid" definition, we could say that capitalism was invented in China by Peking Man.

Quote
As I said, we have a lot of differences. Doing similar things doesn't mean the goals and the strategies are the same.

Don't get me started on China's "goals" and "strategies". You're not gonna like it.

Quote
With the expression of Western supremacy and condescending on other cultures, yes.

Your complex of inferiority is getting in the way of your understanding. Get rid of that.

我固然可以写中文,但是你能看得懂吗?

You don't get it. We're not using Chinese as a lingua franca. My knowledge of Chinese is irrelevant. We are using English, which is a Western language.

Quote
By the way, how do you feel about uprooting your life and move to three cities over?

Let's cut the crap. It is a commercial dispute. Raise your hand who hasn't been in a trade war against the US or any other nation. No big deal. But because one of the countries in the dispute is China, do we have to be lectured every time about "the imminent demise of the West and how China is going to mend all the defects of this decadent culture and lead the whole world to a time of unprecedented peace and prosperity"?

Gimme a break!

Other Asian nations have been equally successful as China is and they're less strident.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
This is us now paying for the debts our forefathers left behind when they made the single city a shared holy city for so many conflicting religion.
Of all the people in the world, your forefathers had something to do with it? ;)
No one made it a shared holy city, it was owned by various religions at various times and that's the outcome.
I mean collectively all of us. Even China has a good portion of the country, however minority, being Muslims; and I myself am raised in a family with a Protestant backdrop.

I guess that's one way of seeing things. Then there are facts.

For two centuries Great Britain and Russia occupied and colonized and competed for influence in the area that is now Afghanistan, Iran and Iraq as part of the so-called Great Game.

With the discovery of oil in the region in the early 20th century Great Britain and America established oil companies and political protectorates.

When in 1951 Iran's democratically elected prime minister Mosaddeq tried to nationalize the oil industry The USA and UK pressured the Shah to remove him. When popular revolts supported him he was reinstated by the Shah and in 1953 the USA organized a military  coup to overthrow the democratically elected government. Neat, huh?

Iran was ruled as an autocracy under the shah with American support from that time until the revolution. The Iranian government entered into agreement with an international consortium of foreign companies which ran the Iranian oil facilities for the next 25 years splitting profits fifty-fifty with Iran but not allowing Iran to audit their accounts or have members on their board of directors. In 1957 martial law was ended after 16 years and Iran became closer to the West, joining the Baghdad Pact and receiving military and economic aid from the US. In 1961, Iran initiated a series of economic, social, agrarian and administrative reforms to modernize the country that became known as the Shah's White Revolution.  (Wikipedia)

The secret police supported by the USA tortured and killed dissidents and communist sympathizers. Those Iranians are so ungrateful to America!

In 1978 a popular movement in reaction to the Sha's rule overthrew the Sha. Since then America has done all it could to destabilize the country. It prodded Iraq into a war with Iran which cost both sides millions of dead. It has carried out terrorist covert operations inside Iran. America is truly a great threat to Iran and Iran feels the need to be able to defend itself and I don't blame them. Look what happened to Iraq or other countries without the capacity to defend themselves.

That part of the world would have enough problems without foreign powers intervening but the intervention of foreign countries because of the oil has doomed them. America has a hard-on for Iran. 

If I was Iran I would be working on getting the bomb pronto.

A fragile agreement was reached with Iran so they would stop developing nuclear weapons and America has unilaterally cancelled it. European nations are not happy at all about this. Because America is again messing in this part of the world and it will be Europe who will pay a high price.
When the West trashed its collective credibility, no wonder people don't believe in you.

Other Asian nations have been equally successful as China is and they're less strident.
Simple as: they have a government the West can control, and specifically for Japan and ROK US have military bases on their soil. Now only China and DPRK is resisting, so you want to destabilize it so you can install some form of pro-Western government.

Just admit that you are preaching neo-colonialism.
 

Offline maginnovision

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1966
  • Country: us
<bullshit snipped to keep sanity>

I would quit discussion with you, because I've already expressed whatever I needed to express, and I've already earned enough Chinese social credit points for that.

This might be off topic, but how DOES the social credit work. I've read a couple articles but I have no idea what's true or if any of it is complete.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3508
  • Country: cn
  • From Shanghai With Love
    • My Untitled Blog
This might be off topic, but how DOES the social credit work. I've read a couple articles but I have no idea what's true or if any of it is complete.
Basically a state-run version of Equifax under People's Back of China. There are some private sector collaborators like Alibaba but they are under close monitoring.
 
The following users thanked this post: maginnovision

Offline windsmurf

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • !
  • Posts: 625
  • Country: us
This might be off topic, but how DOES the social credit work. I've read a couple articles but I have no idea what's true or if any of it is complete.
Basically a state-run version of Equifax under People's Back of China. There are some private sector collaborators like Alibaba but they are under close monitoring.

Do sellers run people's social credit score when customers want to purchase a car, for example?  Who adds data to it, and who gets to see it?  Can one appeal something in their social score?

 

Offline kaz911

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1052
  • Country: gb


I do think that China needs a slap on the wrist. There are so many things going on from China government that are, at least to soft westerners, very morally corrupt (according to the Western moral compass)

1. Cheap huge loans to countries for infrastructure and prestige projects in 2nd/3rd world countries. Very organised by China - give loans that China knows the receiving country cant pay back ever - secured against the country’s mining rights etc. Build it all with Chinese workers - many of whom are then left behind when construction is done. Some African countries now have a quite large “left over” population of Chinese construction workers that China did not want back.  So in effect China rules a lot of countries by “Debt Default”

2. Stealing of Western IP - still happens all the time. Very organised. How many arrests have there been just this year? How many western company representatives have been arrested in China for industrial spying? So if China does all the base research themselves how come there are so many industrial spies caught (which is probably a minuscule amount compared to what goes through undetected) - so a big help here would be if China would respect and sign up for Worldwide IP protection regulations.

3. Chinese education policy - Chinese government rewards citizens for going abroad, get (highly) educated and work. But citizens have to return to China when requested. Returning to China and setting up a business then gets a good bucket of Chinese Government funds for the western educated Chinese citizen.  It is very very organised - and Citizens gets a choice of educations they can do to get the financial support. It is very smart way of getting top education for your citizens and transfer knowledge to China.

It is much more detailed than what I write but I have plenty of local friends from China who when drunk :) talks a lot.... Most of them actually like their lives in the UK and are worried about the day they will get “recalled” and have to uproot their current life. But they signed up for it - so they have no choice.

The 3 items mention are just examples of how planned and smart the Chinese government is. The plans are clearly long term (many decades - not years)

But if the west do not realize or start reacting to it - then most of the current “1st world” western world will be 3rd world within 20-40 years.
 
——-

And regarding big Chinese Telco supplier  - they are as crooked as they come. Normal modus operandi for telco offerings is the big Western companies quote - said Chinese Telco then bribes someone for a copy of the tenders - and post an offer that is exactly 50% less than the current lowest provider.  They would even sell HP Telco switches for 50% of what price HP could offer direct. HP’s answer was there was they thought there wore subsidies from somewhere.

And Said Telco actively copy western telco devices - so good copies that you in some cases can run same firmware on either device (I have setup a few MVNO’s and the amount of pressure Chinese Telco puts on you to get access to see “western providers” solutions are incredible) - so in the last MVNO I setup we terminated all contact with the said telco supplier - despite being a lot cheaper.

—-

I’m not taking any sides on the argument - i’m a realist. China is smart and thinks further ahead than most western countries are currently capable of. And that capacity for planning needs respect - But the western world needs to start to take action to survive.

So we can either adopt the Chinese moral compass or try to level the playing field in some other way. Adopting a different moral compass is not easy.

And right now Trump is trying to level the playing field in one area. But as any business person would do - you if you opposition is very far to the right - your demands should be equally far to the left. And then one can hope that negations will end up with a trade deal somewhere in the middle.

Europe is currently just to soft and idealistic to realise what is going on. 
 

Offline soldar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3595
  • Country: es
That western countries would dictate any moral issues is just plain laughable.  It is merely propaganda for home use but has no weight whatsoever anywhere else. The western powers who raped and looted half the world talking about morality? Don't make me laugh!

America is in no position to preach to China about anything. Any American claims about wanting what is best for the Chinese people ring very hollow.  Similarly to the Anglo-American intervention in Iran/Iraq/Afghanistan, their interventions in China have left a bad aftertaste there and I can understand why.

For a couple centuries western powers invaded China and imposed their unequal treaties. Travel in China and you will find memorial markers "here on such date British troops fired and killed X many Chinese".

Mark Twain protested against the Americans invading and occupying China and the Philippines.

When WWII happened China was mired in a long running civil war but both sides united to fight the Japanese.  The Communists were the stronger side but America was helping the Kuomingtang and did not want the Japanese surrendering to the Communists so they stalled while they could help the Kuomingtang troops take over parts that were in possession of the Communists.

After the Japanese were defeated and expelled the civil war continued with America on the Kuomingtang's side. The Kuomingtang was defeated in the mainland and retreated to Taiwan with all the loot they could take.

American intervention in China prolongued the civil war.

The "Taiwan problem" is entirely of American creation. If it were not for America Taiwan today would be a province of China.
All my posts are made with 100% recycled electrons and bare traces of grey matter.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf