Author Topic: I have the feeling that the whole trade war starts from a pile of nonsense.  (Read 89756 times)

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Offline JPortici

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The Euro is an example of a multi-national currency and it is a disaster for some of the countries.  Germany holds the exchange rate for the Euro at a high level and Italy can't devalue it to make their products competitive.  This problem gets worse year over year.  Countries need to be able to set their own exchange rate (or allow the market to set it for them) if they are to be competitive.  There are quite a few countries in the EU that would gladly scrap the Euro.

Yeah no thanks. Despite what some politicians say we (working people) don't want € to go away. Us being able to devalue the money is the exact reason we are in the situation that we are in.. The fact that we haven't been able to catch up is NOT because of europe, but because we have been abusing a system that let our public debt become so massive that we can't ever repay it... except maybe in 40 years when all those who abused the system in the 80s-00s and are currently sucking at the state tits are dead. If anything, europe and euro came too late. i want Monti to come back. he is still the hero we need.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

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I’m not taking any sides on the argument - i’m a realist. China is smart and thinks further ahead than most western countries are currently capable of. And that capacity for planning needs respect - But the western world needs to start to take action to survive.
It is not whether the west that can make long term plans, it is whether the west can stick to a plan after it is made across political shifts. Take Obamacare for an example, the second Republicans took power they start to dismantle it. With this kind of political aggression in place, why bother with long term plans when they ain't gonna stick after an election?

For a couple centuries western powers invaded China and imposed their unequal treaties.
And yet Trump want another one, on top of the bad aftertaste of the ones of last two centuries.

The "Taiwan problem" is entirely of American creation. If it were not for America Taiwan today would be a province of China.
Going back to the topic of this thread, US is whining and pushing and kicking about a problem it manufactured itself.
 

Offline apis

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the west
"The west" is a not a good term. It's like saying "the east" when talking about China. Similarly, talking about Europe is like talking about America, Asia or Africa, it's huge places composed of many very different countries.
 

Offline technixTopic starter

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the west
"The west" is a not a good term. It's like saying "the east" when talking about China. Similarly, talking about Europe is like talking about America, Asia or Africa, it's huge places composed of many very different countries.
I have to admit it not being a good term - it is correct only within the Eurasian continent - but at least it is a lot softer than terms like "countries under white rule" (too racist.) And since people agree on what is geopolitical "west" and what is geopolitical "east" (along with its subdivisions "near east," "middle east" and "far east") and those terms are generally regarded as neutral universally, the terms somehow stuck.

And since we are having the superpower and one of the potential superpowers locked in a conflict, most other countries becomes somewhat irrelevant unless they are organized into something of power at a similar scale. (Yes I do mean that at a conflict of this scale it is more likely than not that only US, EU as a whole, Russia and China matter. Hey that is the five permanent seats of the UN Security Council - US, Russia, China, and EU represented by the seats of UK and France.)
 

Offline soldar

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"The west" is a not a good term. It's like saying "the east" when talking about China. Similarly, talking about Europe is like talking about America, Asia or Africa, it's huge places composed of many very different countries.
I disagree. It is a very useful term when discussing European cultures (and their descendants) with respect to China. The fact that they are different in some ways is not relevant when we are discussing precisely the aspects they share.
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Offline apis

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"The west" is a not a good term. It's like saying "the east" when talking about China. Similarly, talking about Europe is like talking about America, Asia or Africa, it's huge places composed of many very different countries.
I disagree. It is a very useful term when discussing European cultures (and their descendants) with respect to China. The fact that they are different in some ways is not relevant when we are discussing precisely the aspects they share.
It's an oversimplification. It's like clumping together China, Mongolia, Korea, Japan, Vietnam, Laos and so on. Or why not the Chinese Communist Party and the Nationalist Party of China. Of "western" countries it's only the US that want conflict with Iran. Similarly most western countries were against the Irak war (with some notable exceptions), and it has caused nothing but problems for Europe. Germany started WW2 but not exactly together with "the west" against China, that would be a bisarre interpretation, it was Germany, Italy and Japan against the rest of the world. As everyone knows the US joined the war when they were attacked by the Japanese. Trump is starting trade wars with everyone; Canada, Mexico, the EU, and now China. It's not "the west" that is starting a trade war with "the east". It's Trump against the World.

The notion you should split Eurasia into Europe and Asia is also silly, it's basically a christian idea that divides the continent between christians and non-christians but there have always been a mix of culture and trade across the continent. Remember the silk road? Similarly, northern Africa is culturally and historically closer to Europe than Africa south of the Sahara (because the Sahara is a much bigger obstacle than the Mediterranean), but today we have this mental division because of the difference of religion.

We even learn Chinese in school these days (as third language after Swedish and English). 你好,我来自瑞典. ^-^
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:06:15 pm by apis »
 
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Offline soldar

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I have quite an interest in history and have read quite a bit about history of China and I was just reading something and it struck me that I had never really known something which I now have read about and find interesting.

When the communists took over the Kuomingtang retreated to the islands of Hainan and Taiwan. But the island of Hainan was taken by the communists a few months later in 1950.

I have been to Hainan a couple of times and for me it is like the Florida of China but I had never given any thought as to how it had been taken by the communists during (after) the war.  And why the communists chose to fight for Hainan but not for Taiwan. Probably the Kuomingtang (and America) felt they could not defend Hainan but could better defend Taiwan.

I wonder if the communists could have taken Taiwan if they had set themselves to it.

Hainan, for those who are too young to remember, was where an American spy plane collided with a Chinese plane and was forced to land in the capital, Haikou where the Americans were forced to eat Chinese food for several days until the were finally freed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hainan_Island_incident

Correction. Even though my thoughts were correct I got my names mixed up. The capital, Haikou, in in the north of the island. I was thinking of Sanya in the south. The American airplane landed in Lingshui military air base, near Sanya.

Sorry for the digression but I have fond memories of Hainan.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 03:06:29 pm by soldar »
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Offline magic

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Actually a better way to reduce consumption is to increase the interest rate on savings, so people will pull money out of leisure purchase and save up instead, and the increase to loan interests will reduce the willingness of people to go into debt for leisure items. US have some of the world's lowest savings interest rate and you need to fix that.
Maybe they have low interest rates but it seems to me like it's just kicking the can down the road: people save in order to buy something, and now they will have more money to spend. So either inflation or market growth and more consumption. Perhaps another war to force some African country to accept the excess USD for their oil ;)
Basically, it looks like you say there is a problem because US produces too much USD and you want to solve it by producing more USD.

European nations are not happy at all about this. Because America is again messing in this part of the world and it will be Europe who will pay a high price.
If you are speaking of migration, speak for yourself. Germany says they need a quarter million immigrants per year for half of this century to meet their economic growth targets.
I guess France and UK ought to be happy too. In fact, it was France that rushed to overthrow Muammar Gaddafi before NATO and USA, even though he threatened that his regime is the last thing preventing massive undocumented migration from Africa to Europe. Clearly that didn't stop them.

The 3 items mention are just examples of how planned and smart the Chinese government is. The plans are clearly long term (many decades - not years)

I’m not taking any sides on the argument - i’m a realist. China is smart and thinks further ahead than most western countries are currently capable of. And that capacity for planning needs respect - But the western world needs to start to take action to survive.
Western democracy is completely retarded, voters have no clue what's going on in the world and get distracted by bullshit nonissues, politicians only look forward to the next election and the only agents with any long term strategy are companies, think tanks, lobbying groups, millionaires and secret services, all of which obviously operate in confidentiality and don't coordinate with each other.

That western countries would dictate any moral issues is just plain laughable.
That Western countries would build dependence on communist regimes is laughable.

When WWII happened China was mired in a long running civil war but both sides united to fight the Japanese.  The Communists were the stronger side but America was helping the Kuomingtang and did not want the Japanese surrendering to the Communists so they stalled while they could help the Kuomingtang troops take over parts that were in possession of the Communists.

After the Japanese were defeated and expelled the civil war continued with America on the Kuomingtang's side. The Kuomingtang was defeated in the mainland and retreated to Taiwan with all the loot they could take.

American intervention in China prolongued the civil war.

The "Taiwan problem" is entirely of American creation. If it were not for America Taiwan today would be a province of China.
They only thing they did wrong was losing this war.
And of course communists too were supported by various shady interests from the Soviet Union and US.
Communism in China killed more people in time of peace than the civil war and world war 2 combined. Probably set their industry back a few decades too because why not. Same happened in Eastern Europe, Cambodia and likely everywhere communism was attempted. Communists should be nuked from the orbit wherever they appear.
I don't think there is a "Taiwan problem". Taiwan seem to be happy with their independence and more developed than mainland China.

It is not whether the west that can make long term plans, it is whether the west can stick to a plan after it is made across political shifts. Take Obamacare for an example, the second Republicans took power they start to dismantle it. With this kind of political aggression in place, why bother with long term plans when they ain't gonna stick after an election?
This is democracy in action.
As is well known, democracy is a system where two men and one woman strangled on a desert island can hold a legally binding vote over legalization of rape.
Or a system where whoever gets 60% seats in the parliament enjoys total power for four years and pushes reforms rejected by 40% of society not expecting the balance to flip later.
Democrats in America got so used to success that under Obama they weren't even trying to maintain any consensus. They were so confident that they themselves reduced the vote threshold for Supreme Court confirmations so that it doesn't hold their progress back, of course we know the outcome.
America is actually a highly entertaining country if you live somewhere where their politics don't have that much influence on your land.
You guys should be striving for independence from US and thank Trump for warning you.
And live under no illusion that the EU is any different. The leadership is exactly equally "democratic" and arrogant. The EU is heading for a disaster.
 
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Offline apis

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This is democracy in action.
As is well known, democracy is a system where two men and one woman strangled on a desert island can hold a legally binding vote over legalization of rape.
Which is still better than one man deciding to legalise rape all by himself. As is well known, democ­ra­cy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those oth­er forms that have been tried from time to time.

Poland just haven't had democracy for very long. If you couldn't live in Poland, which country of your neighbours would you prefer to live in, Belarus or Germany? Or maybe Saudi Arabia where their lovely "strong man" leader sends his team of hitmen to murder people he dislike and mail him their body-parts in separate packages?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:13:25 pm by apis »
 

Offline BravoV

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CNN just posted a "opinionated" column by a professor from Columbia University, which I think reflect the true current situation.  :-+

-> China is not the source of our economic problems -- corporate greed is
 
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Online Marco

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Quote
China has roughly followed the same development strategy as Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Singapore before it. From an economic standpoint, it is not doing anything particularly unusual for a country that is playing catch up.

None of those are a security threat to the US. Singapore and Hong Kong because they are tiny, Taiwan because it's desperate for allies and Korea and Japan are military vassals. Behaviour the US might have accepted from them are put in a different light with a country which is trying to compete with the US for regional power and is using soft power to annex natural resources.

The amount of technology theft by China is also on a whole different level AFAICS.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 05:10:54 pm by Marco »
 

Offline BravoV

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The amount of technology theft by China is also on a whole different level AFAICS.

So what ? This is just few decades, and also for US perspective.

From your country perpective and you as a Dutch, looking at your flag.

Remember how Dutch empire thru VOC pillaged, sucked, robbed resources at one of the south east asia country for almost 3.5 centuries, yep, not decades, but centuries. The whole Dutch glory and great civilazation that you are enjoying is basically built based on stolen resources from somepart of the world elsewhere, similar to few European contries that did colonization in the past, dont you agree ?

Still you will say exactly like me ... "So what ?" ... :-DD .. yeah, quite embarassing isnt it ?  >:D

Offline apis

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Copying isn't theft. The whole notion of IP is flawed and what is happening now is a perfect illustration of this.
 

Offline BravoV

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Copying isn't theft. The whole notion of IP is flawed and what is happening now is a perfect illustration of this.

The wet dream of, utilizing the IP as a new form of colonization, like saying to others ... you lowly creature, work hard, build & manufacture this commodity, but pay me the IP cost .. forever while I'm enjoying my life and filthy rich forever ... this is not realistic, and sustainable, especially across countries for long term.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 06:12:35 pm by BravoV »
 
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Offline BravoV

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... <snip>  examples of how planned and smart the Chinese government is. The plans are clearly long term (many decades - not years)

But if the west do not realize or start reacting to it - then most of the current “1st world” western world will be 3rd world within 20-40 years.
 
... <snip> ... China is smart and thinks further ahead than most western countries are currently capable of. And that capacity for planning needs respect - But the western world needs to start to take action to survive.

The word "authoritarian" is always seen as evil and nothing good at all, actually everything has two sides of a coin.

Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.

Its like fighting to tame a voltage regulation (electronics speaks) that has heavy fluctuations, one or two cycles of the control loop sometimes is not enough, and worst, change the control loop in the middle of the road :palm:, really believe some of you probably agree on me using this analogy.

At the end, it is the "stable and expected" voltage regulation that matter, for long term.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 07:21:12 pm by BravoV »
 

Offline technixTopic starter

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Western democracy is completely retarded, voters have no clue what's going on in the world and get distracted by bullshit nonissues, politicians only look forward to the next election and the only agents with any long term strategy are companies, think tanks, lobbying groups, millionaires and secret services, all of which obviously operate in confidentiality and don't coordinate with each other.
In order for those megacorporations, think tanks, lobbying groups, millionaires and secret services to assert their power, they need to keep the general citizen distracted, uneducated and clueless. Now we have a Catch-22 to solve.

That Western countries would build dependence on communist regimes is laughable.
Is China communist at its core after 1980 though? From what I see while the slogan of socialism and communism is still recited, the actual governing system is largely a capitalist system with a nonpartisan, center-right government that can largely keep its words, along with a functioning social safety net that guarantees everyone a roof over their heads and freedom from hunger.

Communism in China killed more people in time of peace than the civil war and world war 2 combined. Probably set their industry back a few decades too because why not. Same happened in Eastern Europe, Cambodia and likely everywhere communism was attempted. Communists should be nuked from the orbit wherever they appear.
That is why communism was abandoned in a top-down fashion with the exception of the name, when people managed to cool down from the political frenzy and the honchos had some cold hard thinking. You don't usually get revolutionary changes if it happened top-down. In Poland you had Solidarity that shook the system, so while it did pan out top-down it is still a bottom-up process, just peacefully.

As of your comment immediately following this line, I am legally barred from quoting it under the Anti-Secession Law of China, a law that includes a pre-authorization of military action should Taiwan perform any of the enumerated actions. Also it is factually false if you go through the data.

This is democracy in action.
As is well known, democracy is a system where two men and one woman strangled on a desert island can hold a legally binding vote over legalization of rape.
Or a system where whoever gets 60% seats in the parliament enjoys total power for four years and pushes reforms rejected by 40% of society not expecting the balance to flip later.
That means you have a fracture in your society, which will require talks sooner or later, or see the society fall apart, either into separate entities, or worse into a civil war.

None of those are a security threat to the US.
China have never thought of threatening the US until US decided to treat China as a threat and start stirring up s**t in western Pacific. Don't step on the dragon's tail and you don't get flames blown at your face.

The amount of technology theft by China is also on a whole different level AFAICS.
Is it theft, or did it Chinese companies buy them using their hard earned cash and/or provided the specified service you required? Once again you signed the deal that sold the technology with a hot head back then, and you regret it by now. Also if you are really that concerned you should have applied for patents/registered the copyright in China along with other places. SIPO works and thanks to recent policies it is cheap and available online. All you need is an Internet connection and a Chinese IP lawyer.

The wet dream of, utilizing the IP as a new form of colonization, like saying to others ... you lowly creature, work hard, build & manufacture this commodity, but pay me the IP cost .. forever while I'm enjoying my life and filthy rich forever ... this is not realistic, and sustainable, especially across countries for long term.
That kind of use of IP is abuse. Even some Americans can not sit well with that.

Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.
China has a 2 millennia long history of continuous autocratic rule, during which a well established technocracy/meritocracy system is formed specifically to select the leaders that has a sincere, good and noble vision for oneself, the community, the country and the world (修身,齐家,治国,平天下) and we invented standardized tests as a measurement of the candidates, assuming the tests are not corrupt. This process is generally still upheld even to this day although a modernized test is used, as a way of selecting all public servants.
 

Offline apis

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Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.

Its like fighting to tame a voltage regulation (electronics speaks) that has heavy fluctuations, one or two cycles of the control loop sometimes is not enough, really believe some of you probably agree on me using this analogy.

At the end, it is the "stable and expected" voltage regulation that matter, for long term.
Ah, the good old philosopher king (or more recently enlightened absolutism) idea, it's not new and history shows it's wishful thinking.

Even remotely benevolent dictators are few and far between. Even if you get lucky and have a good leader you will have to replace him/her eventually because people change, get sick and die. So you have the problem with electing a new leader anyway (the oldest son::) :palm:), odds are you won't get lucky the next time.

It's not like authoritarian dictatorship is a new idea, it used to be the norm here (like everywhere). It was those old authoritarian leaders that thought colonialism was a good idea, and the world wars too for that matter. Democracy (re)emerged after centuries of struggle and disaster after disaster.

In democracy the people get to decide whether to keep or replace the "dictator" at regular intervals. (Maybe 4 years is too often though.) This gives the people some protection from the bad leaders. Take the US for example, Trump can be president for at most 8 years then he has to go, so the amount of damage he can do to the country (and the world) is limited, the people will even have the chance to replace him already next year. There are also other systems in a democracy that limits the damage one bad person can do (i.e. separation of powers). All this is actually quite complicated and a science in itself.

If you like the voltage regulator analogy then dictatorship is like voltage regulation without feedback, while democracy is voltage regulation with negative feedback (elections) and other checks and balances. As an engineer I'm sure you realise which is most stable.

That Western countries would build dependence on communist regimes is laughable.
Is China communist at its core after 1980 though? From what I see while the slogan of socialism and communism is still recited, the actual governing system is largely a capitalist system with a nonpartisan, center-right government that can largely keep its words, along with a functioning social safety net that guarantees everyone a roof over their heads and freedom from hunger.
"Four legs good, two legs better."

China has a 2 millennia long history of continuous autocratic rule, during which a well established technocracy/meritocracy system is formed specifically to select the leaders that has a sincere, good and noble vision for oneself, the community, the country and the world (修身,齐家,治国,平天下) and we invented standardized tests as a measurement of the candidates, assuming the tests are not corrupt. This process is generally still upheld even to this day although a modernized test is used, as a way of selecting all public servants.
:bullshit:
China had emperors and aristocracy that waged war and oppressed the people just like Europe.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:05:53 pm by apis »
 

Offline technixTopic starter

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Ah, the good old philosopher king (or more recently enlightened absolutism) idea, it's not new and history shows it's wishful thinking.
China never really had a democracy and it is not really in the culture to be honest, and in the millennia Chinese people installed a technocracy/meritocracy system to approach the philosopher king scenario. Maybe instead of panning on each other, we should learn from each other somehow, for example merging the democratic process of selecting a leader using a vote with the technocratic/meritocratic process of selecting the candidates using standardized tests and profession matching.

"Four legs good, two legs better."
Do you mind elaborate on it?

:bullshit:
China had emperors and aristocracy that waged war and oppressed the people just like Europe.
And they are usually overthrown in civil unrests pretty swiftly. Chinese history has a lot of episodes of civil riots when aristocracy went bad.

Here is a thing: historically Chinese people really, REALLY don't want to move far - 父母在不远游, because that is where the farmlands are and without those you are starving. So if the aristocracy went bad the choice is usually revolt and maybe live through it or leave and starve to a certain death. This is also why Chinese isn't that big on freedom of movement as it is not in the culture.

Chinese have been farming since prehistoric times, and the culture is continuous since, so there are a lot of really ancient stull stuff remained in the culture. An example will be that quote from above, it is from Analects which dates back to 5th century BCE, and it is taught right now in 21st century Chinese high schools - in fact it is required for a high school student to be able to understand almost any book written since ~8th century BCE in China, and there is a list of poems and texts written during 5th century BCE and 18th century CE students must memorize.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 08:26:12 pm by technix »
 

Offline soldar

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"Four legs good, two legs better."
Do you mind elaborate on it?
It is a reference to Orwell's Animal Farm. You would need to have read Animal Farm to get the meaning.


I am always amused by how strongly people will defend that western-style democracy is the only valid form of government. It is a fanaticism like few others. This in spite that western style democracy has only worked well in countries that have a culture of... western-style democracy!

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.

I concede Americans the privilege of governing as they see fit and I would concede the same to every other nation.

The notion that we know better than them is just imperialism plain and simple. Just leave people alone. And if you really feel the need to fix things you can start by fixing your own country because, it does not matter what country it is, there is much that needs fixing.
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Offline Mr. Scram

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It is a reference to Orwell's Animal Farm. You would need to have read Animal Farm to get the meaning.


I am always amused by how strongly people will defend that western-style democracy is the only valid form of government. It is a fanaticism like few others. This in spite that western style democracy has only worked well in countries that have a culture of... western-style democracy!

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.

I concede Americans the privilege of governing as they see fit and I would concede the same to every other nation.

The notion that we know better than them is just imperialism plain and simple. Just leave people alone. And if you really feel the need to fix things you can start by fixing your own country because, it does not matter what country it is, there is much that needs fixing.
You seem content to fanatically defend China's approach instead, even though we already established it's not leaving other people be either. None of the global powers will.
 

Offline apis

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Ah, the good old philosopher king (or more recently enlightened absolutism) idea, it's not new and history shows it's wishful thinking.
China never really had a democracy and it is not really in the culture to be honest, and in the millennia Chinese people installed a technocracy/meritocracy system to approach the philosopher king scenario. Maybe instead of panning on each other, we should learn from each other somehow, for example merging the democratic process of selecting a leader using a vote with the technocratic/meritocratic process of selecting the candidates using standardized tests and profession matching.
I know very little about what happens inside the CCP, because it doesn't allow independent observers or journalists. But it seemed like the CCP had some sort of internal democratic process when electing leaders after Mao, is that the meritocratic process you refer to? China has experienced amazing economic growth in recent years and that is good of course, so whatever China has been doing can't be that bad.

There is room for improvement everywhere, in our democratic systems as well, for sure, but going back to authoritarian dictatorship would be throwing out centuries of hard earned progress.

"Four legs good, two legs better."
Do you mind elaborate on it?
It's a quote from the Animal Farm.

:bullshit:
China had emperors and aristocracy that waged war and oppressed the people just like Europe.
And they are usually overthrown in civil unrests pretty swiftly. Chinese history has a lot of episodes of civil riots when aristocracy went bad.

Here is a thing: historically Chinese people really, REALLY don't want to move far - 父母在不远游, because that is where the farmlands are and without those you are starving. So if the aristocracy went bad the choice is usually revolt and maybe live through it or leave and starve to a certain death. This is also why Chinese isn't that big on freedom of movement as it is not in the culture.

Chinese have been farming since prehistoric times, and the culture is continuous since, so there are a lot of really ancient stull stuff remained in the culture. An example will be that quote from above, it is from Analects which dates back to 5th century BCE, and it is taught right now in 21st century Chinese high schools - in fact it is required for a high school student to be able to understand almost any book written since ~8th century BCE in China, and there is a list of poems and texts written during 5th century BCE and 18th century CE students must memorize.
That is interesting. Most of Europe is also old farmland except for Scandinavia which is too far north. China is very big though, I would imagine all kinds of peoples and regions have existed there. And culture isn't static, things and people change. I'm not so sure people here and there are so different.

I am always amused by how strongly people will defend that western-style democracy is the only valid form of government. It is a fanaticism like few others. This in spite that western style democracy has only worked well in countries that have a culture of... western-style democracy!
Maybe because we have tried the alternatives. I don't think it's good to impose democracy on other countries either, the change would have to come from within. If the people doesn't understand it and want it it's not going to work anyway.

And America, which never stops preaching western style democracy has been busy for decades overthrowing popularly elected governments and installing dictatorships in their place. And nobody seems to even recognize the contradiction.
Yes that is a travesty.

The notion that we know better than them is just imperialism plain and simple. Just leave people alone. And if you really feel the need to fix things you can start by fixing your own country because, it does not matter what country it is, there is much that needs fixing.
It's wrong to be a hypocrite of course, but just ignoring everything else that's going on is making it too easy for oneself.
 

Offline windsmurf

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CNN just posted a "opinionated" column by a professor from Columbia University, which I think reflect the true current situation.  :-+

-> China is not the source of our economic problems -- corporate greed is

I think this echos the stance of the progressive liberals, Bernie Sanders, etc. 

But one thing the article gets wrong... there's no such thing as corporate greed.  There's only greed of persons who run corporations (and greed of investors with profit as the only motive). 

Corporations in Germany are now run with input from the supervisory board which include employee representatives.   Employees are no longer just "labor" to be exploited.  This system seems to be working well for them. 

« Last Edit: May 27, 2019, 11:39:06 pm by windsmurf »
 

Offline magic

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Poland just haven't had democracy for very long.
If only you knew.
Read this and scroll down to "decline". You have it all: consolidation of power by magnates, bribery, even literal Russian collusion ;)
That republic was destroyed in the 18th century by, you guessed it, neighbor monarchies.
I don't mind living in a free country, but it's not a silver bullet. And the West is too emotionally attached to democracy, to the point that your politicians have no respect for you and treat you like children because they know you wouldn't dare to threaten them with some little revolution or a bit of anarchy.

If you couldn't live in Poland, which country of your neighbours would you prefer to live in, Belarus or Germany?
Probably Slovakia, not a big fan of German radicalism (including their devotion to European integration) and Belarus I will pass to our communism fanboys ;)
Why not some sensible authoritarian states like Singapore or Vatican?

That means you have a fracture in your society, which will require talks sooner or later, or see the society fall apart, either into separate entities, or worse into a civil war.
Indeed, America has their culture war, EU is a bunch of vastly different nations shoved under one government increasingly asserting its centralized power. Things are crazy.
 

Offline windsmurf

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...The Kuomingtang was defeated in the mainland and retreated to Taiwan with all the loot they could take...

The "Taiwan problem" is entirely of American creation. If it were not for America Taiwan today would be a province of China.

What loot did they take?
Why is Taiwan a problem? 
 

Offline BravoV

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The word "authoritarian" is always seen as evil and nothing good at all, actually everything has two sides of a coin.

Authoritarian has good side is which is persistency, as IF (a big "IF" I know) that the leader has a sincere,good and noble vision for the country's interest in long term, this it self will beat the hell out so called pure "democracy", as this democracy makes it very hard to maintain the country's direction, as the whole realm in the country is constantly dragged into the fight of the change at every election period, or good example referendum like Brexit which is divided the whole country into pieces.

Its like fighting to tame a voltage regulation (electronics speaks) that has heavy fluctuations, one or two cycles of the control loop sometimes is not enough, really believe some of you probably agree on me using this analogy.

At the end, it is the "stable and expected" voltage regulation that matter, for long term.

In democracy the people get to decide whether to keep or replace the "dictator" at regular intervals. (Maybe 4 years is too often though.) This gives the people some protection from the bad leaders. Take the US for example, Trump can be president for at most 8 years then he has to go, so the amount of damage he can do to the country (and the world) is limited, the people will even have the chance to replace him already next year. There are also other systems in a democracy that limits the damage one bad person can do (i.e. separation of powers). All this is actually quite complicated and a science in itself.

If you like the voltage regulator analogy then dictatorship is like voltage regulation without feedback, while democracy is voltage regulation with negative feedback (elections) and other checks and balances. As an engineer I'm sure you realise which is most stable.

That is exactly my point, sometimes at certain period or by the nature of people/cultural & etc, the suitable power source is not a periodic switching regulator as in power switching, the struggle riding the ups and downs maintaining voltage regulation, and the case we're seeing is the struggle maintaining a low ripple as it constantly hard swing e.g.: left wing <-> right wing leadership in the struggling control loop.

A simple battery power source, "good & strong" battery, like in those olde day battery powered flash light than runs without any feedback at all, and runs until starting to dimm, and then initiate the the battery replacement process. Of course, this is the critical part, it seems like the method/process of choosing a good & strong "battery" (read:leader) in China is already quite matured, stable and proven, as we've never seen a bloody power struggle during the transition period, or country great divisions because of that battery replacement process it self.

Of course, as I mentioned, everything has two sides of a coin.


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